Self-Destruction

General Discussion on Natal Astrology matters for which a specific forum does not exist
Post Reply
User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:04 pm

GENERAL INTRODUCTION: Sidereal astrologers have rarely written at length about how to judge specific areas of life about which people may have recurring questions. Tropical astrologers dwell on this extensively, surely fortified by the idea (that may or may not be true) that different areas of life are "governed" by different houses.

Speaking for myself, I've not written about such topics extensively because my primary interest is exposing character and its unfolding. I disagree with the house-driven premise that we are drastically different in how we handle different parts of our lives. Instead, I find that, "How you are in one part of your life, so are you in all the parts of your life" - your inherent self ultimately shines through one way or the other. Therefore, my basic answer to any question of "How does this person act in the X part of his or her life?" or "Over the course of life, what is likely to happen to this person?" will always be: "Understand who this person is: That will tell you what you want to know."

Nonetheless, we do have ways of placing a magnifying glass over one or another area of life; we just haven't sharpened these tools. I propose to start a series of threads on different life areas. For each, I will post this introduction; then reserve the first reply space for me to post my primary answer (as I get around to it). The rest of the thread is wide open to discussion and contribution. (Over time, I will edit my premise-post with the idea of turning it into an instruction in the topic, fed by the discussion. You don't have to wait for my premise-post to post on the topic.)

Some will be tempted, based on the nature of these topics, to jump into the houses as a quick answer. As the thread is open to discussion, that's fine; but, as usual, my own opinion is that we should stick with techniques that we have proof work, which at this stage in astrology's unfolding would minimize or exclude the use of houses.

Everyone feel free to jump in!
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:04 pm

This is a difficult topic on which to write. I don't have a clear protocol or path to examining this. It's more a case of "I usually know it when I see it." Therefore, I'll write what's on my mind at the moment and (as with all of these threads) revise it over time.

This is an important topic. We can do a lot of good correctly identifying tendencies to self-harm and self-destruction. On the other hand, it's important to keep in mind that most people are never seriously self-harming or self-destructive. (We all make bad decisions, punish ourselves here and there for one thing or another, etc., but rarely to a serious extent.) As astrologers, therefore, while we can do much good correctly identifying self-destructive tendencies, we can have a negative outcome looking for it when it isn't there. (At the very least, we get ourselves labelled busybodies or or looking silly.)

The gist of the matter astrologically is that our malefics are where we hurt ourselves. they also show where we hurt other people or cause harm in general, but it's important to register that natal malefics are where we experience harm, including self-harm. (BTW, I think this was a Cyril Fagan observation. Out of the whole world of astrologers, he's the only one I know who emphasized that natal malefics are where we are hurt.)

In theory, then, we can look at the angularity and aspects of Mars, Saturn, and Neptune, plus Mars' sign, for clues about this. For the present topic, I'm not including actions that simply produce bad outcomes for us, but those that are intentionally and overtly self-punishing, self-harming, or self-destroying.

I'm not considering suicides in this group, btw. Suicides are rarely acts of self-punishment or, at least, not cleanly so.

I don't have charts collected for this self-harming category. I may discover some as we go. If anyone has such examples or can think of famous examples, please mention them.

To start (merely a start!) sorting this out, for the next post (below) I'll go through my "packaged" interpretations of primary chart factors and start taking notes on anything that fits. (These, however, are intentionally written to be mostly positive and, specifically, not include extreme negatives, so I might miss some things buried more deeply in my notes here on the forum.)
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:04 am

I am using this post to take preliminary notes on factors already known to have some intentional self-harm tendencies sometimes. I'm not sure what this post will become over time (I will edit and change it at my whim and may delete it or mold it into something different).

ANGULAR PLANETS
I think it broadly true that people with benefics angular are much less likely to be self-harming and people with malefics angular are more likely. This is hardly the whole picture, of course, because angular malefics can simply be driven, compulsive, and destructive of things and other people rather than intentionally dismantling themselves. Nonetheless, one form of angular Saturn is self-punishment; angular Mars in the best conditions skirts the edge of danger and risk, looking suspiciously like they want to get hurt; and one form of angular Neptune is self-dismantling. (If this generalization holds up, we still have to clarify what pushes it toward self-harm.)

