New partnership

Q&A and discussion about Synastry, i.e., relationship analysis through the comparison of two horoscopes.
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Avshalom Binyamin
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New partnership

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:09 pm

I am in a new romantic relationship, and I am curious about the synastry. It's been, frankly, pretty amazing.

Me
Date: October 8, 1980
Time: 12:00noon
Place: El Cajon, CA

Her
Date: January 22, 1982
Time: 3:51pm
Place: Mountain View, CA

Does anyone have any insights? I'm frankly overwhelmed looking at all the aspects and am having a hard time figuring out what to focus on.

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Jim Eshelman
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Re: New partnership

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:32 pm

I'm going to assume that of the three Mountain Views in California, this is the best known, the one in Santa Clara County.

I sensed a Moon-Mars interchange from your post, and I was right. The only warning this requires is that initial intensity has to be maintained or you get in trouble. The aspect gives the choice of "sex or strife" (one might say, "f... or fight"). It burns hot, and has to stay hot. (To this, in the '70s, I applied Kilgore Trout quote to the effect that time ends all things, including immortal love.)

Quick first impressions:

Her Moon squares your Moon. Her Mars conjoins your Sun and Moon. Her Jupiter conjoin your Mercury. Strong simpatico, fierce ten-alarm fire sexual attraction, great strength to be able to be comrades-at-arms as well, and ... ah, new topic... she likes, supports, and praises your words and how you think.

Your Jupiter (and, lesser, Saturn) is on her IC. Your Moon and Sun conjoin her Mars. Your Mercury conjoins her Jupiter. Oh, and your Sun closely squares her Asc. This is pretty positive in several ways, reiterating the flip view of it, and also showing what looks more like business partner capacity (all the spin-off things that would support that, and could also help other relationships).Oh, and your Venus exactly squares her Uranus, which opens wide lots or erotic doors and possibilities. Fagan used to say that this marks romances while travelling; what I'm sure he meant was opportunistic romances. Again, the dynamic requires that things be kept new and unfolding and varying - hitting a stretch of boredom *er, let's say, "less excitement") is the foe.


Getting more detailed, viewing as if transits:

Her birth seen as an "event" in your life:
t Neptune sq. r Jupiter 19'
t Neptune oct. r Mercury 19' [midpoint 0']
t Uranus sq. r Venus 44'
t Saturn conj. r Pluto 43'
t Mars conj. r Sun 54'

This isn't quite as one-sided hot-and-bothered as the first aff. Frankly, it suggests something is being withheld from you to your detriment. I suggest you read the transits one by one to draw your conclusions on what kind of event this would be - I'm rushing to get out the door (and out of the state) and don't want my haste to mislead.

Flipping this around, we get your birth seen as an "event" in her life:

t Pluto conj. r Saturn 43'
t Jupiter sq. r Neptune 19'
t Sun conj. r Mars 54'
t Venus sq. r Uranus 44'
t Mercury oct. r Neptune 19'

This is a different feel. You kinda rock her world. This may mean you shake her security on first impression, but your presence fundamentally soothes that anxiety, gives her a sense that her worst anxieties can relax. You stir strength and a sense of variety and adventure in her.

This is very fast, my friend. Please catch my mistakes and read through the interpretations yourself, maybe using this layout as a guide. I'm quite happy to hear you so excited. Your new SSR (you're still in Portland, yes?) has an exact Venus-Pluto mundane square minutes from the angles - basically, it means divorce, eloping, or both! Intense, dramatic shifts in relationships mark the new year. Since the angular Venus is closely conjunct your Jupiter, this may be one of those wedding moments! A Sun-Mercury conjunction squares Ascendant, which alerts me that your new SSR angles are nearly identical to her natal angles.
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Re: New partnership

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:04 pm

Thank you for your reply!
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:32 pm
Santa Clara County
Correct.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:32 pm
initial intensity has to be maintained or you get in trouble
I can see that. I would say that the sexual connection is probably a relationship cornerstone, for better or worse.

The other comments seem spot on. I experience the relationship as an intense sexual connection, but also a practical, business-like partnering with lots of autonomy.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:32 pm
t Neptune sq. r Jupiter 19'
t Neptune oct. r Mercury 19' [midpoint 0']
t Uranus sq. r Venus 44'
t Saturn conj. r Pluto 43'
t Mars conj. r Sun 54'

This isn't quite as one-sided hot-and-bothered as the first aff. Frankly, it suggests something is being withheld from you to your detriment. I suggest you read the transits one by one to draw your conclusions on what kind of event this would be - I'm rushing to get out the door (and out of the state) and don't want my haste to mislead.
Interesting. In general, I've been the slow, patient one about the emotional pace of this relationship, and she's been more eager and impatient.

