Common degrees...?

[Jim Eshelman]

Today is the anniversary of two major fires, both in New York City. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire began March 25, 1911, 4:40 PM, in Manhattan (specifically at 40N43'48", 73W59'43"). The Happy Land Social Club Fire began March 25, 1990, 3:40 AM, in the Bronx (specifically at 40N50'35", 73W53'09").

Because they occurred the same day, it occurred to me they probably had their Suns conjoined, as they in fact do. They also have their Marses conjoined, even closer, and on a seemingly distinctive, important degree. I thought I'd take a few minutes to see if I could tell anything about this degree in terms of aspects to fixed stars or other considerations.

Here are the positions, Triangle given before Happy Land:

TSF Sun 10°37' Pisces
HLSC Sun 9°50' Pisces

TSF Mars 15°19' Capricorn
HLSC Mars 15°34' Capricorn

Mars, in each case, is at 15°+ Capricorn, which is the Fall of Jupiter. I've seen other instances this degree being as distinctly unfortunate as, say, the Mars exaltation degree (28° Capricorn) is fiery and tragic; so I find this coincidence at least interesting.

Sun's degree, about 10° Pisces, isn't as obvious a "pop" (and that is, after all, what drew me to look at this in the first place). This means I have to dig a bit more. Since we have the same location (all we need is the same latitude), one thing we can check is Sun's parans to fixed stars. At the time of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, Sun had these partile parans to major stars:

square Ras Alhague 0°02'
square Betelgeuse 0°13'
square Canopus 0°18'
square Mirzam 0°30'
square Algol 0°36'

It's an interesting list, especially with Algol (which sets in New York City when Sun at this longitude is on IC). Let's compare this to Sun for the Happy Land Social Club fire. It turns out, we don't get to keep Algol, but we get to keep these three:

square Mirzam 0°02'
square Canopus 0°20'
square Ras Alghague 0°40'

Mirzam is the beta (2nd brightest) star in Canis Major. Ptolemy considered all Canis stars except Sirius to be like Venus, which doesn't help us a whit. Canopus is the bright, obvious alpha star in Carina (anciently part of Argo), second only to Sirius in night-star brightness which Ptolemy (echoed by Ebertin) thought was like Jupiter & Saturn.

Ras Alhague is the brightest star in Ophiuchus, and here we at least get to some classic malevolent expectations. Ptolemy thought all stars in this constellation were like Saturn, though only those in the serpent itself were like Saturn and Mars. (Ras Alhague is the human head, so like Saturn and, to some extent, Venus.) - Ebertin, though, was harsher, resting on the Saturn attribution and adding Neptune elements, especially with vulnerability to toxins and poisons.

So, if we are to credit anything here, it would be to Sun paran Ras Alhague or, with wider orbs, Algol. If either of these theories has weight, then it would suggest that Sun at 10° Pisces is particularly malevolent for the latitude of 41N, such as New York City.

To follow-up on this approach, is there anything similar with Mars? At the time of the Triangle fire, Mars had the following star parans:

square Menkar 0°22'
square Antares 0°40'
opposite Sirius 1°00'
square Achernar 0°36'

Well, that paran to Antares certainly catches attention! Does this repeat for Happy Land? No, not within 1° (due to Mars having different latitude.) Here is the list for the Happy Land fire:

square Menkar 0°59'
opposite Sirius 0°21'

So we have two possible commonalities. Menkar, brightest star in Cetus, was attributed by Ptolemy to Saturn, which Ebertin echoes (in people this works out mostly in health afflictions and other restrictions, but it seems an unfortunate star). Sirius, of course, is the real giant here, but is primarily attributed to Jupiter (and, just a little, to Mars). Ebertin, though, insists that with Mars it can be "quite dangerous."

In passing, I'll observe that, between Canopus and Sirius, both Suns and both Mars were connected to one of the two brightest stars in the night sky for two events that "lit up the night" with excessive brilliance on their own. But maybe that's pushing it...


Finally, I want to explore the theory (which has many positive outcomes) that the Dasa-Bhukti partitioning of the zodiac has spatial importance. To be degree specific, we'd expect Bhukti (sub-zone) keys in particular.

The two Sun longitudes (10°37' & 9°50' Pisces) are both in the Saturn Dasa (3°20-16°40' of all 'water' signs), but fall in different Bhuktis; but the difference is quite fascinating! The earlier longitude, belonging to the Happy Land fire, is in a Venus-of-Saturn sector (8°00'-10°13'), and the entire story was about romantic rejection! The later longitude, for Triangle, is in a Sun-of-Saturn sector (10°13'-10°53'), and the tragedy was all about management (authority) lockdown and control. - This doesn't give us an example of the two being the same in some fashion, but it's interesting.

As for the Mars degrees (15°19' & 15°34' Capricorn), these both fall in a Moon dasa, and a Jupiter bhukti (13°47'-15°47' Capricorn). Jupiter-of-Moon isn't a fit at all! It would tend to negate the casually observed malevolency of 15° Capricorn in the first place.

So... in conclusion so far... I didn't find anything persuasive to me and we may only have coincidence. However, I did find things I think are of interest, and writing them here might encourage me (or someone else) to remember them in the future; and I've thrown the problem open to all of you in case you want to dig into it on your own.

Again, the question is: Is there anything distinctive, connected to tragic, deadly fire, for 10° Pisces and 15° Capricorn either intrinsically or consistent with the latitude of New York City.

[Jim Eshelman]

PS, here is an example of one place the Bhukti distinctions have seemed to give something degree-specific in the past. Look at the traditional exaltation degrees of the planets:

Moon (3° Taurus) - Jupiter (1°07'-3°07)
Mercury (15° Virgo) - Jupiter (13°47'-15°47')
Venus (27° Pisces) - Jupiter (26°13'-28°13')
Mars (28° Capricorn) - Jupiter (25°40-27°40')
Jupiter (15° Cancer) - Jupiter (14°40'-16°40')
Saturn (21° Libra) - Jupiter (20°00'-22°00')
Sun (19° Aries) - Mars or Uranus (Jupiter doesn't start until 20°00')

For six of the seven exaltation degrees, the Bhukti model has the degree zone (or, in Moon's case, at least half of it) inherently Jupiter, i.e., referring to exaltation itself! I've long found this terribly interesting since first discovering it in the mid-'70s.

As a curio, a tease for Bogdan , and to preserve the idea of intrinsic exaltation in these degrees, I might (slightly tongue in cheek) suggest that if anyone ever assigned exaltation degrees to more planets in other signs, the degrees they should pick (based on other Jupiter zones) are:

Gemini 8° or 20-21°
Leo 8° or 20-21°
Scorpio 15° (!) or 27°
Sagittarius 8° or 20-21°
Aquarius 8° or 20-21°

[SteveS]

I would like to investigate this with more reading material. Are there any sources?

[Jim Eshelman]

I would like to investigate this with more reading material. Are there any sources?

On the fires? Or on something else?

[SteveS]

For six of the seven exaltation degrees, the Bhukti model has the degree zone (or, in Moon's case, at least half of it) inherently Jupiter, i.e., referring to exaltation itself! I've long found this terribly interesting since first discovering it in the mid-'70s.

Do you remember the source for discovering this?

[Jim Eshelman]

I was just playing around with the Dasa-Bhukti tables, and one of them caught my eye, so I checked out all of them, and saw that six of the seven matched. I think I wrote it up in one of my articles for The Constellations (where I was introducing Dasa-Bhukti in general).

The zodiac break-down into the 243 parts is on the third tab of the Excel spreadsheet I have posted here somewhere for calculating Dasas and Bhuktis.

[Arena]

PS, here is an example of one place the Bhukti distinctions have seemed to give something degree-specific in the past. Look at the traditional exaltation degrees of the planets:

Moon (3° Taurus) - Jupiter (1°07'-3°07)
Mercury (15° Virgo) - Jupiter (13°47'-15°47')
Venus (27° Pisces) - Jupiter (26°13'-28°13')
Mars (28° Capricorn) - Jupiter (25°40-27°40')
Jupiter (15° Cancer) - Jupiter (14°40'-16°40')
Saturn (21° Libra) - Jupiter (20°00'-22°00')
Sun (19° Aries) - Mars or Uranus (Jupiter doesn't start until 20°00')

For six of the seven exaltation degrees, the Bhukti model has the degree zone (or, in Moon's case, at least half of it) inherently Jupiter, i.e., referring to exaltation itself! I've long found this terribly interesting since first discovering it in the mid-'70s.

As a curio, a tease for Bogdan , and to preserve the idea of intrinsic exaltation in these degrees, I might (slightly tongue in cheek) suggest that if anyone ever assigned exaltation degrees to more planets in other signs, the degrees they should pick (based on other Jupiter zones) are:

Gemini 8° or 20-21°
Leo 8° or 20-21°
Scorpio 15° (!) or 27°
Sagittarius 8° or 20-21°
Aquarius 8° or 20-21°

This is the most interesting and convincing argument for the exaltation degrees that I have seen so far. Here it is, staring us in the face. This is "the truth" to the exaltation, they are exalted because they are in Jupiter's realms, so act almost as if they were conjunct Jupiter.

[SteveS]

Yes, most interesting Jim.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, most interesting Jim.

Thanks. BTW, here's the thread that gives the Excel spreadsheet for calculation. Notice that the last tab gives the zodiacal zones.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=237&p=1608

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve, it occurred to me I could post the list here from the spreadsheet, using the CODE code to keep the columns organized. The degrees listed are where each section starts.

Code: Select all

SIGNS	LONG	DASA	BHUKTI
Ari Leo Sag	0°00'00"	Neptune	Neptune
Ari Leo Sag	0°46'40"	Neptune	Venus
Ari Leo Sag	3°00'00"	Neptune	Sun
Ari Leo Sag	3°40'00"	Neptune	Moon
Ari Leo Sag	4°46'40"	Neptune	Mars
Ari Leo Sag	6°40'00"	Neptune	Uranus
Ari Leo Sag	7°26'40"	Neptune	Jupiter
Ari Leo Sag	9°26'40"	Neptune	Saturn
Ari Leo Sag	11°13'20"	Neptune	Mercury
Ari Leo Sag	13°20'00"	Venus	Venus
Ari Leo Sag	15°33'20"	Venus	Sun
Ari Leo Sag	16°13'20"	Venus	Moon
Ari Leo Sag	17°20'00"	Venus	Mars
Ari Leo Sag	19°13'20"	Venus	Uranus
Ari Leo Sag	20°00'00"	Venus	Jupiter
Ari Leo Sag	22°00'00"	Venus	Saturn
Ari Leo Sag	23°46'40"	Venus	Mercury
Ari Leo Sag	25°53'20"	Venus	Neptune
Ari Leo Sag	26°40'00"	Sun	Sun
Ari Leo Sag	27°20'00"	Sun	Moon
Ari Leo Sag	28°26'40"	Sun	Mars
Tau Vir Cap	0°20'00"	Sun	Uranus
Tau Vir Cap	1°06'40"	Sun	Jupiter
Tau Vir Cap	3°06'40"	Sun	Saturn
Tau Vir Cap	4°53'20"	Sun	Mercury
Tau Vir Cap	7°00'00"	Sun	Neptune
Tau Vir Cap	7°46'40"	Sun	Venus
Tau Vir Cap	10°00'00"	Moon	Moon
Tau Vir Cap	11°06'40"	Moon	Mars
Tau Vir Cap	13°00'00"	Moon	Uranus
Tau Vir Cap	13°46'40"	Moon	Jupiter
Tau Vir Cap	15°46'40"	Moon	Saturn
Tau Vir Cap	17°33'20"	Moon	Mercury
Tau Vir Cap	19°40'00"	Moon	Neptune
Tau Vir Cap	20°26'40"	Moon	Venus
Tau Vir Cap	22°40'00"	Moon	Sun
Tau Vir Cap	23°20'00"	Mars	Mars
Tau Vir Cap	24°53'20"	Mars	Uranus
Tau Vir Cap	25°40'00'	Mars	Jupiter
Tau Vir Cap	27°40'00'	Mars	Saturn
Tau Vir Cap	28°46'40"	Mars	Mercury
Gem Lib Aqu	0°53'20"	Mars	Neptune
Gem Lib Aqu	1°40'00"	Mars	Venus
Gem Lib Aqu	3°53'20"	Mars	Sun
Gem Lib Aqu	4°33'20"	Mars	Moon
Gem Lib Aqu	6°40'00"	Uranus	Uranus
Gem Lib Aqu	7°26'40"	Uranus	Jupiter
Gem Lib Aqu	9°26'40"	Uranus	Saturn
Gem Lib Aqu	11°13'20"	Uranus	Mercury
Gem Lib Aqu	13°20'00"	Uranus	Neptune
Gem Lib Aqu	14°06'40"	Uranus	Venus
Gem Lib Aqu	16°20'00"	Uranus	Sun
Gem Lib Aqu	17°00'00"	Uranus	Moon
Gem Lib Aqu	18°06'40"	Uranus	Mars
Gem Lib Aqu	20°00'00"	Jupiter	Jupiter
Gem Lib Aqu	22°00'00"	Jupiter	Saturn
Gem Lib Aqu	23°46'40"	Jupiter	Mercury
Gem Lib Aqu	25°53'20"	Jupiter	Neptune
Gem Lib Aqu	26°40'00"	Jupiter	Venus
Gem Lib Aqu	28°53'20"	Jupiter	Sun
Gem Lib Aqu	29°33'20"	Jupiter	Moon
Can Sco Pis	0°40'00"	Jupiter	Mars
Can Sco Pis	2°33'20"	Jupiter	Uranus
Can Sco Pis	3°20'00"	Saturn	Saturn
Can Sco Pis	5°06'40"	Saturn	Mercury
Can Sco Pis	7°13'20"	Saturn	Neptune
Can Sco Pis	8°00'00"	Saturn	Venus
Can Sco Pis	10°13'20"	Saturn	Sun
Can Sco Pis	10°53'20"	Saturn	Moon
Can Sco Pis	12°00'00"	Saturn	Mars
Can Sco Pis	13°53'20"	Saturn	Uranus
Can Sco Pis	14°40'00"	Saturn	Jupiter
Can Sco Pis	16°40'00"	Mercury	Mercury
Can Sco Pis	18°46'40"	Mercury	Neptune
Can Sco Pis	19°33'20"	Mercury	Venus
Can Sco Pis	21°46'40"	Mercury	Sun
Can Sco Pis	22°26'40"	Mercury	Moon
Can Sco Pis	23°33'20"	Mercury	Mars
Can Sco Pis	25°26'40"	Mercury	Uranus
Can Sco Pis	26°13'20"	Mercury	Jupiter
Can Sco Pis	28°13'20"	Mercury	Saturn

[mikestar13]

PS, here is an example of one place the Bhukti distinctions have seemed to give something degree-specific in the past. Look at the traditional exaltation degrees of the planets:

Moon (3° Taurus) - Jupiter (1°07'-3°07)
Mercury (15° Virgo) - Jupiter (13°47'-15°47')
Venus (27° Pisces) - Jupiter (26°13'-28°13')
Mars (28° Capricorn) - Jupiter (25°40-27°40')
Jupiter (15° Cancer) - Jupiter (14°40'-16°40')
Saturn (21° Libra) - Jupiter (20°00'-22°00')
Sun (19° Aries) - Mars or Uranus (Jupiter doesn't start until 20°00')

For six of the seven exaltation degrees, the Bhukti model has the degree zone (or, in Moon's case, at least half of it) inherently Jupiter, i.e., referring to exaltation itself! I've long found this terribly interesting since first discovering it in the mid-'70s...

This gives me a really weird idea. What if exaltation degrees come from India and are only approximately remembered in the West and it's not a degree but a two-degree wide Jupiter Bhukti that was observed? So maybe Sun's true exaltation is Aries 20 deg 0 - 22 deg 0 directly opposite Saturn's in Libra?

[Jim Eshelman]

This gives me a really weird idea. What if exaltation degrees come from India and are only approximately remembered in the West and it's not a degree but a two-degree wide Jupiter Bhukti that was observed? So maybe Sun's true exaltation is Aries 20 deg 0 - 22 deg 0 directly opposite Saturn's in Libra?

We know they didn't because Indian astrology despite their claims of antiquity - is much younger than Egypto-Babalyonian astrology. Exaltation degrees existed at least from 8th Century BC, while Indian astrology doesn't date at all before 5th C BC, and mostly not until at least 1st Century AD.

But yes, it does make me think that a more "exalted" area would be 20 Aries... provided that these zonings are indeed accurate (a point I suspect to be true, but that nobody has ever proven).

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, if I understand your above CODE spreadsheet my p. Sun & p. Jupiter are in the degree zone of Moon-Jupiter?

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks Jim, if I understand your above CODE spreadsheet my p. Sun & p. Jupiter are in the degree zone of Moon-Jupiter?

Your progressed Sun and Jupiter are, respectively 13°06' Scorpio and 14°05' Scorpio. Looking at the table:

Code: Select all

Can Sco Pis	12°00'00"	Saturn	Mars
Can Sco Pis	13°53'20"	Saturn	Uranus
Can Sco Pis	14°40'00"	Saturn	Jupiter

The area from 12°00'00" to 13°53'20" Scorpio (or Cancer or Pisces) is Saturn major period, Mars minor period. The area from 13°53'20" to 14°40'00" Scorpio (or Cancer or Pisces) Saturn major period, Uranus minor period.

So your Sun is in Mars-of-Saturn, and your Jupiter is in Uranus-of-Saturn.

I suggest you watch progressed Moon. This changes fast enough to see changes every few weeks. It's currently 7°45' Gemini. This Jupiter of Uranus.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, you of course have much more experience with this system than me. Everything right now is going extremely smooth in my life with much exciting activity coming in all kinds of directions.