Saturn angular (and, actually, in other forms like aspecting luminaries) at the very least can turn to self-restriction that, in the extreme, could become intentional self-punishment.

MOON PLACEMENTS & ASPECTS
Moon in Taurus (and, for that matter, Sun in Taurus) values harmlessness. Normally this makes them non-harming of self and others. I'm curious, though, whether, if this is pathologized, it would take intentionally self-harming forms. (That's the way that pathological circuits work: They turn to expressions that are quite the opposite of what they seem in healthy conditions, turning on things normally basic to our natures.)

As I read through the Moon-sign interpretations, I'm struck at how vulnerable our lunar nature may be. Afflictions to Moon often create emotional pathology consistent with the aspect, and might well be important to the current topic.

Moon in Virgo is often subjected to abuse, especially when young. I wonder if this has at least self-sabotage aspects or willingness to accept abuse and whether this crosses into the self-harm area.

Sagittarius luminaries have a very punishing side, the whip or scourge being basic to the sign's symbolism across the ages. There is an acute sense of right vs. wrong. Especially if fueled by religious righteousness, I wouldn't be surprised to find that that Moon in Sagittarius in particular (and perhaps Sun also) had examples that were at least self-mortifying if not (figuratively or literally) self-flagellating.

Scorpio and Capricorn Moons are known for dark imagery, grotesque displays, and shocking actions (especially when young), but my first impression is that these are not as likely to become actually self-harming (and that the fantasy and imagery aspect acts as a release valve of any such actual tendency).

Pisces (like the 12th house) is traditionally related to self-undoing, but this is primarily a Tropical tradition. I'm not sure it's true. (I'd suspect these traits from other signs sooner than Pisces.) I mention it because of the traditions but I don't really see it in them.

I suspect Moon-Sun aspects are an indemnification against intentional self-harm.

Moon-Mars can show as alcoholism and other substance abuse. I don't want to put all the alcoholism markers in this category, but it does seem Moon-Mars pathologized might move in the direction of intentionally creating hurt in ways that draw blood.

Moon-Saturn is prone to self-punishment (extreme forms of "holding oneself to task") in most cases, and different psychological forms of self-immolation. I suspect this can turn to intentional self-harm in the most extreme cases. Moon-Neptune also feels like it could go this way in deeply disturbed cases. (In all these factors, I don't mean the typical expression but only extreme cases.)

SUN PLACEMENTS & ASPECTS
Sun in Aries seems the most self-destructive placement: Aries has the lowest survival instinct of any Sun-sign. (This is the trait most obviously reflecting the sign being un-Saturn: The survival instinct is lowest of the 12.) This shows in their recklessness, being the most suicide-prone, etc. and I think it can be credited with the potential for general self-destruction.

Sun in Libra can be self-denying. I'm not sure how far this might go in extreme cases. It feels like it could become self-punishing and possibly self-destructive.

Going by hunches rather than data, I'd be more likely to suspect self-immolation and intentional self-harm from Sun in Pisces than I would from Moon in Pisces. (Not sure why in theory: It's just a feeling, perhaps a spin-off of their slavery-bondage themes and sometimes acute moralism.)

Some of the sign observations listed above under Moon would be expected to behave similarly for Sun. I won't repeat them.

I don't think Sun-Mars fits this category, but Sun-Saturn and Sun-Neptune definitely might. (Sun-Mars is too action prone and outward acting. There is also the observation that the aspect is common for murderers but quite absent for suicides: again, attacks are struck outwardly not inwardly.)

MARS PLACEMENTS & ASPECTS
In theory, Mars' sign would be expected to shows details of how we are harmed, including self-harm. That's the theory - it needs observation to confirm or dismiss.

There are, of course, the alcohol and other substance-abuse signatures of Mars in Mercury signs that might overlap the current category. (We probably shouldn't emphasize this too much since many - most? - of these cases involve a physical disease, not a self-harming psychological state. At the very least, there isn't a perfect overlap, it's a skinny Venn.)

Mars in Libra is strong on my radar for intentional self-harm. They do tend to be self-sufficient survivors most of the time, but this also makes them slow to ask for help. They live a bit on the social outskirts, can become cut off from other people, and get into a whole lot of trouble over the course of their lives. It's also the only chart factor I know outside of Mercury-Mars themes that stands out for alcoholism. I think there is a self-harming element in Mars in Libra.

