In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

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sotonye
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In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by sotonye » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:57 pm

Whether in transits or in the Natal, Pluto functions to disrupt the order of things in a way that eventually ends in separation from other people; there is no transit to Pluto that is not conflictual, no transit by Pluto that is not separative, inconsiderate, rebellious, and no Natal configuration involving Pluto that is not socially stunted and cantankerous. Garth Allen calls Pluto the sponsor of miracles, of one in a million odds, but most of us will never experience this side of this unusual and distant planet or any side that we could sensibly consider positive or even neutral, which makes me think the neutral designation might not be the best fit! In what way is Pluto not like a Malefic?

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by sotonye » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:04 pm

I have a hard time seeing how the sponsor of separation isn’t outstandingly negative, I mean having a strong natal Pluto has always sucked a bit, I’ve always been apart from others since I was small and it always will be that way, it doesn’t make me happy or sad one way or the other but fundamentally it isn’t very good

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by SteveS » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:34 pm

Pluto is the sponsor of 'stunning' and 'shocking' events/incidents, and as you pointed out, most of the time it will act in malefic ways. But I know this: when Pluto partile transited my rising natal Jupiter I banked the most $ I ever obtained in my entire life by selling my business. It allowed me to meagerly retire in comfort with a simple boring life! I don't have time to write out all the details--but all of my close friends told me I pulled-off a miracle, because normally the competition to my business would have buried me with financial ruin. I pulled off the biggest business bluff in my entire life.

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by sotonye » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:38 pm

SteveS wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:34 pm
Pluto is the sponsor of 'stunning' and 'shocking' events/incidents, and as you pointed out, most of the time it will act in malefic ways. But I know this: when Pluto partile transited my rising natal Jupiter I banked the most $ I ever obtained in my entire life by selling my business. It allowed me to meagerly retire in comfort with a simple boring life! I don't have time to write out all the details--but all of my close friends told me I pulled-off a miracle, because normally the competition to my business would have buried me with financial ruin. I pulled off the biggest business bluff in my entire life.
Hey Steve, this is extremely positive, you experienced the miraculous side mentioned by Garth Allen, but if this sort of thing only happens once in a life time, and at any other time Pluto operates in malefic fashion, can’t we call it a Malefic?

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Jim Eshelman
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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:00 pm

Your examples are primarily about the transiting effect, but let's start with what's most important: Pluto as a factor in the natal chart. Pluto is at least a neutral planet in that regard - resembling benefics only in the antisocial sense but more inclined to kindly than unkindly behavior. (Pluto angular alone tends to be gentle; with benefics it tends to be gentle with malefics it tends to be harsh. That's neutral-to-benefic overall.)

At root, Pluto represents the need for authenticity. It's seemingly antisocial characteristics arise from the fact that most social patterning in our culture is inauthentic {bs}. Pluto is quite at odds with that.

But there is nothing in Pluto that wants to cause harm, as there is in the malefics.

By transit, it's a similar thing: Pluto purges {bs}. This is a neutral-to-positive thing. It clears inauthenticities.
sotonye wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:57 pm
Whether in transits or in the Natal, Pluto functions to disrupt the order of things in a way that eventually ends in separation from other people
Not invariably separative. Pluto to Venus can be elopement as easily as divorce. Pluto to Jupiter can exalt the lowly to unexpected greatness just as much as it can drag the lofty into the gutter. Pluto to Sun reinvents one's life by disclosing new authentic truths about oneself that often lead to one switching lines and heading down a new road.

It's disruptive and separative in the sense that it never leaves one's life unchanged. One would have to hold that stability and predictability are inherently good if one wished to call this reinvention "malefic," which I think would be a hard case to make.
there is no transit to Pluto that is not conflictual
Conflict? I'm not at all sure that's true. There's a great deal from Pluto that isn't conflictual and, when conflict occurs, it's usually because somebody else has a problem with the new direction Pluto is taking us.

Pluto to Sun is self-definition - leaving behind what one has been to step into what one will be next. Pluto to Moon is primarily purgative of old patterns and often rewrites one's emotional life (though, yes, often there are trembles and echoes in the environment when this happens, but not always - quite often it results in a clarified psychological health). Pluto to Mercury remaps the way your mind is organized and how you think. Pluto to Venus either opens widely new relationship doors, slams old ones behind us, or both. Pluto to Mars can be rough - it's Mars! - but has some great positive benefits also. And so on.
no transit by Pluto that is not separative, inconsiderate, rebellious
Separative, yes. I can see why that would appear malefic to someone with such a social-driven chart as yours :) Rebellious is fair, but, again, why is that a negative? Pluto only rebels against inauthenticities {bs}. Inconsiderate? It certainly can seem that since it does tend to place attention back on oneself as a first priority, though Pluto is not intrinsically inconsiderate.
and no Natal configuration involving Pluto that is not socially stunted and cantankerous.
Cantankerous is in the eye of the beholder - again, Pluto rightly rejects others' expectations, judgments, etc. But with "socially stunted" I disagree entirely. Yet I can see why a Jupiter-driven person (especially a Moon-Jupiter-Venus driven person) would see it that way. You do seem to have a judgement that social graciousness is an outright virtue. There are many socially mature people who would disagree with that. The single most Plutonian person I know well is also an exemplar of kindness, though of course the place where she periodically {nasses} people off is that she won't go along with something for the sake of going along with it, She makes independent decisions about most things and speaks her mind plainly.
Garth Allen calls Pluto the sponsor of miracles, of one in a million odds, but most of us will never experience this side of this unusual and distant planet or any side that we could sensibly consider positive or even neutral
BTW, "miracle" doesn't necessarily mean a good thing. The word means "wonder" - a "wonder to behold" - and ultimately means something so far outside the odds that it seems unlikely to occur. However, under Pluto it occurs.
which makes me think the neutral designation might not be the best fit! In what way is Pluto not like a Malefic?
In what way is being uncompromisingly true to one's authentic nature inherently malefic? At root (and operating at its best, without external interference), that's all that Pluto is about.

