Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Q&A and discussion about Synastry, i.e., relationship analysis through the comparison of two horoscopes.
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Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:27 am

I just finished Robert Hand’s book ‘Planets in Composite’ and wanted to start this thread. I still have questions, but thought I would post some of these relationship charts with people who are very close to me at my age of 71. Does SF automatically calculate angles to the defaulted location residence???

After reading Hand’s book on 'Planets in Composite' and looking at some close relationships in my life, I conclude we need to mainly use our key principles for Sidereal Astrology. These are: 1: Planets on the angles and their aspects. 2: Partile/Tight aspects of 0,90,180. 3: Partile/Tight 0,90,180 aspects with the lights.

Below is link of a Composite Chart for wife and I who have been married for 48 years. Note partile 0 for Sun-Venus and partile 90 Venus-Jupiter. I consider this a 'bingo' primarily for the overall benefic nature of our marriage combined with longevity of the marriage.

More later. Feel free to post your Composite Charts with close relationships, regardless the nature of the relationship, or give birth data for relationships in your life to be posted under this topic.

https://imgur.com/AzKoTLx
Last edited by SteveS on Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Composite Charts for Natal Midpoints

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:33 pm

SteveS wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:27 am
I just finished Robert Hand’s book ‘Planets in Composite’ and wanted to start this thread. I still have questions, but thought I would post some of these relationship charts with people who are very close to me at my age of 71. Does SF automatically calculate angles to the defaulted location residence???
Composites are normally done for the birth charts, not relocated. However, you can also calculate them relocated (and, if you're looking into them, I think you should) by first doing the relocated charts of the two people, then doing the composite of those.

You at least get some interesting patterns from this. Marion's and my composite (for birthplaces) has MC 21°58' Pisces conjunct my 22°28' Virgo Sun (with Asc conjunct my Jupiter-Uranus - my Jupiter to the minute!), while our locality composite has Asc 16°21' Taurus conjunct her 14°01' Taurus Sun. It's at least... interesting.

In Solar Fire, be sure to pick the first option, "Composite - Midpoints," not "Composite - Derived Ascendant."
After reading Hand’s book on 'Planets in Composite' and looking at some close relationships in my life, I conclude we need to mainly use our key principles for Sidereal Astrology. These are: 1: Planets on the angles and their aspects. 2: Partile/Tight aspects of 0,90,180. 3: Partile/Tight 0,90,180 aspects with the lights.
If you do, then (just so you are aware) you overthrow and ignore almost 100% of the principles on which Composite interpretation were first founded. This is quite fine, of course, when you are using more sensible principles :D but... something that always bothers me... it means you are necessarily ignoring almost all the "evidence" which caused people to support Composites in the first place.

Composite interpretation, throughout the entire existence of the method, has been based almost entirely on houses, with its first principle being that the Sun and Moon houses in a Composite set the major themes and purposes of the relationship. (John Townley's book, which brought the method to people's attention in the first place, is almost 100% this. Rob Hand diversified it a bit, though his volume is still heavily rooted in the house model.)

I agree with you that this isn't what seems most useful (though it has been a strong enough feature that I can't argue it away entirely). I also find luminary aspects and other strong aspects to catch my attention most vividly, though by no means are trines and sextiles less important than hard aspects.

Nonetheless, I just wanted to drive home something that nags me when I dig into stuff like this: If you are right, and these are the best principles of Composite analysis, then there is no reason the people who first introduced Composites would ever have found them interesting or valuable, because these are not the things they were looking at.

Yours marriage Composite is indeed an excellent one. I've seen other excellent ones, and then some clunkers (or at least charts that could be terribly misleading). Anna-Kria and I followed our composite closely, especially by transits to it, for several years and it seemed responsive on a day-by-day level; in other relationships, it's seemed like a clunker.

This was one reason I was initially intrigued by the Davison "Relationship Chart": I thought that the sometimes-useful, sometimes-clunker Composite might suggest that something resembling the Composite was operative but not exactly the Composite. But Davison's approach didn't solve the problem - it also was "win some, lose some," and seemed less reliable on describing the basic relationship than the Composite.
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Re: Composite Charts for Natal Midpoints

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:53 pm

There are two terribly interesting mathematical properties of many Composite chart aspects that arise from Composite planets being midpoints.

These two mathematical properties add an interesting complexity to judging the importance of the Composite: The math quirks identify factors that would be present and significant even if the Composite chart has no value. Do they, therefore, explain why chart seems to work sometimes and not others? Or do they reinforce factors that already exist in the respective natals or in synastry?

Here are the two interesting features:

1. If both people have the same natal aspect, then the Composite will have that aspect. For example, if both people have Mercury conjunct Saturn, then the Composite will have Mercury conjunct Saturn. If one has Mercury-Saturn conjunct and the other Mercury-Saturn opposite, the Composite chart will have Mercury square Saturn. - The orb in the Composite will be the average of the orbs in the natals, which sometimes makes weak natal aspects strong in the Composite. If the Composite is actually valid, this is a way to draw out lesser traits in each person, reflecting the common observation that latent similarities between people become stronger when they are together.

2. If the same planetary interchange (co-aspect) exists both directions between the two charts - that is, if each person's A aspects the other person's B - then the Composite will have those to planets in that aspect. The orb in the Composite will be the average of the orbs of the two co-aspects, which would make weak interchanges stronger in the Composite. The strength of this characteristic may be because the Composite is valid, or it may simply be that the composite shows an aspect that already exists two other ways between their charts.

An example of No. 1: I have Mercury conjunct Saturn, with Mercury 2°24' past Saturn (+2°24'). Anna-Kria has Mercury conjunct Saturn with Mercury 5°06' before Saturn (-5°06'). Average these two orbs and get -1°21': Our Composite indeed has a Mercury-Saturn conjunction with an orb of 1°21'.

Another example of No. 1: I have Mercury conjunct Saturn, with Mercury 2°24' past Saturn (+2°24'). Marion has Mercury square Saturn with Mercury 1°22' before Saturn (-1°22'). Average these two orbs and get +0°31', and average the conjunction and square to get a semi-square: Our Composite has a Mercury-Saturn sesqui-square with an orb of 0°31'.

An example of No. 2: Anna-Kria's Venus 6°18' Capricorn widely squares my Neptune at 1°20' Libra (+4°58'). My Venus at 1°53' Scorpio widely squares her Neptune at 7°37' Leo (-5°44'). Average these two orbs to get 0°23' and, indeed, our Composite has a 0°23' Venus-Neptune square.

Another example of No. 2: Marion's Venus 19°28' Aries squares my Mercury at 17°21' Libra (+2°08'). My Venus at 1°53' Scorpio opposes her Mercury at 27°31' Aries (+4°22'). Average these two orbs to get +3°15' and, indeed, our Composite has a 3°15' Mercury-Venus opposition.
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Re: Composite Charts for Natal Midpoints

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:14 pm

Finally, there is a philosophical question to raise about these charts.

With synastry, we are comparing the charts of two actual people, each of whom was born, each of whom continues to exist in time and space.

The Composite chart theory seems to be that the relationship itself exists as an independent entity. Admittedly, sometimes a relationship can feel as if it exists as a distinct entity (the third person in the room) and has a life of its own independent of the two people; but, does it really?

I don't have an answer for this, and have leaned one way or the other at different points in time. But I think it's a question everyone working with Composites should ask themselves and, perhaps, struggle with a bit.
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Re: Composite Charts for Natal Midpoints

Post by SteveS » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:18 am

Thanks for your excellent input Jim on this topic, I knew you had a-lot of experience with Composite Charts. I understand and agree with all the points you raised about issues involving composite charts. When I finished Hand’s Book on Composite Charts I was very dubious with his methods of using Houses for delineations purposes, and since this is a Sidereal Astrology forum, I wanted to only apply principles of Sidereal Astrology to my testing of Composite Charts with my life, since my own work has definitely proved to me Sidereal Astrology principles are far superior to Tropical principles. However, I do agree with you we probably should include tight orbed sextiles & trines for Composite analysis.

I have always respected Hand’s research work with his work into the field of astrology but respect your research work into the field of Sidereal Astrology much more than anyone's else work in the field of Tropical Astrology. But, I reserve my final judgement with these Composite Charts until I analyze em with all the close relationships in my life. This is my first time testing Composite Charts in my life with my life. Here are some words from Hand’s book on Composite Charts:
And many relationships have made little or no sense in terms of synastry have become completely clear with the composite chart. I felt that the composite technique was superior to the traditional techniques of synastry.


Since I have little experience with synastry charts but understand their principles, I will wait until I complete my own analysis with these Composite Charts with examples in my life, but I am going to be surprised if the Composite Chart proves better than the standard Synastry Chart.

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Re: Composite Charts for Natal Midpoints

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:09 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:18 am
Here are some words from Hand’s book on Composite Charts:
And many relationships have made little or no sense in terms of synastry have become completely clear with the composite chart. I felt that the composite technique was superior to the traditional techniques of synastry.

Since I have little experience with synastry charts but understand their principles, I will wait until I complete my own analysis with these Composite Charts with examples in my life, but I am going to be surprised if the Composite Chart proves better than the standard Synastry Chart.
It's been decades since I've read that book. Remind me, please, did he give examples of relationships that specifically didn't work well with synastry but where the Composite was revelatory? We might look at those with a new eye, since we have a lot more collective experience in synastry than we did at that time.
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Re: Composite Charts for Natal Midpoints

Post by SteveS » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:30 am

Jim wrote and asked:
It's been decades since I've read that book. Remind me, please, did he give examples of relationships that specifically didn't work well with synastry but where the Composite was revelatory? We might look at those with a new eye, since we have a lot more collective experience in synastry than we did at that time.
I understand Jim. In Chapter 3 for Hand's composite examples Hand offered 5 examples , 2 private and 3 well known public couples. Hand gives no examples of relationships that didn’t work well with synastry compared to a composite chart. In all 5 examples he refers to his 9 steps of reading the Composite Chart, which I feel are inferior to our main Principles of Sidereal Astrology for reading purposes.

I have just looked at the Composite Chart relationship for me and a friend/business colleague (Curtis & SteveS) for over 40 years. This relationship has been very benefic (note the tight cnj of Venus-Jupiter) on a friendly and business basis. Both are Virgos (note 6 planets rising in sign Virgo) and there is absolutely no detail they don’t understand to its fullest pertaining to every structural phase of the commercial theater business, both exhibition and distribution sides of the industry. Both have worked long daily hours in this industry with long careers encompassing a passion that they never considered as work but fulfillment on a strong benefic emotional level entertaining the public with good movies and great fresh popcorn :)

I started working in the industry at 6 years of age, Curtis when he was 13. We both could and do spend hours talking to each other about the industry for pure benefic enjoyment. However, I see a possible problem with this composite chart: Normally an astrologer who was looking at this composite chart for a beginning relationship without knowing the long term effects of this relationship, could make an erroneous interpretation the partile cnj of Sun-Saturn is malefic or for the tight 180 of Moon to Mars-Pluto, neither of these aspects have manifested malefic symbolism, only very positive effects. In other words the lights in this composite chart are afflicted with the traditional malefics. What this is telling me: A composite chart founded on a Business relationship, as this relationship was initiated, should be read much differently than a relationships founded on sexual attraction which is normally the basis of couples starting a relationship-- which at times leads to marriage. So, of course, we as astrologers must distinguish the specific type of relationship we are analyzing for specific objectives. For sure if we are analyzing possibilities for marriage, we need to at least glance at the composite chart, imo.

Of special notice: This relationship composite chart features a rising Mercury cnj Neptune which I as an astrologer have long recognized a distinct signature for the Movie Business with our Natal's. Both natives in this relationship composite chart were born with tight Mercury-Neptune cnjs. Based on this composite chart, if one were analyzing a possible business relationship, I would certainly note the aspects with Mercury.

Composite Chart:
https://imgur.com/7v2BeD2

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Re: Composite Charts for Natal Midpoints

Post by SteveS » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:55 am

Jim wrote:
If you do, then (just so you are aware) you overthrow and ignore almost 100% of the principles on which Composite interpretation were first founded. This is quite fine, of course, when you are using more sensible principles :D but... something that always bothers me... it means you are necessarily ignoring almost all the "evidence" which caused people to support Composites in the first place.
Yes, I understand where you are coming from Jim, great point. I have not looked at a-lot of composite charts, only a few with close relationships in my life. And what I am seeing is tight/partile aspects accurately describing the relationship, mainly using Sidereal Astrology principles. If I was to include dozens of couple’s Natal Charts with the Composite Chart, yes, I think an astrologer would have to include the reading principles Hand and others used to read the relationship.

Jim wrote:
Nonetheless, I just wanted to drive home something that nags me when I dig into stuff like this: If you are right, and these are the best principles of Composite analysis, then there is no reason the people who first introduced Composites would ever have found them interesting or valuable, because these are not the things they were looking at.
Exactly! But the astrologers who wrote books on the Composite Chart were using Tropical Astrology principles, and as far as I know were not aware of the main Sidereal Astrology principles, which imo, can allow reading a composite chart better. I believe the Composite Chart is more understood with Sidereal Astrology principles vs Tropical principles, only when the astrologer is examining someone it his/her life who has been a very close relationship for many years. Only then can the astrologer understand the finer detailed symbolism for a Composite Chart, imo. But, if I was starting my life over I believe it worthwhile/better to look at the Composite Chart, both with Sidereal & Tropical principles. Here are Hand’s 9 guidelines for examining/reading a Composite Chart:
1: Before you examine the composite chart, evaluate the two natal charts for their inherent capacity to have relationships. See what the individual seems to want in a relationship and the kind of person he or she is attracted to.
2: Check the Composite Chart for any strong house emphasis, that is, a house with 4 or more planets in it.
3: Check the house of composite Sun & Moon.
4: Check the aspects to composite Sun and Moon
5: Check the house positions and aspects to Venus & Mars
6: Check the aspects involving planets near the four angular house cusps, the principle houses of relationships.
7: See what is happening in the first, fifth, seventh, and eleventh houses.
8: Check the house position and aspects of Saturn.
9: Check whatever is left over.
Using Hand’s above reading guidelines, the link below is an outstanding example of a relationship between me and my best friend, lasting for over 50 years. Note the benefics in the 11th house, they are outstanding. And the 11th is the house of ‘friends.’ Note the malefics in the 7th house, both of us had mothers who had to survive as single mothers, both losing their husbands early on in life, one to an unexpected death, and the other to a divorce. Both me and my friend had to take special care of our mothers due to destructive types of manifestations, seen with Mars, Saturn, Pluto in 7th house. Note the sign Cancer in 7th house denoting strong symbolic factors pertaining to the 'family/mother unit. Also note the composite Sun in the 11th house with a tight 180 to Dragon’s head symbolizing special male ‘connections,’ so right-on for best male friends ‘connecting’-up in life. Again, I must state that we probably only see these type exemplary composite examples with known long lasting relationships, knowing the finer details of the relationship. Hand’s first sentence in his Composite book is:
I have found the technique of composite charts , as described in this book, to be the most reliable and descriptive new astrological technique that I have ever encountered. Many time I have taken the charts of utter strangers, and by using the composite chart, described the most intimate details of their relationship with each other. I have been able to describe not only how they get along on a day-to-day level, but also details about major events in their relationship.


Composite Chart for two best friends:

https://imgur.com/IITyLwW

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:19 am

Thanks for posting Rob's summary approach - as I mentioned, it's been many years since I cracked open this book.

When I was reading his recommended steps, what struck me most most vividly is that this is almost exactly the approach Fagan and Bradley employed in their first years of using Sidereal solar and lunar returns! (The method in Bradley's book, which is similar to Fagan's approach from his writings in the '40s. This doesn't mean it's the best method of looking at solunars, of course, but it's at least interesting to see the commonality of thought (except that Rob's list above has additional matters that focus especially on the relationship characteristics most peole want to know, such as Venus and Mars placements). The Fagan-Bradley early method was:

1. Check Sun and Moon houses.
2. Check Sun and Moon aspects.
3. Check planets close to angles and their aspects.
4. More broadly, check what else is happening in the angular houses.
5. Check for partile transits of return chart planets to natal planets.
6. Check whatever is left.

There is a similarity of astrological roots and general sense of thinking about things.

BTW, I don't know if you've ever seen John Townley's book Composite Charts: The Astrology of Relationship. It's the book that introduced composites to the astrological world and was a gigantic splash years ahead of Hand's book. I mention it because his recommended approach was entirely house-driven. Really, the only thing he said to do was to look for the houses of Sun, Moon, and any stellia and they would tell you what the relationship was about. (Really, that was it!) That "starting point" is in the Hand steps as his starting point also, then he stretched it. (I don;t think John was that simplistic in his own work, either. I only met him socially a couple of times. My impression is that he just wanted something simple that would hook people's attention on the idea.)
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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Arena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:51 am

It's been a long time since I looked into composites, but I decided to take another look at my composite with my partner.

I guess we could say it is descriptive of our relationship with the most influential planets being Venus and Saturn in the first house/sign. Venus is closer to the ASC in Rvk and much closer in Edinburgh. Then we have the Moon square the MC of the chart and Uranus square the ASC of the chart, so in the 4th house of home. Sun sextile Moon. Sun square Jupiter and Venus trine Jupiter.

Love, duty, changes to our homes and emotional ups and downs pretty much describes it all :) ...but this composite actually tells me that if they are indeed descriptive of a relationship and they can also be relocated, then Venus is very close to the AC in Edinburgh, which would bring out that Ven-Jup aspect which gives hope that the core of the relationship will actually survive through these difficult times.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:06 am

Arena wrote:
...but this composite actually tells me that if they are indeed descriptive of a relationship and they can also be relocated, then Venus is very close to the AC in Edinburgh, which would bring out that Ven-Jup aspect which gives hope that the core of the relationship will actually survive through these difficult times.
An interesting point to consider, but the two natals birth location determine the primary angles in a composite chart according to my understanding with Hand's teachings.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Arena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:09 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:27 am
Below is link of a Composite Chart for wife and I who have been married for 48 years. Note partile 0 for Sun-Venus and partile 90 Venus-Jupiter. I consider this a 'bingo' primarily for the overall benefic nature of our marriage combined with longevity of the marriage.

More later. Feel free to post your Composite Charts with close relationships, regardless the nature of the relationship, or give birth data for relationships in your life to be posted under this topic.

https://imgur.com/AzKoTLx
Steve, I've always wondered if we should consider SA movements for the angles in a composite chart. Since you've been married for so long, maybe you can tell us if you saw particularly strong effect of Uranus in year 14-15 of your marriage? Sudden changes to the couple's life? Moving homes, changing careers? And then 21-22 years into your marriage the angles come to your Venus, Sun and Jupiter. Did something special happen at the time? ...and then followed by AC to Nep two years later? ...and if we regress the AC, about 13 years into the relationship there would have been Saturnian hardship and about 33 into the marriage a separative or transformative Plutonian period. You have Jupiter and Moon in the 5th sign of this chart, so the marriage should have bore fruit with children and with Saturn in the first sign it should be long lasting and filled with the feeling of duty.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Arena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:14 am

SteveS wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:06 am
Arena wrote:
...but this composite actually tells me that if they are indeed descriptive of a relationship and they can also be relocated, then Venus is very close to the AC in Edinburgh, which would bring out that Ven-Jup aspect which gives hope that the core of the relationship will actually survive through these difficult times.
An interesting point to consider, but the two natals birth location determine the primary angles in a composite chart according to my understanding with Hand's teachings.
Yes, I checked them all... and the birth location midpoint method has all the same planetary placements, it just has Venus a bit further from the AC... but still both Venus and Saturn in the first house, both of them foreground, which describes a relationship of love and duty, devotion and responsibilities - which is pretty much what we have.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:34 am

Arena, let me look into your timing points and get back with you for possible answers. For now, all I know for sure is there has always been a strong 'love' (Venus) bond between us even with all the hardships our long marriage has endured. I have always pondered how the hell our marriage survived through the bad times. Last week when I ran our composite relationship for the first time, and then seeing the strong tight/partile benefic aspects with Venus in the Composite chart explained to me from an astrological symbolic reason---WHY our marriage has survived for these many years. Further investigations into the Composite Chart with close relationships in my life is impressing me very much as a valid astrological technique to be analyzed after looking at the standard synastry charts. We never had children because I did now want children for certain economic reasons, but she naturally wanted children. This difference of opinions about children, discovered only after the marriage, should have been reason enough to break the marriage apart, but instead the marriage survived with a strong bond of love. Again, the Composite Chart explains why we are still together. Her Aquarius Moon has helped greatly in out marriage--she should have divorced me long ago.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Arena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:58 am

Wow, Steve, I did have a hunch that there might not have been any children because of that Saturn trine Jupiter - perhaps denying children with its restrictive nature... but I thought that the Jup along with Moon would have overcome that... but obviously not. Since I have been guided (by the Universe) to always look at the tropical charts as well, I can see that the comp Moon would actually not fall into the 5th house, but rather the 6th house which can mean restrictions on the Moon if you use the house system. It would also show Jup in Capri (jupiter's fall) and not Sagi in the 5th which also restricts Jup. I am not saying you must look at the tropical... but I am saying that it tells me a lot to see the tropical. In comparison you can look at my composite which also has Jup in the 5th, in Sagi tropical, in Scorpio sidereal, but not aspected by any other planet than the Sun, hence no malefic influence. We seem very fertile together, three pregnancies within our first 3 years together. I had to put a stop to our fertility with contraception because I was sure that otherwise I'd just go on to have 5-6 kids. So in both our cases the tropical charts with houses would actually explain our Jupiters in the 5th houses very well, but in the very different states and outcomes.

If I do the same to my composite as I did with yours, Steve, just moving the angles by primary motion I do see the milestones of those angles to the planets.

This means approximate timings of:
about 8 yrs into our relationship the downer of Saturn was the first real trouble we had in 2015 (we started in March 2007) when suddenly things changed so much after having had our first years of love, connection, making our home renovations, bringing two children into the world and then suddenly me going into a strange period - not wanting to marry him when he asked, but went to the opposite extreme of almost separating at the time. The AC is one degree off a direct hit for that.

If I regress the AC to Venus it is almost 10°, and it was just 3 months short of our 10 yrs anniversary that we got engaged in Tenerife, Christmas 2016.

Not sure what to make of the IC to Mars, that is 9° and we did actually move to Edinburgh when we had been together 9 years, or in summer 2016. But in other ways I am not sure of the Mars energy around that time since it was actually just a time of study... so would fit with regressing the IC to meet Mercury - but that seems too far off strangely since we both went back to Uni, it would have been very descriptive of that year. But this chart seems to give us Mercury influence this year, or 12 yrs into our relationship. This would also mean that next year is REALLY shaky with the IC moving to shattering Pluto which could mean a new start, moving homes or possibly a separation or a separative heavy period. IF the relationship survives that Pluto touch ... then the next touch will be the AC to the Sun in 7 yrs time.

IF I compare and use a slightly earlier bt for myself, but same for his... then the AC is on the direct midpoint between Ven & Sat, meaning approx 8 Degrees from both - which would fit with year 2015 when he actually proposed and wanted to get married and I said no with a period of downfall in the relationship. Very fitting.
The earlier bt would also fit with the regr IC hitting Mercury when we moved to Edinburgh and both studied our first year here ...this would be followed by the IC touching Mars about 11 yrs into the relationship... which is essentially the last year (full of tensions and fighting - our children have never seen this kind of aggression from their father before) ... and this would mean the Pluto separative period would be slightly later or in about 2-3 yrs from now. Let's see if we survive :)

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:30 am

Arena wrote:
Wow, Steve, I did have a hunch that there might not have been any children because of that Saturn trine Jupiter - perhaps denying children with its restrictive nature... but I thought that the Jup along with Moon would have overcome that... but obviously not.
I think this Moon-Jupiter in your house system of the 5th manifested in a manner of the relationship finding a-lot of fun ways to entertain each other. Both of us would take turns coming-up with ways which we agreed would entertain both of us. In other words, we found ways to have fun together.
Arena wrote:
If I do the same to my composite as I did with yours, Steve, just moving the angles by primary motion I do see the milestones of those angles to the planets.
Interesting. Hand stated about other techniques with composite charts:
It can and be progressed and transited, and there is even a technique for doing solar returns based on a composite chart. Progressions or secondary directions to a composite chart are done simply by calculating the progressed chart of each person involved in the relationship and then making a composite chart of the two progressed charts.
I am still trying to absorb the teachings on the composite chart itself with the relationship.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Arena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:58 am

I think this Moon-Jupiter in your house system of the 5th manifested in a manner of the relationship finding a-lot of fun ways to entertain each other. Both of us would take turns coming-up with ways which we agreed would entertain both of us. In other words, we found ways to have fun together.
This enjoying each others company can also be explained by the Sun-Venus conjunction. But the Jup placement may have also helped with that. But in the astrological sense, Jup in Sagi in 5th with Moon should not at all express as a childless relationship - rather the opposite. Putting the tropical glasses on where both Jup and Moon (both child connected planets) would fall into different signs, Capri and Aqua, would be seen as in a barren sign (restricted by Saturn) with the added restrictive aspect of Saturn. Very natural and logical explanations. But you don't have to agree with me Steve, I am just pointing out the obvious. Since I have no restrictions on my mind astrologically, I always look at both zodiacs and find that very very often the tropical view is just as valid and sometimes even more so than the sidereal view. And I often have found the whole sign house system showing very good results whereas using any other houses simply makes no sense at all /meaning just to look at the symbolic meaning of planets in houses). But I am always ready to agree to disagree because I simply don't care so much what other people think and have not yet seen concrete, reliable and extensive comparative research producing any proofs one way or the other.

Well, as you see in my case I think the angles do describe milestones within our relationship. I guess I should look into my ex-husbands composite as well... although I am not quite sure I got his right birth time.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:43 am

Arena wrote:
But I am always ready to agree to disagree because I simply don't care so much what other people think and have not yet seen concrete, reliable and extensive comparative research producing any proofs one way or the other.
I understand Arena. We can always debate the so-called 'concrete' proofs, and imo, it will always come down to one’s own individual astrological experiences with their individual resonance with the type astrology they are practicing. You practice the Whole Sign system--thats ok with me, I practice what the Sidereal Astrology experts have proven to me with Campanus house system with their practices.

For example with comparison of our house systems: if you will take the composite I posted about the relationship of my best friend—look at the 11th house of friendship itself for the Campanus houses, and you see 5 midpoints in the 11th, Moon-Venus, Jupiter, Mercury, and Sun tight 180 North Node in 5th. Whole Signs in the composite show Moon-Venus-Jupiter-Mercury midpoints in 12th, which I think you would agree makes absolutely no sense for best friends in life. But I am sure you see lots of valid house symbolism with Whole Signs—so we will just disagree which house system is correct and respect each others own individual astrological experiences with our different types of systems we practice, and do our best to get along with each other on this Sidereal Astrology forum :)

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Arena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:38 am

Well Steve, surely no need to debate it - but still ok to discuss instead of ignoring each others' perspectives. ;)

It is, to me, very strange if nothing outside of the usual techniques can be mentioned in here. But since you mention it - the chart for two best friends would still make a whole lot of sense with the whole sign house system since it has a radiating sunshine in the 11th house of friendships. And the type of losses you describe with your mothers can easily be fitted into the symbolism of 8th and 12th houses combined. You share a certain sense of losses and perhaps violence (hidden in the 8th house), probably hidden to most other people, but you are able to connect and understand each other both on a conscious and unconscious level and grow spiritually. The 12th house is the house of the spiritual deep connections and can also symbolize losses, but can also mean overcoming great difficulties and reversals, sometimes in extreme circumstances. The Moon is there in the 12th possibly symbolizing the hidden suffering of the mothers. The Venus&Jup conjunction in there gives it the theme of benefics, so overcoming the great difficulties - perhaps your friendship helped you both a lot to do so, but without the outside world knowing it.
Neptune is in the 10th which would mean that you are projected to the outside world, or you most likely will be known for the theatre/film/music interest.

These are just guesses based on what you've said above and fitting into the house system just for the sake of demonstration since it has been said that it is of importance to look at the houses in composites.

The Sun-Saturn aspect can mean long lasting bond, a trusting and solid bond... whereas the Moon to Pluto can represent the difficulties, separation and/or loss of the mother.

I'm not saying you have to look at it with the whole sign houses, but I encourage you to do so to contemplate on it deeply for the comparison of each and every chart. You can see it so clearly in my chart f.ex. where no house system makes any sense at all if you are looking at the symbolism of the houses. But the whole sign system makes a whole lot of sense, especially combined as both by looking at it from ASC in 1st and also starting with the EP in 1st house. Both very descriptive, and combined makes so much sense.
Last edited by Arena on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by Arena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:52 am

I am sure that Hand also does not recommend looking at the composite in isolation? But rather as a combo with the synastry chart, rigth?

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:43 am

Arena, Hand says about the 11th house specifically using composite charts:
A strong 11th house is very appropriate in a composite chart, for it is the house of friendship.
So I will not debate you on a fitting 12th house for a friendship using Whole Signs between my best friend and I of 50 years. But I certainly understand you like to debate/discuss issues with your natal Moon-Mercury-Mars aspect. No way I can win a debate with you. :lol:

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:32 am

Arena wrote:
I am sure that Hand also does not recommend looking at the composite in isolation? But rather as a combo with the synastry chart, rigth?
Probably right. I am like Jim, I see a-lot of possible mixed signals by only looking at the composite chart; however I see enough solid hits with the composite in hindsight to make em most interesting. But, there is no way, imo, an astrologer could take my composite with the relationship with my best friend and explain accurately how those malefics in the 7th of the composite would manifest. Also, no way an astrologer could take the malefics aspected to the lights of my closest business colleague composite chart and not delineate malefic happenings, imo. I think with the astrologer the composite chart is a valid tool, but only by looking at em with hindsight—not foresight. I see too many ways an astrologer with foresight can with total accuracy delineate a composite without first looking at the synastry chart, and even then...

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:27 pm

Jim wrote:
BTW, I don't know if you've ever seen John Townley's book Composite Charts: The Astrology of Relationship. It's the book that introduced composites to the astrological world and was a gigantic splash years ahead of Hand's book. I mention it because his recommended approach was entirely house-driven.
Yes, I understand Jim, but have not read Townley’s book on Composite Charts: The Astrology of Relationships. Townley’s wrote the Foreword for Hand’s book: “Planets in Composite” and said Hand’s book was the definitive book on Composite Charting.

Jim wrote:
Really, the only thing he said to do was to look for the houses of Sun, Moon, and any stellia and they would tell you what the relationship was about. (Really, that was it!) That "starting point" is in the Hand steps as his starting point also, then he stretched it. (I don;t think John was that simplistic in his own work, either. I only met him socially a couple of times. My impression is that he just wanted something simple that would hook people's attention on the idea.)
What few Composite Charts I have looked at with close relationships in my life is certainly proving Townley’s work with Composite Charts pertaining to your words in above quote. I am impressed as I am sure Hand was also impressed with Townley’s original book on Composite Charting. Some Forewords from Townley:
The origin of the composite chart is shrouded in obscurity. According to the noted German astrologer Edith Wangemann, two researchers were working on it in Germany in the 1920s. But the technique predates that time and, like a good folk son, it must be considered traditional in origin.

Whatever its origin, the composite chart was unknown to most astrologers in England and the United States until 1974, when Samuel Wiser published my work, The Composite Chart, outlining basic composite structure. In the comparatively brief span of time since then, I have watched skeptical or uninterested astrologers become enthusiastic about the technique.

But in order for any technique to gain wide acceptance and use, there must be a definitive work on the subject so that each astrologer will not have to do extensive research on the technique. Robert Hand has produced the much-needed definitive volume on composite charts. This broad and thorough work on the subject will aid the both the astrologer and student in the delineation of an important technique.


Thanks for your important input Jim.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:28 pm

Arena wrote:
Steve, I've always wondered if we should consider SA movements for the angles in a composite chart.
:shock: This really got me to pondering this most interesting question about Solar Arcs with a composite chart!!! Hand makes a strong mathematical statement, which I don’t understand the math, that the longitude positions of a composite midpoint on the composite wheel are exact, and a composite chart has correct mathematical primary angle placements. If this is true then I think we could indeed direct with SAs the composite wheel for important incidents in the relationship. But I just learned from Jim we can’t dynamically SA our composite charts with solarfire. Therefore we must estimate the years of our exact SAs midpoints in a Composite Chart or remember the exact years when important incidents happened. Depending on the time of year for a marriage to begin a SA midpoint composite chart, each individual SAs midpoints motion in a relationship composite will be different, but we can use the 1 year = 1 degree estimate to SA our composite charts.

Quickly spot checking my wife’s and I composite chart I note in app 13 years from our marriage date, SA Saturn midpoint exactly cnj our composite chart’s ASC. Our Composite Saturn Midpoint at 13,28 Leo SA to 26,31 Leo in 1984, and this just so happens to coincide exactly with the worst economic time of our relationship/marriage! In our entire 48 years of marriage, this was the time we ran out of all of our savings with both of us out of work with no clues what to do next for careers. We were completely broke and owed the IRS several thousand of $, it was so Saturn depressing. It was definitely the most depressed time in our relationship! Very interesting Arena, I need to investigate other composite charts for verification this may be a very enlightening discovery for a composite chart with its relationship, timing important symbolic incidents. But I really need to be able to dynamically put these composite charts into motion with Solarfire to spot check lots of composite charts, and then ask a-lot of questions with my close relationships about certain important timing incidents in their life. A somewhat difficult research task.

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Re: Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:06 pm

GOD ALL MIGHTY!
Take a look at the composite chart of my best friend and his stepson who he truly loved, but ended in tragedy when the stepson committed suicide! This tragic relationship and event almost destroyed the life of my best friend. Folks, I think we need to seriously start paying more attention to our composite charts with close relationships or beginning relationships. I will get the time of the suicide checking SAs and SP.

https://imgur.com/pjSrYJq

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