Parto's natal chart

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Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:01 am

Hello there.

I've been looking into Sidereal astrology off and on over the last 8 years. I've lurked on this forum and its previous incarnation quite a bit and gotten quite familiar with (at least) the basics. I feel I've gotten as far I can on my own regarding my understanding of natal astrology (which is my main interest) in general and of my birth chart in particular, and to fill the gaps in my knowledge, however big they might be, I need some help. The other reason I'm stepping out of the shadows is that, as I've grown throughout early adulthood and came to understand myself better over time, it's been increasingly clear that my natal chart accurately describes my fundamental character. The accuracy of the charts of some people I know has also been impressive. I cannot ignore the apparent reality of that and I owe it to myself to look deeper into it.

By the way, Jim Eshelman is the cause of my interest in astrology. His overall work has had a huge impact on me. Understanding myself, my place in the Universe and the life that is mine to live, and living it, has been my quest. I figured if someone who contributed so much to that places such great importance on (Sidereal) astrology there has to be something to it. So, Jim, if you read this, I hope you're doing well, and it's great to be in touch.

Birth data redacted for now (if you already have it, it's fine).

I'm not looking for the basic rundown, though it's not unwelcome (I could always have missed something); in fact all comments are welcome. But here are some specific questions to start with:

Which planets are middleground and background? I get the aspects and the basic angularity well enough, but I'd like to delve into what's "supressed" or "weakened."

How much weight should I give to the Sun-Mars conjunction and the Sun-Pluto square in understanding my Sun, especially when compared to the placement in Aquarius? Since the Sun is "what one really is," you can see why I'd be interested in looking at it correctly.

Thanks for reading and for any input.
Last edited by Parto on Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:20 pm

Porto, welcome (out in the open :) ) to Solunars - and thanks for the kind words.

I'll address your specific questions first and then, if time allows, throw in the basic data workup also.
Parto wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:01 am
Which planets are middleground and background? I get the aspects and the basic angularity well enough, but I'd like to delve into what's "supressed" or "weakened."
I'm going to answer this in terms of my preferred working model rather than the classic model. The classic model marks half a house (15°) on either side of the angular cusps as foreground, cadent cusps as background, and succedent cusps as middleground. Over time (as explained at greater length elsewhere) I've come to think of 10° (one-third of a house, i.e., along the prime vertical) on either side of the angles as foreground; mid-succedent house to 10° after cadent cusp as background; and all the gaps in between as middleground.

Technical foreground are Moon, Mercury, and Uranus (with the later two very closely square Midheaven). We should include Neptune in this, too, for its wide conjunction to Eastpoint (between 2° and 3°), though otherwise it would be middleground. Other middleground are Pluto, Sun, Mars.

Your most background planet is Jupiter, 1°33' below the 12th cusp (I measure these along the prime vertical), then Venus 6°24' below 3rd cusp. Saturn is also background, 19°17' into the 2nd house.
How much weight should I give to the Sun-Mars conjunction and the Sun-Pluto square in understanding my Sun, especially when compared to the placement in Aquarius? Since the Sun is "what one really is," you can see why I'd be interested in looking at it correctly.
Great questions. Judging the relative importance of aspects is an art. There are several factors sometimes lumped under "strength" that I break apart because they show different kinds of things that all might pass for "strength" at different times.

Primarily strength of an aspect is determined by its orb. The outward expressiveness of an aspect is determined by the angularity of the planets. (Notice that this allows for something we see in real life: You can have a very strong impulse that has a hard time expression [close orb, background] or an easy time expressing [foreground]; or a weaker impulse that nonetheless has an easy time expressing [wider orb, closer angularity]; etc.) Third, when Sun or Moon is involved (regardless of orb or angularity) the aspect is going to integrate with or be a natural part of one's core nature. Finally (but hardly least important), hard aspects (conjunctions, oppositions, squares) express more dynamically and instinctively while trines and sextiles express more passively, more constrained by complexity, etc. All of these become considerations with a question like yours.

Your Sun-Mars and Sun-Pluto aspects are both Sun aspects, so they will more naturally align with your sense of self and your character core. They are all middleground, so there is neither intense inner pressure to express them nor repressiveness about it. They are dynamic aspects so their specific expression will be active and instinctual (think nefesh) not static and mental (think ruach). All of these mean we should pay more than passing attention to them.

