Angular Pluto project

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Jim Eshelman
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Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Welcome to the Angular Pluto discussion project, which will run June 22 - July 5, 2021 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Pluto Angular people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

CRITERA: Planets within 7° of major angles (Asc-Dsc, MC-IC) and 2° of minor angles (Zenith-Nadir, EP-WP). For Pluto it is especially important to assess proximity to horizon and meridian in prime vertical longitude, squares to MC and Asc in longitude, and RA contact to EP and WP in right ascension - because for Pluto it can make quite a difference.

Here is the primary Angular Pluto interpretive resource on the forum:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=38#p191

We may also want to compare to Sun in Aries for ideas to check against our Angular Pluto examples:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p167

My current concise summary of Angular Pluto reads:
Social outliers needing to be authentically themselves, without labels or arbitrary standards or expectations. Eccentric, antisocial, outrageous; will not melt into the conventional collective. Singularly unique in their context, on their own path (vulnerable to persecution). Gentle, inoffensive, innocent, shy. Grapples with existential actualities. (If severely afflicted: cruel, unfeeling, inhuman.)
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:18 pm

People who have been active on this forum with Pluto angular include:
  • sotonye
  • Veronica
Furthermore, none of the Sidereal pioneers or other significant astrologers in my small collection has a foreground or angular Pluto.

U.S. Presidents include George Washington, John Quincy Adams, Franklin Pierce, U.S. Grant, James A. Garfield, and George W. Bush. I see no obvious commonality in these six men. - The Bradley study of murderers showed Pluto foreground frequently, and I can offer William Heirens, Myra Hindley, Susan Atkins, Mark David Chapman, Lyle Menendez, James Holmes, and O.J. Simpson (add Josef Mengele).

Some famous people with Pluto angular:
  • Pres. George Washington, Pres. John Quincy Adams, Pres. Franklin Pierce, Pres. U.S. Grant, Pres. James A. Garfield, Pres. George W. Bush, King Louis XIV, King George III, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth II
  • VP Al Gore, Sec. Pete Buttigieg, Charles Prince of Wales, Prince William, Camilla Parker-Bowles
  • William Heirens, Myra Hindley, Susan Atkins, Charles Whitman, Mark David Chapman, Lyle Menendez, James Holmes, O.J. Simpson (add Josef Mengele)
  • Carl Jung, JonBenet Ramsey, L. Ron Hubbard, Lee Iacocca, Leona Helmsley, Malcom X, Manly Palmer Hall, Mata Hari, Patty Hearst, Prince, Richard Branson, Robin Williams
Besides the two forum members listed above, I have a small list of 17 other people I knew/know sufficiently well with Pluto angular by the above criteria. I'll recheck everything against these examples (which include my first wife and my niece). Interestingly, four of our closest associates in the wine sales industry are on the list: I need to examine whether independent self-employment and a general entrepreneurial approach is part of the profile (as a variant of "going it alone").
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Parto

Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Parto » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:25 pm

I've been reflecting on the (Eshelman or Fagan?) quote: "Pluto is the essence of innocence."

For the examples I have, even if the rest of the chart is quite heavy (e.g., great capacity for aggression), the strong angular Pluto grants these people a quality unlike any other that I can distinguish astrologically, and innocence might just be the right word for it. Even the dark, ugly side of them is different. It's hard coming up with descriptors. Angelic? Not quite human. Or perhaps the most human. Maybe fairies.

The part about their being "cruel, unfeeling, inhuman" if Pluto is severely afflicted is interesting: just the fact of Pluto being afflicted clearly doesn't produce that.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:07 am

In trying to contribute something I reflected that my Angular Pluto was squared by transiting Pluto, 3 times (I'm pretty sure I got that right) in 2008.

My Pluto is at 4 degrees Virgo, almost 5, and my Asc is 5 Gem. It is also configured (square) with my strongest MidPoint of Venus/Mars.

It would seem that my SSR and Lunars for that year would be very telling of what was going on then.

I do believe that was the year I finally had both children in school, that I really tried to live lighter and softer on earth (gardening, looking into alternative energy, chickens/ducks, Mother Jones, community sharing/responses/ involvement.

