Mercury-Jupiter vs. Mercury-Saturn

Q&A and discussion on Aspects.
Post Reply
User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 16566
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Mercury-Jupiter vs. Mercury-Saturn

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:11 am

Working this morning on Mercury aspects for HOSNI I realized that there is a very simple "anchoring" perspective that gives easy contrast between these two aspects. (LOL, as you'll see in a minute, that was a very Mercury-Saturn way for me to write this,)

Of the many details, comparisons, and contrasts of natal Mercury-Jupiter vs. Mercury-Saturn aspects, this may be the simplest:

Mercury-Jupiter BEGINS with trust, optimism, and confidence about a matter. Though not deluded in a Neptunian sense, Mercury-Jupiter rarely lets contradictory facts disturb their optimistic state of mind (like a gambler "on a roll"). It boils down to, "I'm starting out expecting a positive result: Don't throw off my mental process by getting me to concentrate on facts or evidence that might lead to an opposite conclusion."

Mercury-Saturn BEGINS with doubt, pessimism, and skepticism about a matter. Mercury-Saturn insists on facts before budging from doubt. It boils down to, "I'm starting out expecting nothing is here, and require facts and evidence before thinking otherwise."

The former approach is called "religious thinking" and the latter "scientific thinking," even when the topic has nothing to do with religion or science.

While both types actually know the difference between fact and fiction, from this simple "confidence first; don't let facts or evidence disturb my mindset" vs. "doubt first: must have facts and evidence to determine my final mindset" you can derive most of the rest of what's important about the two aspects.

Thus, Mercury-Jupiter appears confident, comfortable, reassuring. They may seem shallower than they are (perhaps because they circumvent controversy or simply don't live in a space of doubt). Their high likelihood of thriving in business depends more on luck than skill (though they usually have skill) and they're always looking for the next opportunity or lucky break. They start off as upbeat and confident, so appear that way. They don't fit a fixed schedule or routine very well.

In contrast, Mercury-Saturn appears cautious, distrustful, and perhaps uncertain. They always seem serious (comfortable with controversy and disagreement or relying on doubt as their insurance). They aren't necessarily interested in business (and it's not usually an aspect of pronounced prosperity despite Warren Buffet), usually most reliant on skill and precision instead of luck (though they usually make their own good luck). They're always skeptical of an unproven opportunity. While rarely deeply depressive, they have a prudent pessimism that rests on doubting all things initially. They organize their reality very well around schedules, structures, and routine.

Perhaps this will help you incorporate a cell-level understanding of these two aspects and their contrasts - or, I might say, their essential identity except for having the variables flipped in their matching equations. (That was such a Mercury-Saturn way to say that, don't you think?)
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Veronica
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:37 am
Gender:

Re: Mercury-Jupiter vs. Mercury-Saturn

Post by Veronica » Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:21 pm

I do.

As someone with an exact Mercury Saturn square I feel you expressed the differences quite soundly.

I feel for me that my caution keeps me isolated from connecting to others.

User avatar
Danica
Irish
Irish
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:19 pm

Re: Mercury-Jupiter vs. Mercury-Saturn

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:58 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:11 am

Mercury-Jupiter BEGINS with trust, optimism, and confidence about a matter. Though not deluded in a Neptunian sense, Mercury-Jupiter rarely lets contradictory facts disturb their optimistic state of mind (like a gambler "on a roll"). It boils down to, "I'm starting out expecting a positive result: Don't throw off my mental process by getting me to concentrate on facts or evidence that might lead to an opposite conclusion."

Mercury-Saturn BEGINS with doubt, pessimism, and skepticism about a matter. Mercury-Saturn insists on facts before budging from doubt. It boils down to, "I'm starting out expecting nothing is here, and require facts and evidence before thinking otherwise."

The former approach is called "religious thinking" and the latter "scientific thinking"
[...]

Science is based on Observation (of Natural phenomena and their laws/characteristics of behavior). Of the 10 thus-far mostly well-known astrological planets, this is an inherently Uranian phenomenon, not Mercurial.

