Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

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Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:01 am

Before I discovered Sidereal Astrology, I studied a-lot of Robert Hand’s material on Natal Midpoints, which imo, offer possible important deleinations for a Natal Chart, when not seen/understood with Sidereal Astrology alone. In Robert Hand’s book ‘Horoscope Symbols’ he writes in the following link below about weighing the strengths of certain midpoints. Most modern Astrological Computer Programs have ‘Midpoint Tree lists’ for all the Midpoint point structures in a Natal Chart, and will identify the Direct Midpoints in a Natal Chart with a ‘D’ besides a Direct Midpoint. Robert Hand considered identification of Direct Midpoints in a Natal Chart important. As a companion book for reading about certain tones for a Direct Natal Midpoint, Reinhold Ebertin's book, 'Combinations of Stellar Influences' is a most excellent book to have on your astrological bookshelf.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:59 am

FWIW, I agree with the spirit of all of this, and disagree quite sharply with some of it, especially the first point below.

1. I see no difference between direct and indirect midpoints but draw the line one level lower, at squares to midpoints. To be clear, "direct midpoint contact" means conjunction or opposition to a midpoint (since there is no difference between the two). Squares to midpoints aren't direct, but they are of seemingly identical strength to the conjunctions and oppositions. (Semi-squares and sesqui-squares to midpoints are quite valid, though you can feel a sharp drop-off in their effect, so I only use them when I need additional information.)

2. I agree that midpoints that involve the personal points (in this case meaning Sun, Moon, MC, Asc) stand out as more important. This is probably for the same reason that Sun and Moon aspects stand out as more important: the solar and lunar psychological functions are more fundamental to the whole of our character. - This should not be taken to mean that these are the only ones we should examine, though.

2A. The above is a basic Ebertin teaching, and it goes back to Uranian astrology. The teaching is that midpoint contacts (or wider "planetary pictures") are most important when a personal point is involved. Cosmobiology (Ebertin school) considers that personal points are Sun, Moon, MC, Asc, but also Moon's Node. Uranian astrology (Witte school) uses these five plus the Vernal Point (which they call the Aries Point). I limit "personal points" to Sun, Moon, MC, Asc.

2B. Whether, as Rob says, the most important midpoint structures are "as important as ajor aspects in influencing the chart," is debatable - draw your own conclusion. I agree with him that they are important, but (using my own chart as an example) there simply are no midpoints that are going to reach the importance of my closest ecliptical aspects in describing my character - nothing in midpoints that approaches, say, my Venus-Pluto 13' square, my Jupiter-Uranus 17' conjunction, my 2° Mars-Neptune square or < 2° Venus trines to Jupiter and Uranus, or my 2° Moon-Mars sextile. These strong midpoint structures are big deals but not that big of a deal.

3. I agree that midpoints of points already in aspect are particularly important. I don't exactly think it's because anything aspecting that midpoint is also in aspect to the other two. Therefore, midpoint structures often help sort out how to read multi-planet aspect combinations. (E.g. from my own chart: With Mars widely opposite Jupiter and Uranus, it's not that my Ma/Ju and Ju/Ur aspects are that unusually important; but, with Neptune square all three of them, it makes Ne = Ma/Ju = Ma/Ur quite important. A grand trine or split-trine often will be resolvable as a midpoint structure.)
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:15 am

For comparison to what is more easily viewable as aspects in my chart, here are the direct midpoint structures within 1° in my chart. (Structures with a personal point involved are in bold.) I don't think anything here comes up to the standard of the closest aspects in my chart except maybe Mo = Su/Pl.

Mo = Su/Pl
Ma = Mo/Ve
Sa = Mo/MC
Me = Ve/Ne
Ne = Ma/Ju = Ma/Ur = Ve/As
Pl = Ne/MC - Ur/As = Ju/As

I think these should be taken mundanely and not ecliptically, so shouldn't be taken so seriously:

As = Ve/Ur = Ve/Ju = Ne/Pl

Mundanely, there are no partile direct midpoints to Ascendant or Midheaven.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:03 pm

BTW, you can learn to interpret these from the planet-pair principles here. (You can also look them up in Ebertin, as long as ignore anything with Pluto.)
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2089#p15282

Thus, my Mo = Su/Pl would be Moon tied to this idea:
Sun-Pluto Authentic self, solitude, eccentric, the exception

My Ma = Mo/Ve is just an expression of the split-trine among them, but is also interpretable as Mars aspecting this idea (similar to thinking Moon-Mars + Venus-Mars):
Moon-Venus Female essence, nurture, love instinct

And so forth.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:46 pm

Thanks Jim for your personal experience with your Natal Midpoints. I followed and studied Hand's Midpoint guidelines with some solid hits with my Natal-- but some--no hits. I will later list the ones which were hits, and try to dig out my old 70,s cassette tapes with Hand's example Natal Midpoints for possible further discussions. I do remember Hand saying that Midpoint structures in our Natal help determine a more refined truer cosmic state for our Natal Planets. Should make for some interesting discussion for possible individual learning curves with member's Natal Midpoints.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:21 pm

I thought I would go over some of my Natal Midpoints, rating the strength of them according to Robert Hand’s above guidelines. FWIW, I have seen enough evidence in my own personal life using Ebertin’s ‘Combination of Stellar Influences’ (COSI) with his Midpoint deleinations that we should not ignore Direct Mundo Natal Midpoints with the primary angles of our Natal Chart, no matter where they are located on the mundane wheel. I am 70 years old, so I have plenty of hindsight to examine my life very closely in determining the validity of my Natal Midpoints with COSI. Of course what I perceive as valid with my life may not for someone else life with this astrological exercise. I will use a 1,30 degree orb as recommended by Robert Hand, but much prefer Sidereal Astrology’s guideline: “Partile (1 degree or less) reign supreme.

1: I have only one Direct Mundo Midpoint with my primary Natal Chart angles and it is with my Natal MC. It is Venus/Mars=MC, 0,08. This same Midpoint does not exist in the Eclipto Midpoint with my Natal MC.
This Midpoint reads out with COSI:
Pronounced sensuality, in individual attitude to physical love. The desire to become one with the other in soul and body, the establishment of a sex-relationship (marriage).
I have been married 47 years to the same mate, and our sexual compatibility has gone far for the ‘establishment’ of this 'marriage'.

too be continued

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:48 am

Robert Hand teaches Direct Midpoints in a Natal are very important. I began my Direct Natal Midpoint analysis with my only Direct Midpoint I have with a primary natal angle (MC), because when I discovered Sidereal Astrology it clearly taught me the vast importance of chart angles.
My next Natal Midpoint I rate as the 2nd (very close to 1st) most important Natal Midpoint in my life is very obvious to me with its life manifestations. ASC/MC=NEPTUNE (1,11-Mundo)!
Some of the prominent European astrologers look upon potential Midpoints involving the ASC/MC midpoint as the most important in the entire chart. Judging by my life, I certainly agree with certain European astrologers about the ASC/MC Midpoint as being very important. In fact, using Jim’s/Bradley’s guidelines for Sidereal Mundane Astrology, I have only seen one Sidereal Mundane Astrology chart which nailed the timing for the breakout of War in Europe in Sept 1939-- which led to World War 11. The following is a link to London’s 1939 Cansolar which is the only Mundane astrological chart I have analyzed out of many which clearly explains to any type of mundane astrologer the timing for the beginning of WW11.
Look at the DIRECT ASC/MC Midpoint of London’s 1939 Cansolar! The partile Moon/Pluto cnj, partile 180 Mars, partile 90 Saturn (T-SQUARE) sits partile on the entire axis of the ASC/MC Midpoint!