Mars in Capricorn tends to have much unresolved shadow, is vulnerable to dark moods, and carries around their darkness. This might become self-harming (even though usually it has outward-acting release valves that keep it healthy).

Mars in Pisces can be brooding and moody, pursing the extreme of depths and heights. I can see this becoming self-harming in the sense of, "Oops, that got out of control," but not necessarily intentional self-harm compared to other things I've cited.

I don't know if Mars in Aries is as anti-survival as Sun in Aries. In theory, it could be, but it's not obvious to me from observation.

Mars aspects easily show inadvertent self-harm in the sense of recklessness in one or another area of life, things getting out of hand, etc. This isn't what we're examining. (I mention it to distinguish it, but it is probably useful information by itself.)

Mars-Saturn aspects usual extrovert, but the aspect can introvert as inner battles. It can be self-punishing. I think it has the potential to be more extreme than that. Also, Mars aspects with Saturn, Neptune, and Pluto are noted for different sorts of anger issues (sometimes anger control problems, sometimes suppressed anger, but usually boiling down to difficulty cleanly and appropriately expressing anger). As a generalization, this could feed self-destruction.

Beyond the anger issues, Mars-Neptune feels like it has the potential for self-destruction. It certainly has the potential for inadvertent self-destruction - those cases are really easy to find! - and (having the aspect myself) the energies seem to wildly outwardly expressed to wander often into intentional self-destruction. There is also fantasy as an important psychological release valve. Nonetheless, I feel I have to mention it much in the same fashion as Sun-Neptune but with more drama.

VENUS ASPECTS
Generally, these aren't going to be important. The one that seems to stand out as an exception is Venus-Saturn, which easily moves to self-denial or self-sacrifice. If you combine interpersonal distance, cut off contact, and similar states (which can be one connection), this could move to self-punishment at least and deeper intentional self-harm potentially - in theory.

OTHER ASPECTS
The main outer planet aspect that comes to mind is Saturn-Neptune. Most people with this aspect (like every aspect) live and function well, but the aspect is certainly not short on morbid manifestations. I think these are more likely when Saturn and Neptune are tied into faster planets, but the aspect also operates fully on its own in most respects - so perhaps in self-destruction as well.

Saturn-Neptune often has practical failings that result in inadvertent harm; for example, them are frequently indifferent to material security. But in more extreme cases, they can perceive (or be themselves guilty of) intrigue, deception, suspicion, and betrayal. Many withdraw into seclusion or exile (and social isolation, I think, is a common key in self-harm). They can also experience dark, troubled states, depression, disappointment, distrust, and generally struggling with their own demons. This seems a set-up for self-destruction.

Saturn-Pluto might be prone to this also. It often is inadvertently self-harming (just from everything it takes on). One form of Saturn-Pluto symbolism is "losing it all." The aspect can be isolative or even alienated. Normally, though, I think it's pretty tough and not as likely to go the route of intentional self-destruction: They are usually survivors.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:54 am

It would be fabulous to have some actual charts to check!
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 3972
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:49 pm

I have never conflated suicide and self-destruction. Suicide is usually from depression, which is a chemical imbalance, or a dramatic (often childish) florish. Self destruction is about self-delusion and obstinacy. Refusing to see where they are going or stubbornly staying the course they've chosen.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:49 pm
I have never conflated suicide and self-destruction. Suicide is usually from depression, which is a chemical imbalance, or a dramatic (often childish) florish. Self destruction is about self-delusion and obstinacy. Refusing to see where they are going or stubbornly staying the course they've chosen.
Agreed. I kept them apart.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Veronica
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1542
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:37 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Veronica » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:59 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:54 am
It would be fabulous to have some actual charts to check!
Observering self destructive behavior in others has impacted my life immensely.

It was with the help of astrology that I tried to understand what I saw others doing to themselves which seemed like poor choices to me.

I have seen people do such horrible hurtful violent things to themselves and try to wrap my mind around trying to understand what pain they must be going through and cannot find expression or release for.

I dont have an accurate time but a chart of my exhusband has many markers...Moon Mars opposition....Saturn Neptune opposition...Sun in Aries. Nothing makes him happy it seems. I've never seen such pain and sadness and anger....and when its focused it is terrifying.

