Charles Manson

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Jim Eshelman
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Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:07 pm

Charles Manson, one of the greatest examples of astrological relocation ever, died a short while ago.

He was born November 12, 1934, 4:40 PM, in Cincinnati, OH (data courtesy of Sidereal astrologer Lenny Marcus, who was a "family" astrologer). (Set that up for Los Angeles.) He died today, November 19, 2017, at 8:13 PM in Bakersfield, CA. His final illness started as a gastro-intestinal issue.

Transiting Neptune is (at the moment) 3' past conjunction with his local Ascendant. Jupiter is in partile conjunction with his Jupiter. Mercury is conjunct his local MC.

His new SSR from a week ago has Pluto on Descendant (squared today by transiting Mars). His SLR November 12 has Saturn near MC in exact mundane square to Neptune near Ascendant (and a foreground Mars). His Demi-Lunar 10 days ago has Neptune square MC and natal Saturn rising.

So... he's dead.
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Danica » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 pm

Re his natal: this is a chart that would've bothered me very much, if I haven't heard of the Moricand pattern.
(Just sayin'...)

Here's his obituary in LA Times:
http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries ... story.html
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:38 pm

He was already a bad boy back in Ohio. But, to really see the Manson we came to know, one has to relocate him to Los Angeles :) It brings out the worst in him.
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:07 am

For contrast, knowing that double Rims tend to get in trouble, and Libra-Capricorn luminaries have a particular "bad boy" leaning, here are what some more positive Libra-Capricorn "bad boys" (and often troubled souls) look like:

Emperor Augustus
Bruce Jenner
Vivien Leigh (think Blanche DuBois + her own mental illness)
Neil Young
Barbara Hutton

There are, or course, some borinig ones, too.
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by SteveS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:31 am

Danica wrote:
Re his natal: this is a chart that would've bothered me very much, if I haven't heard of the Moricand pattern.
What is the Moricand pattern :?:

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:09 am

SteveS wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:31 am
What is the Moricand pattern :?:
Here's where it was discussed:
http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=605

But I've never disclosed what the pattern is.
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by SteveS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:50 am

Thanks Jim for the direction on Moricand.

Manson’s Natal Birth, Cincy Ohio:
https://imgur.com/a/D2udW
Manson’s relocated LA Natal:
https://imgur.com/a/wgWkC
Jim wrote:
Charles Manson, one of the greatest examples of astrological relocation ever…
Yes!!! A huge contrast from Cincy to LA, moving his very benefic angular Me/Jup in Cincy to a very malefic partile cnj Mars-Neptune angular in LA. Fagan says about Mars-Neptune:
There can be no more violently devastating combo…it is frequently in evidence at the time of torture, executions, and tones of the like…
I can’t remember the exact details—but Robert Hand and his close colleagues did a test on charts they had with murderers and their victims and Mars-Neptune was a clear cut angular signature, except they could not distinguish between the victim or the murderer.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:12 am

Yes, I once read that too in one of Robbert Hand's books.

CM has Moon, Mercury, Jupiter, Uranus, Venus and Sun angular in his natal chart and in L.A. Neptune and Mars are added in the foreground.

Another tormented double Rim, a Libra-Capricorn that jumps to mind is Marc Dutroux.
Last edited by FlorencedeZ. on Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:59 am

So, I see that the relocated chart makes his Mars angular. So this corresponds to potential for increased aggression, authority issues, substance abuse, and mental illness. Is there anything else about the relocation that brought out his worst?

What are the things that you see concerning about his chart, Danica?

I see:
Uranus-Moon square (potential for issues with authority, schizophrenia, violent criminality)
Mercury-Uranus (violent criminality)
Sun-Neptune (cult leader)
Sun-Pluto trine (anti-authoritarian, bad boy)
Moon-Mercury

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:08 am

Yes, the Mars... But especially the Mars-Neptune conjunction. (Both are very close to the angle mundanely.)
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:09 am

Gotcha, thank you. I see that I missed the Mars-Neptune.

Mars-Neptune, Mercury-Uranus, and Uranus-Moon look like the three worst aspects.

The others feel more like "contributory" aspects. And I also see Venus aspects that speak to his charm, which is especially disturbing in concurrence with the rest.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:14 am

Yes, one of the strongest themes in the chart is profound charisma.

And, I'm general, don't miss the square of his Sun-Venus conjunction to Saturn.
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Danica » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:58 am

Regarding the Moricand pattern - I've come to a conclusion about what it is, but I agree with Jim on choosing to not publicly disclose it.

Manson's chart, for the birth place (without looking at relocation) shows a basically Saturn-Venus nature; the Capricorn Moon points to tendency to identify with the "bad boy" traits, to take on some kind of Evil as a personal identity archetype; Sun-Venus in Libra says this is a charming person, who knows how to "get under your skin", and who needs a lot of emotional attention & support from his environment (the total opposite of what he got in childhood!); but this Sun-Venus is square Saturn, so I'd guess he has some deep issues with openly emotionally relating to others, needs to be in control, is internally driven by fear in his relationships, etc.
The presence of partile Mars-Neptune in this specific chart would make me speculate this might be some kind of fanatic, potentially a sex offender, a person definitely capable of inflicting pain on others.
BUT, there is Jupiter angular, and it's sq Moon - and this would lead me to think of him as a person who will actually manifest in his life the benevolent traits, not the malevolent - Jupiter the protector, the helper, the teacher, etc.

So much for the natal.

But the relocation to LA puts the Mars-Neptune on angle, and this gives a totally different twist to how the chart factors will manifest.
Neptune - the publicity, the allure, the mystery & drama; Mars - terror.
Put them tightly conjoined, on an angle, and as part of a chart showing heavy emotional impairment, and you get the recipe for a catastrophe, of one kind or another!

I think his chart is very informative, and a great case to learn from.
We see how important are the Luminary-constellations; they depict the essential "vibration", show the basic type of energy one has; and it does not disappear or get changed by the angularity - angularity is only an "outer" expression of the inner Soli-Lunar essence of the natus' nature.
I.e., a Saturn-person is essentially a Saturn-person, regardless of angular Jupiter. The angular Jupiter will give a need to be accepted, loved, etc., but this does not change the fact that the person's vital energy is primarily "colored" by Saturn's ergie.

Seeing this chart, it's hard not to wonder: what would happen, how would his life turn out to be, if he stayed near the birth-place and never relocated to California?
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:20 pm

Excellent assessment. Thanks.

I had summarized the four or five main themes as:

Charismatic but dorky (alienated?) college professor with an enormously compelling personality - and even an openly dark, even diabolic side - who also has something out of the box, shocking, or even whacky about him.

So I'm even more interested in the question: What if he'd had a different (positive) formative environment?
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Danica » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:25 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:20 pm

So I'm even more interested in the question: What if he'd had a different (positive) formative environment?
I can easily imagine him becoming a psychotherapist, in this scenario.
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:39 pm

I was just looking at Bill Clinton's chart. He has Angular Mars-Neptune conjunction, in a wide sextile to Saturn.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:11 pm

Venus-Mars-Uranus in his case is on the context of a Leo Sun.

But, again, I can see ways for that to go wrong if he'd had an upbringing like Manson's. A difference is that a pathological Clinton would have enjoyed committing the sadistic crimes himself, the need for personal domination being much stronger.
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Re: Charles Manson

Post by SteveS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:40 pm

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:
I was just looking at Bill Clinton's chart. He has Angular Mars-Neptune conjunction…
Indeed! And if you will look at Clinton’s DC 1998 SSR (link below), you will see partile Mars-Neptune 180 angular, which timed the most “torturous” time in his entire life with the Lewinsky scandal. So, Clinton’s partile Mars-Neptune Natal cnj partile cnj Natal Asc promised (destined) a tortuous circumstance in his life with Fagan’s Mars-Neptune words. The specifics of Mars-Neptune are never known to us astrologers, but the research work of the early Siderealists—proves-out unpleasant circumstances with twisted/convoluted (Neptune) circumstances of negative Mars.
Clinton’s DC 1998 SSR:
https://imgur.com/a/a2hJP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewinsky_scandal
And now this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... women.html for Clinton. Look at Clinton’s Natal Mars-Neptune falling partile CNJ on his NY 2017 SSR MC.
Clinton’s NY 2017 SSR with Natal factors (Mars-Neptune)—outer wheel, 2017 SSR inner wheel.
https://imgur.com/a/KJzmd
And the media’s deviant sexual news blitz-- along with the newly invented social media drums on against famous people.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:26 am

It is interesting (and of course, slightly worrisome) that I'm a Libra-Capricorn too. :shock: Nonetheless, great discussion here!

Also, does the fact that Manson's luminaries are both indignified (Sun in fall, Moon in Detriment) have anything to do with him?