https://imgur.com/a/bF0WNAj

So, what has my Direct Natal Midpoint of ASC/MC=NEPTUNE manifested in my Life? When my Mother had be as a baby, she lived/worked next to a Drive-Inn Theater. Beginning as a baby my life became dominated by film/movies. I was virtually born and raised in this Theater environment! My bread and butter for my entire life career has been provided to me by this Neptunian Theater Environment of an illusion/film being projected on a large screen. I absolutely loved this Theater environment, my life became addicted to environment, and I terribly miss this environment in my retired/secluded life, as anyone who is deprived of an addiction. My entire working life has been dependent (Neptune) on the Theater business.

But there is much more to this Neptunian Direct Midpoint of ASC/MC dominating key aspects for my life! All my life I have been led to very high grade psychics, who have always provided me with key information which my mind/eyes could not see or figure out. My natal Mercury is cnj natal Neptune in the sign Virgo! Psychics have always been able to provide me with acute-key details that allowed me to see in detail (Mercury/Virgo) how to figure out what I could not figure out with my ordinary mind/sight. Unless we are dealing with the creative arts, Neptune is a very tricky-foggy energy to deal with in successful measures. It seemed, in my business world I would always reach a critical point where I could not see what I needed to know in order to make the correct business decision in order to literally survive life, without finding myself on the streets living in cardboard box. In fact, one of the most critical times in my life where I was faced with life or death with my business career with Theaters, came when I consulted a psychic with thoughts my business career was over—finished! The psychic told me if I consulted the bankrupt attorney which was handling the bankruptcy of a corporation which was employing my services, I would be able to buy for a song a closed- down Theater and reopen it which would become very successful. Psychics have always been able to tell me critical details which has allowed me to react in a successful way by “seeing” through Neptune’s eternal ‘fog bank’ which at times surrounds us in very confusing moments in our lives. The sight of astrology at times allows us to see things which are not visible to a non-astrologer. In fact, many astrologers believe Neptune is prominently active in Natal Charts of astrologers.

There has been another huge Neptunian factor in my life, and that is the fact in the late 60’s, I experimented with every known psychedelic drug known at this time in the USA, a highly Neptunian life trait explained by my ASC/MC=Neptune Direct Midpoint—but this is entirely another story.

too be continued with other direct natal midpoints.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:58 am

*Important addition to this thread:
Since I have started this thread, Jim has pointed something out to me about the position of my Natal Neptune which I never fully realized from a Sidereal Astrology standpoint. My Natal Neptune falls partile cnj my Natal South Point, a 90 degree point to the Vertex. Up to this point in my life, I have always related very important Neptunian things in my life as manifesting with my Neptune falling 1,11 cnj the ASC/MC, based primarily on a statement by Robert Hand, which as far as I know was originated in the early German Schools about Midpoints. Robert Hand states about the ASC/MC on page 179 of his book ‘Horoscope Symbols’:
A very important point in the horoscope…
This ‘important point in the horoscope’ (ASC/MC) contradicts the teachings of Sidereal Astrology which teaches this ASC/MC is the weakest point in a Horoscope. So, we have a contradiction here between two astrological schools of thought.
But, Jim and his Sidereal Astrology teachings from the late 70’s point out something else very important to me about the ecliptical position of my Natal Neptune, which helps me better understand this contradiction with the ASC/MC. Jim states:
Planets conjunct, opposite, or square the Vertex are highly accented, but any actual manifestations seem to be unconsciously motivated. It is this component of unconsciousness which gives the “fated” or “predestined” quality which other writers have associated with Vertex sponsored occurrences.
My Natal Neptune falls partile square my Natal Vertex, labeled the South Point (SP), and very important Neptunian things in my life have manifested, the most important Neptunian event in my life being I was born as a baby living in a house next to a Drive-Inn Movie Theater. Talk about being “fated”—it don’t get more “fated” than being born into something (Movie Theater business environment) which becomes a most dominating influence in your entire life, and definitely was an 'unconscious motivated' influence in my life. :)
Last edited by SteveS on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by James Condor » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:12 am

Could you please do a midpoint of my chart?

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:17 am

James asked:
Could you please do a midpoint of my chart?
James,
With my understanding of Midpoints from Robert Hand’s guidelines, AND combined with a Siderealist who did a-lot of work with Midpoints (much more than me), without a doubt, the most important Midpoint in your entire Natal Chart is the Mundo Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars=MC. Do I remember correctly you have experienced an environment of “quarrels” in your work place during your career?
Ebertin in his book on Midpoints writes about the:
“Negative Probable Manifestations” of the combo Moon/Mars:
The tendency to become involved in quarrels, the demonstration of intolerance, marital differences.

I will get back with you later on the rest of your Direct Midpoints.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:06 am

On astro.com on the Free or Extended Chart Drawing page, you can choose (or enter) birth data, and choose the chart type (natal, solar, progressed, etc.) and chart drawing style (Web Default style, Astrodienst style, etc).
Under chart drawing style in the drop down box, choose Ebertin style (w. midpoints).
This will get you an odd looking chart (don't ask me!) with the usual options for PDF Drawing( for subscribers) and PDF additional tables. Click on the additional tables and viola!
A PDF (you can print out) with the distances the planets were from the earth when you were born, a table with your midpoint structures and aspects, another table with your midpoints in zodiacial order, and your midpoints in 90° order.

I'm pretty sure if you got your data entered correctly and chose the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa, these will be correct. Steve can help you interpret them.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:34 am

James Condor wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:12 am
Could you please do a midpoint of my chart?
Here are the midpoint structures I consider most important in your chart. Those with unusual importance are bolded - these are involve a luminary or angle and include nearly all your 90° series midpoints within 1°!