It was also the year that I had police at my door about to arrest me for fraud and falsify legal documents because apparently my dad had been using my name and signature on legal forms for years with out my knowledge. With the threat of going to Jail, my confrontation with dad about this turned into a gross Piscean moon display on his behalf (in front of my kids) telling me to beat and whip him. I kicked him out of my home and didn't speak to him for almost 2 years.

That also was the time that I got my son involved in Cub Scouts and became first a Den Mother and Then the Cub Master. Best times in my life!

This was also when my husband, who had quit drinking in 2006, started to really show signs of opiate abuse and basically stopped sleeping in bed with me.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:26 pm

Jim said
": I need to examine whether independent self-employment and a general entrepreneurial approach is part of the profile (as a variant of "going it alone").

I fondly remember going into an abandoned home as a child with my older brother and coming home with an antique shoe shine box filled with polish and brushes and I made quite a lot of money cleaning boots and shoes and coats and purses.

I also as a child would bait blood suckers in the creek and catch minnows and worms to sell to the fishermen.
That job really sucked.

I also would collect cans and bottles for the refund.

As a preteen I made jewelry to sell to my classmates, and I would sell my dads beer and my moms smokes.

Once I was able to babysit I made an insane amount of money.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:23 am

Veronica wrote:
Oh yes, many times. I love taking care of babies and kids though.
Always endeavor to do what you love to do…..I think you have a great mind the kids can enjoy and relate to. When the kids like you...you will always have great references from their parents. :)

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:53 am

Parto wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:25 pm
I've been reflecting on the (Eshelman or Fagan?) quote: "Pluto is the essence of innocence."

For the examples I have, even if the rest of the chart is quite heavy (e.g., great capacity for aggression), the strong angular Pluto grants these people a quality unlike any other that I can distinguish astrologically, and innocence might just be the right word for it. Even the dark, ugly side of them is different. It's hard coming up with descriptors. Angelic? Not quite human. Or perhaps the most human. Maybe fairies.

The part about their being "cruel, unfeeling, inhuman" if Pluto is severely afflicted is interesting: just the fact of Pluto being afflicted clearly doesn't produce that.
I had wanted to respond to this, but I gave myself some time to gather myself......

My initial response, was a very deep pain of not being understood, again.
My next response was a very ugly F♡(£ YOU....
I am not a changeling. I am not a fairy. I am not a demon or alien or inhuman or more human!!!
I bleed, I cry, I dream and hope and worry and work and try.....
And I am sick and tired of being called names, and treated like I'm different.
The poster may have thought with his " innocent" remarks that the underlaying message that there are those among us who are seemingly inherently biologically not the same, and an angular Pluto is the tip off so we know who is who.....
I am not going for any train ride thank you very much.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:14 am

Good-morning, Veronica,

I always feel a little guilty when I want to celebrate the fact that something kinda bad happened - and that astrology showed it spectacularly.

Your Demi-Lunar Return set up last night. It's as clear a chart as could be for (I guess I'd call it) feeling dehumanized, shoved out, excluded - and having it feel really personal.

Venus and Mars oppose Saturn along the meridian square Uranus on EP. Moon rises. Moon is the most angular planet, 1°02' above Asc. Venus is second most angular. Of the foreground aspects, Venus opposite Saturn (also 1°02') is the closest - oh, except for that beautiful, gracious square of Jupiter to your rising Moon (0°59'), plus natal Jupiter-Neptune closely setting.
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:12 am

You called me by my name and said good morning.

That's what people do to other people.

Thank you for always being kind and understanding.

I am a human being and thank you always treating me as one, no matter how different I seem.

Parto

Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Parto » Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:14 am

Veronica, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I don't want you (or anyone) to feel misunderstood or excluded. Your words have caused me to reflect on mine.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:06 am

Parto wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:14 am
Veronica, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I don't want you (or anyone) to feel misunderstood or excluded. Your words have caused me to reflect on mine.
Parto
Thank you.

To clarify though.....
Life itself is depth of feeling.
Everything feels, senses, and in it's own way interprets the information/data/experience.
Those deep deep feelings of not being understood/ of being misperceived/ and rejected/branded that arose in me when I read "your" string of words that on the surface imply Good/nice/ideal qualities, were already made inside me. You didn't make me feel anything that was not already in me.