The aspects themselves, though, are not the closest aspects by orb. They are Class 2 (wider, moderate orb) aspects with Sun-Mars bordering on Class 1 (close). You have nine closer aspects, five of which are dynamic ("hard") aspects. This makes them somewhat moderate in intensity. -- So, you have middleground, moderately close aspects that both give a moderate intensity to these aspects which, nonetheless, are closely identified with your ego-self center.

Does that make things clearer or did I muddy the waters?

To add another important consideration: Mars-Pluto by themselves have a vey close aspect, a 1°35' square. Mars-Pluto by itself is one of those five Class 1 (close) hard aspects, so we'd expect to see it quite clearly. It's neither foreground (pressured to express) nor background (suppressed), so it's probably in a pretty comfortable place.

Finally, instead of thinking of these in contrast to Sun's Aquarius placement, you might think of them all together in the sense that you have a Mars and Pluto shaded version of Aquarius. Both planets are comfortable enough with Aquarian ideas - for example, all three ideas have a kind of independence, uncooperativeness and rebelliousness (and Mars in Aquarius will have its own blend), so you can probably find a lot of Aquarian traits compatible with Mars and/or Pluto, or which take an easy sideroad down Mars-Pluto avenues.
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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:26 pm

Since you want to look at the suppressions etc.: One aspect of particular interest in your chart is Venus square Jupiter. It's a dynamic aspect only 0°11' but both planets are in the immediate background. In theory, this would be an example of a very powerful dynamic need that, however, is unexpressed.

Both planets are well-placed, Jupiter in its own sign and Venus exalted; yet they have no immediate avenue of expression. Also, the rest of your chart has no obvious Venus or Jupiter expressions (e.g., their signs dominant) and your strongest character elements lean antisocial more than social. I'm not saying you're not collaborative but that you tend to think and act outside of (and sometimes in defiance of) "polite social standards." That would be unusual for an 0°11' Venus-Jupiter square but common for someone who had the rest of your chart if Venus and Jupiter were simply deleted from the chart.

Sometimes very strong hard aspects in the immediate background appear as health issues - an understandable outcome for very strong inner needs and drives that go more or less unexpressed. If that's an outcome of your Venus-Jupiter square, we might major health issues related to the aspect or to the Pisces or Sagittarius body parts (lower abdomen or bronchial-pulmonary and upper torso generally, respectively). Health indications for Venus-Jupiter aspects can be involve hormones related to digestion and nutrition; pancreas gland, liver-kidney interaction (glucose synthesis); relaxation, body homeostasis (parasympathetic nervous system); general sense of well-being; and tin or copper toxicity.

The questions, then, are: How well is your Venus-Jupiter expressed? Are there specific Venus-Jupiter major characteristics that seem quite unexpressed by you? What else does this stir in your thoughts?
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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:28 pm

ANGULAR PLANETS & ASPECTS
Mercury conjunct Uranus (0°31')
Independent thinker. Curiosity and investigative spirit in most things. Mind unfettered by formality: solves problems and integrates data more intuitively. Rejects linearity, lacks rigor in learning. Many interests, diverse, often unusual (including astrology or occultism). Speech engages others’ attention, usually has something interesting to say; challenges convention or authority, dares to speak despite consequences. Gentle rebellious behavior (“bad boy”) seems rooted in, “Don’t tell me how to think.” Socially odd, but not unpopular for it.
Mercury square Midheaven (0°00')
Alert, attentive, observant, strategic, analytic. Mentally sharp, hard to fool (knows more about you than you think). Little emotional affect, hard to read. Nervous (anxiety? worry? touchy?). Easily bored without regular mental stimulation. Good at precise, detailed work. Curiosity drives sexual choices as much as any other factor.

Uranus square Midheaven (0°31')
Strongly individualistic, independent, going their own way. Needs freedom and breathing room (physical, intellectual) and frequent renewal (through new interests and experiences, shedding inhibitions, shaking loose stale conditions). Responds strongly to the new, unexpected, thrilling, colorful, exciting. Pragmatic realist anchored by naked truth. Clownish, fun. Prefers disclosure over mystery.
Moon conjunct Ascendant (2°33')
Adaptive in response to social, psychological, and environmental conditions (mask, roll, act). Impressionable, responsive, malleable, imaginative. Needs constant stimulation (of mind or senses). Strong sexual appetites; responsive to affection, friendship, sexual suggestion. Amiable, accommodating; sensitive, receptive, tender, empathic (touchy, moody, reactive). Vulnerable to judgments, displeasure, criticism. At home before an audience.
Moon conjunct Mercury (2°12')
Intellect fused with the emotions, especially with subconscious patterns; thus, quick at assessment, intuitive, strategic (cagey, deceptive). Personality dominated by intellect and nervous system. Tremendous mental output and capacity to absorb knowledge (apt at languages, good memory). Can seem ‘all business’ in emotional matters and emotionally stubborn in factual ones: Under duress, “reasonableness” competes with reactive emotion.