Neptune/Jupiter: I perceive her as a bit of a hustler, working a plan and an angle at any given point. I like that about her, but I do also have trust issues, and worry about being taken advantage of.

Neptune/Mercury: I experience reality with her as being more dreamlike and symbolic. I feel like an absent-minded professor around her--a bit bumbling and forgetful.

Uranus/Venus: lots of experimentation/variety. Little jealousy or off-limit ideas (we're both polyamorous and kinky).

Saturn/Pluto: I like the independence when we're not together, but I notice I do have to work to share my feelings so that I'm not distancing myself.

Mars/Sun: We tend to want to do it all, egg each other on, etc.

In short, I have ambivalent feelings sometimes. I'm not used to meeting my sexual equal. And as a divorced dad who is poly/kinky, I didn't expect to meet someone who would be compatible on both sides of those pretty different life arenas.

But then my commitment and trust issues have me squeezing the brakes about moving too quick to mingle our domestic or financial lives.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:32 pm
Your new SSR (you're still in Portland, yes?) has an exact Venus-Pluto mundane square minutes from the angles - basically, it means divorce, eloping, or both! Intense, dramatic shifts in relationships mark the new year. Since the angular Venus is closely conjunct your Jupiter, this may be one of those wedding moments! A Sun-Mercury conjunction squares Ascendant, which alerts me that your new SSR angles are nearly identical to her natal angles.
Yes, still in Portland.

But I don't want to get married again!! I feel like I'm barely divorced. :lol:

We are going to a wedding October 28, where I will be a member of the bridal party, and my new Tango Trio will be debuting as wedding entertainment. Maybe that's the symbolism?

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Re: New partnership

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:53 pm

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:04 pm
We are going to a wedding October 28, where I will be a member of the bridal party, and my new Tango Trio will be debuting as wedding entertainment. Maybe that's the symbolism?
I doubt it. This is far more personal than that. (Sure, debuting a music group can be an expression, but it's not the big expression.)
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Jupiter Sets at Dawn
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Re: New partnership

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:06 am

Venus conj Jupiter has other meanings besides just "wedding." It just suggests a happy, productive and prosperous time for you. Maybe you get your confidence in relationships back.

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Re: New partnership

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:12 pm

Ah, well, that one burned hot and fast.

Miscommunications started popping up pretty quickly, and arguments escalated in frequency and intensity. I started to notice some pretty dysfunctional conflict behaviors, and this week when I stood by a boundary about escalating language during arguments she blew up and dumped me over text.

:roll:

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Re: New partnership

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:54 pm

Sorry to hear that, my friend.

Moon-Mars. It's all Moon-Mars. Whether glory or gory, it's ALL Moon-Mars. :)

Time ends all things, including immortal love.
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Re: New partnership

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:58 pm

Thank you.

Yes, it was more intense than I generally care for. Thanks to Nuit for another experience to learn from.

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Re: New partnership

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:44 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:54 pm
Moon-Mars. It's all Moon-Mars. Whether glory or gory, it's ALL Moon-Mars.

Time ends all things, including immortal love.
Would you say that a relationship is quite doomed in general when having this interchange both ways? Have you seen examples of a lifetime where this aspect is working out nicely and beneficial? Perhaps in combination with other beneficial aspects only?

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Re: New partnership

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:33 am

FlorencedeZ. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:44 am
Would you say that a relationship is quite doomed in general when having this interchange both ways? Have you seen examples of a lifetime where this aspect is working out nicely and beneficial? Perhaps in combination with other beneficial aspects only?
I know of no example of a close Moon-Mars conjunction, opposition, or square interchange that has been permanent. I wouldn't, howeve,call them doomed - that word implies that a relationship only succeeds if it's long-term. Moon-Mars relationships serve by how hot they burn, not how long they burn.

I quite intentionally used the word "glory" (in contrast to "gorey") above. While there surely are some less pleasant Moon-Mars examples, most of them leave no major regrets. Often there are short-term regrets in the immediate aftermath (the breakups can be scathing). but it has always seemed to that, even in the roughest and most tumultuous of rides, the feeling is that it one one hell of a ride, a glorious ride, a momumental intensity of experience.

In theory, it is possible to keep these going forever, but that would require keeping the intensity at the high level - and ever pushing for more - for years. That's hard, and might be impossible. Once it falls off, only the irritants remain, with either party (b ut especially the Mars party) continuing to push for the same kind of emotional response from the other. At that point, it doesn't matter what the response is: A hurtful emotional response is as good as a pleasant one, and nothing leaves them feeling more abandoned, alone, and even craving (much like a drug addiction) than getting too little emotion from the other.
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Re: New partnership

Post by Danica » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:36 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:33 am
FlorencedeZ. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:44 am
Would you say that a relationship is quite doomed in general when having this interchange both ways? Have you seen examples of a lifetime where this aspect is working out nicely and beneficial? Perhaps in combination with other beneficial aspects only?
I know of no example of a close Moon-Mars conjunction, opposition, or square interchange that has been permanent. I wouldn't, howeve,call them doomed - that word implies that a relationship only succeeds if it's long-term. Moon-Mars relationships serve by how hot they burn, not how long they burn.

I quite intentionally used the word "glory" (in contrast to "gorey") above. While there surely are some less pleasant Moon-Mars examples, most of them leave no major regrets. Often there are short-term regrets in the immediate aftermath (the breakups can be scathing). but it has always seemed to that, even in the roughest and most tumultuous of rides, the feeling is that it one one hell of a ride, a glorious ride, a momumental intensity of experience.

In theory, it is possible to keep these going forever, but that would require keeping the intensity at the high level - and ever pushing for more - for years. That's hard, and might be impossible. Once it falls off, only the irritants remain, with either party (b ut especially the Mars party) continuing to push for the same kind of emotional response from the other. At that point, it doesn't matter what the response is: A hurtful emotional response is as good as a pleasant one, and nothing leaves them feeling more abandoned, alone, and even craving (much like a drug addiction) than getting too little emotion from the other.
I have a case of a long term relationship with Moon- Mars interchange: my own relationship with my husband.
Jim, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on our synastry.
His data: 11/14/1980 5:40 PM Kraljevo, Serbia (CET -1:00)
Should I open another thread?
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Re: New partnership

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:38 am

Once it falls off, only the irritants remain, with either party (b ut especially the Mars party) continuing to push for the same kind of emotional response from the other. At that point, it doesn't matter what the response is: A hurtful emotional response is as good as a pleasant one, and nothing leaves them feeling more abandoned, alone, and even craving (much like a drug addiction) than getting too little emotion from the other.
Yes. This to a T.

When fights get muddy/confused/emotional, they feel unsafe to me, and my tendency is to de-escalate and de-emotionalize. Hers is the opposite. So when we disagreed she perceived me as cold/calculating/unsafe, and I perceived her as escalating/manipulative. So it was a no-win feedback loop.

I think a person would really have to like the emotional intensity of a high-conflict on-again-off-again romance to last longer than me.

And yes, in retrospect, I have no *major* regrets. The breakup was sudden and hurtful, but the bottom line is that I stood up for my own self-respect and I didn't make any major life sacrifices in the 5 months of our brief relationship. And there were good points. The sexual intensity and freedom was unique.

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Re: New partnership

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:05 am

Danica wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:36 am
I have a case of a long term relationship with Moon- Mars interchange: my own relationship with my husband.
Jim, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on our synastry.
His data: 11/14/1980 5:40 PM Kraljevo, Serbia (CET -1:00)
Should I open another thread?
If it goes more than a round or two, or takes on an independent direction, then yes, new thread. But let's run with it here for the moment.

First pass, just focusing on two benefics, two malefics, and two luminaries...

The polarized Sun-signs is always interesting and not necessarily easy. The Suns aren't actually in aspect, so the distinctive ego-conflicts from that aren't in play, but we have to acknowledge that the two of you face the universe in some similar ways (Rim, and the Aries-Libra axis commonalities in general), and the projection barrage is probably a basic characteristic. (Most people have difficulty accepting that the opposite Sun-sign has a right to be on this planet <g> - partly from unconscious recognition of similarities, partly from antithetical psychic choices.)

His Moon squares your Mars closely. His Sun opposes your Mercury closely. Neither his Venus nor his Mars, and neither his Jupiter nor his Saturn, makes a significant standout contact with your chart, though I think we have to consider his Jupiter (in particular) is not far from your MC. So, all of this together, besides the Moon-Mars passion and other traits, these are not usual marriage aspects, though they do speak of curiosity and respect from him toward you.

Flipping it around... your planets on his chart... the first thing I notice is that your Venus-Jupiter is not too far from his horizon. (Have you checked this against the mundoscope spreadsheet? I'm curious how close his Venus-Jupiter is mundanely to your horizon. I suspect its fairly close, and this shows enormous affection and generosity from you toward him.) Ah, the Sun-Mercury is bidirectional (your Sun to his Mercury also). Your Mars squares his Moon, of course, and your Saturn's conjunction with his Mercury is both wider and background, so the main factors are your Venus-Jupiter to him and your Mars to his Moon. Much the same as above, therefore, with more grace and softening from the Venus-Jupiter.

OK, I have to go off and check that Venus-Jupiter.

(Returning from checking...)

Your Venus is 7°22' above his Ascendant, your Jupiter 5°31' below his Descendant, and your Uranus 7°08' below his Descendant. This is easily close enough for what I was seeing. What intrigues me, though, is that, in the framework of his chart, your Venus-Uranus opposition is the strongest aspect (only 0°14' wide). He gets the whole of the Venus-Jupiter-Uranus anyway, partly because this is how you are in the word (it's on your own angles) and partly because it's all foreground in his chart; but, when with him, you are Venus-Uranus joined by Jupiter, rather than Venus-Jupiter joined by Uranus. This might be significant, e.g., indicating greater mutual independence and stronger resources for keeping things renewed. (This isn't the whole answer, but it's part of it.)


Now, let's switch to seeing each of your charts as transits to the other...

His planets as transits to your chart give:

t Pluto -45- r Uranus -33'
t Saturn -135- r Mercury -35'
-- t Sun -180- r Mercury +36'

Frankly, this isn't a very good interchange. It certainly challenges you with new experiences and major life-change, but doesn't seem to show you being listened to or your ideas valued. There are some other aspects just outside partile orb (e.g., his Venus semi-square your Moon; one might even consider his 21' trine of Moon to your Venus) but the base message is... challenging, even barricaded.

Treating your chart as transits to his natal brings the same aspects but from the opposite point of view:

t Uranus -45- r Pluto +33'
t Mercury -135- r Saturn +35'
-- t Mercury -180- r Sun -36'

It's not different enough to warrant separate comment.


So... it actually doesn't look very good, at least by most people's standards. Obviously, if I'd given you this reading as the relationship started, I'd have missed the mark, since you've been together a while. It is true that you've had some significant struggles to come through, and have bad a lot of life-reinvention to come through, but I would 't even target this as a good business relationship;, let alone a marriage. The only indication that you are even friends is that you find each other curious enigmas, that there is mutual respect offered, and that you are particularly inclined to be gracious and kind toward him.

So, maybe there is something being missed here.

Or, maybe (you're in the place to know if this is actually so), this does describe the relationship in ways that are outside convention, i.e., the facts fit but what the mean is not what we normally accept. For example, perhaps there is indeed this kind of struggle that has been absorbed by confronting hardship together (and only will flare into real trouble when the shared hardship subsides). Or maybe the two of you are quite inclined to struggle and you do this well. Or there is so much independence and even separateness in the relationship that the above actually describes it.

I'm not sure - but, as you requested, there's what I see.


PS - For Chino, with your Mars exactly culminating, this gives the helpful aspect of is Moon exactly square your local MC. (You both have non-stop malefics on your own angles for Chino.)
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Re: New partnership

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:18 am

(If it's a factor here, I'm fine with this thread being about Moon-Mars synastry--it was the first observation in the thread replies, after all)

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Re: New partnership

Post by Danica » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:34 pm

Jim, this is... WOW and Thank You and - I'm really glad I asked!
We are together for almost 13 years now. I've never looked at our synastry in this way (using the particular method you use). What you said gives a lot food for thought and self-reflection.

A brief overall comment:

The truth is, I did feel unheard (a more precise description would be: not authentically seen) and basically alone, during the greatest part of our time together.
I never felt "butterflies in the stomach", elating sparkles of passion, and the like, in this relationship.

The cornerstones of our relationship, as I perceive it, are: true friendship (very warm and respectful) & the parenting partnership.
There is much independence and separateness; and we function best as a team when this natural tendency to separateness is acknowledged & given a way for expression.
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Jim Eshelman
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Re: New partnership

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:53 pm

Thanks.

This is a great example of the principle that the best approach in astrology seems to be to read what's there without judging whether it's "supposed" to turn out that way.

Now I'm curious: Historically, what are the most important things you've seen about the synastry?
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Re: New partnership

Post by Danica » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:34 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:53 pm
Historically, what are the most important things you've seen about the synastry?
1. Aries - Libra axis: the complementarity
2. Sun - Mercury mutual, two-fold; Moon - Mars
3. His Moon with my Venus opp. Saturn in 9-H
4. Sun - Mercury
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