The intellectual formulations, and representations (of these observed qualities of Nature), and structuring these into systems, then, comes *after* the Observation itself. (If it happens to precede it, than it's not actual Observation, it's biased looking, with expectation in advance to see something or other, in accordance with the pre-formed intellectual formulations/structures.) - These formulations, and the use of symbols to communicate them (and/or record) is Mercurial.

Or, in other words - unless we're speaking of relation of Mercury with Uranus - nothing about Mercury per se is directly related to the basic, essential (fundamental, foundational) aspects of the process of Scientific inquiry/pursuit as such - it beginning with, being intrinsically rooted-in, based-on, Observation, and Mercury being the faculty which, then ( - although this "then" may be instantaneous, from perspective of our regular, every-day framework of perception of time) puts the perceived/observed phenomena into some or other specific forms.


So, it's a - however subtle-seeming! - misnomer to say that the aspects of Mercury themselves can speak about lesser or greater tendency of a person toward Scientific in their approach to experience/life -- or even merely in their way of thinking!

They simply depict how the intellect tends to function (how the intellectual forms/symbols are being mutually connected, compared-to each other, organized etc), by what other planetary ergies are "coloring" this function within psyche; some of them are more aligned with some aspects of the whole structure of what we've come to call Science (the notations via symbols and formulas, the systematic data-collection, the labeling, the sorting-out, etc) - as is the case with Saturn - thus enabling the person with the aspect to be capable to excel (or simply, function very well) in one or another peculiar facet of it (of this structure - which is: the whole body of symbols and their mutual inter-relation, thus far established as representative-of such-&-such peculiar manifestations of all of Nature's phenomena perceived ); yet, this does not depict their inherent "scientific tendency/capacity" as such - isn't saying anything in particular about their Observation tendencies and capacities (unless, as I said, it's an aspect of Mercury with Uranus itself).

P.S. to prevent this from devolving into an "argument" about whether "Being=Thinking":

Some who have never experienced the psychological states of what the Yogis call Pratyahara-Dharana (and so forth; these are gradually moving from one into the other, from the more rudimentary stages toward the ones which are characterized by greater refinement/absence-of-interruption-by-thought-forms/intellect-movements, and are deeper and more stable --- with the highest being generally called Samadhi; see: Raja Yoga) may be prone to equate *being* with *thinking*, simply perceiving all there is of Reality as thought-based (= resting on, being fundamentally rooted-in, the intellectual forms/symbols). --- Their own absence of experience, though, and the limit-framework of their own capacities, isn't something that is fundamentally, or in some way intrinsically, defining the Human Scientific pursuit as such.

One can be connecting, combining and re-combining, structuring and re-structuring, the forms/symbols (notations; "formulas", etc) attached-to observed phenomena all they want; if the Observation itself isn't properly performed, this play with the forms is merely that - nothing more than play with the forms within the realm of human intellect; it itself does not lead one toward neither Seeing (being authentically Present-to and Witnessing) nor toward Understanding of Nature's laws and phenomena - which necessitates Observation, not only as its starting point, but also as a continuous, ongoing-process.
Amate Se Mutuo Cum Corda Ardentia
http://siderallia.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 16566
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Mercury-Jupiter vs. Mercury-Saturn

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:35 am

Danica wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:58 am
Science is based on Observation (of Natural phenomena and their laws/characteristics of behavior). Of the 10 thus-far mostly well-known astrological planets, this is an inherently Uranian phenomenon, not Mercurial.
As mentioned in the original post, "scientific thinking" is the name of this kind of thinking - the traditional psychological term - even when it has nothing to do with science (just as "religious thinking" needn't have anything to do with religion).

That is, I wasn't talking either science or religion, but about two modes of thinking psychologists have historically called scientific thinking and religious thinking.

That said, it's also well documented by the Gauquelin research that the most confirmable astrological pattern for people eminent in the sciences is Saturn on an angle. This makes sense, inasmuch as science is a method - based on rigor, form, discipline, persistence - blending observation, testing, a process of extracting conclusions, etc.

Uranus is certainly fitting for the discovery piece of science, of course. Uranians are less likely to have the discipline to put in the extra 12 years of schooling and commit to a lifetime of structure and repetition which is essential to the method.

I disagree that Uranus is related to observation per se. That's a Mercury function: Observation is data collection. That said, Uranus certainly has a strong support role in the mix.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests