Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

BTW, I finally figured out that there is a really good reason fixed stars contacts would occur only by paran: They are the ONLY factor astrologers use that is outside of our solar system. There is no reason at all to think they have any responsiveness to the ecliptic, which is entirely a measuring base INSIDE our solar system.
They MIGHT also be relevant in galactic longitude but, of the frameworks we already use easily, the mundane frameworks - PV longitude, parans, and perhaps altitude - are the only ones that are relevant.

Jim, when you say “galactic longitude” are you referring to the GC? Jim, we don’t really understand a lot of crystal clear symbolism with fixed starts do we, only maybe a handful, correct?

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, when you say “galactic longitude” are you referring to the GC?

No. I mean that instead of measuring around the ecliptic, measure around the galactic plane, the plan that slices through the middle of the Milky Way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_plane

Janus will show you charts in galactic coordinates if you pick Wheels > Alternate Coordinate Systems and select Galactic Longitude in the upper right dropdown. Don't worry about signs when looking at this because this plane has its own starting point for astronomers and would have to be adjusted to the boundaries of the Sidereal zodiac if we were to give any significant use/exploration to this. For now, the valuable thing (if anything is valuable) is to see what it does to aspects and how they are different from the same positions measured along the ecliptic.

Janus does seem to be using (trying to use) the Galactic Center as a convenient 0-point in this display. At least, when I add GC to a galactic longitude chart, it comes out as 359°57', so I think they're trying to make it 0°/360°. - Unfortunately, it doesn't look like you can include stars in a galactic longitude chart, which limits its usability.

On how the Sidereal zodiac fits, if I run the 2024 Capsolar in Janus and then convert to galactic, Sun is at 19°16'. However, if there is a single marker of the SZ, it isn't necessarily on the ecliptic, so we can't tell that Sun's position at 0° Capricorn is the universal location in all alternate planes. Nonetheless, it's an approximation.

The real point of the section you quoted, though - aside from the theorizing that galactic coordinates may one day add something to the fixed star story - is to say that OF COURSE (duh!) ecliptical contact with fixed stars is worthless (they aren't responsive to the ecliptic) - which leaves us only with judging fixed star contacts by parans.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

However, if there is a single marker of the SZ, it isn't necessarily on the ecliptic, so we can't tell that Sun's position at 0° Capricorn is the universal location in all alternate planes. Nonetheless, it's an approximation.

Do you believe if Fagan & Bradley were alive today they would still think the “single marker of the SZ” has to be 0 Cap with the work you have contributed in your SMA book along with their work? What about you Jim, what do you think?

Jim wrote:

The real point of the section you quoted, though - aside from the theorizing that galactic coordinates may one day add something to the fixed star story - is to say that OF COURSE (duh!) ecliptical contact with fixed stars is worthless (they aren't responsive to the ecliptic) - which leaves us only with judging fixed star contacts by parans.

Jim, I think I have a good grasp of the true symbolic meanings for the Stars Regulus and Sirius with planet contacts by parans. Not sure about other stars. What is your take with other Stars and their symbolic meanings, particularly with Aldebaran?

[Jim Eshelman]

Do you believe if Fagan & Bradley were alive today they would still think the “single marker of the SZ” has to be 0 Cap with the work you have contributed in your SMA book along with their work? What about you Jim, what do you think?

I'm not sure what they'd think. To some extent, I don't think Fagan would care (but he could have changed his mind five times by now). The Solar Apex section that opens the Primer sounds like Firebrace mostly (especially because Fagan made so little of it in Astrological Origins).

Bradley... gosh, if there was anyone on the planet who would have been in the heart of mainstream astronomy with the mind to understand what he was reading it would have been Don. He might have found something entirely different, or found confirming reasons for the Apex. There is no telling what he could have done with three or four more decades if the cancer hadn't taken him before age 50 or if he had even lived another ten years until he had a computer at his disposal.

For my own thoughts, they boil down to "we don't know" and that the Apex is the most enticing but odds are against it being correct. Have you been reading the draft chapters I've been posting of CSA? The long Advanced section beginning on page 18 addresses this more fully than I have anywhere else: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7759

Jim wrote:
What is your take with other Stars and their symbolic meanings, particularly with Aldebaran?

Main take is that not enough research has been done. In the Stars section of the forum (from which you quoted this morning) I've started gathering notes. I could give you short "hits" on a particular one that might interest you. The Intermediate section of the CSA chapter on planets gives current summary: Fixed stars begin on page 22 and the larger section on possible additional supplementary "bodies" begins on page 18.
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7645

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, I will study.
For others: With Jim’s delineation of the Galactic Center (GC) for my Natal Chart (2,00 Sag), for the first time in my astrological life (38 years) I now understand the WHY I became an astrologer; not so much to do astrology for other people but to discover and understand myself as a spiritual being molded by the stars and planets into an individual being. I knew my partile Sun (2,00 Virgo)-Uranus (2,00 Gem) 90 was a very important part of my being; but, when my mind sees/understands that my Sun-Uranus calculates a hidden potential paran of Sun Rising & Uranus Culminating tied-in with the GC, I understand how/why this potential paran of Sun-Uranus in my Natal is actually the CENTER of who I truly am. It’s a revelation to me and sends goose bumps up my back/neck. There is no doubt in my mind, if you want to understand more about yourself and life experiences contemplate your Natal potential parans, it’s a worthy study.

[SteveS]

Just a thought here: It could be with our potential parans at our main residence we have underestimated the effects of the DAILY transiting angles to our Natal potential parans. It could be these Daily transiting angles to our Natal potential parans condition our psyche/thoughts and our responses to things/people around us. Of course this could never be proven, maybe only intuited by the individual astrologer who is fully conscious of their DAILY potential parans at their main residence. This could mean where we live for a majority of TIME in our lives could change our Daily conscious/responses to life.

[Jim Eshelman]

This could mean where we live for a majority of TIME in our lives could change our Daily conscious/responses to life.

There is merit in the idea of habituation of responses. I touched on this in my relocation chapter: Some natal factors may not be innately persistent, but may have established habituated responses that persist for years after we leave a place.

OTOH, I disagree that "where we live for a majority of time" innately matters. This is a form of the "home base" theory some astrologers have raised, with which I disagree vehemently. (The theory, in a nutshell, is that charts for your "home base" location - where you normally live - operate even when you aren't there.)

With parans, in particular, any evidence I have seen is that the response is second-by-second - where you are when these rotate past angles is the effect. This seems the only explanation to why they "pick up" immediately without having to be very long in a new place. (Of course, this is just going by the best evidence available. It's possible there is nothing to these at all - we haven't really confirmed in any objective, aggregate way that parans are any big deal. But, going with the best evidence we have when they do seem to operate, the geographic transitions seem nearly instantaneous.)

[SteveS]

I understand where you are coming from Jim, but relative to my limited experiences I feel the longer we stay at a location the more our psyches may be conditioned with the transiting angles to our Natal relocated potential parans at a particular location. Many times a native has no choice but stay in the same location.

[Jim Eshelman]

I understand where you are coming from Jim, but relative to my limited experiences I feel the longer we stay at a location the more our psyches may be conditioned with the transiting angles to our Natal relocated potential parans at a particular location. Many times a native has no choice but stay in the same location.

If you're still there - whether for a second or for decades - the local angles are valid while you are there. It doesn't take a long time (and I'm not sure being there a long time makes it any more important that being there a few seconds - it's valid anyway).

This is why people have events at a location as they pass through - not pausing there even for a second, e.g., an auto accident while going cross-country.

But if you are born at location A, move to and live in location B, and are visiting location C, transits to angles at location B (normal "home base" residence) are irrelevant until you get back to it. It's either the birth location (permanent), or where you are at the moment, or (for return charts) where they originally occurred (their 'birth' location).

The exception is that if you aren't at a location but an event affecting you and focusing your attention occurs at that location, then the chart for that location often will show it. It doesn't have to be a home base or even anywhere the person has been. (Consider Trump's recent lunar returns for Atlanta even though he was in New Jersey.)

[SteveS]

This is why people have events at a location as they pass through - not pausing there even for a second, e.g., an auto accident while going cross-country.

Understood Jim, kinda like Matthew which actually messed his life up big time.

[Jim Eshelman]

Great example.

[LeiLei]

When you have a chance, Jim or Steve, would one of you mind telling me my potential parans (if I have any) for Oriental, NC & for Orlando, FL? There were big differences in how I felt at the two locations. Thank you in advance.

[SteveS]

OMG LeiLei, just glanced at your Orlando, Fl location and this jumped off the chart:

https://ibb.co/R0yFPMP

It don't get much better than angular Venus-Jupiter. Give me a little time and I will get back to you for a full list for both locations.

