Schizophrenic sister

Q&A and discussion about Synastry, i.e., relationship analysis through the comparison of two horoscopes.
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Freya
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Schizophrenic sister

Post by Freya » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 am

Hi all,

Below is my adopted's sister birth chart, born on September 26th 1987, Itamaraju, Bahia, Brazil. Time of birth is unknown she was born in a hut and then brought into the orphanage. She is now severely schizophrenic with little if no hope of recovery.

I calculated a mundoscope. I am not sure what to do next with a noon chart and synastry. My birth data is July 6th 1984, 9.55 am, Florence, Italy. Should I calculate two mundoscopes in a biwheel?
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:01 am

The mundoscope will do no good without a birth time. A standard horoscope for noon in Itamaraju is the best we can do, understanding that we can't rely on time-based things like angles or exact Moon position.

Let's start by taking a quick look at her natal chart.

She is a Virgo-Libra. We can expect all the character traits of those two signs, and probably we could do a fairly deep psych history just spinning off this. (I'm curious, for example, of what brought on this incurable schizophrenia. Genetics surely played a part, one would think; but likely also environmental factors. I don't know how long she was in Brazil, and treatment of young girls there is commonly severe and indecent, and we are probably looking at a severe abuse history, which would be consistent with these luminary signs. But I speculate, so I move on.)

Without early life context, it's hard to fit the pegs into the holes. But a key to this chart is clearly how Mercury matters function. As a Virgo, she is very Mercury-dominant, and Mercury itself is well aspected - an exact opposition to Jupiter. On the other hand, the Virgo Sun is square Neptune (which, with Sun in Virgo, carries elements of Neptune square Mercury.)

By itself, Mercury-Jupiter gives a love of ideas and learning, an easy “way with words,” reassuring in speech and manner. For example, her speech may have marks of a good education whether she had one or not. In contrast to prudent, calculating Mercury-Saturn, Mercury-Jupiter has an optimistic, religious-style thinking: Consider the mind set of the gambler on a roll who simply needs his “hope & vision” not be contradicted with facts in order to keep winning. Normally, Mercury-Jupiter has good business potential, perhaps from raw luck more than skill, and is always looking for the next opportunity or lucky break. (This, of course, would be seriously impacted by schizophrenia.)

It is in Virgo Sun's square to Neptune that a severe conflict in the psyche occurs, two opposing natures looking for a way to coexist. By itself, Sun-Neptune has an unrealistic or disproportionate self-view (much poorer or grander than the facts). They nurtures an air of secrecy or mystery (in this chart: a sense that they have secret information nobody else has). There is love for various Neptunian things (drama, music, fantasy, mysticism, general surrealism) and an active imagination. She is acutely sensitive to surrounding physical and emotional impressions; and exaggerates the “feeling tone” of a time and place.

Are we doing OK so far? Are these primary themes in her character? Or have I gone down a wrong road already?

Mercury-Neptune themes (because Sun is half-conditioned by Mercury and half by Neptune) mostly show different forms of the conflict between reason and fantasy. You can run with that general idea, but there are also some distinctive ways it usually manifests.

Especially, Mercury + Neptune marks extreme sensitivity to sensory impressions (which may include psychism). She likely magnifies trivialities, and fixates on particulars obsessively. She probably loves puzzle- or problem-solving, and gets much pleasure and psychological relief from fantasied problem solving. However, Mercury-Neptune commonly avoids its own real problems by obsessing over fantasy problems. We expect unusual ability to tell stories, create fictional scenes, and enthuse others and convince someone of almost anything. (Just to name a few things.)

She also has an exact Mars-Uranus square. (BTW, the chart is almost entirely dominated by dynamic, hard aspects - a lot of oppositions and squares, almost no trines and sextiles (no close ones at all), so the personality is more driven and dynamic in its energies. (Seems contradictory to say that about a Sun-Neptune, so I'll just make the statement and move on.) Anyway, Mars-Uranus shows her aggressively individual, forging her own universe and her own way. They tend to stand out as highly distinctive characters ("strange characters"), are natural rebels who challenge prevailing thinking, and brutally honest. They take risks psychologically (sometimes physically). Can be industrious and resourceful, and can size up and assess people quickly and accurately. You probably see in this her stubbornness and being "just plain difficult" in multiple ways.