I tried to ignore what you had said,
I guess I gaslight myself.....
But it has been such a chronic theme in my life,.....people thinking it is okay to name call, to use language that separates us. It's the status quo, and I know I do it myself even though I try to mind my thoughts and heart.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:44 am

Jim,

In looking at your consise delineation, I think that
" Grapples with spiritual actualities" should be the first sentence because everything else you observed comes from that core.

Actualities possibly being accentuated, to differ from the potentialities from other ambiguities like Neptunian influences.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:23 pm

Veronica wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:44 am
In looking at your consise delineation, I think that " Grapples with spiritual actualities" should be the first sentence because everything else you observed comes from that core.
Thanks.

I'm not sure most Pluto people would agree (i.e. recognize themselves) with that, though. Even if I shifted it a little to "existential" instead of "spiritual," there would be objection to the labelling. (As I look over he list, I see many who identify with the word struggle and who really do wrestle with existential matters; but most would feel uncomfortable with that labelling.

Unlike most people in my Pluto list, you have several connection-merger planets strong, especially your Moon and Neptune. For most Pluto angular people I know, the sense of separation that is so painful to you is one of the few things that isn't painful for them, What seems most true to them is that they are different from everyone else (or, perhaps, that everyone is so different from everyone else). Several have told me that they're not sure they're part of the human species. They're all reasonable people who factually know that they were born on Earth but don't have a hard time holding the fantasy that their real parents dropped them off here on the way past Earth. The sense of being alien and separate is so acute. If not literally feeling alien, several definitely had to leave where they grew up and have clean breaks with family out of a sense that they have nothing in common with "their people."

You, on the other hand, are not so disposed to separate when you have a chance to connect. I think that's Moon-Neptune-Jupiter all together and angular.

(This "I'm not a part of the people I came from" isn't present in the elite who have had literal and figurative dynastic roles, such as Queen Elizabeth II, Prince Charles (and other monarchs), John and John Q. Adams, George W. Bush. But even in this group you have the "break-out" figures like Patty Hearst. This is a side of Pluto I've never considered: I'm going to think through which side of Pluto is being brought out in them.)
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:50 am

Jim,

It is cool how I sat with those words, faerie, in human ect for quite some time (I read it when it was first posted) before I felt the need and ability to speak up, and what felt like a spontaneous taking advantage of a moment in time, clearly showed up in my chart.

I am curious, and dont have any clue how to find out on my own, what percentage of the human population has Pluto Angular? It's such a slow planet, would more people tend to be born with it Angular in different eras ie when it was in virgo or Sag? So that in my age group there maybe an upsurge(?) In the potentially/ chance of more people having this aspect? Or would more people like Area in different global locations have it more?

It struck me as odd that there is little showing for this trait in astrologers. Gave me pause to think, and to reflect about how I really struggle to follow what you all are talking about sometimes, and how it is my personal Angular Pluto expression (grappling with those merger needs I have in spades as well) that drove my life long seeking to know myself and what that means all the way down to the itty bittist things in me.

Most Angular Pluto people would not be posting on a forum for anyone anywhere anytime to read.

But, I believe you are right to express our grappling nature at the end. We are such a fragile and delicate kind and the world already excludes and defines and alienates us, that I truly feel that seeing those naked striped down exposed of a personal need that is protected tighter then fort knox......would not be kind or helpful to any and could further alienate and push away a sincere seeker of truth.

So yeah, leave it as it is. I see nothing to improve.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:54 pm

Veronica wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:50 am
I am curious, and dont have any clue how to find out on my own, what percentage of the human population has Pluto Angular?
If we take all angles equally, its's the same for al l planets. For close (Class 1 angularity, within 3°), it's about 7-8%. For moderate (Class 2 angularity, within 7°) it's a little more than 16%.
It's such a slow planet, would more people tend to be born with it Angular in different eras ie when it was in virgo or Sag?
No. This kind of variation would be true if we considered a single angle; but during eras when Pluto takes longer to cross Descendant, it also takes less time to cross Ascendant (for example), so these average out.
Most Angular Pluto people would not be posting on a forum for anyone anywhere anytime to read.
I think you're right.
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Gemini One » Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:52 am

My beliefs are that angular Plutos means

-High standards
-High powerful money
-High sex drive
-High competence

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:41 am

Welcome to Solunars, Gemini One, and thanks for joining in.