And interestingly, the synastry of his chart to mine shows that had I been a straight woman in Los Angeles during his time, I would've easily become one of his many adoring drugged women! His charismatic Sun-Venus partile to my Moon, his Moon squaring my MC/on my descendant (not partile, though) and his Mars sesquisquaring my Jupiter, along with my Venus setting on his LA descendant.
Not to mention his Mars-Neptune-Uranus to my Jupiter shows how easily he could've influenced my beliefs (Jupiter) too. His Sun-Venus also connects to my Mercury, his Mercury squares my angle and his Mercury-Jupiter has an ecliptical midpoint partile from my IC, so maybe I would know more about him than most – though his Saturn to my Moon-Mercury also clearly shows that he may not give respect to my opinions, and to any desire of me wanting to get more intimate with him.

Jim, I think you're probably right that I tend to get attracted to those that eventually bring my shame and doom. :shock: Why though?
(Note: I'm just postulating. I'm certainly not attracted to Charles Manson in any way!)
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:20 pm
Charismatic but dorky (alienated?) college professor with an enormously compelling personality - and even an openly dark, even diabolic side - who also has something out of the box, shocking, or even whacky about him.
Danica wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:25 pm
I can easily imagine him becoming a psychotherapist, in this scenario.
Besides these, I was also thinking of "charismatic actor," but he'd still have to move to Hollywood/Los Angeles anyway...

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:07 pm
He was born November 12, 1934, 4:40 PM, in Cincinnati, OH (data courtesy of Sidereal astrologer Lenny Marcus, who was a "family" astrologer).
His birth time (4.40PM) is now AA-rated as per astro.com, as his birth certificate has been found.

Astro.com also states that:
astro.com wrote:In the late '60s, Manson lived in the Height-Ashbury district in San Francisco, California.
Relocate his chart to San Fran and his Mars-Neptune is partile squaring his MC!

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by SteveS » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:10 am

As usual Scales—a very enlightening post. I certainly have not done the tireless research that Bradley/Jim have done with astrology, especially with sign symbolism, but I believe it was Manson’s relocated angular Mars-Neptune that did the most damage—not a natal Rim of Lib-Cap. However, I can see solid certain symbolic factors of Rim Lib-Cap that would contribute to malefic action in combo with an angular Mars-Nep.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:54 am

Thank you Steve :)
Yes I agree - his luminaries wouldn't have brought the much damage to his character as much as his Mars-Neptune did. While TBH I can't believe (and I'm somewhat let down) that a delusional cult leader with intentions to incite a racial war had the same luminaries as me, (like, where has the Libra in him gone?) I see that the said cult leader had a bad upbringing, and yes, with his Mars-Neptune conjunction (brought angular, moreover), I guess that is more or less how one would end up becoming.

I'm also sort of let down that "troubled souls" make a good part of the list of Lib-Caps here: Vivien Leigh, Barbara Hutton and Marc Dutroux. Hope I don't become one too.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by SteveS » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:36 am

Scales wrote:
I'm also sort of let down that "troubled souls" make a good part of the list of Lib-Caps here:
Since Libra’s ‘regent’ is Venus, and Cap’s ‘regent’ is Saturn, I suspect Manson’s main malefic aspect (signature) for a high degree ‘troubled soul’ would be his Sun cnj Venus in Lib tightly square Saturn in Cap. Do you agree? If so, be relieved your chart does not feature a malefic aspect of Sun-Venus-Saturn, nor a partile Mars-Neptune cnj like Manson’s. To some degree, we all have parts of our souls that are ‘troubled.’ IMO, it becomes a true art for endeavoring to measure the ‘degree’ of ‘troubled’ soul parts with a natal chart without hindsight. We astrologers mostly look at natal charts with our hindsight with famous people, which always is very interesting to us with the astrological symbolism which our minds are able to see/understand on very subtle/intuitive/personal levels.

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:09 pm

Yes I agree. Thank you so much for your profound input, Steve. :)

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Re: Charles Manson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:49 am

How much can an automated astro report (generally written to be upbeat) tell us about someone like Manson? Here's what the new SF Sidereal interp file produces for Manson without any tweaking.

THE MOON

THE MOON IN CAPRICORN
Restless, confrontational. Resists persuasion, authority, & conformity. Sharp, unconventional mind. Socially charming; not self-disclosing. Humor, prankish, outlandish. Sexually attractive; wild libido. Identifies with the fringe, “bad boy/girl” (but essentially wholesome). Dark, grotesque, shocking, disturbing style (loves dark occult images). Vulnerable to dark moods. Often severe childhoods or early loss.

ASPECTS OF THE MOON
SQUARE MERCURY Orb 1°01' Separating
Intellect fused with the emotions, especially with subconscious patterns; thus, quick at assessment, intuitive, strategic (cagey, deceptive). Personality dominated by intellect & nervous system. Tremendous mental output & capacity to absorb knowledge (apt at languages, good memory). Can seem ‘all business’ in emotional matters & emotionally stubborn in factual ones: Under duress, “reasonableness” competes with reactive emotion.