[SteveS]

LeiLei, here you go for your potential parans for Orlando, Fl & Oriental, NC---quite a striking contrast.
Orlando:
Sun Set—Sirius IC 1,03
Moon Rise—Sirius Set 1,36
Sirius Rise---Pl IC 1,08
Sun Rise—Pl Rise 0,37
***Venus Rise—Regulus MC 1,12
Venus Set—Uranus Set 0,50
Venus Set—Mars Set 1,42
Moon Set—Sat IC 1,43
Sat Set---Neptune MC 1,30

Oriental, NC:
Jupiter Rise—Sirius Rise 0,32
Sun Set—Sirius IC 1,56
Sun Rise—Pl Rise 1,40
Nep Rise—Sirius Set 1,53

Mars Set—Pluto 0,30
Venus Set—Pluto Set 0,37
Venus Set—Mars Set 0,06
Moon Set—Saturn IC 1,15

Hell & Back for the last 4 pps---LeiLei did you happened to get mugged or raped in Oriental. For sure LeiLei---if you ever have a practical option for moving to Orlando with angular Venus (MC) & Jupiter (DSC)---seriously consider.

[LeiLei]

Hell & Back for the last 4 pps---LeiLei did you happened to get mugged or raped in Oriental. For sure LeiLei---if you ever have a practical option for moving to Orlando with angular Venus (MC) & Jupiter (DSC)---seriously consider.

Thanks Steve. No, both of those events separately occurred in Atlanta, however.

Well this is interesting & certainly something to ponder. I'll come back with my thoughts & some of my experiences in each location. I'll start off with Orlando was the single worst place I've ever lived. I lived in Winter Park for about 6 months, just my son & me, had to return to Ga for a few months, & then we went back to live in Orlando with my mother & sister. It may have been due to living with my mother that made it bad. I thought it was going to be perfect. It was my whole reason for leaving Oriental (which I loved) & I wished almost immediately that I had never left. I also had a string of negative SSR's when I moved back to FL the second time. Anyways, very interesting stuff & I'll share more later.

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve, I think we should start separating star from planet paranz
Put all star study ion a separate there's - not associated with this one.

These may not be the same phenomenon. (They might or might not). I can explain better when I get back to a real keyboard rather than phone. We might come to wrong conclusions by comparing them together. (I've seen a tendency for you and others to get excited about the Stars and have this obscure obje tive assessment of planet aspects.

[SteveS]

Then, on the surface with these two locations, it would appear relocating parans does not work. The symbolism overall should have offered the opposite of your experiences for the two locations, except maybe for the Jupiter Rise Sirius Rise 0,32 in Oriental. How long did you live in Orlando, and how long did you live in Oriental? If you lived in Orlando for a long period with Natal Venus on MC & Jupiter on DSC, this should have been a great benefic experience, if not, then we have to question relocation, at least for your case.

[LeiLei]

Then, on the surface with these two locations, it would appear relocating parans does not work. The symbolism overall should have offered the opposite of your experiences for the two locations, except maybe for the Jupiter Rise Sirius Rise 0,32 in Oriental. How long did you live in Orlando, and how long did you live in Oriental? If you lived in Orlando for a long period with Natal Venus on MC & Jupiter on DSC, this should have been a great benefic experience, if not, then we have to question relocation, at least for your case.

I don't think so, I think it depends on the person & how they respond to different energies individually. No one is the same. I was born with Venus & Jupiter foreground, those energies are within me. I see relocating to Venus or Jupiter lines as falling under a spell & becoming enchanted. I lived in Oriental for just under 10 years & Orlando just under 5 years.

[SteveS]

I hear you Jim, the only two Stars I am paying any attention are Regulus & Sirius. Makes no sense LeiLei had great experiences in Oriental, NC unless we include the Jupiter R Sirius R paran.

[SteveS]

I hear you LeiLei, thats what so good about open forums with methods of astrology, it allows us to investigate things and form our own opinions. Thanks for the feedback.

[LeiLei]

I didn't say I had great experiences in Oriental, I said I loved it. I think you're using the word 'great' to mean wonderful though. Using the traditional meaning of great, yes I did have great experiences while living in Oriental.

I've had tough experiences in every place I've lived, seems par for the course for me. But then again, doesn't everyone? I think we should be careful lumping everything into only two categories - good or bad, benefic or malefic. There's no way Ma-Pl, Ve-Pl, Ve-Ma, & Mo-Sa are all bad. When utilized correctly Ma-Pl is a powerhouse, tremendous strength. Ve-Pl all or nothing, so you find something or someone you love & you give it your all. Ve-Ma could be intense passion & being driven towards achieving goal. Mo-Sa could be setting your emotions aside for a time & diving into hard work. And when I think about my time in Oriental everything I just listed occurred. It was a strengthening time for me.