What you wrote doesn't match what I see in people I know with Pluto closely conjunct an angle. Of course, one main purpose of this thread is to draw out things other people see that I've missed.
Gemini One wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:52 am
My beliefs are that angular Pluto means

-High standards
-High powerful money
-High sex drive
-High competence
What I find interesting is that these traits are mostly a great (but limited) fit for people with Sun in Sidereal Libra. I'm wondering whether you came to these conclusions from observing people with Pluto closely conjunct an angle? Or did you, perhaps, analogize Pluto from Tropical Scorpio (which is really Sidereal Libra mislabeled)? - That would be a common approach among Tropical astrologers.
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:56 am

My Dad has an angular Pluto. (1° 45' from Dsc in ecliptic longitude)

[Mar 12, 1935, 3:26:48 am CST, Marion, IL] (rectified 12 seconds from an AA-rated (B.C.) time)

* High standards - the opposite is in evidence, though he does hold others (DSC) to extremely high standards.

* High powerful money - he was Assistant Chief of Police in our hometown and otherwise was a postal worker. He made okay money, but nothing extraordinary. (which Pluto to me would imply, ie. LEVEL) However, in defense of the argument, I must say he was always after that "big win" and usually pursued it at a dog or horse race track. (He has won tens of thousands of dollars in single bets, but all in all, it's relatively even; wins vs losses. To his credit, he always did stick to his "gambling rule" to only ever use disposable income in betting.)

* High sex drive - the angular Pluto squares a Mars-Uranus opposition in his chart, so not sure exactly *where* we would say it comes from, but he definitely exhibited an extremely high sex drive. (often hooking up two or three times a night)

* High competence - relatively competent in narrow areas, but also profoundly incompetent in many/most things. (changing a simple screw-in light bulb for his car's brake lights turned into an angry, bloody affair)

For an angular Pluto, I'd expect dealing with issues relating to power/control over others, dealing with some level of "gangstery shit" in some form or another (ie. thuggery/underworld), using overwhelming force to resolve issues, mining people for resources, as well as moody, repressed emotions that come out as volcanic, out-of-control outbursts. (I specifically remember the transmission in the car (not even HIS car) failing and him grabbing the shifter and jerking it back and forth violently, as if he was trying to break it off... As he would say, "it takes little provocation to give me a good case of the red-a$$." That pretty much sums it up, though I see that as more related to the Mars-Uranus opposition than to Pluto's angularity. ie. in this case, Pluto likely increases the LEVEL of the Mars-Uranus opposition to make it more overwhelming and less constrained by reason

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:05 am

Odd' thanks for sharing this interesting and personal example.

Since Pluto's latitude is small, it is indeed angular, about 2 degrees above Descendant in PV longitude or altitude; and so much that you describe fits Pluto's partile square with Mars and trine with Jupiter.

He must have been quite a character! - With Aquarius-Gemini luminaries and a closely angular Pluto, we'd expect him not to care much for social conventions and other people's rules and to strike his own path (breaking an occasional thing along the way and taking a quiet comfort in how he was shaking up others' neat worlds). With Aquarius-Gemini luminaries and a close Moon-Mercury-Mars Grand Trine (Mercury-Mars 0°00' with the planets in each others' signs), I'd expect an exceptionally interesting, curious, inquiring mind, rarely caught off guard (except for things like other people's feelings). Mercury exactly square Jupiter is consistent with always being on the lookout for the next lucky break etc.

Or something like that.

Most of what you attribute to Pluto is stuff I see in his ferociously powerful partile (and closely angular) Mars-Pluto square. All of the power and control and "gangstery shit" of Pluto seems to me to be hold-overs from the 1930s and '40s when astrologers were first trying to sort it out and World War II raging. But for all of his community connections, I bet he was mostly at odds with community standards and others trying to provide their moral standards for his life.

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
Mo 01Ge19'10" 02N56 +12°24'  84°36' 26N18 321°04' -14°28' 157°41'  15%  
Su 27Aq02'42" 00N00 + 1°00' 351°38' 03S37  66°03' -32°55'  35°18'  32%  
Me 29Cp43'02" 00S18 + 0°50' 325°59' 13S58  92°48' -19°34'  19°35'  59%  
Ve 23Pi52'41" 00S35 + 1°14'  16°33' 06N25  33°39' -39°57'  56°30'   1%  
Ma 29Vi43'06" 02N58 - 0°10' 202°54' 06S23 205°58' +42°29' 244°27'  95% F
Ju 29Li26'58" 01N12 - 0°00' 231°13' 17S26 169°13' +34°08' 285°26'  66%  
Sa 09Aq16'06" 01S24 + 0°07' 335°34' 11S41  84°51' -25°48'  25°53'  48%  
Ur 05Ar21'33" 00S30 + 0°03'  27°20' 10N43  18°42' -39°40'  68°52'  20%  
Ne 19Le09'37" 00N59 - 0°02' 164°43' 07N35 254°54' +30°24' 211°17'  39%  
Pl 00Cn08'06" 01N47 - 0°01' 116°12' 23N05 297°33' + 2°29' 182°48'  98% F
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects         Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
Mo tr Me 01°36' 95%      Mo sq Su 04°16' 65%       Mo sx Ve 07°26'  1%  
Mo tr Ma 01°36' 95%      Su op Ne 04°02' 77% M     Ve sq Pl 06°15' 28%
Mo sq Ur 01°11' 97% M    Su tr Pl 03°05' 82%       
Su tr Ju 02°24' 89%      Me sx Ve 05°50' 37%         
Me tr Ma 00°00'100%      Me co Sa 06°18' 46% M                          
Me sq Ju 00°16'100%      Me sx Ur 05°39' 41%                            
Ve oc Sa 00°23' 97%      Ve op Ma 05°50' 64%                            
Ma sq Pl 00°25'100%      Ma op Ur 04°26' 73% M                          
Ju tr Pl 00°41' 99%      Sa sx Ur 03°55' 71%                                                                           Sa op Ne 05°23' 60% M                          
                         Ur oc Ne 01°12' 75%                            
                         Ur sq Pl 05°13' 49% 
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:29 am

My son, having Aquarius-Gemini luminaries and a closely angular Pluto fits this pattern quite well. (dob Feb 15 1992 1:18AM Amsterdam, Netherlands 52N21' 4E51' residence is The Hague Neth.)
He declines every feedback I give him on relocating his SSR for example. Sees this as manipulation or pushing him to do things he doesn't want to do.
Even after explaining him in a friendly way suggesting he may want to relocate his SSR I get the full: no. Keep your astrology for yourself only, he says.
His new SSR started yesterday and it is quite harsh and he just started his new job. I keep my fingers crossed.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:52 pm

Re: "Since Pluto's latitude is small, it is indeed angular, about 2 degrees above Descendant in PV longitude or altitude"

I had noted that as well. Right on the Descendant, it seems all that "Pluto energy" is channeled towards the public and no doubt, overdone with significant others. There's a lot more to this story.

Re: "and so much that you describe fits Pluto's partile square with Mars"

One of my catchphrases for Mars-Pluto aspects is "brutality," and in some form or another, it is on target. I think as he was a policeman, it was a circumstance where he could deal with the "dregs" and likely get some of his brooding anger out. Good for him, perhaps, but not good for them. It wasn't that he was spoiling for trouble, it's just that when he felt diminished or challenged in some way, he approached it as life-or-death, even though it likely could be deescalated. He wasn't crazy like some of his fellow policemen. One guy carried the evidential skin bullet-hole that was removed from someone he had shot dead as if it were a trophy of some sort. Another one beat a homeless Indian (vagrant) until he needed hospitalization. The doctors noted there were no large portions of bone in his skull. (blackjack) Though Dad thought it was wrong, wrong, wrong; he seemed to enjoy telling the story a bit too much!

Re: "He must have been quite a character!"

Yes, enough so that he got known for several things. It's a pity that more of those "things" weren't wholesome, life-affirming things.

Re: "With Aquarius-Gemini luminaries and a closely angular Pluto, we'd expect him not to care much for social conventions and other people's rules and to strike his own path (breaking an occasional thing along the way and taking a quiet comfort in how he was shaking up others' neat worlds)."

This is relatively correct. Whether we start with a 26 year old man connecting with my 17 year old (at the time) Mother, or if we accelerate to an Assistant Chief of Police that lost that job, because of taking bets for co-workers. He wasn't actually a bookie, since he did actually buy the tickets, as if the person themselves were at the track, but still, it's illegal...and really, does it even sound like something from someone who should be setting at least a legal example?