SQUARE THE ASCENDANT Orb 1°13' Separating
Adaptive in response to social, psychological, & environmental conditions (mask, roll, act). Impressionable, responsive, malleable, imaginative. Needs constant stimulation (of mind or senses). Strong sexual appetites; responsive to affection, friendship, sexual suggestion. Amiable, accommodating; sensitive, receptive, tender, empathic (touchy, moody, reactive). Vulnerable to judgments, displeasure, criticism. At home before an audience.


THE SUN

THE SUN IN LIBRA
Relationship-centered. Polite, warm, affectionate; possessive, jealous. Enjoys beauty, comfort; often artistic. Appearance-conscious (vain). Tease (self & others: entice, deny, gratify). Peace (appeasement). Justice (righting wrongs). Shrewd, intense, secretive. Feminine thrives better than masculine. Optimistic futurist (personally, socially).

ASPECTS OF THE SUN
CONJUNCTION VENUS Orb 1°31' Applying
Charming, gentle, fine companions. Strong sense of friendship and natural affection. Graceful. Marked aesthetic appreciation (if not artistic talents). Most comfortable in marriage or similar relationship. (A little vain?)

SQUARE SATURN Orb 1°55' Applying
Effective survivors, self-sufficient, hard working, accomplishing. Used to hard work, few luxuries; preferring private, modest accommodations. Not always good control on strong impulses, but generally very good control of small & medium-sized ones. Authority (likely paternal) issues to overcome. Serious; enjoy deep subjects; yet few have so good a sense of humor! Childhood hardships common, circumstances force early maturation.


MERCURY

MERCURY IN LIBRA
Courteous, well-mannered expression. Tactful, gracious, persuasive, pleasant (sarcastic, withholding). Mediator, negotiator, peace-maker, diplomat (idealist). Masters of finding common denominators. Mind has considerable intensity.

ASPECTS OF MERCURY
OPPOSITION THE ASCENDANT Orb 2°15' Separating
Alert, attentive, observant, strategic, analytic. Mentally sharp, hard to fool (knows more about you than you think). Little emotional affect, hard to read. Nervous (anxiety? worry? touchy?). Easily bored without regular mental stimulation. Good at precise, detailed work; naturals at handling business. Curiosity drives sexual choices as much as any other factor.


VENUS

VENUS IN LIBRA
Relationship-focused. Polite, well-mannered, likable. Seeks active romantic-social life. Intense passions (but can deny themselves pleasure). Requires & gets loyalty & faithfulness (jealous, possessive). Secretive about sexual relationships. Vain (arousal linked to flattery). Loves beautiful things, luxury (spoiled). Mediators, negotiators, peace-makers.


MARS

MARS IN LEO
Strong, courageous, decisive, self-confident; chutzpah. Pragmatic idealist. Upbeat energy. Leap in to help (whatever is needed); takes charge as needed (autocratic?). Observant, knows what's going on, reads situations well. Sexually ardent, bold, forthright (often, but not always, the aggressor).

ASPECTS OF MARS
CONJUNCTION NEPTUNE Orb 0°35' Separating
Obsessive, concentrated, with enormous psychic power to fascinate and move minds and reality, in a thriving life of high drama. Requires rapid conformity of reality to wants (usually gets it); surges into temptation; impatient with frustrated gratification, yet often can mobilize great stamina for long-term vision. Imagination and emotion are supercharged; thrives in conditions of stirred passion. Zealous enthusiasm for interests and convictions. Can compel a nearly religious following, as if by pure will (can be manipulative). Aggressions can be dramatic; unresolved anger patterns trigger in response to frustrations. High IQ. Sexually magnetic yet wrestles with sexual demons and doubts. (This aspect is most comprehensively expressed by high dopamine levels and dopamine-driven behavior.)


JUPITER

ASPECTS OF JUPITER
OPPOSITION THE ASCENDANT Orb 1°53' Applying
Positive, optimistic, oriented to the good & qualitative. Aspires to (enjoys) life of leisure & its perks (seeks to improve self & conditions). Unusually lucky. Generous, congenial, tolerant, good-humored, kind. Sexually giving. Needs esteem & inclusion (usually well received; can be overly role-conscious). Responds to cultural totems, heritage, tradition, social graces, social & ceremonial rituals. Champion of justice & fair play. (If afflicted: air of superiority, judgmental, greedy, envious; making own luck through shady ethics or crime.)
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