Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

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Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Sat May 18, 2019 2:40 am

I am not sure if anyone can help on this forum as I realise this will take some time. After a failed IVF cycle and a miscarriage I am so traumatised and reluctant to go through this again without having checked my chart.

I wish I had the skills to do it, but apart from looking at transits and lunar returns I am not sure how to use other predictive tecniques and feel quite overwhelmed and afraid that I may miss something obvious (and ominous)

So far it seems that the month of August or September is the earliest I can start another ivf cycle. This time it will be located in Athens, Greece.

If there is a good soul who can help me shed some clarity as to the best time to face another cycle, I would be eternally grateful.

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat May 18, 2019 8:15 am

I can give you a broad approach, though in the near future I won't have a chance to do anything sufficiently thorough so perhaps someone else can help?

Broadly, it's a matter of looking at the larger cycles to get the positives you want and to avoid the negatives then narrow it to a tighter region,then fine-tune.

You said you were looking at Athens. Your Solar Return for Athens has nothing particular happening. (There are always the lunar aspects, of course.) It isn't likely that a major life event will occur without representation in the Solar, so you might at least try to set the SSR up with the best indications as a start. Looking at an astro-map for Europe, my strongest suggestion is to get away from the area around London and due south (which includes western France and eastern Spain: this is the line where you have Mars square Midheaven. Mars squares Uranus, and the Uranus line is the longitude of mid-France.

I don't know how much you can travel for your birthday. To get a really spectacular chart (say, putting the exact Moon-Jupiter square angular), you;d have to go to, say, eastern Turkey.or western Russia. (Moscow puts Mon, Jupiter, and Neptune on angles.)

But if you can't do "perfection," then "really good" will do - and you get "really good" in the new SSR if you avoid the worst stuff and let that exact Moon-Jupiter square carry the day. Anyplace from, say, Germany or Italy eastward has cleared the other factors.

After that, look at transits and progressions to avoid a time when seriously bad stuff appears and optimize good cycles. When you get a general range, start running your lunar and demi-lunar returns for Athens and look for an optimal time.
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 am

Thank you Jim, that was eye opening. Somehow I was confusing the relocated natal chart with the SSR chart, I was under the impression that even if I travelled on my birthday, I would still have the 2019 SSR in Southampton once I returned home. From what you write I gather that it is not the same.

I could go back to visit my parents on my birthday for the weekend, I would be in Florence, Italy. This way uranus, mars foreground will not feature in my next SSR.

After this, would you look at transits to natal or transits to the SSR? What progressions do you use? Secondary? I have never looked at a progressed chart before

THANK YOU for the warning, I wasn't planning to go anywhere but I will definitely NOT be in the UK for my birthday this year

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat May 18, 2019 11:32 am

Progressions are done at a rate of a day for a year, meaning they use the 60th day after birth to predict the 60th year after birth. So unless you were moved to a new place before your first birthday, you would always do them for your birthplace.
There's a somewhat confused thread with Jim explaining Secondary Progressions with angles using the Solar Arc. I forget if you have Solar Fire or use astro.com, but there are instuctions for both.
If you would go through that and come back with your questions, it would be easier for others to help you. The whole section on Transits and Progressons is probably worth at least a skim to get an overview. Progressed planets are read pretty much just like transiting planets.

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat May 18, 2019 11:40 am

You're welcome, but... wait, the Fierenze Midheaven of your SSR is 19°47' Aries, so it pouts your NATAL Mars-Saturn on an angle. You should avoid there also. (Be sure to check the full SSR for any location you pick.)

As for location, the basic idea has never changed - we've always held that the SSR is valid where it sets up, but then relocates back to wherever you move during the year - but I've been adjusting my sense of how much weight to give to either. A few presidential contenders visited somewhere on their birthday and that chart seemed to stick for the duration (I think Obama was in Chicago one year for his birthday and picked up a Jupiter, that sort of thing). Marion and I had been traveling on our birthdays and picking good spots, figuring that even if the SSR reverted to Los Angeles angles when we came home, at least we'd have a good birthday. But I've come to think it's more, truly like a natal chart that relocates.

You never lose your natal chart. It's always the primary voice of your being throughout your life. But when you relocate, your natal shifts to add additional elements that are distinctive to that location.

