Sun in Libra - sign project

Q&A and discussion on the meanings of the Zodiacal Constellations, Sun and Moon sign-meanings, etc.
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Jim Eshelman
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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:53 am

I think it is, Flo. I don't have the exact pathway worked out - am not yet sure of the psychological tracing of this - but I tend to think you are right (or, at least, mostly right). It's easier to find a few of these among women with Libra Moons (a few ugly murderers), but they don't stand out for Libra Suns.

OTOH, this could be because the percentage of documented lives and documented birth charts is much higher for men. (We have more famous men's charts in general. It's a struggle to find notable women's charts in anything approaching equitable numbers.

The pathway might be the following (or I might be completely wrong about this - I'm trying to think it through based on what we do know). A Libra Sun has an identity core that aligns with what Western society has long characterized as feminine. For a few thousand years, that same Western society (and, to a lesser extent, Eastern) has been suppressive (attempting to be dismissive) of femininity as a source of power and equal standing. Libra men instinctively feel that things fundamentally true of them are things that male society dismisses, suppresses, and about which it broadly has ambivalent and even negative feelings. This creates a psychological conflict in most Libran men - the most important psychological conflict of all, I think - which is that what they most instinctively feel is true about themselves is socially unacceptable and admitting it will lead to their loss of power, standing, and the ability to effectively survive and thrive.

All this in a sign to which social inclusion and effective survival are the strongest needs!

Men who are able to consciously accept some significant block of this (culturally defined femininity) have much less conflict. For decades, I've noticed that the Libra men I knew who were most comfortable with themselves were gay or artists, for examples. Also, of course, someone who is broadly psychologically healthy will weather any such conflict far better.

All of the above is stuff I am sure is true about Libra men in general (with individual exceptions, especially resting on general psychological health and the ability to confront their own shadow). Now we get into more speculative reasoning, but (whether true or not) a reasonable line of conjecture.

For the less healthy examples, this pattern of social exclusion of what they instinctively feel is true about themselves - a deep self-loathing develops. (I think the word loathing is not too strong, and speaks to the depths of their darkness). Everything we see in these shadow examples, I think, is rooted in the magnitude of their self-loathing.
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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:25 pm

Thank you Jim. I would never be able to put this so nice and gently into words as you did. You have written about this before and I see a lot of the things you described as capturing the truth. Basically, in my environment from what I see is that if a Libra man is truly allowed to be who he is, the person is very balanced and gentle and much liked. He is at ease with himself. When parents or caretakers want the Libra man to act like a real man and toughen him up that's when the internal problems start. I have seen some very messed up Libra men struggling with their identities.

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:05 pm

Libra men with a so called darker (speculating here), self loathing and/or controversial side :
Marc Dutroux
Butcher of Hannover

Prince Laurent of Belgium
Herman Brood, singer
Jan Wolkers, artist
Bram Bakker, psychiatrist

Great humanitarians:
Job Cohen, former mayor of Amsterdam
Erasmus
Johannes Vermeer, painter
Michel Gauguelin, astrologer
Jan Terlouw, politician
Freddie Heineken

And of course Scales and Lance, our pleasant, delightful Libran men on this forum.

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:45 pm

FlorencedeZ. wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:05 pm
Marc Dutroux, Butcher of Hannover
A fascinating chart and another example of Sagittarius Moon. He also has a "heartless" Saturn-Pluto square on angles. Thanks.
Herman Brood, singer
Suicide rock star after a life of drug abuse and mental illness. (Interestingly for Libra also a painter of some note.) Sun-Pluto square surely added to social alienation.
Michel Gauguelin, astrologer
You listed him under humanitarian's, but this was also a tragic end. After decades of service, Michel killed himself. The most immediate trigger was that his answer to a challenge by antagonistic scientists did not confirm his work and he was going to suffer great embarrassment, but it had to be more than that. - In that sense, his culminating Jupiter (and perhaps a bit of Libra vanity) was his downfall. (At least one complication was that he was separated from his second wife, which was an emotional blow. He must have been quite alone, since he was dead a month before he was found in his apartment.)

Though Michel was always quite kind and gracious to me (his Venus exactly on my IC, and a classic Frenchman), his first wife Francoise (whom I thought always showed her German side quite fiercely) described him publicly as a medieval tyrant.
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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:50 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:45 pm
Though Michel was always quite kind and gracious to me (his Venus exactly on my IC, and a classic Frenchman), his first wife Francoise (whom I thought always showed her German side quite fiercely) described him publicly as a medieval tyrant.
oh Wow, didn't quite expect that and what a tragic ending he had.

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:21 am

I have finished my rewrite of the Sun in Libra interpretation notes. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161

The summary has been lightly modified and now reads as follows:
Relationship-centered. Polite, warm, affectionate (possessive, jealous). Enjoys beauty, comfort; often artistic. Appearance-conscious (vain). Tease, swings between gratify vs. deny (self, others). Peace (appeasement). Justice (righting wrongs). Self-sufficient, cautious, effective survivors. Feminine thrives better than masculine. Optimistic futurist (personally, socially).
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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:43 pm

First of all, loving the insightful discussion on here.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:53 am
For decades, I've noticed that the Libra men I knew who were most comfortable with themselves were gay or artists, for examples.
Myself included, I guess. Haha. I don't always express my feminine side to everyone, mostly just to close friends and when I am alone in my room, where I am free to be as myself, but I am thankful I have a few people and situations who/where I can express my feminine and masculine as I wish, as it makes me feel more honest to myself and it makes me feel I am authentically me. Sometimes, I do like to present masculine as well, especially in terms of style or fashion/outward appearance, as (as a gay man) it makes me feel attractive haha. That is probably my Cap Moon working.

I don't want this to become a rant ('cause I could go on and on about this :!: ) but wherever I go, there always seems to be a [straight] guy or a few of them who bother me. In particular, they want me to become "more masculine" or something. Interestingly, one of them has a partile Mars-Saturn opposition, another guy has a close Mars-Pluto conjunction, and another also has a partile Mars-Pluto semisquare, but along with a partile Mars-Jupiter opposition and a close Mars-Venus square, and is a Taurus.

Sometimes it's kind of fun (like they give me style tips, workout tips), other times it becomes a bit bothersome (they advise me to follow or respect a gender norm) and at its worst, it becomes borderline bullying: they try fight me so that I could "build some character" and "become a man" and fight them back. Then they tell me/warn me I should be someone who fights back 'cause I am an "easy target" and people will take advantage of my "softness" (as if they aren't doing exactly that, pfft) and what not. They don't like it if I don't care about them when they bother me, and at worst, I have to throw out a tantrum for them to leave me alone. I don't even present as that feminine of a person anyway in front of straight people. I just kinda appear as a "soft" nerd (my Moon-Mercury side of me I guess), which most people (especially women) take it as: "Aw, a kind/innocent/shy, good-mannered, hardworking, smart student", 'cause I do live in an Asian country and we Asians in general give a lot of importance to studies.

--------------------------------------
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:54 pm
First - and not mentioned often enough - there is a truly dark, even monstrous side to Libra.

...

But I don't think you can have a complete picture of Libra without acknowledging the truly monstrous, the dark soul-chambers as diabolical as the devil symbolism of Saturn's other constellation, Capricorn.
As a Libra-Capricorn, I do acknowledge that I have my own shadow side (I guess we all technically do). It is easy to let it take over but I cannot let that and I am slowly and steadily trying to work my way above it. It is easier to be above my shadows when life is busy and going well though.
--------------------------------------
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:21 am
I have finished my rewrite of the Sun in Libra interpretation notes. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161
I love it, Jim. I even love the little details you give to the main points, like:
Vanity not as much about appearance as of needing to "light up someone's eyes."
'Cause that is quite true haha.
Poor short-term memory. (Inattentive? Easily slips into relaxed alpha state.)
And this too! I so easily slip into that inattentive "alpha-state". :lol: In Manglish, (informal Malaysian English) we call that being in a "blur". :lol:

The statistics, though, seem to be in a very small font. I have to zoom the page to 175% to read them comfortably on my 1366x768 14-inch laptop screen.