Moon conjunct Uranus (2°43')
A specie of genius (intellectually rebellious, roving, curious, investigative) is bursting to express itself – not wholly comfortable accepting outside guidance, often wondering why others don’t recognize its nature. Inquisitive, original, futuristic, seeking novelty and needing variety (“will try anything twice”). Free-spirited: psychologically lives outside of convention; but subject to tensions and stiffness from emotional stress.
Uranus conjunct Neptune (5°39')
Wanderlust, curious explorer, drawn to peer past horizons. Mythic, ritualistic sense of one’s position in the universal scheme. Knows that life and reality are weirder than anyone ever said. High-strung, sensitive.
MOON in CAPRICORN
Restless, confrontational. Resists persuasion, authority, and conformity. Sharp, unconventional mind. Socially charming; not self-disclosing. Humor, prankish, outlandish. Sexually attractive; wild libido. Identifies with the fringe, “bad boy” (but essentially wholesome). Dark, grotesque, shocking, disturbing style (loves dark occult images). Vulnerable to dark moods. Often severe childhoods or early loss.
Moon sextile Pluto (1°46')
Avoids habitual conformity and conventional conditioning; willing to “march to a different drummer” with little concern for others’ rules. Maverick, outsider, gently resists authority. Restless, can uproot on little notice. Deeply inquiring mind.
SUN in AQUARIUS
Scientific, analytic, inventive, pragmatic, non-dogmatic. Broad interests. Unconventional, provocative, controversial. Ignores race, class, rank. Truthful, altruistic, helping. Understands people. Solitude, alienation, undemonstrative. Haughty, unapologetic, but rarely pretentious. May not understand time.
Sun conjunct Mars (3°31')
Action, drive, accomplishment, courage. Restless, forthright, (hasty, impatient, temperamental). Physical aggression, strong sexual needs. Industrious, instinctive leader.
MARS in AQUARIUS
Powerful pragmatic mind is progressive, non-dogmatic. Analytical, innovative, resourceful. Visionaries (yet pragmatic first). Bold individual. Avoids automatic herd compliance. Honest, unpretentious. Follows own instincts, not advice. Gregarious, loves life, vested in friendship, helpful to friends (helper in general). Understands people. Sexually uninhibited.
Mars square Pluto (1°35')
Normally well-mannered, congenial, even docile behavior sits atop a stockpile of explosive force. It may be (1) suppressed, blocked personal power, (2) owned, disciplined, available personal power, or (3) pathological, brutal, destructive power. (Health in this is reflected in how freely appropriate anger is expressed.) Must express this enormous force somehow (especially physical force), e.g., (1) directly, (2) attracting violence, or (3) health crises. Sexual energies explosive or poured into driven work. Vulnerable to burnout. Sensitive to pressure or coercion; pot-stirrers, resistant to outside control, defiant of arbitrary restrictions; willing to live “outside the norm” on social patterning. In a productive, on-track life: a mark of genius and distinctive creativity, acutely alive with a quiet energy; the others are trouble, can’t seem to avoid breaking or upsetting something.
MERCURY in CAPRICORN
A quiet (playfully perverse) pride in their disagreeable opinions and autonomous thinking. Enjoys shock value of spouting unusual ideas. Mind inquisitive, enthusiastic, with a sense of the macabre. Resists being convinced. Careful, methodical, orders information effectively.
Mercury sextile Pluto (0°26')
Thinking is individual, unusual, outlier. Probing, thinks deeply about things. Mind may ride the edge of normalcy (may slip off): enthusiastic, excitable, impatient (irritable, easily frustrated, stubborn, challenging). Instinct for abstractions.
VENUS in PISCES
Fantasy relationships. Tender, vulnerable, exploring mystery of another. Wants “true friend” who will not betray. Charmers. Weave endearing images, tend to get their way. Seducible, suggestible, easily enticed. Fond of strong erotic imagery and sensory stimuli. Passions easily aroused, torrential. Mystic; God connection. Receptive to beauty. Artistic interests. Can be unreasoning, led by instinct (a few are plain crazy).
Venus square Jupiter (0°11')
Fundamentally social creatures. Warm, friendly, giving, hospitable, gracious (reigns over social events). Nearly always liked (great need to be liked, desires positive attention and appreciation more than most, usually gets it). At home in a fine lifestyle (or as celebrity, aristocrat, etc.). Indulgent in all oral pleasures, e.g., preparing and eating fine food. Usually has an easier time through life despite sometimes harsh starts (experience unusual luck or patronage), usually partner well. Inclination to extravagance, possible “spoiled brat” attitude (risk of mild narcissism).
OUTER PLANET ASPECTS
Uranus sextile Pluto (0°57')
Feels unbound by convention or authority; will challenge or dismiss them. Seeks new ideas, new ways, more options. Strong opinions; easily provoked to share them. Restless, impatient, frustrated (angry). In youth, often seems without direction (this usually resolves with maturity).