May 1 1972 Buffalo NY approx 8 or 9aM

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:04 pm

That's a ferocious charts - thanks for the example. He's an Aries-Scorpio with a close Venus-Mars conjunction rising closely. (For 8:30 AM, Mars is 0°37' above Asc and Venus 2°30' above Asc: Mars is thus stronger in a third way.) Mundanely he has an exact (0°12') Moon-Saturn opposition to add to the pile, while ecliptically it's Saturn opposite Neptune.

So... the ferocity and (probably) the deep pain is quite evident. I can easily see this person damaging things and other people. With his Moon conjunct your Mars, his Saturn-Neptune across your Eastpoint axis, I doubt it was easy for you to stay out of the line of fire.

What I'm not clear about: What kinds of things did he do to himself? How was he self-destructive, self-unravelling, etc.?
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

LeiLei
Planet Member
Planet Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:45 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by LeiLei » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:17 pm

My ex-husband was extremely self-destructive. He was reckless when we were together but he really went off the deep end in the years following our split and I wouldn't doubt even now. He spent hard time in prison for 7 or 8 years for arson plus many other arrests for various offenses including drunk driving, drug use, & violence towards others. He drove a motorcycle and even his work as a roofer was risky. He seemed determined to risk his life, his freedom, his relationships with his family & friends. Definitely seemed like there was a death wish.

I don't know his birth time but he was born May 18, 1979, Decatur, Ga. He has a tight Venus/Mars conjunction in Aries.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 pm

Thanks for another example. Gosh, I really wish we had a time for this. I think the angles would make all the difference in the word. I don't suppose you have a way to get that?

From your description, I think his Moon was in Capricorn. (It's either in late Capricorn or early Aquarius.) But Sun is in Taurus (and, unless he was born really early in the day, there goes my theory of Moon-Sun aspects being an indemnification). If I had to guess, I'd go with about 5:00 AM with Capricorn Moon square Uranus exactly and Venus Venus-Mars angular.

As it is... the aspects and Taurus Sun don't support the picture I expected or that you described. But... there we go with another near-partile Venus-Mars conjunction as in Veronica's example. That aspect is passionate (in the best and worst senses) but doesn't have a reputation for being self-destructive. (It is, though, the single most common aspect for murderers in the Bradley study, which I always took to be the raw passion acting through them, and one of the least common aspects for suicide.) It is generally thought life-affirming, but these two examples suggest another side.

I'm going to have to look into that.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:28 pm

Close Venus-Mars hard aspects include a few people who managed to get in more than a little trouble and might be considered self-destructive (among many others, especially positive, nearly saintly, expressions):

Adolf Hitler, Aleister Crowley, Arthur Bremer, David Koresh, George Zimmerman, Jeffrey Epstein, Marquis de Sade, Orson Welles (some consider him seriously self-sabotaging), Patty Hearst, Prince Andrew, Robert Strack, Thomas Mooney, and Vincent Van Gogh.

Not a huge list considering the much larger list I pulled them from, but something to consider. But let's not miss that, other than the killers, most of the people on this list got in trouble due to sex scandals.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Veronica
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1542
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:37 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Veronica » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:06 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:04 pm
That's a ferocious charts - thanks for the example. He's an Aries-Scorpio with a close Venus-Mars conjunction rising closely. (For 8:30 AM, Mars is 0°37' above Asc and Venus 2°30' above Asc: Mars is thus stronger in a third way.) Mundanely he has an exact (0°12') Moon-Saturn opposition to add to the pile, while ecliptically it's Saturn opposite Neptune.

So... the ferocity and (probably) the deep pain is quite evident. I can easily see this person damaging things and other people. With his Moon conjunct your Mars, his Saturn-Neptune across your Eastpoint axis, I doubt it was easy for you to stay out of the line of fire.

What I'm not clear about: What kinds of things did he do to himself? How was he self-destructive, self-unravelling, etc.?
No, it is not was not easy for me at all.
It's still not.

In trying to pin down specific events or actions that I observed I think a very large part of it all is what you spoke about above in regards to isolation and anti social behaviors. It felt at times that he prided himself on being as offensive as possible....the smoking and cursing and complaining and negative self talk and burst of anger and violence, the loud "Death Metal" music......he made people (ie my friends and family and neighbors) not want to be around him.