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:20 pm

I wanted them to appear more like footnotes, mostly invisible unless you really want to read them. Easiest way: Press "quote" and everything is ordinary text.

Thanks for the feedback. Glad it works for you so well.
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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:36 pm

I notice that a few minor traits mentioned in the older interpretations didn't make it to the updated one. In particular, these traits, which I think are still accurate (at least for me):
Social adjustment problems. Key difficulties to overcome before they are comfortable relating socially.
It did take me a while to get more open and social with people. My Venus-themed solar return back in 2015 was certainly a strong catalyst for that.
Non-profound relationships (which, however, are profound to them!).
I agree with this. After all, I've had huge crushes on two guys solely/primarily because of their looks. 🙃 It could be my age though, and my double-rim luminaries.
- Don't go out much... would rather stick to "home territory." Fond of their homes... a comfortable, pleasant place to retreat. It just seems that they are never at home.
- Busy-ness. When not at home they maintain a rather full, hectic schedule. Always has schedule full of things to do.
Not that sure about the "don't go out much" part but yes, we Librans do appear to be very busy (and that we're never at home) and we tend to be so when we're at work or school, but we love being at home too. I love relaxing at home (in my room especially), and quarantine has shown me that it takes quite a bit for me to get bored staying at home. I may miss my friends and miss having social interaction, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm bored staying at home. And the internet fulfils a lot of my entertainment needs. Though I'm sure my leisure-loving angular Jupiter has some influence on this too.
They aren't in the "here and now." Libra is phased into the FUTURE. (They phase into an Alpha-state with very little effort - feel more comfortable there.)
The "alpha-state" is mentioned in the updated interpretations, but not the part about being phased into the future. Indeed I very much am so, especially when I'm alone in my room. A lot of times I would just think of myself being in the future (albeit the near-future, like the next 5-10 or 15 years) playing out situations in my head of where would I be then and what would I be doing. For example, I may imagine myself being a cheerful, social youth in a big gay-friendly city somewhere (gosh, that sounds depressing once I typed it out lol) or handling workplace situations in a job I think I would be in. My angular Jupiter-Neptune square surely must have a strong influence on this as well.

Though I am more of a "here-and-now" person when I'm working on something (like a task or an assignment) or when I am assessing a situation, when I am disillusioned with something and coping with it or getting through it, and when I am introspecting, which could reflect the Saturn dignity in my Libra-Capricorn luminaries.

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:55 pm

TheScales_BothWays wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:36 pm
I notice that a few minor traits mentioned in the older interpretations didn't make it to the updated one. In particular, these traits, which I think are still accurate (at least for me):
Thanks for this feedback! - BTW, everything you asked about is actually in the new version, but a little different. (Every single line for each sign was taken apart, dismantled, looked at anew, and, if it survived, put back in play with a fresh way of saying it.)
Social adjustment problems. Key difficulties to overcome before they are comfortable relating socially.
It did take me a while to get more open and social with people. My Venus-themed solar return back in 2015 was certainly a strong catalyst for that.
I went back and forth on this during the rewrite. I think this is an example of something that's true with most signs: None of us starts out in life skilled at things, and when you're not good at your core sign themes, you feel it more. Virgos can't stand feeling stupid or not knowing things, because knowing things (being repositories and conduits of information) is the basis of who we are. Aries will feel it deeply when they don't feel powerful, in control, with their egos admired because those things are basic to who they are. And so forth.

So, all of us start out socially awkward and unsure; but to some, it's not a big deal. To Libra, though, it's a knife in the gut. You feel it strongly. - And I can't say, from examples available to me, that Libras are any more socially awkward (as a group) than any other sign type (as a group) - and far less so than some because, y'know, you have better instincts about it. Also, most of my examples of Libra Sun fitting this were young - this was only really true when they were young. I wrote that observation originally when I was in my early 20s and most of the people I knew well at the time, and had observed over time, I had known before they hit 20.