Sa = Mo/Ne = Mo/Ju = Mo/Me
Ve = Su/Pl
Ne = Su/Ve = Su/Ur = Me/Ju
Mo = Su/Ur = Me/Ne
Me = Su/Ur = Su/Ve
Angles = Mo/Ma

(I list this as "Angles" rather than MC vs. Asc because MC and Asc are always 90°00' apart in the mundoscope. Any midpoint that hits one also hits the other. Since Moon and Mars are foreground, one is even more inclined to see them within 0°07' of average angularity to the horizon, as to read it as their midpoint being 0°07' from MC-IC. It's all the same, ultimately.)
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by James Condor » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:57 pm

Thank you guys. I know not what any of this means yet.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:30 pm

James wrote:
I know not what any of this means yet.
It's a method to probe deeper into the natal chart to help understand certain midpoint aspects that may explain certain specific manifestations about one's life which may not be explained by a Sidereal Astrology analysis, or it can be a method to reinforce a certain aspect in your natal chart explained by the core principles of Sidereal Astrology. For example: In your Natal Chart your Natal Mars is the most angular planet, Mundo 4,22 cnj Dsc. Using a midpoint analysis with Hand's method, your Midpoint of Moon/Mars is wired in big time to your primary natal chart angles. This offers another method to isolate a very pronounced (angular) Mars theme in your life, blended in with the rest of your natal chart aspects. It is an interesting method for Natal Chart analysis, particularly when an important trait of a life cannot be explained by Sidereal Astrology. Most of the time, Sidereal Astrology will explain the main traits of one's life traits.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:27 am

Not that I have paid much attention, but shouldn't we be monitoring our direct midpoints particularly with lights and angles with transits, progressions, and solar arcs? I think this was a mainstay in the German Schools for Midpoints. Is this a fairly easy task to monitor with Solarfire? I mainly ask this question because of a-lot of interest with forum members involving relationships.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:41 am

I always felt it was just too damn much information when we already have an abundance of information.

For a while I watched transits to my Sun-Moon midpoint as a starting point and it never seemed to go anywhere.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:37 am

Jim wrote:
I always felt it was just too damn much information when we already have an abundance of information.
I agree Jim! When I was first introduced to Midpoints back in the late 70’s I was overwhelmed with what Hand was doing with Midpoints. He gave many examples (I wish I could find these examples) using transits, progressions, and solar arcs to direct midpoints. The main reason I was overwhelmed it was pre-computer days and Hand was giving these examples using dials which I absolutely never understood how to use, therefore I never examined with research examples. Then, by the time the PC landed on my desk, I had forgot to function what I heard on tapes Hand was doing with transits, progressions, and solar arcs to these midpoints. I know this: In my life I can account for the big events in my life with the mainstay of Sidereal Astrology, and that should tell me I have not missed much with Hand’s original teachings about Midpoints. But Hand writes from his book Horoscope Symbols:
…suffice it to say midpoints work. I use midpoints because they often give information that would not otherwise be available in the chart. Without them, I have seen important characteristics of a person and events in life overlooked. Midpoints that are combined with a single planet in the chart become part of that planet’s total expression. Whatever transit, progression, or solar arc direction sets that planet off in later life sets off the midpoints attached to it as well. Therefore, an understanding of the midpoints attached to a planet can tell a great deal about how that planet operates in a person’s life.
Now that I have found and quoted this passage of words from Hand—what this is telling me—is more than likely the only astrologers to actually investigate and research direct midpoints with a natal planet involving transits, progressions and solar arcs with AA charts-- were the Astrologers who were very proficient with the ‘various dials’ from the German Schools-- which were in a sense the nearest thing to a computer back in Hand’s prime teaching days. But still I don’t think the Sidereal Astrologer has missed that much except maybe some finer details pertaining to the cosmic state of a natal planet only involved in a direct midpoint.

Jim wrote:
For a while I watched transits to my Sun-Moon midpoint as a starting point and it never seemed to go anywhere.


Me too Jim, I know exactly what you mean. Maybe Hand is only talking about a natal planet that is involved in a direct midpoint with two more natal planets, I don't know. This would mean our important Moon-Sun Midpoint would have to make a direct midpoint with a 3rd factor (planet), before a transit, progression, or solar arc timed a meaningful life event or incident, again I don't know because I have never researched these type situations with a Natal Chart. I look at my life and again I don't feel like I have missed any meaningful important event by not functioning what the German Schools did with their Dials.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Danica » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:38 pm

SteveS wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:37 am
…suffice it to say midpoints work. I use midpoints because they often give information that would not otherwise be available in the chart. Without them, I have seen important characteristics of a person and events in life overlooked. Midpoints that are combined with a single planet in the chart become part of that planet’s total expression. Whatever transit, progression, or solar arc direction sets that planet off in later life sets off the midpoints attached to it as well. Therefore, an understanding of the midpoints attached to a planet can tell a great deal about how that planet operates in a person’s life.
Maybe Hand is only talking about a natal planet that is involved in a direct midpoint with two more natal planets, I don't know. This would mean our important Moon-Sun Midpoint would have to make a direct midpoint with a 3rd factor (planet), before a transit, progression, or solar arc timed a meaningful life event or incident
Yes, I think that's what he's saying.
I.e. if there's a, say, Ma/Ne = Mo, that's a Midpoint (between Ma and Ne) that is 'attached to a planet' (Mo); 'attached to a planet' I get to mean: the planet doesn't need to be on a Direct Midpoint (which is an axis of two points, not a single point), but aspecting it, by being 90* or 45* away from the direct MP point that's on the shorter-side-of-the-arch between the two of them. That's what we see in 90*, or 45* dial, in Solar Fire, the listed MPs that do not have the d noted on the side.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:10 pm

Danica wrote:
That's what we see in 90*, or 45* dial, in Solar Fire, the listed MPs that do not have the d noted on the side.
Yes, I understand. I have never worked with the German School of Dials but can certainly see the Dials as a tremendous tool/aid for detailed work with Natal's and Synastry. I am curious Danica, do you work with Dials in Solarfire with your synastry work? And, have you read Hand's book on 'Planets in Composite,' which was also a German School technique? Thanks for your input Danica. :)

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Danica » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:52 pm

SteveS wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:10 pm
Danica wrote:
That's what we see in 90*, or 45* dial, in Solar Fire, the listed MPs that do not have the d noted on the side.
Yes, I understand. I have never worked with the German School of Dials but can certainly see the Dials as a tremendous tool/aid for detailed work with Natal's and Synastry. I am curious Danica, do you work with Dials in Solarfire with your synastry work? And, have you read Hand's book on 'Planets in Composite,' which was also a German School technique? Thanks for your input Danica. :)
I used to look at MPs only to see what colors an otherwise unaspected, or an out-of-the-picture planet, to get an insight into how is this planet connected to/integrated with the rest of the chart. But as of recently have started checking regularly, when analyzing a natal, if there are MPs involving a Light as one side of the MP-equation (I'm using the MidPoint Trees report in SF, 90* dial, orb 1*), or MPs involving both Lights.
As per looking at the MidPoints in synastry i.e. planet of one chart being connected (in Modulus 90*, as SF calls it) to a Midpoint of pair of planets in another, I've been only looking at these only when doing a very fine-detailed, exhaustive analysis.

I have- and read in parts - Hand's Planets in Composite; don't have a clearly formed opinion on it.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Arena » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:41 am

I would think that the midpoints are simply natal points, to describe a natal feature... not to follow for transits and progressions, since they are not angles.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:27 am

Danica wrote:
I used to look at MPs only to see what colors an otherwise unaspected, or an out-of-the-picture planet, to get an insight into how is this planet connected to/integrated with the rest of the chart.
8-) and very smart! When I first stated to investigate the field of astrology (1977), I soon came into contact with Robert Hand’s work on MP’s and the German Schools. Of course, the first chart I investigated with MP’s was my Natal but only became more interested/intrigued in Hand’s teachings on MP’s as my life unfolded.