In this topic addiction and alcoholism show as traits for self destructiveness. He is both an alcoholic and an opiate, nicotine and caffeine addict. This is part of the greater picture of a general abuse of consumables...or gluttony. He can and will gorge on food till he can't move.

The most self destructive habit that I can articulate is what I would attribute to the moon Saturn apect in which he would fixate on a negative event (ie. The buffalo Bill's lost the game) and spiral it downward into the most horrible personal affront and wallow in how horrible every single thing in the world is.

A pattern of behaviors in which he became entangled with law enforcement made it obviously that he was suicidal and doing everything in his power to create a "suicide by cop" scenario.....as well as doing and saying everything imaginable to try to provoke people (esp. Me) to attack and fight him.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:09 am

In starting this topic, it was inevitable - if we really discussed it - that "beyond unpleasant" things would emerge. Nonetheless: Brrrrrrr.....
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Veronica
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1542
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:37 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Veronica » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:26 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:09 am
In starting this topic, it was inevitable - if we really discussed it - that "beyond unpleasant" things would emerge. Nonetheless: Brrrrrrr.....
Seemingly so,
Yet

I had to use the dictionaries to look up this word you used in reference to Sun Moon aspects: indemnification.

I have this aspect and I know that I am self destructive in many ways. All humans are, to a degree. In reflecting on my own habits and choices that do in a very real way tear me to pieces, I have found so many things that are NOT me that I thought were, and things that I didn't think were a part of me that were.

It was only in the actual process of tearing down myself was I able to clear away the things that I didn't need and get the things I did.

LeiLei
Planet Member
Planet Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:45 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by LeiLei » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:24 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 pm
Thanks for another example. Gosh, I really wish we had a time for this. I think the angles would make all the difference in the word. I don't suppose you have a way to get that?
No I'm sorry. I lost contact with his family. I will say his aggression was pointed more outwardly rather than against himself. It was just that the result of his behavior often led to his life destructing. His violence towards his partners only grew worse as time went on. His father was not in the picture & he was raised by women who constantly reminded him of how terrible his father was (violence, abandonment) while also telling him he was just like him! He may have been a poor example though.
Last edited by LeiLei on Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FlorencedeZ.
Zodiac Member
Zodiac Member
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 6:58 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:49 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:04 am


MARS PLACEMENTS & ASPECTS
In theory, Mars' sign would be expected to shows details of how we are harmed, including self-harm. That's the theory - needs observation.

There are, of course, the alcohol and other substance-abuse signatures of Mars in Mercury signs that might overlap the current category. (We probably shouldn't emphasize this too much since many - most? - of these cases involve a physical disease, not a self-harming psychological state. At the very least, there isn't a perfect overlap, it's a skinny Venn.)

Mars in Libra is strong on my radar for intentional self-harm. They do tend to be self-sufficient survivors most of the time, but this also makes them slow to ask for help. They live a bit on the social outskirts, can become cut off from other people, and get into a whole lot of trouble over the course of their lives. It's also the only chart factor I know outside of Mercury-Mars themes that stands out for alcoholism. I think there is a self-harming element here.

Mars in Capricorn tends to have much unresolved shadow, is vulnerable to dark moods, and carries around their darkness. This might become self-harming (even though usually it has outward-acting release valves that keep it healthy).

Mars in Pisces can be brooding and moody, pursing the extreme of depths and heights. I can see this becoming self-harming in the sense of, "Oops, that got out of control," but not necessarily intentional self-harm compared to other things I've cited.

I don't know if Mars in Aries is as anti-survival as Sun in Aries. In theory, it could be, but it's not obvious to me from observation.

Mars aspects easily show inadvertent self-harm in the sense of recklessness in one or another area of life, things getting out of hand, etc. This isn't what we're examining. (I mention it to distinguish it, but it is probably useful information by itself.)

Mars-Saturn aspects are usually extroverted, but the aspect can introvert as inner battles. It can be self-punishing. I think it has the potential to be more extreme than that. Also, Mars aspects with Saturn, Neptune, and Pluto are noted for different sorts of anger issues (sometimes anger control problems, sometimes suppressed anger, but usually boiling down to difficulty cleanly and appropriately expressing anger). As a generalization, this could feed self-destruction.