Saturn sextile Uranus (2°32') & Mutual Reception
More of a lone wolf than team-player. Autonomous, self-willed, resists persuasion, makes decisions on own terms. Hard to pigeon-hole, thinks and acts outside of stereotypes or expectations. Much of their life is spent “holding it together.”
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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:18 pm

So I got it right that Jupiter, Venus and Saturn are background. Thanks for confirming it. Yes, I've been mulling over my Venus-Jupiter square. I definitely feel both its presence and some of its supression. I say "some" because I've always thought it had some expression—I've been decently "lucky," even getting away with things in life that I really shouldn't have, in the sense that things seem to "work out" even if I'm not as diligent as I could have been, even if it takes some time. But I could be missing something. There's plenty of struggle too, of course. It doesn't help that Capricorn is the fall of Jupiter (and it's Rim!—fun times, but also rough). I've definitely been able to look back at my life and see the lack of Jupiter, so to speak, and the little I've felt of it (real or assumed) kinda makes me wish I had more.

The health part is interesting. Some of what you list rings a bell, but not in any major way, except for the vague "general sense of well-being." I've dealt with (what I'll simplify by calling it) depression ever since puberty, and especially from age 18 onwards. I'm actually positive that it has largely to do with nutrition, so hey, maybe that fits too.

Another Venus-Jupiter expression of note is being generally liked by people. That fits; people tend to like me or at least try really hard to. The flipside, I'd say, is that I too often have been unable or unwilling to accept from people what they're willing to give me (which, of course, includes giving back). This realization is relatively recent, and for obvious reasons I haven't been able to explore its implications much for the past year.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:20 pm
They are dynamic aspects so their specific expression will be active and instinctual (think nefesh) not static and mental (think ruach).
Oh, I don't think I've seen you put the difference in those terms before. That's quite excellent! Definitely makes sense from what I've noticed. Might have just kicked my understanding of static aspects into the next level.

Your notes on Sun-Mars-Pluto are quite helpful, pretty much what I was looking for.
Last edited by Parto on Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Don't forget that people generally like Capricorn Moon people... perhaps especially people you tend to hang with.
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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:07 pm

That could account for that part. Venus-Jupiter is pretty much the only "easy-going" part of my chart as far as I'm able to tell and I really liked having this aspect; didn't even consider it being background and its implications until a few days ago. Maybe that's why I want to think it has had some expression. Kinda like someone who just switched from Tropical to Sidereal and doesn't wanna let go of their Tropical Sun-sign.

What about Saturn, would it being background have any significant implication, considering it's not very aspected? (Is it really sextile Uranus? That didn't show in the chart I generated—but everything else is the same as you gave above.) I'd say there's plenty of Saturn via Capricorn; I don't know if the planet itself being background would make anything "better" or "worse" in Saturnian matters.

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:58 pm

Your Venus-Jupiter would be activated by transits, and might have lunar or solar angles hit it, so there would be some expression that way.

Saturn has a lot to do with a sense of humor.

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:10 am

Thank you, Jupiter. (Get it?)

What are solar/lunar angles, by the way?

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:21 am

The angles of the solar and lunar return charts.

Yeah, I got it. ;)

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Danica » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:08 pm

Hi, Parto from Porto, welcome to (engagement-in-the-living-stream-of) solunars!

I do not think that we can ever have enough Aquarius Suns as active members here :)
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:38 pm
Don't forget that people generally like Capricorn Moon people...
LOL, so true - I surprise myself with this particular tendency every once in a while, quite so often! :lol:
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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:00 pm

Thanks.