Danica wrote:
But as of recently have started checking regularly, when analyzing a natal, if there are MPs involving a Light as one side of the MP-equation (I'm using the MidPoint Trees report in SF, 90* dial, orb 1*), or MPs involving both Lights.
Yes, I think Robert Hand would commend you with ‘checking regularly’ this type structure of MP’s. :)

Danica wrote:
As per looking at the MidPoints in synastry i.e. planet of one chart being connected (in Modulus 90*, as SF calls it) to a Midpoint of pair of planets in another, I've been only looking at these only when doing a very fine-detailed, exhaustive analysis.
I understand Arena. I have little experience with synastry charts from a research standpoint with lots of charts, only by using the Principles of Sidereal Astrology with other close people in my life with my natal do I see the importance of synastry charts.

Danica wrote:
I have- and read in parts - Hand's Planets in Composite; don't have a clearly formed opinion on it.
Exactly the same with me Danica! I have had this book for years but have never studied it. But, yesterday I ran my wife’s & I composite with SF for the first time, and using only the simple principle of Sidereal Astrology that partile aspects ‘reign supreme’ our composite calculated a partile cnj of Sun-Venus :o This really intrigued my mind with us being married 48 years! After seeing the Composite Chart for the relationship with wife and I, I stated reading seriously ‘Planets in Composite’ last night. What really intrigues my mind is the question: Where in Astrology History did MP’s originate? We know for sure MP’s did not originate with the Modern Day German Schools—nor did the Composite Chart of two people’s MP’s. It occurred to my mind: If MP’s originated with the original Sidereal Z, then these MP’s and their extension of the Composite Chart for the serious astrologer on Synastry is probably missing very important stuff. It could be after the standard Synastry analysis if a person/astrologer was going to consider any type long term relationship, the Composite Chart could provide important bottom-line info simply with the planetary aspects of the relationship chart itself which is the Composite Chart, I don’t know—only thinking out loud with this post. I am thinking Jim has already looked into this matter with the Composite Chart so maybe Jim could offer more clarity in this matter with the Composite Chart.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:55 am

Arena wrote:
I would think that the midpoints are simply natal points, to describe a natal feature... not to follow for transits and progressions, since they are not angles.
Yes, MP’s 'describe natal features' but in much more planetary detail than standard aspects in a natal chart. MP’s are to be used when standard natal delineations (aspects) don’t offer enough for explaining important stuff in one's life. For example: The way Jim looked at my Natal Saturn-Pluto cnj using only my MP of Saturn-Pluto, further principles of MP analysis showed that my Natal MP of Saturn-Pluto cnj produced a more detailed planetary picture with my Saturn/Pluto =Venus = Moon/Mars, which perfectly describes in more planetary detail HOW my Natal Saturn-Pluto cnj manifested in my life with my father and parents involving issues about love relationships (Venus) in my immediate living environment. In other words, with the tight cnj of Saturn-Pluto in my Natal-- we as astrologers know this is an important natal aspect, but what we don’t know is HOW this Saturn-Pluto will manifest in my life with more detail. Jim analysis of my Natal Saturn-Pluto using principles of MP analysis clearly pointed to a ‘relationship’ theme with my natal Venus being involved with my Saturn-Pluto MP and my natal MP of Moon/Mars. This is sound analysis by Jim using the principles of MP analysis taught by the German Schools.

Hand was able to correlate the importance of transits, progressions, and solar arc directions to important natal MP, by using the teachings of the German Schools with 360, 90, 45 degree Dials. It is my contention, only the astrologer who is proficient with lots of experience is the use of these Dials could actually correlate/see the importance of transits, progressions, or solar arcs to a important natal midpoint. For example: When we take a look at Trump’s Natal with transits on 2020 election night, we easily see a partile transit of Saturn to his natal Venus, but an astrologer who knew with experience how to use the German School of Dials would immediately know this Saturn transit was also partile cnj Trump’s Sun/Mars MP, in other words Trumps MP of Sun/Mars=t Saturn. This partile t. Saturn to Trump's Natal Sun/Mars MP is not easily seen with standard analysis unless one used the analysis of Midpoints as taught by the German Schools. When we go to Ebertin’s COSI book we see a combination of Sun/Mars=Saturn MP for Trump's Natal as Prez read out as:
Difficulties or obstacles in vocation (Prez of US) or profession (Prez of US), defeat in a fight or contest (2020 election), separation…
This example is how Hand would use Dials in looking at Trump’s election night for Prez in 2020. Hand by the use of Dials would immediately see Trump’s important MP of Sun/Mars was afflicted with t. Saturn being partile cnj his important Sun/Mars MP. Why is Trump’s Sun/Mars MP important? Simply because of his Natal light the Sun is involved. If I understand correctly, this is what Danica is starting to look at in her work—MP involving the lights. And this is exactly what Hand teaches us with weighing the importance of MP’s---it’s our MP’s with our Natal Lights and/or angles that are important. The main problem as I see it: We can't readily see important transits, progressions, solar arcs to our important MP's unless one is using Dials as taught by the German Schools. If one does not use dials, then one needs to run a computer list of their important MP's and then check transits, progressions, solar arcs to these important MP's; otherwise, we may be missing important timing frames in our lives when we know there are 'out of ordinary stuff' scheduled in our lives.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:50 pm

We might a well introduce the formal astrological term that is relevant. Cosmobiologists use the term planetary state to refer to the entire set of aspects and midpoints affecting a planet. (More broadly, it means all the conditions affecting a planet, which theoretically could include sign, house, angularity, and more; but, for the people who coined the term, that planetary state only includes hard aspects and midpoints.)

The planetary state is understood as being the primary (or even full) set of conditions modifying the expression of the planet. For example, in my chart (on a 45° wheel) the full complement of aspects within 5° and midpoints within 1° to my Mars are:

square Neptune 2°25'
opposite Uranus 4°25'
opposite Jupiter 4°41'
Moon/Venus 0°43'
Moon/Pluto 0°50'
Sun/Jupiter 0°53'

Therefore, the planetary state of my Mars would be written:

Ma = Ne = Ur = Ju = Mo/Ve = Mo/Pl = Su/Ju

Something that isn't so much a rule (law) as a principle of practice among Cosmobiologists is that a planet, when activated, is activated in terms of its planetary state. The primary use of this, beyond natal interpretation, is with Solar Arc directions. A planet coming by Solar Arc to contact my Mars (by any 45° aspect) would activate all of this at once. Similarly, it would bring the planetary state of the directed planet with it also.

Going from memory, I think this is developed best, as an entire integrated system, in Ebertin's book Applied Cosmobiology. (So many books, so many years, going from memory on that. I think Applied is the work where he ties together essentially the whole Cosmobiology system, natal through prediction, in one layered presentation.)