I've come to think the Solar Return works the same way (though I'll be able to tell you better come October when my current SSR is over.) Set up my current (October 2018) SSR for both Los Angeles and Milwaukee. The LA chart is quite severe. I think there's a reasonable chance that if I'd had my birthday in LA, I'd be dead now, or at least have had very serious health problems. Instead, I picked the best place in the country - which turned out to be Milwaukee - and we took an awesome two-week vacation, half of which was in Milwaukee over my birthday. Don't forget to add natal planets for the full effect.

So I have a Solar Return that first set up in Milwaukee - that's its "natal" - and then I came back to LA where the chart is as severe as any I can recall seeing. Bottom line, so far the year has been quite good. Health issues have been minor (a skin condition from an allergic reaction on the trip) that took three months to shake, etc. But all the big health stuff is better than it's been in years. I'm getting married in 9 days - that's the Milwaukee chart talking, not the LA one! (The Saturn rising for LA has probably been the "add-on layer" of financial drain, e.g., essentially wiping out my liquid net worth to pay for the wedding.)

There is still a third of the year to go, but the first two-thirds have clearly been shown primarily by the Milwaukee chart.

In the worst case, picking a location for your SSR doesn't make things worse - and you get a nice birthday out of it :)
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Sun May 19, 2019 2:11 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:40 am
You're welcome, but... wait, the Fierenze Midheaven of your SSR is 19°47' Aries, so it pouts your NATAL Mars-Saturn on an angle. You should avoid there also. (Be sure to check the full SSR for any location you pick.)
Oh no!!!!! :( It was the only place I could travel to, for the only reason that I am broke, and my parents would pay for my flight to go see them as a birthday present. This really sucks. So now I am stuck between two bad options

1. Stay in Southampton with a Mars-Uranus SSR
2. Go to Florence and have my natal Mars-Saturn become angular, but no mars-uranus in the SSR. However I would still pick up the angular Mars-Uranus once I return to Southampton, plus I would have picked up Saturn as well to make matters worse. Is my understanding correct?

I know the effects of Mars-Saturn in my life, nothing has been easy to achieve fore me. At least it is not angular in my natal chart, and I don't want that angular.

Which of these options is likey to give better prospects for pregnancy? Which one is the lesser of two evils?
Florence 2019SSR.png

Jim, I was very intrigued by what you have written regarding your SSR in Los Angeles. Which indicators led you to fear that you'd probably be dead under this SSR in Los Angeles?

Congratulations on your wedding, what a different tone for an otherwise ominous SSR!
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun May 19, 2019 12:09 pm

OK, if I had to pick, I'd choose Southampton. Several little reason that I hope make it the right decision. If nothing else (even if the two locations are otherwise equal), exposing yourself to the painful family drama is punishment you don;t need and that won't help your stress levels. Also, I think (but don't know) that malefics on IC are more "family disrupting" than the other angles. Finally, even though Mars-Uranus has symbolism consistent with miscarriage, the simpler truth is that Mars-Uranus is nowhere near as bad as Mars-Saturn.

Time then to focus on having the best birthday possible to build good energy around it, loving your husband, looking for the intermediate patterns like transits and lunar returns to pick a time and place with the best other factors.
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Tue May 21, 2019 12:01 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:09 pm
Also, I think (but don't know) that malefics on IC are more "family disrupting" than the other angles. Finally, even though Mars-Uranus has symbolism consistent with miscarriage, the simpler truth is that Mars-Uranus is nowhere near as bad as Mars-Saturn.
I have had a consultation with the clinic today, and they want to see us for further investigation at the end of June, beginning of July before they even consider the best IVF treatment plan.

Today I got good news, I have been given a Saturday job I applied for last week, so by the end of June I should have just enough money to travel to Athens for the investigations.

Which brings up the next question...... Are my malefics on the IC if I spend my birthday in Athens this year? (Do you do a biwheel chart natal and SSR to see that Jim? I have been trying to figure how how you spotted that -- apart from years of experience lol) Do you always look at the mundoscope to see angular planets?

From the Athens SSR chart I see that my midheaven is not in Aries anymore but Taurus. If my natal malefics are no longer angular for Athens, it may be worth the extra expense to travel on a weekend and get out of the UK?

Also... I have noticed that this year my SSR kicks in a day after my birthday. Do I have to be in Athens on July 7 at 10.04.52 am, when my 2019 SSR becomes operational, to have the effects of the relocated return? (I am thinking of the return flight..)
Athens SSR.png
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by SteveS » Tue May 21, 2019 2:39 pm

Freya,
You will receive another dynamic partile transit of Saturn to your Natal Moon and Natal Venus in Dec 2019 and early Jan 2020, which was exactly the same partile Saturn transit that timed your recent miscarriage. I suggest you do not consider becoming pregnant again until AFTER t. Saturn clears these dynamic partile transits to your Natal Moon-- Venus in Dec 2019/Jan 2020.

