Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Q&A and discussion on the meanings of the Zodiacal Constellations, Sun and Moon sign-meanings, etc.
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Jim Eshelman
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Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:55 pm

Welcome to the Sun in Capricorn discussions project, which will run January 14 - February 12, 2017 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Sun in Capricorn people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

Here are Sun in Capricorn interpretive resources on the forum:
Primary section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p164
Garth Allen: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p139
Cyril Fagan: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=101#p609
Rupert Gleadow: https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=91
Manilius: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121#p747
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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:55 pm

Iaomai wrote:Thank you for providing this discussion. It has helped me focus my attention.

I've been looking at the primary list of characteristics and trying to to discern what ties each one specifically to the idea of Capricorn instead of just being a seemingly random list of characteristics.

So far, I've had the most success comparing the list to the description of the Mars-Saturn aspect because I've seen Jim say in multiple places that a sign is best understood as a combination of its ruling and exalted planets.

With each characteristic on the list, I ask, "Is this Saturn limiting the Mars nature, or is this Mars having a party about the Saturn nature?" - the first representing the sense of limitation and the second representing a compensation. This has really helped the list to make sense.

I'm sure this is the most obvious thing to many of you, but it finally clicked for me.

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:56 pm

Yes, that's one excellent approach, except I'm not sure the idea of the aspect is the right approach - more the co-existence of the planetary qualities - but often these amount to the same thing.

These traits all came from observation, not theory, but of course they were organized and put into language in ways that are consistent with theory. If I were to compose an interpretation of Capricorn based entirely on theory, it would be this:

First, characteristics of the nature of Saturn and characteristic of the nature of Mars. (In practice, nearly all of these traits are pure Saturn, which seems to me, from observation, the far stronger presence; but, in theory, they would have equal voice.

Second, characteristics unlike those of Moon and unlike those of Jupiter. This list would resemble the foregoing because Jupiter-Saturn, Moon-Saturn, and Moon-Mars are natural polarities of generally opposite behaviors.

Third, it's a Rim constellation.

Fourth, it embodies mythic archetypes of Capricorn. These are complicated, and are a study in themselves. One of the strong voices that shows the culture-building and almost messianic quality is the Babylonian god Ea, and of course Pan and the satyrs. Another important symbolic voice is the entire stream of goat-embodying devil images that come through Western mythologies.

Finally, some traits come from the Triplicity, which is essentially Jung's Thinking type of personality; but the Triplicities are the least important.

This, as I said, would be a theoretical composition, but it does match the observation quite well. Of these, Saturn is the strongest, Mars and Rim are close behind.

Thanks for joining in on this!
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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:56 pm

Arena wrote:My favourite uncle of all time is born 22nd January 1962. He has always seemed like an archetype of an Aquarius to me. Because of him, my partner and a few people I know I sometimes am in between, a hybrid that am about to believe that the two zodiacs somehow merge or that we can see traits of both tropical and sidereal in each person.

I just casted his chart now and to my utter surprise he would have five planets in Capricorn with Fagan-Bradley! I am in disbelief now. But I must make a note that his Sun-Saturn-Venus conjunction in Capricorn is quincunx Uranus and his Moon is possibly opposite his Jupiter and/or Mercury and quincunx Mars ... but if he is born close to the later midnight his Moon would be conjunct Uranus. I can possibly see a little bit of Saturnian nature in him - but I can also see a lot of Uranian nature in him.

So what can I tell you about him.
The first I remember about him in my childhood is that he was philosophical and he still is. He is also funny, telling jokes - but can also be serious although we always laugh a lot when we meet. Very intelligent. We like each other and we can talk so much about all kinds of stuff, futuristic reformist ideas, philosophy, we share an interest in real estate and we are the same in being independent thinkers and doers. We have sometimes joked that we are very much alike and he is my only relative that I really can connect to, it´s like our minds can merge, that we almost know what we are thinking and as I grew older we have become real friends. He is a very friendly and likable man, has his Sun conjunct both Saturn and Venus. He is very tall. He has told me he has seen into another dimension and he is in a way religious, but not in the Christian kind of way, but believes in reincarnation, his philosopher's writing that he began to read when he was young and continues to do.
He has always been very adventurous and entrepreneurial spirit, he starts companies and runs them, some have failed and some worked. The one that worked for the longest time is publishing a Scientific magazine. He's run an insurance company, been in sales, had a printing company, he has worked with painting houses and renovating and now building a couple of houses (which he likes). We might do some real estate renovations together in coming years. He has had his ups and downs, has had lots of money, but also lost everything in between. Many years back he smuggled drugs and went to prison (I visited him). He also has artistic talents, has painted some pretty good paintings that have this philosophy in them. Science interests him, he is futuristic minded and not afraid to think outside the box. I used to admire his relationship with his wife of 25 yrs ... but they have divorced now. He cheated on her and was not present very much in later years. But he loved her anyway and they are good friends now. He has now told me that he cheated many many times and had lots of different lovers, even when he was married. He seems to be able to detach and want freedom in love-life.