With Solar Arc directions, since the relationships between the directed planets stay the same, every planet carries its original planetary state with it. So, right now (for example), directed Mercury at 22°10' Sagittarius is 18' shy of exact square to my natal Sun. Here are the planetary states of both of those planets in my natal chart:

1. Su = Mo/Me = Sa/MC
2. Me = Sa = Ve/Ur = Ur/Pl = Ve/Ju = Ju/Pl

The simple rule (in theory, not always in practice) on interpreting this is that the entire Line #2 is contacting the entire Line #1. You have to interpret each lie in full to get the whole picture.

Ah, but here is where "dial wizards" just start to take off! Something obvious at a glance on the dial, but also obvious from the list above, is that Mercury is directed to the Sun but Sun is already natally at Moon/Mercury. In solar arcs, if Mercury shifts enough to aspect Sun then necessarily Sun is moving exactly enough to aspect Moon. This is true, since progressed (= Solar Arc) Sun is currently 27°16' Scorpio, 0°08' short of square Moon. Knowing that Su = Mo/Me tells us from the first moment we see it in the natal that the point in life when d Me = r Su is the same time as d Su = r Mo. We would, of course, interpret the Sun-Moon by bringing Sun's entire planetary state atop Moon's entire planetary state.

But it doesn't stop there either! Look at that Mercury planetary state. Something immediately obvious on the dial, but also obvious on the list of contacts above, is that Mercury's four midpoints (Ve/Ur, Ur/Pl, Ve/Ju, Ju/Pl) is really the four midpoints from my natal Venus-Pluto on one side (13' square) and Jupiter-Uranus conjunction on the other (17' conjunction). This tells us that directed Jupiter-Uranus will hit my Mercury the same time that directed Mercury hits my Venus-Pluto, which is about 14° of Solar Arc (about age 14, when I started seriously getting into astrology), or at 45-year (actually, 45°) intervals. One can tell that a critical life event would happen at age 14 that would be of the nature of Ju/Ur = Me and of Me = Ve/Pl, and that would set off the entire pattern of natal Mercury's planetary state - which it did!

Meanwhile, with d Sun square r Moon, natal Moon's planetary state is:

Mo = Su/Pl = Su/Ve

Wow, this already sets us up for the eventual direction of Sun to natal Moon because Sun is a big part of Moon's planetary state. The entire Moon pattern is set off by this Sun direction. This is such a big deal contact, so big I want to work it out for you in detail:

Because Moon is at Sun/Pluto and Sun/Venus midpoints, it means Sun is as far on one side of Moon (on the dial) as Venus and Pluto are on the other side. This means that when Sun covers the number of degrees to reach Moon, simultaneously Moon will cover the same number of degrees to reach Venus-Pluto. Looking at the dial (I'll attach one below with today's Solar Arcs in the outside circle), find natal Sun, Moon, and Venus-Pluto. Sun has to advance (counter-clockwise) from 22°28' Spoke to 12°24' Rim to make it's first aspect to Moon, a semi-square. This is 20° of Solar Arc (or about age 20). The next aspect would occur 45° later, at about 65° Solar Arc (about age 65).

In fact, my first wedding occurred March 16, 1974 with progressed Sun 11°47' Libra, 0°37' shy of exact sesqui-square to natal Moon (SA = 19°19') and my second wedding will occur May 27, 2019 with progressed 27°24' Scorpio, 0°00' from exact square to natal Moon (SA = 64°56'). Both weddings occur with progressed/directed Sun partile aspecting natal Moon, which activates the planetary state of natal Sun AND natal Moon.

Now, we could expect a wedding from d Sun to r Moon alone. It adds something know that natal Moon is at Su/Pl and Su/Ve. But what the dial lets us see in a second is that this is only half the picture: The bigger view is that I can't have d Sun to r Moon without having d Moon to natal Venus-Pluto! Using Solar Arcs (or any other directional, rather than progressional system), the paired aspects are hard-wired.

This is a small but typical example of the usefulness of the dial and Solar Arcs.

In Mo = Su/Ve = Su/Pl there is another set of aspects locked in. Not only does Sun always reach Moon as Moon reaches Venus-Pluto, but Moon always reaches Sun as Venus-Pluto reaches Moon. This occurred about age 25 and will occur again 45° later, about age 70.

Here is the dial for today from which, at a glance, you can see Mercury to Sun, Sun to Moon, and Moon to Venus-Pluto. (I've set the pointer to show Moon's planetary state.) In using a physical dial, the aspects including 45/135 are much easier to see than on the Solar Fire dial.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:25 pm

So much for Solar Arcs.

I haven't found secondary progressions or transits so useful. Ebertin has examples of using transiting planets like this atop Solar Arcs and natals, and he seemed comfortable enough with it; but a few things I checked in the '80s especially (and, to a lesser extent, ongoing since then) just haven't been so useful.

For example, Matthew and I watched, for a while, certain transiting midpoints. I did kinda think that one reason Neptune and Pluto transiting sextiles and trines seemed sometimes effective was because neither of these (when they were in close sextile) could trine or sextile a natal planet without the Neptune/Pluto midpoint conjoining or squaring the natal planet; but that probably was a wrong point of view. (It's more likely just because they're so slow.)

Try watching the transiting Mars/Saturn midpoint (or, for slower effects, transiting Saturn/Neptune or others) cross natal planets. At best, they produce an occasional (pretty rare) bad event and a whole lot of "nothing happened." Try transiting Venus/Jupiter as it zooms around the zodiac to see if you get really great days when it hits luminaries or other planets, or Venus/Mars to see if you get more sex, or Sun/Jupiter to see if you get ennobling, honoring, upbeat events... I think you'll find that these don't kick off events the way transiting planets kick off events.

Another area for which I had great hope - and still consult occasionally, though not with any notable success to report - is to try to get more detail about an event by noting a transit and checking the planetary state of the natal planet. For example, transiting Pluto is now in orb of conjunct my natal Mars. I know basically what this means but, what if I wanted more information on exactly how this would turn out? If I thought like a Tropical astrologer I might say, "Yes, but what kind of Pluto-Mars event will occur? Since Mars rules my 3rd cusp and is in my 4th house, the potentially aggressive, angry, sexual, or otherwise explosive event would likely impact 3rd and 4th house matters, like occur within the circle of family and close relatives, or impact my home or local environment.

But, since I don't think that way... what if I wanted more information on exactly what kind of Pluto-Mars event this would be? Is there a way to do it? A logical way is to look at natal Mars' planetary state, which is as follows:

Ma = Ne = Ur = Ju = Mo/Ve = Mo/Pl = Su/Ju

This is a rather complex planetary state with many possibilities, but we could take Pluto to each of those other factors, including the midpoints, and search for further details on the event.