Beyond the anger issues, Mars-Neptune feels like it has the potential for self-destruction. It certainly has the potential for inadvertent self-destruction - those cases are really easy to find! - and (having the aspect myself) the energies seem to wildly outwardly expressed to wander often into intentional self-destruction. There is also fantasy as an important psychological release valve. Nonetheless, I feel I have to mention it much in the same fashion as Sun-Neptune but with more drama.

How about Mars in Cancer since this could be fighting demons from the past being self destructive?

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:49 pm

Could be. I see where you're coming from. I don't see that in te examples I know: They're more brooding and internalizing.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

LeiLei
Planet Member
Planet Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:45 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by LeiLei » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:38 pm

I think I might have an interesting chart for you to look over, Jim. I didn't think of her before because she has this subtle way about her. She kind of 'tries out' different forms of self-destructive behavior, shifting from one to another - cutting, drug use, alcohol, gorging on food & hiding it, & just kind of wasting away. Looking at her chart now I'm a little worried. There's not really anything identifying about her & she has told me she feels empty inside.

April 9, 1998, 8:24pm, Lawton, OK

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:36 pm

LeiLei wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:38 pm
...she has this subtle way about her. She kind of 'tries out' different forms of self-destructive behavior, shifting from one to another - cutting, drug use, alcohol, gorging on food & hiding it, & just kind of wasting away. Looking at her chart now I'm a little worried. There's not really anything identifying about her & she has told me she feels empty inside.
This is gold - many of the categories that were going through my mind all in one, and the chart is a good fit of what I was thinking about above.

The first thing my eye caught was the Virgo Moon (she's a Pisces-Virgo). I've often wondered if Virgo Moons were more prone to the binge-purge cycle and other eating disorders: Virgo Moon is in many ways "stereotype of a young teenage girl" and the more neurotic examples are often, therefore, reminiscent of "neurotic young teenage girl," if you get what I mean.

But the luminaries aren't the biggest thing about the chart: It's all three malefics converging on the angles! Mars 2° above Dsc and Saturn just over 3° apart (their midpoint 0°36' from the angles, with Neptune 3° off IC (Mars-Neptune mundane square 1°22'). The closely angular Saturn conjoins the Pisces Sun. (Saturn octiles Pluto 0°06'.) Benefics are all far from the angles. Add Neptune trine the Virgo Moon. Whoosh!

These is an extraordinary example of how someone malefic-dominated can hurt themselves We can break it down into the individual things she has done but, you're right, the overall pattern sounds like self-destruction itself.

"Feels empty inside..." That's a topic for a good counsellor. One could argue it from so many directions. It sounds (and the chart helps here) like she's saying she doesn't have any clear sense of who she is in any deep sense. She's shifting, malleable, elusive, not inclined to commit to identify herself as anything in particular - in fact, maybe not willing to commit at all. Pisces often have strong betrayal issues and she probably experiences that she's betrayed herself. - All the developmental drama seems to be around Dad (with Mom seeming to be 'missing' or... vaporous?). She does things that surge endorphins when she can, just so she can feel enough life-force.

"Feels empty inside..." Though this is probably stretching a pun (I have no evidence what I'm about to say has actual character meaning), I notice that her Moon rose within a few minutes of a black hole (called M87).
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

LeiLei
Planet Member
Planet Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:45 am
Gender:

Re: Self-Destruction

Post by LeiLei » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:54 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:36 pm

The first thing my eye caught was the Virgo Moon (she's a Pisces-Virgo). I've often wondered if Virgo Moons were more prone to the binge-purge cycle and other eating disorders: Virgo Moon is in many ways "stereotype of a young teenage girl" and the more neurotic examples are often, therefore, reminiscent of "neurotic young teenage girl," if you get what I mean.

But the luminaries aren't the biggest thing about the chart: It's all three malefics converging on the angles! Mars 2° above Dsc and Saturn just over 3° apart (their midpoint 0°36' from the angles, with Neptune 3° off IC (Mars-Neptune mundane square 1°22'). The closely angular Saturn conjoins the Pisces Sun. (Saturn octiles Pluto 0°06'.) Benefics are all far from the angles. Add Neptune trine the Virgo Moon. Whoosh!