So out of all that, what would be Capricornian about this man? Well, possibly that he has always wanted or preferred to work for himself, as in starting his own companies. Also the fact that he loves building houses. Some might say the philosophy and science interest as well.

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:57 pm

This is a useful discovery. A great deal that people historically think of as Aquarius is definitely Capricornian. Whether true of your uncle, I suspect this trend in general is the confusion of the Uranus need for freedom, and doing things differently, and the defining Saturn them of autonomy needs. Take the compelling necessity of individual autonomy, add Mars fire to it, and it is no wonder that more generals in both the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War had Capricorn Suns than any other.

Your notes on him below are great. One Saturn/Capricorn keyword after another!
Arena wrote:The first I remember about him in my childhood is that he was philosophical and he still is. He is also funny, telling jokes - but can also be serious although we always laugh a lot when we meet. Very intelligent. We like each other and he is a very friendly and likable man, has his Sun conjunct both Saturn and Venus. He is very tall. He has told me he has seen into another dimension and he is in a way religious, but not in the Christian kind of way, but believes in reincarnation, his philosopher's writing that he began to read when he was young and continues to do.
He has always been very adventurous and entrepreneurial spirit, he starts companies and runs them, some have failed and some worked. The one that worked for the longest time is publishing a Scientific magazine. He's run an insurance company, been in sales, had a printing company, he has worked with painting houses and renovating and now building a couple of houses (which he likes). We might do some real estate renovations together in coming years. He has had his ups and downs, has had lots of money, but also lost everything in between. Many years back he smuggled drugs and went to prison (I visited him). He also has artistic talents, has painted some pretty good paintings that have this philosophy in them. Science interests him, he is futuristic minded and not afraid to think outside the box. I used to admire his relationship with his wife of 25 yrs ... but they have divorced now. He cheated on her and was not present very much in later years. But he loved her anyway and they are good friends now. He has now told me that he cheated many many times and had lots of different lovers, even when he was married. He seems to be able to detach and want freedom in love-life.
Your notes on him are great. One Saturn/Capricorn keyword after another! (He sounds more Leo Moon than Cancer... just from what you've said... but maybe not.)

So out of all that, what would be Capricornian about this man? Well, possibly that he has always wanted or preferred to work for himself, as in starting his own companies. Also the fact that he loves building houses.[/quote]
Pretty much everything, I think! Here, let me break down what you wrote and paraphrase a bit to tighten it up:

Philosophical (interested in weighty subjects in general).
Funny, but can be serious - tends to laugh a lot.
Very friendly, likable.
Religious-like (even though not orthodox).
Capricorn's aren't necessarily "adventurous and entrepreneurial," but also not NOT that. There is a fundamental need for control, finding one's own way, making one's own decisions - everything that comes under the heading of highly autonomous. So self-employment (e.g.) is certainly compatible.
Starts companies and runs them, some have failed and some worked - again, consistent with the themes, even if not true of all Caps.
Insurance company. Real estate. Sales. Printing company (the Saturn word is press). Hard work as well, including working on houses etc. Maybe the science.
He has had his ups and downs, has had lots of money, but also lost everything in between - more like Aries, but not unusual for Caps (hard-earning vs. hardship cycles).
Willing to break the law (or be his own law). "not afraid to think outside the box" is probably just the autonomous "running my own damn life" spirit.
Horny-goat working numerous goat-pens. Maintains distance in his love-life (unless there's one that he goes all-in for).

The only things you mentioned that aren't easily headed under Capricorn (not necessarily at odds, but not Cap traits per say) are high intelligence, and artistic talents (very rare for Cap - I've only ever found one great classic painter Cap, Cezanne; perhaps your uncle's Sun-Venus-Saturn works out that way, or the Moon-sign gives a flare).
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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:57 pm

Arena wrote:Very interesting to see your view, as I've never really thought of him as a Capricorn - but I see what you mean in what you say and comparing it to the notes about Capricorn.

I remember also that he was probably the only grown up person to show genuine interest in my astrological interest when I was reading it during my teenage years. He encouraged me to go on reading about it and said that he believed the planets had influence on life on Earth and human beings. He really meant it. He still consults an astrologer every now and then.

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:58 pm

Arena wrote:
The only things you mentioned that aren't easily headed under Capricorn (not necessarily at odds, but not Cap traits per say) are high intelligence, and artistic talents (very rare for Cap - I've only ever found one great classic painter Cap, Cezanne; perhaps your uncle's Sun-Venus-Saturn works out that way, or the Moon-sign gives a flare).
Maybe his Moon is conjunct my Mercury in Cancer, so it would be opposite his Mercury and Jupiter.
I would think the Venus tight conjunction to his Sun may be responsible for the artistic talent.

I would also like to add that he is not traditional, he is not in the past - he is future minded.
Another not so Capricorn trait is that he is a risk taker, he is not cautious.

Now I have to ask him if he knows his birth time.

Added: I wonder if he is indeed a double Rim like myself!

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:58 pm

Arena wrote:
The only things you mentioned that aren't easily headed under Capricorn (not necessarily at odds, but not Cap traits per say) are high intelligence, and artistic talents (very rare for Cap - I've only ever found one great classic painter Cap, Cezanne; perhaps your uncle's Sun-Venus-Saturn works out that way, or the Moon-sign gives a flare).
Maybe his Moon is conjunct my Mercury in Cancer, so it would be opposite his Mercury and Jupiter.
I would think the Venus tight conjunction to his Sun may be responsible for the artistic talent.

I would also like to add that he is not traditional, he is not in the past - he is future minded.
Another not so Capricorn trait is that he is a risk taker, he is not cautious.

Now I have to ask him if he knows his birth time.

Added: I wonder if he is indeed a double Rim like myself!

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:59 pm

Alexandra wrote:Your uncle and I were both born 1/22. We share a love of painting and working with our hands.
This is a digression, and I don't want to take it offtrack too far... but when I see a statement like this, I wonder if there is a degree symbolism. Usually I can't find one - chasing these may be a fools' errand most of the time - but I still occasionally look.

One thing that interests me for these two 8° Suns is that the area from 7°47' to 10°00' Capricorn is in a Venus sub-zone of a Sun Nakshatra. There are some clues that these might, with enough work, turn out to be "degree symbolism" zones, so I mention it. The only other thing in that region known to me is Altair at about 7° Capricorn, which is historically deemed a Mars-Jupiter themed star, not artistic per se.
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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 9:00 pm

Iaomai wrote:I just read the section on Hubs, Spokes, and Rims.

http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=40& ... d1d798#p87

It's hilarious (in the unexpected and fascinated sense) to compare the section on Rims with the personal descriptions above.

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:15 am

Does the moved thread only end here? The original thread had lots of valuable and interesting discussion on the Capricorn archetype and also lots of informative descriptions of Capricorn Sun people. :(

I mean it wasn't me who worked day and night moving all the old threads, but yeah...

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:26 am

I kept the posts that were out-and-out descriptive. After the above, most of the rest descended into chit-chat and even a bit of snarky argument IIRC, and I didn't move that.
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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:39 am

I should add, we started out with about 25,000 posts and ended up moving a bit over 7,000. Posts were being discarded left and right, like ruthlessly shredding paper. It's like moving from a house youve lived in for decades: You HAVE to go in with the idea that you are throwing away everything you can, and just pack what you most need. So there were some hard choices, and some ruthless slashing.
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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:46 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:26 am
I kept the posts that were out-and-out descriptive. After the above, most of the rest descended into chit-chat and even a bit of snarky argument IIRC, and I didn't move that.
I see. And yeah, I agree with you with your latter sentence.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:39 am
I should add, we started out with about 25,000 posts and ended up moving a bit over 7,000. Posts were being discarded left and right, like ruthlessly shredding paper. It's like moving from a house youve lived in for decades: You HAVE to go in with the idea that you are throwing away everything you can, and just pack what you most need. So there were some hard choices, and some ruthless slashing.
Yes I understand your predicament very much. I've even acknowledged it here:
TheScales_BothWays wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:15 am
I mean it wasn't me who worked day and night moving all the old threads...
Sorry if I seemed somewhat insensitive or anything... :(

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Re: Sun in Capricorn - sign project

Post by Venus_Daily » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:18 pm

I know this thread is a little old, but I was just going over Oprah's natal chart and the parallels between her life, her sun sign, and her famous role in the color purple. I feel like Oprah's role as Sofia was the essence of Sun in Capricorn. Sofia very much like Oprah resisted everything and fought, and sadly if Oprah had been born the same time period as Sofia, she would have suffered the same fate or worse. The most iconic line from Sofia was "All my life, I've had to fight." Oprah describes this role as her coming to "God" moment, which is not too surprising dealing with the sun. As a child of a double Capricorn, this has helped me to relate to my mother a lot more.

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