Re: " With Aquarius-Gemini luminaries and a close Moon-Mercury-Mars Grand Trine (Mercury-Mars 0°00' with the planets in each others' signs), I'd expect an exceptionally interesting, curious, inquiring mind"

That's one of his main drawing-points, that he has quite a way of telling a story and through his personality, it becomes more humorous. He was a crossword puzzler for most of his life and always kept notebooks of the inning-by-inning results (as a coach would keep) from baseball games, etc. Additionally, with his money, he was like a master accountant. He loaned me money on a few occasions and was always mindful of the paying back. I didn't have a problem paying him back, but he commented that he would always help, until we didn't pay him back, and then the bank is closed. I can understand it, and didn't have a problem, but his stating of it sounded entirely too Ebenezer Scrooge-ish.

Re: "Most of what you attribute to Pluto is stuff I see in his ferociously powerful partile (and closely angular) Mars-Pluto square. All of the power and control and "gangstery shit" of Pluto seems to me to be hold-overs from the 1930s and '40s when astrologers were first trying to sort it out and World War II raging."

That can be, but I still feel that since Pluto is often a "who has power here, in this circumstance?" planet, that all of the underworld/thuggery type stuff *is* inherently Pluto's domain. I guess what I'm trying to say is...there is often a "might makes right" element to Pluto that is right at home in underworld activity...or even suspicious police activity, due to the unbalanced power dynamic and tendency to extreme levels of violence in a show-of-force.

Re: "But for all of his community connections, I bet he was mostly at odds with community standards and others trying to provide their moral standards for his life."

Being 26 and getting a 17 year old pregnant can definitely put you at odds to community standards!

By the way, my Dad found the love of his life relatively young, but cheated on her and then spent the rest of his life half-hating women. (expressed in some disguised form or another)

Thanks for your comments, Jim. (by the way, we're talking about a "Jim") ;)

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Zig » Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:46 pm

I have Pluto on the ascendant. Worked as a Prison Officer for 23 years before retiring, spent 12 years in a high security prison looking after some of the most dangerous psychopaths in the UK Prison system. Pluto is in a wide square to Sun also and trine my Mid heaven. Pluto transits always seemed the most challenging in my life!

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:55 pm

Zig wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:46 pm
I have Pluto on the ascendant. Worked as a Prison Officer for 23 years before retiring, spent 12 years in a high security prison looking after some of the most dangerous psychopaths in the UK Prison system. Pluto is in a wide square to Sun also and trine my Mid heaven. Pluto transits always seemed the most challenging in my life!
Thanks, Zig. - I don't think you ever posted your birth data here, did you?

I wouldn't count a trine to MC - angles don't make aspects - but the aspect to Sun might be interesting and I'd like to see the rest of the pattern behind that career.
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:12 pm

A few angular Pluto distinctions from other planets that sound almost the same in some respects, or that have acute reciprocal patterns:
  • Pluto and Saturn are both individualistic. The difference is that Saturn's individuality builds walls, survives by itself, finds security in barriers and definitions. Pluto doesn't need these, only wants them in the most extreme conditions (or when Saturn is also operative): Pluto's ideal involves being completely unmolested for their individuality within community.
  • Pluto fundamentally requires individuality but not in the sense of the individual VERSUS community. Pluto is not averse to community and, in fact, has a natural inclination to serve others in need that is almost as strong as its need for individuality.
  • In much of this, Pluto seems the antithesis of Moon, in that Moon is primarily adaptive within psychological and social habitats, conforming itself to expectations, and Pluto wants nothing to do with that. However - a VERY important distinction - Pluto is not solitary from community but, rather, is the solitary within community. (Only extreme examples or the seriously threatened are maladaptive antisocial.)
  • In the course of evolution, Moon signifies adaptation with consequent natural selection. Pluto, however, is mutation, the single exception suddenly existing in the gene pool.
  • Sun and Pluto both seem highly individualistic. However, Sun is the need to be distinguished as a particular somebody. Pluto, in contrast, is the need to be whatever the {bonk} it actually is.
  • In contrast to Uranus, Pluto isn't make a stand for being different. Pluto (which needs to live life by its own rules) ends up NOT following other people's rules or social conventions but is rarely noisy or drawing attention on this (whereas drawing attention is often much of the point for Uranus: everything is a "birth announcement"). Most Pluto people most of the time "slip through the cracks" on their disobedience, quietly and almost invisibly. In fact, invisibility (in the sense of being nonchalant) probably needs to be emphasized more with Pluto than we've previously done.
I'm currently sorting through the seeming paradox that Pluto is individual rather than communal, yet service to others in need is basic to its nature. My current thoughts is that this is centered in the observation that Pluto is solitary within the herd, not a solitary or hermit apart from the herd.