I've tried this a lot... and it has never produced anything useful. It's never "filled in the cracks" on information about how the transit would unfold or, if some midpoint contact indeed was meaningful, it wasn't clear how I would have picked that out in advance. (For example, if there were a sudden surge of zeal and enthusiasm for a project with great energy available, that turned into a significant success, this might be an expression of Pluto transiting natal Ma = Su/Ju... but how would I know that in advance from the whole planetary picture? Would't it be as likely explosive sex interest from Pluto transiting Ma = Mo/Ve, or hurting myself in overly strenuous activity with Pluto transiting Ma = Mo/Pl? It seems impractical, even unnavigable.)

One could also look for more simple uses of transits to natal midpoints, e.g., watch natal Sun/Moon (mine is at 9°56' Sag) to see if it is responsive to transits. I've never seen any useful results from transits to even so significant a midpoint, nor noticed 10° Spoke standing out as a degree that keeps showing up in my life events without other explanation.

So... I haven't found midpoints useful in transits.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:32 am

Thanks Jim for your input, always enlightening. I want to respond to some of your points but have a long day with tests today concerning a minor heart issue. These issues concern me somewhat with t. Pluto closing in on a partile 180 to my Natal Mars. I am hoping I don't need another procedure with my heart for last time I had a procedure it took me a while to fully recover. Getting old is tough business. :)

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:10 am

Good luck with your tests. Yes, getting old is not for the timid :)

Your Demi-SLR from two days ago has Mercury on MC conjunct Neptune and Venus, lots of obscure inquiry going around. (This week-long Mercury-Neptune influence has been quite difficult for a lot of people.) I have some concern over the middleground Sun-Saturn square, but not much - since the strongest thing in the SLR is stationary Jupiter exactly square MC (0°09') and in easy shot of square your foreground natal Sun.

Unfortunately, I've been seeing a lot of doctors in recent months, too, and have come to recognize transiting Jupiter as marking quality care, effective diagnosis, etc.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:42 am

Jim wrote:
Good luck with your tests. Yes, getting old is not for the timid :)
Your Demi-SLR from two days ago has Mercury on MC conjunct Neptune and Venus, lots of obscure inquiry going around. (This week-long Mercury-Neptune influence has been quite difficult for a lot of people.) I have some concern over the middleground Sun-Saturn square, but not much - since the strongest thing in the SLR is stationary Jupiter exactly square MC (0°09') and in easy shot of square your foreground natal Sun.

Unfortunately, I've been seeing a lot of doctors in recent months, too, and have come to recognize transiting Jupiter as marking quality care, effective diagnosis, etc.
Thanks Jim. Extensive testing yesterday by new cardiologist (I fired the other one) proved a possible slight heart attack recently, with a slight leaky value. Nothing serious, come back in two years or sooner if needed for the same tests. I am relieved :D no further procedures were ordered by new cardiologist.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:38 am

Ebertin wrote from his Book ‘Combination of Stellar Influences’ about Midpoints.
The use of midpoints is not new, as can be seen from the method of rectification used by Guido Bonati (apparently born in the year 1230 at Cascia near Florence) who was the famous court astrologer of the Emperor Frederick 11.
As with some techniques of astrology, we simply don’t know where they originated in the history of astrology, nor do we know when astrology itself originated in history. I strongly suspect astrology originated in Ancient Egypt, but it is not known how far back into history Ancient Egypt’s culture originated.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Soft Alpaca » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:12 pm

Question about midpoints. Does the energy of a planet in a midpoint come out pure. This may seem dumb to ask but my biggest midpoint of Venus-Uranus on the sun alters by a huge proportion if I include venus's square to Mars and placement in Mars/Uranus scorpio in its connection with Uranus to the sun.

[Asking about if planetary themes carry over not signs]

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Arena » Wed May 01, 2019 2:10 am

Beanies+Bad habits wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:12 pm
Question about midpoints. Does the energy of a planet in a midpoint come out pure. This may seem dumb to ask but my biggest midpoint of Venus-Uranus on the sun alters by a huge proportion if I include venus's square to Mars and placement in Mars/Uranus scorpio in its connection with Uranus to the sun.

[Asking about if planetary themes carry over not signs]
Planetary energies are always influenced by the other planets that aspect it.
So your Venus/Uranus=Sun will be influenced by any planets in aspect to those, with Mars it adds that aggressive, active and sexual Martian energy into your Venus space.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:21 am

The School of Cosmobiology teaches a Natal Direct Midpoint is very important. After living for 72 years, I can attest to my direct natal midpoint of Moon/Saturn = Mercury (0,28) is indeed a most potent influence in my life with a strong resonating vibratory tone for my inner being, positive and negative. Ebertin says about this midpoint:
The inclination to ponder or reflect, mediation, prudence and thoughtfulness, sense of duty, conscientious. Thinking of separation, the state of felling sad, saying good-bye.
I contribute this one direct midpoint for much success in my thinking pondering life with my career in the commercial theater business, and for applying astrological insight in my life for minimizing my personal malefic cycles and enhancing my benefic cycles. This was only allowed for myself since I was the only one who knew/understood the inner workings of my astrological being and immediate living environmental circumstances. But there was one thing in life I loved but had to separate myself and say a final 'good-bye' to an alcoholic father who was abusive to my mother. It was the greatest feeling of sadness I have experienced in my entire life.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:09 am

According to the Uranian School (late 1800s-early 1900s), originators for astrological extensions for today's school of thoughts with Midpoints, the Vernal Point (Spring Equinox Nodal Point), Moon Nodes, & Asc/Dsc axis symbolizes a hierarchy zeroed in to one's Relationships (all kinds—at any time) in life. The Uranian School explicitly taught if any national figure was ever to become famous making a significant impact on the larger world around them---it was through the nodal point of the Spring Equinox. The Uranian School taught if the astrologer wanted insight on how a person was going to become famous to the larger world around them---to pay close attention to the Natal Midpoints Structures to the Nodal Point of the Spring Equinox.

I have done absolutely no work with the the Spring Equinox Nodal Point (Vernal Point) with charts, but after reading this morning Jim's topic of “Archetypes of Taurus” and my responding with my opinions about history when 0 Taurus by Precession came to the the Vernal Point, the thought jumped into my mind, we are now seeing a famous person (Taurus) who does have an important relationship with a most significant impact to the larger world around him and that is President Donald Trump. This made me think of the Uranian School and their teachings about the Vernal Point being a possible important point in the Natal Chart and other Charts. So, I went to Solarfire to check out Trump's Natal Midpoints to the Vernal Point, and quickly review some of Robert Hand words on Midpoints/Vernal Point in his book "Horoscope Symbols". But, I am not exactly sure if I am seeing Trump's Midpoints correctly with Solarfire---so Jim needs to verify if my observation that Trump has a Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars (0,00) =Vernal Point?

If true, this Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars (0,00) = Vernal Point would also partially astrologically explain to me WHY Trump excites (Mars) so much public (Moon) hate (Mars) toward him. Trump will probably go down in history as a President who may possibly incite the most public strife ever to occur in the history of the USA. If I have not calculated this Moon/Mars 0,00 =Vernal Point correctly---then Trumps rising Mars (partile cnj Asc in DC) will have to do for inciting all the public strife.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:21 am

You're correct that some things astrologers allege - such as the Astrological Ages - does require acknowledging astrological validity to the Vernal Point. There is no basis for the Astrological Ages other than as a sign-transit of the Vernal Point. Witte's interpretation of the VP as "concerning the Earth horoscope" or (more simply) "the world" makes much sense, at least as an initial speculation, and Uranian astrologers consider it a basic interpretation.

BTW - to digress - if anyone wants to learn more about Uranian Astrology, I recommend The Language of Uranian Astrology by Roger A. Jacobson. Roger was a Siderealist - he said so quite candidly in one of his many articles in Spica, and much of the Spica collection we have posted here for download is from Roger's private collection. This doesn't enter into his magnum opus on Uranian Astrology because zodiacs weren't an issue for that book, it's all about mathematical relationships; but the book itself is the best text anyone ever did on the subject. I got mine on December 18, 1975m, probably the exact week I moved to West Hollywood two blocks from Bodhi Tree. Matthew and I spent years going through that book together.

Anyway, back to Steve's questions.
SteveS wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:09 am
So, I went to Solarfire to check out Trump's Natal Midpoints to the Vernal Point... But, I am not exactly sure if I am seeing Trump's Midpoints correctly with Solarfire---so Jim needs to verify if my observation that Trump has a Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars (0,00) =Vernal Point?
No, you made a common mistake. You put in the Aries Point. In Solar Fire, this will put in 0° Aries of whatever zodiac you are using. Now, this point does have an interesting planetary picture, especially because Trump's Saturn is at 29°50' Gemini (10' off the Sidereal 0° Cardinal axis), and Moon/Aries is not only 0°00' from that axis (midpoint 0°00' Libra) by 0°10' from Saturn.

To get the Vernal Point for this purpose (in a Sidereal chart), don't add the Aries Point, add the Vernal Point - it will match the longitude of the SVP, so Trump's is at 6°01' Pisces. On the 90° wheel, its midpoints within 1° are Moon/Mercury 0°02', Mercury/Node 0°10', Sun/Mercury 0°54'. I don't really think these "fit," but they're all so generic that it's hard to say they fit him distinctly. Here are Witte's interpretations of those three combinations from Rules. (I substitute VP for his "Ar.") Personally, I don't think Trump best represents "the thinking populace" or a "thinking nation."

VP = Mo/Me. Young persons. Young women. Thinking populace. Memory for general things. Thinking nation. General traveling conditions.

VP = No/Me. Exchange of ideas. News.

VP = Su/Me. The thinking man. The motion. Travelling and wandering.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:58 pm

I was going to skip the following post (as opening a new can of worms), but think I should say something...

The Uranian Astrology theory Steve is citing explicitly refers to the vernal point - Tropical 0° Aries-Libra remains a valid astronomical point - the vernal points formed by the intersection of the ecliptic and the celestial equator - independent of any question of zodiacs. It either is valid or not valid, "works" or "doesn't work," but (unlike the Uranian hypothetical "Trans Neptunian Planets," it's something real.

Another "something real" that theoretically could be important is the one Steve accidentally used: Sidereal 0° Aries. On the 90° dial, this axis marks all 0°00' Rim and all 15°00' Hub point, the eight that are most likely the anchor points of the Sidereal zodiac. Theoretically, this might be objectively important. It would complicate our astrology, but it's at least a theoretical consideration. One might muse ( little tongue in cheek, but not wholly) that if the vernal point is astrologically valid and means "the world," then the Sidereal 0 Rim / 15° Hub might mean "cosmos," which is a little hard to manage interpretively. I would suggest thinking of it as "impersonal things, those matters outside the framework of one's personal horoscope and more the anchoring of it to the mundane astrology world. (Again, this is 100% theoretical.)

I only mention it because of the following: I decided to idle a little time checking the VP theory on U.S. presidents for whom we have good birth times, toi see if midpoints on the VP axis either showed their place in the larger world or what they brought to the larger (outside themselves) world. I was surprised to find some remarkable of the SZ point!

Besides Steve's inadvertent example of Donald Trump having Sa=Mo/Ma exactly on this axis, here are a few interesting examples. (I'll use "SZ" to designate the 0° Rim point for now.)

If George Washington's birth time is correct, even-hour and recorded in the family Bible (10 AM LAT), he had SZ=Ju/MC (and the less-clear VP=Me/Ma). Abraham Lincoln had less clear midpoints on VP (Mo/Sa, Ve/Ju), but, again, the great dignity of Jupiter and an angle - this time Ju/AS - along with Ne/MC. (Not every U.S. President had this kind of dignity marker on the axis, but these two did.) Dwight Eisenhower, who especially served the world larger than himself as Supreme Allied Commander in WW II, has nothing on the VP axis but, on the SZ axis, has the remarkable "military victory" Ma/Ju! Gerald Ford, who personally presided admirably (IIRC) over the nation's two worst modern embarrassments (Watergate aftermath and the final collapse of our efforts in Vietnam) had Mo/Sa and Su/Ne on the SZ axis. John Kennedy, if his family records 3 PM birthtime is correct, had SZ =Sa/As and, despite everything else he did, he is still remembered best for a time of the nation's greatest mourning.

As a counter-example, Jimmy Carter, one of the greatest lifelong messengers of peace, has SZ = Me/Ma.

Not everybody has anything on this axis. Gandhi had no midpoints on either SZ or VP axis. Bill Gates has nothing on SZ and the interesting Ju/Ur on VP. Martin Luther King at least had As/Ur, if his even-noon birthtime is correct.

A few of these are interesting.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:49 pm

Thanks Jim, I now understand my mistake of using the Aries Point in Solarfire instead of the VP (Vernal Point) for Trump. I did not even realize I had a VP option. And, I do understand some of the interesting points you raise about possible validity using the VP with Natal Midpoints for people famous on the World Stage. That Bill Gates example was an eye opener. :o

Jim wrote:
One might muse ( little tongue in cheek, but not wholly) that if the vernal point is astrologically valid and means "the world," then the Sidereal 0 Rim / 15° Hub might mean "cosmos," which is a little hard to manage interpretively.
Thought provoking!

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by By Jove » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:58 pm

Does it make any difference how wide the two planets "sandwiching" the third planet are regarding midpoints?

For example, most friends I know whose charts have few aspects "compensate" for it by having partile midpoints between planets 30 degrees or less apart. (Which is more likely when all your planets are tipped to one half or even one third of the natal chart.) One friend and I have such midpoints with our luminaries.

One has Sun 0 degrees = Mercury/Pluto.
I have Moon 1 degree between Mercury-Venus-Uranus/Saturn.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:37 am

Jove asked:
Does it make any difference how wide the two planets "sandwiching" the third planet are regarding midpoints
No, except when the two planets “sandwiching” the third is in tight aspect orb. For example: If two planets are partile 30, 60, 90 aspect with a third planet partile conjunct or opposition the two planets midpoint, then this is considered to be a more potent direct midpoint combination, especially for the 90 aspect since the midpoint would aspect the other two planets by 45 degrees, a harmonic 8 aspect which is considered by Siderealists to be the important aspects.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri May 07, 2021 4:01 am

Here is a fine example for Robert Hand’s teachings on Direct Midpoints where he states:
Direct midpoints involving the Sun, Moon, Midheaven, or Ascendant are to be taken more seriously than others. I find that direct midpoints are as important as major aspects in influencing a natal chart; if you use no other type of midpoint, use direct midpoints.
Terence Kemp McKenna was an American ethnobotanist and mystic who advocated for the responsible use of naturally occurring psychedelic plants. He spoke and wrote about a variety of subjects, including psychedelic drugs, plant-based entheogens, shamanism, metaphysics, alchemy, language, philosophy, culture, technology, environmentalism, and the theoretical origins of human consciousness. Wikipedia

AA rated: 11/16/1946 7:25 AM Hotchkiss,Colorado; 38,N47,59; 107W43,08

Terence (RIP) Natal is loaded with par-excellent planetary symbolism, but I find the most “influencing” aspect of his Natal is his direct midpoint of Neptune/Pluto = MC, 0,33 and Mercury/Uranus = MC 0,40 Uranian Astrology considered the MC the most important point in a Natal Chart. Reinhold Ebertin wrote from his book about midpoints, “The Combination of Stellar Influences” for Neptune/Pluto =MC:
An intensified and purified soul life, high spiritual aspiration, self-knowledge, mystical peculiarities.
Terrence also was born with a direct midpoint of Mercury/Uranus = MC 0,40. Ebertin says about this combo:
A person with the ability to correctly grasp all connective links and relationships and draw logical conclusions from such knowledge. The ability to think about a particular matter acutely and keenly, acting swiftly.
A remarkable soul in his specialized field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 07, 2021 7:57 am

Steve, this is an interesting and useful example - particularly, for me, because it addresses something basic I've been examining.

For a couple of years I have seriously questioned whether midpoints involving angles are valid in the zodiac at all. We know from SMA that the only significant relevance is in taking them mundanely, and I've seen several cases that led me to believe that this is true in natal astrology, too. If it's true that midpoints involving angles only work mundanely, that makes working with them much harder - all other midpoints need to be calculated ecliptically, then separately check for angles mundanely.

But McKenna's chart points the other direction. I agree that MC = Ne/Pl = Me/Ur is beautiful symbolism - it's hard to imagine it being better - and these contacts don't exist mundanely. This is one piece of evidence (a strong one) that ecliptical midpoints to angles are valid.

It's also an interesting example because McKenna's chart has always seemed a bit lacking in describing the one thing for which he is best known, that was his life's work. The chart describes his character very well - his behavior, his demeanor - but not his calling. Sun is in Libra, Moon in Leo. Venus is most angular (and it's joined in the foreground by Moon, Sun, and that Mercury-Mars conjunction in Scorpio that describes his mind so well).

Other than with the midpoints you found, capturing McKenna's life work requires supplemental (harmonic) charts. For example, his Novien has close Sun-Pluto and Jupiter-Uranus oppositions that describe him well.

Also, his angles and planets are all strongly connected to various stars in the serpent constellations plus Hercules. The idea of venom seems strongly excited by this. I think his might be an important chart for investigating the stars. (Rasalhague [Alpha Ophiuchi] is on his Ascendant, Moon and Sun both paran Ras Algethi [Alpha Herc.], Mercury set with Antares and Acrab, Venus rises with Rasalhague, Jupiter rises with Alpha Serpentis [Uranus rises when it sets]: That's a lot!)

But the simplest thing - that doesn't take us too far down a rabbit hole - is your observation about the midpoints to his Meridian.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri May 07, 2021 9:30 am

Jim wrote:
But the simplest thing - that doesn't take us too far down a rabbit hole - is your observation about the midpoints to his Meridian.
Indeed Jim, it's a statement of his true life mission. Its a beautiful natal in so many ways with Venus rising. Thank you so much for your input, it always allows more learning.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun May 16, 2021 9:02 am

For those who know Terence McKenna’s work or who have listen to him speak at engagements will realize his direct midpoint of Sun/Mercury = Asc (0,24) is right- on. Ebertin from his book “Combination of Stellar Influences” says about this midpoint:
Principle: Mind and common senses, a thinking being, the power of thought, understanding and knowledge. Psychological Correspondence: Practical thinking, a clear mind, consciousness of objective, ability to organize thoughts, circumspection and prudence, a busy occupation.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:16 am

LeiLei wrote from another thread:
I've never had a solid romantic partnership and after my second disaster of a marriage, I didn't just take myself off the market, I doused it with gasoline & set it on fire.
LeiLei Natal Chart clearly reflects with her above quoted words Robert Hand’s teachings for Direct Midpoints where Hand teaches Direct Midpoints are just as important standard aspects. LeiLei’s most angular planet is her Natal Venus 1,59 conjunct her MC. How is her Natal Venus structured with Direct Midpoints? One of her 4 Direct Midpoints involving her Natal Venus is Venus/Saturn = Sun (0,44). Ebertin from his book “Combination of Stellar Influences” writes for one of the tones for this Direct Midpoint:
…separation in love or marriage…
LeiLei’s Natal exhibits excellent Direct Midpoint examples why I use Robert Hand’s teachings for Natal Direct Midpoints combined with principles of Sidereal Astrology. Thank you again LeiLei for sharing with us your life experiences, it helps us with astrological learning.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:32 am

Since a Sidereal Astrologer knows the most important planet in LeiLei Natal Chart is her angular Venus, and now with a knowing sense, I clearly understand that her Direct Midpoint of Venus/Saturn = Sun has played a major malefic astrological role in her life. I now want to probe further into the Direct Midpoint structures of her Natal Venus. Two more out of a total 4 of her Direct Midpoints involving her Natal Venus are:
Moon/Pluto = Venus 0,53
Moon/Mercury =Venus 0,37
Ebertin says about the “Principle” for the tones of Moon-Pluto:
An extreme emotional life or an extreme expression of feeling.
And since this Direct Midpoint = her Venus, and along with her other Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mercury = Venus, we have a good idea of how these two other Direct Midpoints manifested involving two separations: there were obviously some “extreme emotional” communications (Mercury) with these two major Venus Relationships (Husbands) in LeiLei’s life. Again, as a Sidereal Astrologer we know her most important Natal Planet is angular Venus, but we don’t necessarily know how LeiLei's angular Natal Venus will operate/manifest in her life. With Direct Midpoints, the astrologer has more clues how LeiLei Natal Venus will operate in her life. Direct Natal Midpoints are useful tools to put in the astrologer's tool bag, IMHO.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:09 am

And LeiLei's 4th Direct Midpoint involving her Natal Venus is Venus/Uranus = MC (0,15). Taken in the context of all 4 of her Direct Midpoints involving Venus, this combo appears to have manifested in her life as upsets (Uranus) with her Love life (Venus). Again, thanks LeiLei for sharing, your Natal offers one of the finest examples I have seen pertaining to Direct Midpoints.

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