In any case, I did put the above in the current list, as the following: "Initially self-conscious about their relatability and sexuality. (Afraid they "won't know what to do," vulnerable to rejection: the relationship theme is so vital to their souls.)"

I also moved "Relationship Centered" to the top spot to emphasize it as a neutral characteristic - which shows a "sensitivity" when it isn't satisfied. (Same as, say, Aries' ego or Capricorn's autonomy or Cancer's dreaming).
Non-profound relationships (which, however, are profound to them!).
I agree with this. After all, I've had huge crushes on two guys solely/primarily because of their looks. 🙃 It could be my age though, and my double-rim luminaries.
It's there as an affirmative. Instead of saying "no profound relationships," it says, "Chooses security over depth in relationships."

You're right youth and Rim lean that way. Part of the thinking during rewrite: If you tell someone, "You don't have profound relationships but you think you do," what does that really mean to them? What are they going to say to that? The best they can come back with is half-agreement, "Yes, I do think I have deep relationships," and then feel a little insulted about the other half.
- Don't go out much... would rather stick to "home territory." Fond of their homes... a comfortable, pleasant place to retreat. It just seems that they are never at home.
- Busy-ness. When not at home they maintain a rather full, hectic schedule. Always has schedule full of things to do.
Not that sure about the "don't go out much" part but yes, we Librans do appear to be very busy (and that we're never at home) and we tend to be so when we're at work or school, but we love being at home too. I love relaxing at home (in my room especially), and quarantine has shown me that it takes quite a bit for me to get bored staying at home. I may miss my friends and miss having social interaction, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm bored staying at home. And the internet fulfils a lot of my entertainment needs. Though I'm sure my leisure-loving angular Jupiter has some influence on this too.
The rewrite says, "Enjoys comfortable, peaceful surroundings (a "nice" lifestyle)." That's all I could confirm (on the 70-80% rule I use: nothing gets listed unless 70-80% of people in my sample have the trait). I thought the original sounded too much like what I nice, comfy, relaxed, peaceful that I can see a lot of Libras arranging for in their homes.
They aren't in the "here and now." Libra is phased into the FUTURE. (They phase into an Alpha-state with very little effort - feel more comfortable there.)
The "alpha-state" is mentioned in the updated interpretations, but not the part about being phased into the future. Indeed I very much am so, especially when I'm alone in my room. A lot of times I would just think of myself being in the future (albeit the near-future, like the next 5-10 or 15 years) playing out situations in my head of where would I be then and what would I be doing. For example, I may imagine myself being a cheerful, social youth in a big gay-friendly city somewhere (gosh, that sounds depressing once I typed it out lol) or handling workplace situations in a job I think I would be in. My angular Jupiter-Neptune square surely must have a strong influence on this as well.

Though I am more of a "here-and-now" person when I'm working on something (like a task or an assignment) or when I am assessing a situation, when I am disillusioned with something, and when I am introspecting, which could reflect the Saturn dignity in my Libra-Capricorn luminaries.
The last thing you mentioned was part of the back-and-forth I went through: As a Saturn constellation, there's something very practical about Libra. (There's another complicated reason I think all the "Air" signs rebound that way.)

The future-leaning is there, though - in a more narrowly-defined way: "Optimistic futurist. Blithely confident of a better world ("new dawn") ahead. Personal and social idealism ("It's going to get better")." Isn't that basically what you said immediately above? I think it's more specific (and accurate).
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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:54 pm

Thank you so much for the reply, Jim. I find it so insightful. :D
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:55 pm
Thanks for this feedback! - BTW, everything you asked about is actually in the new version, but a little different. (Every single line for each sign was taken apart, dismantled, looked at anew, and, if it survived, put back in play with a fresh way of saying it.)
Yes, I can see it now, thanks to your explanation. ✨
I went back and forth on this during the rewrite. I think this is an example of something that's true with most signs: None of us starts out in life skilled at things, and when you're not good at your core sign themes, you feel it more. Virgos can't stand feeling stupid or not knowing things, because knowing things (being repositories and conduits of information) is the basis of who we are. Aries will feel it deeply when they don't feel powerful, in control, with their egos admired because those things are basic to who they are. And so forth.

So, all of us start out socially awkward and unsure; but to some, it's not a big deal. To Libra, though, it's a knife in the gut. You feel it strongly.
This is so insightful, Jim and it explains a lot! Yes I have felt bad for not being social in social settings, like I could be missing out on having a good time and making new connections or developing existing ones.
Also, most of my examples of Libra Sun fitting this were young - this was only really true when they were young.
Yes I agree that this more true for younger Libras.
In any case, I did put the above in the current list, as the following: "Initially self-conscious about their relatability and sexuality. (Afraid they "won't know what to do," vulnerable to rejection: the relationship theme is so vital to their souls.)"
Aha, right. And this is a better way to put it.
Part of the thinking during rewrite: If you tell someone, "You don't have profound relationships but you think you do," what does that really mean to them? What are they going to say to that? The best they can come back with is half-agreement, "Yes, I do think I have deep relationships," and then feel a little insulted about the other half.
True, and as a Libra I get you, haha.
The rewrite says, "Enjoys comfortable, peaceful surroundings (a "nice" lifestyle)." That's all I could confirm (on the 70-80% rule I use: nothing gets listed unless 70-80% of people in my sample have the trait).
Got it, and I understand the 70% rule.
The future-leaning is there, though - in a more narrowly-defined way: "Optimistic futurist. Blithely confident of a better world ("new dawn") ahead. Personal and social idealism ("It's going to get better")." Isn't that basically what you said immediately above? I think it's more specific (and accurate).
Yes it is basically the same. I now see that what I said could be a more "personal" expression of the "optimistic futurist" and idealism theme.

Once again, I thank you so much, Jim for your awesome reply. I have a clearer understanding of Libra's themes now.

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Venus_Daily » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:55 pm

For the less healthy examples, this pattern of social exclusion of what they instinctively feel is true about themselves - a deep self-loathing develops. (I think the word loathing is not too strong, and speaks to the depths of their darkness). Everything we see in these shadow examples, I think, is rooted in the magnitude of their self-loathing.
Libra males have been in the spotlight more often due to the social upheaval. I'm seeing a lot of straight men with Libra suns or Libra Stelleniums not even involving the sun who can't accept themselves become very maladjusted and "transition" to live as women, yet remain maladjusted. I don't often see this with Tauras suns, think Donald Trump and a guy that I dated. Maybe it's the Saturn aspect in Libra.

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:04 pm

Perhaps... I wonder if it's the Rim side, though. Back when gender-transition was quite rare, all the people I actually knew had Rim luminaries. If this holds up, I'd attribute it to their "living on the outside," more responsive to the surface of thing than their depths. - Taurus, being Hub, lives from its depths, not its surface.

A lot of people in feel the strong presence of a different or additional gender in themselves but don't feel the need to make their bodies match it. I suspect needing that is the distinguishing trait.
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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by By Jove » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:16 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:04 pm
Perhaps... I wonder if it's the Rim side, though. Back when gender-transition was quite rare, all the people I actually knew had Rim luminaries. If this holds up, I'd attribute it to their "living on the outside," more responsive to the surface of thing than their depths. - Taurus, being Hub, lives from its depths, not its surface.

A lot of people in feel the strong presence of a different or additional gender in themselves but don't feel the need to make their bodies match it. I suspect needing that is the distinguishing trait.
What if someone has a Rim Sun and Hub Moon, or a Hub Sun and Rim Moon? How does the surfaces-depths dynamic play out?

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Re: Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:23 am

It's a mix. - I find it most convenient btw, when the luminaries are in different Quadruplicities, to focus on what's missing: Both of your examples I would think of first as no Spoke.
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