Notice that Moon represents the need and capacity to adapt to one's habitat, including psychological and social habitats. Pluto seems (on first impression) the exact opposite of this. But both signify fundamental needs and one fundamental need cannot innately conflict with or contradict another: They need to collaborate. Therefore, Pluto isn't the antithesis of adaptation (for example) so much as a separate function that exists alongside the fundamental need to adapt, perhaps the safeguard (for both the individual and the herd) that requires that a being also will attend to its own genetic distinctions to further emergent, specialized adaptations within the herd.
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:29 am

I have completed the foreground Pluto rewrite. This is a significant threshold; It not only finishes the top-to-bottom rewrite of all foreground planets, it completes many years of re-examining and rewriting sign positions, angular planets, and aspects. Today marks the end of a many-years project and officially starts the next big project wave.

It seems that every scrap and detail of foreground Pluto was rewritten, though someone reading it without a side-by-side comparison might not catch it. There is a different general thrust in it now. Subtleties have been shaved and adjusted (e.g., I stopped calling Pluto "timid," and even "shy" doesn't exactly fit, even though very similar words do fit). All the extremism we've historically described in Pluto is there, but it's usually so quiet: invisible (a mythologically true theme of Pluto) is an important word I'll be using more since so most things that most Pluto people do most of the time is quiet, invisible, non-confrontational. The "live and let live" spirit is so pronounced that (for example) there is rarely a choice to disrupt someone else without an invitation.

The full treatment is here: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... p=191#p191

The three summary words picked to lead one into Pluto's salient traits are:
Outlier, Uncontrolled, Innocence
(I cheated and allowed a single adjective; all other 29 planet keywords were nouns.)

Here is the new summary:
Need to live by their own rules (not others' rules or conventions). Social outsider (enjoys solitude), resists reflexively conforming to herd expectations (unique, eccentric, odd). Respectful of people (not systems). Kind, unthreatening, guileless (only rarely antisocial); innocent without naivete. Deeply affected by cruelty or injustice. Spiritually inquiring, questioning. Unrushed in emotional commitment. (If severely afflicted: cruel, unfeeling, inhuman.)
Thanks to everyone who participated in ANY of the ten foreground planet projects. You have helped me (psychologically motivating me and providing concrete input) in this (I think) important undertaking, which is now finished.

(I find myself wishing JSAD were here to see this day. She was always supportive of this and the related projects.)
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Patrick Machado » Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:18 pm

Congratulations!

The new treatment is great—as are those of the previous nine planets; the three outermost planets, in particular, seem to me to be "next-level fleshed out."

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:41 pm

Patrick Machado wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:18 pm
Congratulations!

The new treatment is great—as are those of the previous nine planets; the three outermost planets, in particular, seem to me to be "next-level fleshed out."
Thanks. Yes, as I started Uranus I had the sense that there were gaps over the years and I couldn't really build on what I had before - I'd have to somewhat start from scratch and the underlying themes would come together differently.
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:41 am

Beautiful.
Simply beautiful how you captured this essence.

I especially am thankful for this coming to light.....

"invisible (a mythologically true theme of Pluto) is an important word I'll be using more since so most things that most Pluto people do most of the time is quiet, invisible, non-confrontational. The "live and let live" spirit is so pronounced that (for example) there is rarely a choice to disrupt someone else without an invitation."

hit the nail right on the head with the last sentence especially. Even when I feel I am being invited to disrupt/interact I am hesitant to do so with most people, mostly because I get the feeling that the invitation stems from boredom and/or a need for excitement and escape.

Thank you for helping me understand myself and others. It is humbling to know that I am not really alone even though I feel invisible.

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