So, she's a cantankerous snot that has to find her way through the conflicts of reason and fantasy, and is actually really gifted in reading people and "moving in for the kill." I think she probably is deeply troubled and suffering from the depth of all of this, but there are several indications that she appears more free (in the sense of unapologetic and knowing she doesn't have to play by the same rules as others).

Freya, your feedback on all of this (I'm working on crutches here) would be most appreciated.

Besides these most powerful aspects, something I most note is that - as a Virgo-Libra - she lacks a Hub luminary. She is much more effective on the surface than in the depths. She may sense people accurately, and be able to move them effectively, but she isn't particularly interested in understanding them or "getting" someone else's reality. She has plenty of reality of her own, thank you, and doesn't need yours! <g>
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:44 am

Next, yes, we put her planets in an outside wheel around your chart. I'll take a quick look, first, at two luminaries, two benefics, and two malefics.

She has no planets near your angles. Perhaps most important is that - depending on time of birth - her Moon is surely conjunct your Mars-Saturn. It might be closer to one or the other - closer to your Mars in late morning and early afternoon, closer to your Saturn if in earliest hours of the day. But the worst part of your chart is stirred by her Moon.

This isn't going to be pleasant for either one of you! Moon-Mars interchanges are particularly scathing, even resulting in physical assaults in the middle of arguments in extreme cases. Moon-Saturn is cold.

Something that may be hard for you to hear is that this interaction is far worse on her than it is on you. (As bad as it is on you, it's surely worse on her.) It's her Moon - her vulnerabilities and responsiveness - that are feeling the impact of two malefics. On your size, her Moon is bringing out the worst sides of you, sides and traits and feelings that are contrary to (what I have learned in observing you) is a deeply compassionate heart.

When we relocate your natal to Southampton, her Moon on your Mars-Saturn falls right on IC. Also, her Pluto falls right on your IC. (Her Pluto is at 13°54' Libra, but it is on MC or IC when the longitude is 19°00' Libra. Your Southampton IC is 19°46' Libra.) I think you are wise not to bring her to Southampton - it would be quite eruptive and emotionally volatile.

Other interchanges of the lumiaries, benefics, and malefics are slighter. For example, her Sun is in a moderate-orbed square to your Jupiter, which does allow for some mutual respect and reciprocal kindnesses. Her Venus squares your Sun closely, so there is room for honest friendship (though, at this point, that may feel like "a lost opportunity").

Moving to other interchanges, the most important is probably involving your Mercury-Pluto square and her Mercury-Jupiter square. I don't really need to detail this to get the overall picture of your charts.
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:53 am

By the way, my best guess (just a guess) is that she was born early in the day. I say this because, the closer her birth is to the start of the day, the closer would be her natal Moon-Pluto conjunction (it was exact around 1 AM).

Without a birth time, there isn't anything in her chart that seems obviously indicative of schizophrenia. Sure, the Sun-Neptune is there, but a lot of people have close Sun-Neptune hard aspects and only seem crazy <vbg>. But a Moon-Pluto conjunction (in the context of the other main aspects) would show two key characteristics: One, a general sense of isolation and alienation, living on the outskirts of everyone else's world. Two, a much-increased chance of abuse and experiences that fundamentally deform her psyche. (Also, was she orphaned? Is that why she was adopted? A birth around 2 AM puts a partile Moon-Pluto on IC, for example.)