PS - Since I mentioned your predominantly social-driven nature a few times, I should mention that my two closest aspects are a 17' conjunction of Uranus with one benefic and a 13' square of Pluto with another benefic. I innately regard change, transformation, shifting ground etc. as the highest good things. I've also lived two-thirds of my life where Pluto is year after year on a Solar Return angle. I've easily identified with the Biblical maxim to "die daily." I can't imagine surviving a life of persistent sameness. This surely affects my more positive relation to Uranus and Pluto. I think there is no virtue higher than trueness to one's innate self, and my lifelong investment in astrology has been for the specific purpose of creating tools for people to understand the dynamics moving in them and shaping them.
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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by Soft Alpaca » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:49 pm

I've always seen Pluto as purely unbiased. Like a light switch (now what turns it on or off is a mystery to me). Pluto can give great power or take all power away, it is not biased at all in this process.

I have a hard Pluto-Moon aspect, it in no way even compares in nature to my trine Saturn-Moon. As a comparison my Saturn-Moon (plus my Mars sign) tend to bring out a raw, wild, dark nature [mainly sexual/mental] especially when they are illuminated or made a angular in transits. These are the malefic traits one would associate with Saturn/Mars.
Pluto on the other hand in my case molds the moon to its own nature. Some days I'm very moody going from 1 to 100 in seconds, these days are also days where I tend to feel everyone's emotions as well as have a very strong "psychic sense", ie omens, dreams etc. are very vivid. Other days I dont feel a thing, and I become morally ambiguous. I've meet other Pluto-Moons both online and in real life who go through the same thing, however each person has their own preference to which side of this coin they prefer.

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by Lance » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 pm

Great question.

Great thread.

I was developing the same bias due to all the separation.

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by Victor » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:30 am

I wonder if Pluto can be about losing money. Can Pluto be about intelligent desires? Can it be about gambling? Can it be about engineering?

Can Pluto be too deep? Does Pluto in the chart make people serious?

Etc. Lots of questions to ask. I wonder if Pluto enhances engineering skills.

Has Pluto been researched?

I wonder

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by Soft Alpaca » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:30 am

Ok ok, up until engineering?? Where in the heck did that come from...

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:13 pm

You're thinking in concrete "thingish" nouns.

Planets are verbs.
Pluto is separating. Singling out.

Hey, go here. Download (don't try to read it on that site) the booklet. It's called Taking the Kid Gloves off Astrology and it's by Garth Allen (aka Donald Bradley.) His keyword for Pluto is "genesis." Bradley is right up there with Fagan and this will really open your eyes. Worth re-reading every couple of years too.

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Re: In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:16 pm

Victor wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:30 am
I wonder if Pluto can be about losing money. Can Pluto be about intelligent desires? Can it be about gambling? Can it be about engineering?

Can Pluto be too deep? Does Pluto in the chart make people serious?

Etc. Lots of questions to ask. I wonder if Pluto enhances engineering skills.

Has Pluto been researched?
Pluto has been massively researched over the last 90 years and, yes, we do understand it quite well.

While any planet may be involved in any activity depending on the underlying psychological motives and conditions for that person at that time, in general I can answer:

Pluto is not about losing money per se, though transiting Pluto dramatically rearranges life conditions and significant, drastic, life-altering loss of money could be one of thousands of possibilities.

I don't know if Pluto can be "too deep." Can anything be "too deep"? I think of deep as desirable in the sense that the word "too" never applies psychologically (though I suppose it could apply to ill-constructed diving crafts or overly ambitious physical insertions - but neither of these events tends to be a Pluto event).

A strong natal Pluto sometimes could pass for "serious," because Pluto people lean toward less interactivity than most others. Sometimes, for example, a strong Pluto can be confused for a strong Saturn.

There is no intrinsic connection of Pluto to gambling or engineering per se.

Whilew Pluto has been extensively researched, your post makes we curious whether you have done your own homework on what has been learned. Here's a passage from Cyril Fagan you might want to check out:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29#p101
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