It is obvious to me your Natal Moon partile 90 your Natal Venus has much to do with your strong desires to become pregnant/motherhood. Some key sentences from Ebertin’s Book COSI on Moon-Venus symbolism:
Biological Correspondence: The female capability of conception.
Social Correspondence: Loving women, mothers, (also the expectant mothers)…
Probable Manifestations: (+) …the desire for motherhood.
Using Lunar Returns for electing good possible times for conception, I see a possible good time for you to conceive again with your Demi-Lunar (DSLR) on April 22 2020 in Athens Greece, if your biological cycle is proper for conception by IVF, with Doctor’s consent. Below is a link to your DSLR beginning on Wednesday April 22, 2020, 3:11:42 AM in Athens Greece. Anytime during the day on April 22 AFTER 3:11:42 AM is fine for the IVF procedure, imo.

Note DSLR Venus is partile cnj DSLR IC in Athens, setting-up a strong Venus theme for your DSLR. Also Note t. Mercury will partile cnj your DSLR Moon during the day on April 22, as well as partile 90 your Natal Venus. This t. Mercury should set-up an excellent time to receive good/harmonious news about conception, and also-- an excellent time for travel plans, imo.

Please understand/know: your Doctor’s consent should supersede with priority over my astrological analysis.

April 22, 2020 Demi Sidereal Lunar Return (DSLR):
https://imgur.com/LYPNh7n

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Tue May 21, 2019 3:36 pm

I agree with Steve.

You'll also have more money saved up so that will help relieve that stress and will maybe be able to set up for more than one round of IVF so you aren't on such a rollercoaster.

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue May 21, 2019 3:51 pm

I agree with Steve about waiting until after the final Saturn transits before trying again, though I see no reason not to do investigation, medical tests, inquiries, etc. to get information and help plan for the future. - You can also simply take the chance to enjoy a vacation in Athens :)
Freya wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:01 pm
Which brings up the next question...... Are my malefics on the IC if I spend my birthday in Athens this year? (Do you do a biwheel chart natal and SSR to see that Jim? I have been trying to figure how how you spotted that -- apart from years of experience lol) Do you always look at the mundoscope to see angular planets?
You have neither natal nor transiting planets on angles in your next SSR for Athens. (Natal Uranus is barely foreground, but not really important.) In the absence of these, Moon's aspects are most important and those include a 0°09' square to Jupiter and a 2°28' opposition to Neptune.

Yes, you can look at this as a biwheel, that's the recommended way (with natal planets always on the inside ring and SSR planet on the outside). Here's a special Solar Fire wheel design to make that easy:
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13

Yes, ultimately we check the mundoscope for angularity. That's easy to do with the SSR planets. It's not easy to do for natal planets. You can estimate them closely enough by the zodiac, but we have a spreadsheet for making the calculations when you want to do refined, detailed work.
If my natal malefics are no longer angular for Athens, it may be worth the extra expense to travel on a weekend and get out of the UK?
It would have the advantage of getting away from the malefics. You would still encounter them when you went back, and there aren't any strong angularities in Athens to outweigh them, but I can't help but think it would take some pressure off.

What's really interesting to me is that your Athens SSR angles are almost precisely the same as your natal chart angles. There is something "at home with yourself" in the pattern. Athens SSR MC is 2°04' Taurus, your natal MC 2°16' Taurus. (The two Ascendants are about 4° apart.) This is unusual (one time in 360).
Also... I have noticed that this year my SSR kicks in a day after my birthday. Do I have to be in Athens on July 7 at 10.04.52 am, when my 2019 SSR becomes operational, to have the effects of the relocated return? (I am thinking of the return flight..)
To get the effect of locking this in as your Solar Return, you would need to be in Athens July 7, 10:04 AM EEDT. At least for that minute. If you could swing 30 more hours there, that would secure it even better; but, at least at that time.
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Thu May 23, 2019 10:56 am

THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart Jim and Steve. You have given me precious, life-changeing information that I will treasure for months to come.

I am now going to Greece for tests from July 4 to 8, thus changing my 2019 SSR THANKS TO YOU GUYS. I really don't know how to express my gratitude. I will also avoid December/January.