Could relocation indefinitely or permanently (while in that location) activate a natal background aspect? If yes: could relocation supress natal foreground or middleground aspects?

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:13 pm

Parto wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:00 pm
Could relocation indefinitely or permanently (while in that location) activate a natal background aspect? If yes: could relocation supress natal foreground or middleground aspects?
Relocation can indeed bring planetary energies into the foreground or background, though more the former than te latter - you don't really lose anything from the natal chart no matter where you move.

As for "permanent," that would be a matter of habits. Theoretically, if you move under a planet line, it will activate that energy only while you live there. However, if you spend a decade or two there (or some long period of time - measured in several years) then you probably will have learned how to use those energies, come to understand that part of yourself, and formed new habits of behavior. Even when you move away and the planetary energies are withdrawn, you'll likely keep those habits for a long time.
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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:33 pm

Got it. (Wouldn't wanna get rid of Mercury, Uranus & Moon anyway—not entirely.)

Could the Class 2 sextile with the Moon give Venus some expression?

I looked at my planetary lines for Jupiter (and secondarily Venus) around the world to check for places I could relocate to. I'm not in love with any of them, though most are interesting in some way. In any case, moving, especially very far, is not gonna be feasible for me in the near future—at the very least for the next couple of years. So I'm looking at this Venus-Jupiter matter as thoroughly as possible within my current possibilities.

I have a few more thoughts and questions regarding this. Since it's more broadly a "background close hard aspects" matter that I have in mind, I think I'll post it elsewhere in the forum. It could interest and benefit others.

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:08 pm

Parto wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:33 pm
Got it. (Wouldn't wanna get rid of Mercury, Uranus & Moon anyway—not entirely.)

Could the Class 2 sextile with the Moon give Venus some expression?
Yes, some. It's not a very strong factor, mostly psychological, adding some attractiveness, charm, gentleness.
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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:08 pm

Exercising going planet by planet, but listing them strongest to weakest.

Uranus: Almost exactly angular. Sun & Mars (and Saturn) in Uranus's sign. Well-aspected, including aspects to all other angular planets, one of which is a luminary.

Mercury: Exactly angular. Well-aspected, including aspects to all other angular planets, one of which is a luminary.

Moon: Closely angular. Well-aspected, including aspects to all other angular planets. Stellium, including Moon, in Moon's detriment.

Pluto: Middleground and well-aspected, including aspects to both luminaries (one wider, but dynamic; the other static, but closer) and to the three most angular planets, two of which are partile, but static.

Mars: Middleground, aspecting two middleground planets, one of which is a luminary. Stellium, including a luminary, in Mars's exaltation.

Saturn: Background and mostly unaspected. Stellium, including a luminary, in Saturn's sign.

Neptune: Middleground with wide conjunction to Eastpoint. Wide dynamic aspects with the three most angular planets.

Sun: Middleground with two relatively wide dynamic aspects to middleground planets. In its detriment.

Venus: Background, its only notable aspects being a partile dynamic aspect to another background planet, and a wide static aspect to an angular luminary. In its exaltation.

Jupiter: Background, its only aspect being a partile dynamic aspect to another background planet. In its own sign. Stellium, including a luminary, in Jupiter's fall.

'Twas fun.

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Soft Alpaca » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:36 pm

Can't make it out myself sense you redacted your birth chart data but I'd wager Uranus,Mars,and Saturn are probably the strongest in your chart (you forget that these all also rule your signs) plus the moon will adapt to these energies.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mars was on the Vertex, or another overlooked hot spot (angular midpoints etc.).

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Re: Parto's natal chart

Post by Parto » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:16 pm

I didn't forget about the dignities, as I referenced them in the relevant paragraphs in my breakdown above. Uranus "wins" due to having both angularity and rulership of the Sun (and Mars) sign. But Mercury and Moon are also angular, and that doesn't lose out to the luminary signs' dignities, as far as I can tell.

Mars and Saturn do have a presence, of course. At first I put Mars above Pluto; I switched them later. The planets in the middle are somewhat arguable, but the very top and the very bottom of the list is pretty solid, I would say.

I definitely do not have an angular Mars. I'd be a very different person if I did. I didn't think anyone else would give input on my chart anytime soon, so I removed my birth data provisionally as I'm not yet sure what the extent of my participation in the forum will be. For now, the chart data given above is all correct (except the Saturn sextile is with Neptune and not Uranus, for what that's worth).

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