Events in Oriental, in no particular order: I experienced two deaths very close to me while living in Oriental. The deaths occurred in Atlanta but I was living in Oriental. There were other deaths as well but none as close to me as those two. I also married while in Oriental, found out early into the marriage that he was not at all who he pretended to be & I left the marriage. I had two cars totaled by hurricanes. Went up against a slumlord & won. Went back to school & was excellent. I graduated in the six months following my father's death which coincided with the ending of my marriage & having to sell off at least half of all my possessions, a good deal of which held sentimental value. This also coincided with when I truly began to paint. Creativity born from pain & loss. My mother was diagnosed with advanced cancer, also while I was in school. I took incompletes for all of my classes one semester so I could help taking her to her chemotherapy sessions because my father was having bouts of pancreatitis & had been in & out of the hospital himself. My parents were living on the Outer Banks during this time. Oh I started my own cleaning business about a year after moving to Oriental which I kept going until I moved away. I was able to only work part time & still be home to greet my son every day. Lots of day trips to the beach & the Croatan National Forest. My work also enabled me to later go to school full time & I even homeschooled my son for a year. I think that's the major stuff. There's more but I've probably shared too much already so I'll stop here. But it was awesome. I'd love to have another 10 years like it, or 20 or 30. I don't think I ever felt more alive.

I'll detail Orlando later. It will be much shorter, I promise.

[Jim Eshelman]

I hear you Jim, the only two Stars I am paying any attention are Regulus & Sirius. Makes no sense LeiLei had great experiences in Oriental, NC unless we include the Jupiter R Sirius R paran.

Ill look when we get home. Let's leave out Stars here but have separate threads if you want in the Stars forum (under experimental).

My simple thinking is that parans may be the only thing fixed stars respond to since they're outside the solar system, but planet aspect parans have to be separately confirmed as authentic. Local angularity first, relocated mundane aspects nearly as strong, parans as a lesser add on I suspect (or something like that).

[Jim Eshelman]

We need to be careful with the words good and bad. In several places, where I have written about benefics and malefics, I'm careful to distinguish those words from good and bad, which usually have moral implications. There are no absolute Goods or absolute bad. The better distinction is that most people think benific times feel good and malefic times feel bad. It's all about the good bad feeling, not the good bad events. And it allows that this is only true of most people. Some people think that bad events feel good. And good events feel bad. And all kinds of stuff in between.

The real beauty of any spectrum is that everybody is on it somewhere.

[SteveS]

Thanks LeiLei for the details while living in Oriental, it helps me with my research. And I do understand where you are coming from about malefic benefic, bad/good. To help clarify things with my posts: When I use the word benefic I mean pleasant things; malefic—unpleasant things, and both have various degrees of strength depending on other factors which are only understood by the native themselves with their own immediate environments.

Jim, I am only going to look at a couple more Star Parans involving my life with Jupiter & Regulus, and it involves two SSRs. If these two Jupiter-Regulus parans are the only two I have had in my entire life---then I will definitely use em with my work, if not, I am definitely dropping Star Parans with planets, except maybe I will consider Sun-Sirius Parans, depending on what I see with my research.

But I will defintely use Planet Parans particularily when I know someone is still living at their birthplace, I am still undecided with relocating potential planet parans, difficult for me to determine since I have no personal experience with em, I will mainly rely on your work with relocating potential planet parans. Thanks for your thoughts.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "The better distinction is that most people think benific times feel good and malefic times feel bad."

Yes, I completely agree. Sometimes, the best thing that can happen to a person (for their development) is one of the very most unpleasant things they can imagine experiencing.

It also is probably why many consider Neptune as malefic, where I see it as an inconvenient benefic! For real-world, bottom-line issues, Neptune can feel like a malefic...but if we are measuring in terms of intangible, universal development and goals; often of a spiritual, creative, or empathetic thrust, it can be GOLD. (ie. anything BUT malefic)

[SteveS]

Without a doubt one of the best manifestations for Neptune symbolism has to do with "spiritual" things. I never will forget Robert Hand saying for natives who were born with prominent Saturn-Neptune symbolism, a good thing for them to do to counter its malefic effects was to take-up some kind of Spiritual (Neptune) discipline (Saturn). But, I never like to see Mars hooked-up with Neptune in one of my Return Charts unless it is backed-up with angular Jupiter symbolism. My wife a couple of years ago had Mars-Neptune featured in her SSR and then with a later Mars-Neptune SLR contacted Covid and was tormented with its sickly effects. However, I have seen with mundane sports charts---Mars-Neptune have to do with wild positive crowd effects, some positive, some negative. Neptune symbolism at times is a tricky planet to discern.