Curiously, I thought that a birth should also be reflected in my husband's chart. He was born on August 27 1972 in Southampton, England at 14.15

He has Jupiter, Venus and Neptune foreground this coming SSR. Not sure what to make of Neptune, but it seems that he has a very good SSR, matching the symbolism of a birth (but I may be wrong!)
Husband 2019SSR.png

I am curious about something.... does being in a location immediately before the new SSR secure it in any way?
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:53 am

So it looks like the doctor does't want to test my husband around my birthday, as it is too early. I will be staying in the UK with Mars/Uranus in my next SSR :?

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:05 am

Just watched the clock announce my new SSR....

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:04 am

SteveS wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 2:39 pm
Freya,
You will receive another dynamic partile transit of Saturn to your Natal Moon and Natal Venus in Dec 2019 and early Jan 2020, which was exactly the same partile Saturn transit that timed your recent miscarriage. I suggest you do not consider becoming pregnant again until AFTER t. Saturn clears these dynamic partile transits to your Natal Moon-- Venus in Dec 2019/Jan 2020.

It is obvious to me your Natal Moon partile 90 your Natal Venus has much to do with your strong desires to become pregnant/motherhood. Some key sentences from Ebertin’s Book COSI on Moon-Venus symbolism:
Biological Correspondence: The female capability of conception.
Social Correspondence: Loving women, mothers, (also the expectant mothers)…
Probable Manifestations: (+) …the desire for motherhood.
Using Lunar Returns for electing good possible times for conception, I see a possible good time for you to conceive again with your Demi-Lunar (DSLR) on April 22 2020 in Athens Greece, if your biological cycle is proper for conception by IVF, with Doctor’s consent. Below is a link to your DSLR beginning on Wednesday April 22, 2020, 3:11:42 AM in Athens Greece. Anytime during the day on April 22 AFTER 3:11:42 AM is fine for the IVF procedure, imo.

Note DSLR Venus is partile cnj DSLR IC in Athens, setting-up a strong Venus theme for your DSLR. Also Note t. Mercury will partile cnj your DSLR Moon during the day on April 22, as well as partile 90 your Natal Venus. This t. Mercury should set-up an excellent time to receive good/harmonious news about conception, and also-- an excellent time for travel plans, imo.

Please understand/know: your Doctor’s consent should supersede with priority over my astrological analysis.

April 22, 2020 Demi Sidereal Lunar Return (DSLR):
https://imgur.com/LYPNh7n
Trying to figure out the best time after Saturn clears in January as it will be done in two phases. How soon after Saturn exits the Moon will I be “safe” from its negative effects?

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by SteveS » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:46 am

Freya wrote/asked:
Trying to figure out the best time after Saturn clears in January as it will be done in two phases. How soon after Saturn exits the Moon will I be “safe” from its negative effects?
By Feb 1, 2020, t. Saturn will be 0 Cap which will allow plenty separative orb (5 degrees) to clear partile 90/180 your natal Moon-Venus for its last partile hit in early Jan. The main timing objective is to get t. Saturn to clear being in partile orb (1 degree or less), squaring your natal Moon at 25,50 Virgo, and opposing your natal Venus at 25,31 Gem. On Jan 5 t. Saturn is 26,54 Sag and moving fast and you should then begin to start feeling t. Saturn releasing its influence to your important partile 90/180 natal Moon-Venus.

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:54 pm

Steve thank you for clarifying... I am definitely not attempting anything before then. I hope this nasty transit won’t affect my job... is it a potential symbolisms of moon-venus-Saturn? It doesn’t seem on the face of it but I don’t know for sure
I am definitely feeling my solar moon solar neptune contact, I have just been let go from my second job due to lack of funds. If it had been my main income (the job I got in July during my uranus transit) it would have totally destroyed me

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by SteveS » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:30 pm

Freya wrote:
I hope this nasty transit won’t affect my job... is it a potential symbolisms of moon-venus-Saturn? It doesn’t seem on the face of it but I don’t know for sure.
Freya, no astrologer knows for sure how your last t. Saturn hit to your Natal Moon-Venus axis will exactly manifest near the end of the year. But we damn sure know how it manifested with it's partile hit last Spring---it timed your miscarriage. On the days it is partile near the end of the year, I am sure it will create some kind of downer, but this time you will have the foreknowledge of this Saturn transit and will be in a much better position to deal with the influences of this Saturn transit. Just be assured when you experience this last Saturn transit to your Moon-Venus near the end of the year, you will not have to worry about another hit for years. The 'Principle' of Moon -Venus is:
The feeling of love, devotion.
So, just try to do things which may minimize any types of damage pertaining to 'feelings of love'. I feel things will be ok on the jobs front. Use as much 'self-control' as possible to allow this partile Saturn transit to pass with as little damage as possible pertaining to 'feelings of love'. And when it passes you will be able to forge ahead with pregnancy plans if you so desire. The wisdom of astrology is gained when we know what planetary influences are and how to deal with them as best you can with foresight.

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:15 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:51 pm
What's really interesting to me is that your Athens SSR angles are almost precisely the same as your natal chart angles. There is something "at home with yourself" in the pattern. Athens SSR MC is 2°04' Taurus, your natal MC 2°16' Taurus. (The two Ascendants are about 4° apart.) This is unusual (one time in 360
Jim, I have just returned from Athens and you nailed it. It feels like home. I felt sadness leaving and now longing to go back. The people spoke to me in Greek because I look mediterranean and when they realise that I can’t speak Greek, they spoke to me in Italian!! I have never been addressed in my native language outside of Italy, I have always used English as my “passport” language and it felt surreal. The people looked very much like my mother’s side of the family (from Sicily). I felt at home and I had the feeling I have lived there before, in another life (sounds like I have gone off the deep end) but I genuinely felt I was remembering a place I had already lived in for a long time. Needless to say I left a piece of my heart there.

I note jupiter-moon and neptune in my current SLR matching my feelings right now

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:20 pm

Sounds like a wonderful time. :D
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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:36 pm

Maybe you should start learning Greek. :)

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by SteveS » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:40 pm

Freya wrote:
I note jupiter-moon and neptune in my current SLR matching my feelings right now
:) I can relate to those same good feelings for i have moon-jupiter-neptune prominent in my SSR. I am glad you feel at home in Athens and wish you the best there for your possible IVF objectives.

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:53 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:36 pm
Maybe you should start learning Greek. :)
Lol you read my mind I have just started!

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Freya » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:50 am

Based on my cycle, I will go to Greece between the 23 to the 29 of January. It is during the 5 days from the 28/29 onwards that the eggs will be fertilised. If and only if the embryos reach a blastocyst stage (day 5) the cycle will be a success. They will freeze them and I go back a month or two later for embryo transfer (and hopefully a positive pregnancy test two weeks later if implantation occurs)

This is phase 1, and it is crucial as last time none of our embryos made it that far, they stopped at the morula stage.

Has Saturn cleared by then? As the success of the cycle is based on my husband’s sperm, will the quality be reflected in his SLR? His September one for this failed cycle had Saturn foreground

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Re: Electing a Favorable Time for IVF Pregnancy

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:17 am

Freya wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:50 am
Has Saturn cleared by then? As the success of the cycle is based on my husband’s sperm, will the quality be reflected in his SLR? His September one for this failed cycle had Saturn foreground
Saturn January 23, 2020 is 29° Sagittarius, quite clear of your 25° Virgo-Gemini Moon-Venus square. It doesn't come back. Saturn last leaves partile orb of your Moon January 4.

Jupiter is 19° Sagittarius on March 3, your Day 5. On first impression (without running other charts), this seems optimistic. Jupiter exactly opposes your Sun.

I'm not sure whether your husband's sperm quality will be reflected, though his emotional state may be. I don't think sperm quality is that volatile. Other than long-term arcs like aging, it's affected by choices the man makes - all those pieces of advice they give you to follow including diet, rest, etc. - and by general health matters but, other than short-term factors mostly under his control, I don't think it varies widely. If the SLR is a reflection, his January 30 SLR for Southampton has Uranus on EP, his Neptune on Dsc, so there is strong emotion and excitement though I can't tell what kind. (Or should this be done for Athens?)

Your January 17 SLR for Southampton has Venus exactly on IC, an excellent sign. Your Mars-Saturn is rising (not as close as the Venus), so take care of yourself - but the Venus is the strongest single indicator. Your January 31 Demi-SLR for Athens is pretty boring other than technical stuff - mostly Mercury rising - but for Southampton has natal Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars tightly angular and transiting Jupiter rising opposite your Sun, which I take to be very positive but with some separate concern. Again, I'm not sure what location is best, based on your timing.
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