Here is my standard interpretation of Moon-Pluto aspects. You can judge for yourself, from your deeper knowledge of her:
Moon-Pluto wrote:Bold & forthright, questioning & challenging, maverick & alien; independent, “marching to a different drummer,” resisting authority. Avoids habitual conformity (rebellious?); resists conventional conditioning and being made to concur with others’ values and codes. Restless, unwilling to be still for long, can uproot or take to the road on little notice. Deeply inquiring into existential mysteries, often igniting remarkable intuitive insights.
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:57 am

Without a birth time, it's hard to see her side of your relationship as clearly. We can still look at your luminaries, benefics, and malefics on her planets, and the main thing we get, of course, is your Mars-Saturn on her Moon, plus your Sun square her Venus (and the wider square of your Jupiter to her Sun).

Freya, does this give anything helpful, perhaps new insights?
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Freya » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:32 am

Thank you for such an in-depth analysis Jim. What you say rings true to me, especially this point
Something that may be hard for you to hear is that this interaction is far worse on her than it is on you. (As bad as it is on you, it's surely worse on her.) It's her Moon - her vulnerabilities and responsiveness - that are feeling the impact of two malefics. On your side, her Moon is bringing out the worst sides of you, sides and traits and feelings that are contrary to (what I have learned in observing you) is a deeply compassionate heart.
When I am around her I see a side of myself that I wish wasn't there (quite harsh and lacking in compassion) and I cannot be around her because of this. There is much resentment there, accumulated over the years, that I feel will drive me to illness should I allow her back in my life.

To provide you with some background:

My sister was adopted by my parents and brought to Italy to live with us when she was 15 days old. Up until age 5 we were close, at age 6, when she started going to school, I notice her change towards me. She started displaying a mean and rebellious streak. She loved getting me into trouble and blaming me for it, when it was all her doing. We were not very close, and this behaviour became worse as we both became teens. She would laugh and enjoy seeing me beaten up by my parents. At school she would refuse to do her homework and prefer to socialise. She was born with a really good singing voice but had no real discipline to learn to use it properly. Apart from this there was no sign of mental illness. My sister appears to have a very stubborn personality, and she is a bully, however deep down she is weak and easily led.

I must admit that it was not all her fault. My mother contributed to this behaviour. To understand my sister's situation, one must understand my mother (born in Palermo, Italy on August 19th 1947, birth time unknown). My mother would give her preferential treatment, do all of her homework for her, appease every whim and even pay my sister money to "spy" on me. She then would send my sister to ruin my relationships with my friends, and she took pleasure in doing that. There was an incident in 2001, where we both became infatuated with a boy on holiday and my sister ruthelessly spread lies about me to the entire resort, because she knew she was too young to have his interest. My mother had prompted her to do so. I never felt close with my mother, in fact quite the opposite, she has always made me feel inferior.

In 2002 the relationship between my sister,my mother as a result and I degenerated completely. I met my first boyfriend in July 2002. I packed my bags and shut the door behind me, and did not see them or speak to them until 2008, when I made contact again. No efforts were made to find me although I was living in the same city.

When I saw my sister again in 2008 she was singing occasionally in a local theathre as an opera singer. She apologised for having beahved the way she did during her childhood. My grandmother died in 2008 and I flew from New Jersey, where I was living at the time, for the funeral. It was a brief moment over two days, as I was off again to the U.S. By then my sister was hanging out with the wrong crowd, and started using drugs.

2009 was a key year for both of us. I got married to my ex-husband and relocated to the UK, my sister's mental illness manifested itself then, as she started hearing voices.

My mother again told me never to speak to her again due to my choice of husband. From 2009 until 2014 I did not speak to my parents (my father does what my mother tells him) and I decided to make contact again in 2014 as I was ready to leave him.

During those years my sister had become someone else. She got herself into an enormous amount of trouble. She was raped multiple times, kidnapped, kicked my mother in the eye so hard that her retina detached, and developed a nasty drink and drug habit. She hung out with all the illegal immigrants she could find, and was found by the police begging in random parts of Italy, totally crazy as well, in a world of her own. Once she went missing for 3 months and the police found her naked, covered in filth, chained to a shopping cart full of rubbish in a gypsy camp. She was ranting and raving with the voices that she heard. She vandalised my mother's car and threatened to kill my parents with knives to emulate a murder she saw on the news. I could go on with a infinite list of bizzarre events that she was involved in, as the list is endless. She is now unable to hold a conversation without talking aloud with her voices. My parents and I have become voices too.

She just seems to attract violence and abuse, and has a very negative aura around her. Her eyes have a glassy, fixed stare to them that makes people very uncomfortable. It's like someone else is living in that body. In her low moments, she appears frail and infanitle, her mind is like that of a 7 year old. In her manic moments she screams and shouts (she is a big girl, much bigger than me) and becomes violent. She has stated that she feels entitled to beat up her family. In August 2017 she got raped and got pregnant, hand had a late medical abortion in November 2017. I am not sure if these key dates are helpful at all.

My sister has been resistant to treatment all this time. She was put in a rehab centre, all paid for by the health service, but fled to live in the streets and beg. Now the health service cannot offer her anything else as spaces are limited, and unfortunately in Italy, she cannot be forced to stay in a psychiatric ward, unless there is her consent. She will not give it as she is perfectly happy living at home, where my mother is her nurse. My sister has a highly addictive personality; she somkes 7 packets of cigarettes a day and drinks nothing but stimulants. She refuses her medication, which is crushed and put in her coffee by my parents. The medication however does little for her voices, and she has tried several combinations. Then, when she gets bored of being at home, she lives on the streets, where people steal from her and abuse her as they know she is mentally unstable. She likes living in the streets and she now has a network of degenerates who help her get drunk and give her a piece of carboard to sleep on.

She has now been declared as lacking mental capacity , and my father has power of attorney. The psychiatrists have diagnosed her as the worst case of schizofrenia in the region, and they have declared her a "ticking bomb". She could easily kill someone when she is in a manic mood swing, but unfortunately the law is such that it cannot be prevented.

She has also been diagnosed with emotional borderline personality disorder and schizoaffective disorder.
She has a knack for not owning up or learning from her mistakes, and anything that happens she manages to twist it and "re-write" the scenario in such a way where she is not the victim. She is also a very skilled manipulator, makes people feel that they should all cater for her needs because she has suffered the trauma of adoption. That tactic just winds me up to no end, but works on my parents.

On December 30th 2017 she attacked my parents again and went for me. My fiance was there and tackled her to the ground. He is now the aggress or and my mother, who was initailly grateful, has started to believe her psychotic rationale for the event. My mother is now begrudigly seeing my sister's psychotherapist (my father made her do so) because she is being seriously affected by my sister's mental illness. As all mentally ill people she cannot see that, and is only going there to appease my father.

In November, she nearly had me convinced to bring my sister over to Southampton when they die, and to sign all the documents needed to get her papers way beforehand. I thank the incident on the 30th of December in a way, it has opened my eyes, as well as your interpretation of my natal chart in this context, that it is a grave mistake to bring her over here. One us us is going to end up dead or seriously injured.

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:40 am

Freya wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:32 am
When I am around her I see a side of myself that I wish wasn't there (quite harsh and lacking in compassion) and I cannot be around her because of this. There is much resentment there, accumulated over the years, that I feel will drive me to illness should I allow her back in my life.
One might say that her purpose in your life is to show you this side of yourself, to draw it out - we exist in each other's lives to show us aspects of ourselves that we might not see or understand otherwise.

I also forgot to mention one obvious thing about the interchanges. She has a Virgo Sun, you have a Virgo Moon. Even though they aren't in aspect, this means that she has a certain natural dominance, and need to assert dominance, over you. There is also sometimes bizarre miscommunication between Geminis and Virgos, I find, that seems to me to come from the fact that both are Mercury's children, and yet so different.
My sister was adopted by my parents and brought to Italy to live with us when she was 15 days old.
So all of my concerns about early years in certain parts of Brazil were nothing. Good to know.
At school she would refuse to do her homework and prefer to socialise.
Sounds like (among other things) the rebellious Mars-Uranus working out through her Libra Moon. Certainly not Virgo-like, etc.
My sister appears to have a very stubborn personality, and she is a bully, however deep down she is weak and easily led.
I almost used "stubborn" and "bully" several times, and kept thinking I as dwelling too much on the negative... but yeah, those are all over the chart in different ways.
I must admit that it was not all her fault. My mother contributed to this behaviour. To understand my sister's situation, one must understand my mother (born in Palermo, Italy on August 19th 1947, birth time unknown).
You have a Siciliano mother? That actually explains a great deal you've told us :)

More Virgo as a family pattern. She is a Leo, of course, but has your Virgo Moon. But that also means that, for all her Leo strength, she is naturally submissive to your Virgo Sun sister. (During much of the day your mother was born, her Moon was in orb of actual conjunction with your sister's Moon.) There is something quite wicked and dangerous between their charts, though - among all three of your charts - because your mother's Mercury-Saturn-Pluto conjunction is square your sister's Moon (unless she was born quite early in the day) and your Mars.
2009 was a key year for both of us. I got married to my ex-husband and relocated to the UK, my sister's mental illness manifested itself then, as she started hearing voices.
Though there are some transits possibly relevant to this, e.g., Pluto starting the approach to her Sun, her mental illness is likely an incident - something built into her from the beginning, that would emerge in its own ripe time - and better shown by progressions. Late 2008 and early 2009 was when progressed Mars squared her Neptune. Interestingly, there is also a progressed Sun-Jupiter opposition - I'm not sure what that specifically meant. She also had a progressed Venus-Pluto conjunction, which would have sharply altered / redefined her close relationships (friends, romantic, whatever). There was, at least, a lot moving around in her psyche.
During those years my sister had become someone else. She got herself into an enormous amount of trouble. She was raped multiple times, kidnapped, kicked my mother in the eye so hard that her retina detached, and developed a nasty drink and drug habit. She hung out with all the illegal immigrants she could find, and was found by the police begging in random parts of Italy, totally crazy as well, in a world of her own.
This, and the rest, is rather taking that Rim Moon to quite the extreme! While I do know quite a lot of Libra Moons with traits similar to these, I still think she was born early in the day with a close Moon-Pluto conjunction - just a speculation.
She just seems to attract violence and abuse
Again, one significant form of Moon-Pluto. Notice that I mentioned concern about abuse at the top (but wrongly thought it was likely in her childhood).
On December 30th 2017 she attacked my parents again and went for me. My fiance was there and tackled her to the ground.
She's in a back-and-forth of Saturn square her Sun at the moment. The attack occurred with Mars at 18+ Libra - quite significant for you! I've tended to think her Moon is several degrees earlier than that, but this incident puts a high focus on that as a possible Moon degree. (Perhaps somethig around 9 AM instead of the 1 AM I mentioned earlier.) But 1 AM would give her not only an exact Moon-Pluto conjunction, it would put Mars and Saturn on her angles for Florence - and these three things seem consistent with essentially everything you've said.
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Freya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:49 am

Jim, your interpretation of my syster's chart with mine and my mother's was an eye-opener. I thought there was a strange dynamic between my mother and myself/sister and I could not point out to what it was. It is karma that has not yet finished.
There is something quite wicked and dangerous between their charts, though - among all three of your charts - because your mother's Mercury-Saturn-Pluto conjunction is square your sister's Moon (unless she was born quite early in the day) and your Mars.
What do you mean by this Jim? I would like to explore this further if possible? It rings so true. My mother is Sicilian and it has been incredibly tough to grow up with her, and even now to have a normal relationship with her. I see that her chart is contained within the two lunar nodes, a bad omen for vedic astrologers, but it probably does not mean much for siderealists. According to my aunt, my mother was born early in the afternoon around 2 o'clockish.

You were right about my sister, having spoken to my father, he says he remembers that they were told at the orphanage that my sister was born in the early hours of the morning!

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:05 am

Thanks for the improved birth data on your mother and sister. Let's see where this takes us.
According to my aunt, my mother was born early in the afternoon around 2 o'clockish.
So we have August 19, 1947, 2:00 PM, Palermo, Italy. This puts her Virgo Moon about 2° from square Mars, and gives her a 14° Cancer MC, with Mercury, Saturn, and Pluto conjoined near MC. To what we have discussed before, this confirms a more distant, controlling persona, someone with an acerbic edge to her presentation, with difficulties expressing warmth. She is strategic, cagey, probably quite a political operative.

And, of course, your Mars and Saturn are drawn out by this chart. Your Mars is only a few minutes from its EP. Your Saturn is a little over 1° from square her MC. She doesn't find it easy expressing warmth, and also she probably never felt any warmth from you. (Your Jupiter squares her Moon, so you naturally express generosity toward her, but not warmth or affection.)
You were right about my sister, having spoken to my father, he says he remembers that they were told at the orphanage that my sister was born in the early hours of the morning!
That's great! (All I did was pick conditions that matched what you were telling us previously.) This still is a huge time range, unless your family knows more about what "in the early hours of the morning" means. It does seem to rule out the 9 AM range, but it isn't necessarily as early as the 1 AM I am suggesting.

Running, for the moment, with a 1 AM time, it puts her Mercury-Jupiter opposition right along the meridian for birth. What really catches my attention, though, are the angles for Florence. If she were born at 1 AM, we get a hugely descriptive chart for where she grew up after her first few days of life:

21°06' Sco - Saturn
22°15' Tau - MC

24°25' Leo - Asc
27°50' Leo - Mars
-- 28°24' Sco - Uranus

13°52' Lib - Moon
13°53' Lib - Pluto

But don't get too comfortable with this - it's a "general region of the day" best guess. It does describe the person you have described, but I think we need a little humility regarding our limitations in finding a time this easily.
Freya wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:49 am
Jim, your interpretation of my syster's chart with mine and my mother's was an eye-opener. I thought there was a strange dynamic between my mother and myself/sister and I could not point out to what it was. It is karma that has not yet finished.
Indeed it is. (That is, it has all those characteristics.)
There is something quite wicked and dangerous between their charts, though - among all three of your charts - because your mother's Mercury-Saturn-Pluto conjunction is square your sister's Moon (unless she was born quite early in the day) and your Mars.
What do you mean by this Jim? I would like to explore this further if possible? It rings so true.
For the "working times" we have on all the charts, here are interweaving planets from the three of you:

14° Libra - sister's Moon (1 AM)
14° Libra - sister's Pluto
15° Libra - your Saturn
18° Libra - sister's Moon for mid-morning [too late?]
19° Libra - your Mars
19° Cancer - mother's Pluto
20° Cancer - mother's Saturn
22° Cancer - mother's Mercury

Look at all these interconnections! You can look them up one by one, if you like, though the overall impression probably gives you enough information: These are cruel, unfeeling, hard, painful, diminishing, damaging aspects, and they arise out of the three-way interaction of your three charts. Just taking the closest ones, we have your Saturn and your sister's Moon-Pluto, and the real killer: your Mars, your mother's Saturn-Pluto, and maybe your sister's Moon.

This is what I meant by "wicked and dangerous."
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:26 am

Where was the December 30, 2017 event? Florence?
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:44 am

If it helps, Freya's sister's 2017 SSR for Florence (had she been born around 12.40AM) features a partile Mars-Neptune opposition, partile squaring SSR ascendant and partile squaring her 12.40AM natal MC. Moon is close on her SSR descendant. A partile transiting Mercury-Saturn square connects to her Mars-Uranus (Mercury's partile to both her Mars and Uranus, but Saturn's only partile to her Mars), with Saturn on the moderate/wide foreground and Mercury background.

Also, her 12.40AM birth time makes her under a Neptune transit to her Mercury from late-ish Augush 2017 until mid-February 2018 (a little too obvious of a transit she could be going through, I guess?)

Freya, Jim, how do you two think about this? Would the symbolisms above match up for how her life's been going after her birthday/SSR?

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:09 am

Could be, yes - from what we know. But we know so little about motivation and details, and I think it's a bad choice to rely on anything that could be, say, up to 8 hours off.
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:59 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:44 am
This isn't going to be pleasant for either one of you! Moon-Mars interchanges are particularly scathing, even resulting in physical assaults in the middle of arguments in extreme cases.
Jim, would you have a suggestion for dealing with this interaspect between family or friends? What is the best way to handle it, to turn it into something positive?

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:12 am

FlorencedeZ. wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:59 am
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:44 am
This isn't going to be pleasant for either one of you! Moon-Mars interchanges are particularly scathing, even resulting in physical assaults in the middle of arguments in extreme cases.
Jim, would you have a suggestion for dealing with this interaspect between family or friends? What is the best way to handle it, to turn it into something positive?
Well, that doesn't require an astrological answer but, rather, a human interaction answer - probably best provided by a therapist.

People have to be open to clean communication - to know the difference - to know how to fight cleanly - to understand their own reactions and unresolved juvenile content - and more.

Perhaps this isn't the answer for you, but I'd probably pick simply having nothing to do with them. (If you can't have insane, out-of-control sex with them, it's pretty hard to find a constructive outlet for those energies.)
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Freya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:16 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:26 am
Where was the December 30, 2017 event? Florence?
Yes it was.... I seem to get into family trouble when I go there, and be ok when I move back to the UK.

My mother was a "smother-mother" when I was little, but completely cold and distant during my teenage years up until now. If she cannot impose her will upon me, she will cut me off. Luckily I will not be subjugated and had the guts to leave at 18 and now I am used to this dynamic.
To what we have discussed before, this confirms a more distant, controlling persona, someone with an acerbic edge to her presentation, with difficulties expressing warmth. She is strategic, cagey, probably quite a political operative.

Totally true!!! She is like the female version of Petyr Baelish from Game of Thrones or, if you have watched the tv series Rome, Atia of the Julii reminded me so much of my mother. On the other hand I can feel that very deep down I have the potential of being exactly the same, and it comes out as deep resentment when I am around my sister (oddly enough not my mother). This is because I do not love my sister as much as I love my mother. In fact, I feel completely numb about my sister.

I truly love my mother but cannot be around her for too long before I get twisted into one of her plots. She is very intelligent (has two PHd's) but also cunning. I have always been so naive around her, wanting to trust her . She will not rest until I have left my current partner. She has admitted that she wants to break us up because she wants me married with a man of substance and status and of course Catholic (had even picked out the one she wanted for me last year). I cannot see anything untoward between my partner's chart and my mother's, save a conjuction between my partner's mercury and my mother's pluto. (My partner was born on August 27th 1972, at 14.15 pm Southampton, England)

Jim, the dynamics you highlighted are quite dysfunctional, for lack of a better word. Thanks to your help I now know that they have been entrenched since birth, for reasons beyond my understanding.

My father is a whole different kettle of fish. He is the true embodiement a Taurus (Born on April 20th, 1950 in Florence Italy He is accomplished in his scientific research field and has had inventions attributed to his name. He is deeply religious, but not bigoted and intelligent. I have seen use his brains to get out very difficult situations, and makes a formidable adversary. I have seen him in action, winning complex legal battles (he is often called to be an expert witness) His intelligence is not cunning but acumen.

If only I could be half the person that he is, with some of the cunning from my mother, I would make a great lawyer. Unfortunately I don't think I will ever be like him. I have always been naive and a pushover 9this has started to change since moving to the UK, I now seem to be able to stand my ground a lot more easily, however it is not so when I go back to Florence and somehow, revert to being my former self). When backed into a corner then I will bite and it is "deadly", but that doesn't usually happen . I am not sure if this helpful as to the gemini-virgo and mars-saturn interaction, but my homeopathic constitutional remedy is Naja tripudians.

I have always felt a deeper connection with my father and the happiest memories of my childhood all revolved around him. He taught me the joy of life. If it had not been for my father I would have had a terrible childhood with my mother alone.

Even now he vowed never to stop speaking to me again, and admitted that he had been swayed by my mother. He is helping me so much on all fronts that I would not have survived my divorce if it was not for my father's help.

I find it very sad in a way. I don't miss my mother but I miss my father, and maybe it is also why my Saturn is foreground on the IC in Southampton
Last edited by Freya on Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Freya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:19 pm

TheScales_BothWays wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:44 am
If it helps, Freya's sister's 2017 SSR for Florence (had she been born around 12.40AM) features a partile Mars-Neptune opposition, partile squaring SSR ascendant and partile squaring her 12.40AM natal MC. Moon is close on her SSR descendant. A partile transiting Mercury-Saturn square connects to her Mars-Uranus (Mercury's partile to both her Mars and Uranus, but Saturn's only partile to her Mars), with Saturn on the moderate/wide foreground and Mercury background.

Also, her 12.40AM birth time makes her under a Neptune transit to her Mercury from late-ish Augush 2017 until mid-February 2018 (a little too obvious of a transit she could be going through, I guess?)

Freya, Jim, how do you two think about this? Would the symbolisms above match up for how her life's been going after her birthday/SSR?
Could be. To be honest, since July 2017 her mental health has declined terribly. She is now unable to form a sentence without being interrupted by her voices, or even having visual hallucinations. She has never been this bad before and does not seem to recover

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:28 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:12 am
FlorencedeZ. wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:59 am
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:44 am
This isn't going to be pleasant for either one of you! Moon-Mars interchanges are particularly scathing, even resulting in physical assaults in the middle of arguments in extreme cases.
Jim, would you have a suggestion for dealing with this interaspect between family or friends? What is the best way to handle it, to turn it into something positive?
Well, that doesn't require an astrological answer but, rather, a human interaction answer - probably best provided by a therapist.

People have to be open to clean communication - to know the difference - to know how to fight cleanly - to understand their own reactions and unresolved juvenile content - and more.

Perhaps this isn't the answer for you, but I'd probably pick simply having nothing to do with them. (If you can't have insane, out-of-control sex with them, it's pretty hard to find a constructive outlet for those energies.)
I agree with you Jim about a human interaction answer instead of an astrological one. I have this interchange with my daughter. I am on the receiving end.(Moon) And I can relate to some of the harsh things that Freya just wrote and your comments on this aspect.

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:39 pm

This might help, Florence: The key friction is that your daughter wants emotional response from you, and doesn't ultimately care whether it is positive or negative. It is the magnitude and consistency of emotional response that matters most. If you look at your negative interactions, I think you'll see that she has prodded you into giving her some kind of strong emotion (at a much higher level than most people need).

Knowing this, you can perhaps pick how to meet these needs ahead of the conflict?
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:11 pm

Thank you Jim. It's so true. This really is the dynamics between me and her. For instance we are in town and all of a sudden she picks a verbal fight with me. (indeed to get a response to heighten her emotions) It then escalates quickly. And I tell her to go away so I can be by myself, it gets too much. So we end up going home seperately. This is one example. I will have to think of how to meet these strong emotional needs ahead of her lashing out and me in response to it. This Moon-Mars interchange only started to manifest when she left home for Uni. Before that we didn't really have these issues.

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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:34 pm

FlorencedeZ. wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:11 pm
This Moon-Mars interchange only started to manifest when she left home for Uni. Before that we didn't really have these issues.
That makes a lot of sense - and also tells me that you did some seriously "right" things as a mother.

I think the mechanism here is that she really does feel she isn't getting enough of you. She moved away, and some inner well of "full enough of Mom" isn't being filled. It may not consciously occur to her this way (or maybe it does), but this is surely the cell-level need that isn't being met, so she instinctively strikes out in a way to get more off you (more intensity, more concentrated energy from you) in the time she has. (And yes, it is common for the Moon person to pull away protectively, which makes the problem worse.)
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Re: Schizophrenic sister

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:31 am

Thank you very much Jim. It helps so much to know this. I often thought that this must be the case. This clarifies the matter.

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