These is an extraordinary example of how someone malefic-dominated can hurt themselves We can break it down into the individual things she has done but, you're right, the overall pattern sounds like self-destruction itself.

"Feels empty inside..." That's a topic for a good counsellor. One could argue it from so many directions. It sounds (and the chart helps here) like she's saying she doesn't have any clear sense of who she is in any deep sense. She's shifting, malleable, elusive, not inclined to commit to identify herself as anything in particular - in fact, maybe not willing to commit at all. Pisces often have strong betrayal issues and she probably experiences that she's betrayed herself. - All the developmental drama seems to be around Dad (with Mom seeming to be 'missing' or... vaporous?). She does things that surge endorphins when she can, just so she can feel enough life-force.

"Feels empty inside..." Though this is probably stretching a pun (I have no evidence what I'm about to say has actual character meaning), I notice that her Moon rose within a few minutes of a black hole (called M87).
She's always been taken care of, has never had a job. She has expressed a desire for independence but I think her sheltered existence has made her too weak/scared to actually go for it. She also had a hypochondriac period. Seeing her chart I'm wondering if she has any defense against these forces?

In her preteens her parents split, her relationship with her mom was strained & I think she was around 14 when she moved in with her dad. They've recently reconciled but for most of her teens her mom was more concerned with doing her own thing & they wouldn't speak for weeks. There was also court drama - her mom going after her dad's money & rumors of cheating (on both parents). Her dad was great in many ways but a workaholic & lacked emotional depth. I think she needed someone to notice something unique about her & provide a little insight into who she was. Instead she was told what she was going to do & she did, usually without resistance. For instance, she didn't want to go to college right away, preferring to get a job so she could figure herself out a little bit but was told she had to go. So she went. And now she's about to move to Colorado and she was told to just pack whatever she can into her vehicle & give the rest away. She just gives in, like she has no other choice. She does love Colorado though so may be this move will be the best thing for her.

Well, she does have black hair & very dark brown eyes!

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 13689
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Self-destructive Charlie Sheen

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:02 am

An example that just crossed my desk is actor Charlie Sheen, born September 3, 1965, 10:48 PM EDT, New York, NY (AA). Though coming from a privileged family and being virtually royalty (a "royal son") in the entertainment field - reflected, appropriately, in his Leo Sun and his Sagittarius Moon closely opposite Jupiter - and has actualized significant success before becoming a nearly "untouchable" actor, he has lived a deeply troubled, self-destructive life especially through his drug addiction. Unsympathetic commentators have suggested he should take up permanent life-time residence in a treatment facility since, after all, they're more or less luxury palaces.

I see that his chart is almost a picture-perfect of example of what I summarized above. The only exception is the strong Moon-Jupiter opposition, which likely refers to the benefits of a highly supportive family.

But look at the basics: His one closely angular planet is Mars, partile square MC. His only other foreground planet is Neptune. This starts us off suggesting a malefic-themed lifepath. Mars is in Libra, the one placement I singled out as "on my radar" for significant self-destruction (aside from its substance abuse vulnerability). Sun is opposite Saturn - or, rather, Sun-Saturn is the closest aspect of Saturn's wider oppositions to his Sun-Uranus-Pluto trio. Venus is more or less out of the picture for him, not a significant player in his chart. Sun-Saturn also trines-sextiles Mars.

If you take my descriptive post above as the "textbook," we can call this a textbook-perfect example.

-------------------------

I asked above whether Sagittarius luminaries were self-flagellating. I think they surely are, at least psychologically: Self-punishing if they fall short in any significant way, seeming to wield the whip of an animal trainer or religious flagellant. But does this work out in the sort of self-punishment we're examining in this thread? Taking a large block of eminent charts I've gathered, I filter our 43 Sagittarius Moons. Narrowing this to, say, Mars angular, I get four examples. Two of these don't seem destructively self-punishing (George Washington, Diamond Jim Brady). The other two are Sheen and Carla Van Raay, who is at least a complex case of shifting life-choices keyed to shifting morality: A sexually abused child, became a nun and educator, left that life for outside educator, after a troubled and disrupted marriage became a prostitute and eventually wrote about it in a book God's Callgirl. From that, became a counselor. I can't outright say this is self-destructive, but it's a case work mentioning (and loaded with a stunning number of Sagittarius themes).
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest