The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

General Discussion on Mundane Astrology matters for which a specific forum does not exist.
SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by SteveS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:00 am

Some synchronicities with the Synectic Vernal Point (SVP) and certain key events with key USA Mundane Charts. It may be when the SVP appears partile cnj the Primary Angles of important USA Sidereal Mundane Astrology charts, important historical events occur.
1: Boyd’s USA Declaration of War Chart: 7/6/1775 11:00 AM LMT, Philadelphia, Pa.
Asc 7,57 Virgo partile 180 SVP
2: 1776 Capsolar Ingress (Master Chart of the Year when Declaration of Independence was signed in Philadelphia)
Asc 7,46 Virgo partile 180 SVP
*Note Asc of 1775 Declaration of War Chart and 1776 Capsolar are partile cnj.
3: 1969 Capsolar with Moon Landing:
Asc 5,07 Pisces partile cnj SVP
4: July 20th, 1969, the day of the Moon Landing there was an exact cnj of:
Jupiter & Uranus at 6,22 Virgo partile 180 SVP
*Note this Jupiter-Uranus cnj at 6,22 Virgo 1,35 cnj Boyd’s Asc & 1,24 cnj the 1776 Declaration of Independence Capsolar Asc.

Conclusion: Even though very rarely occurring, we may need to monitor when key USA Sidereal Mundane Chart primary angles partile 0,90,180 the SVP. Maybe also, although again very rarely with partile 0,90,180 planetary aspects. From a geometric view, when the SVP appears on an angle of a Sidereal Mundane Astrology chart, the Circle is perfectly Squared with 4 90-degree angles.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:04 am

Steve, I think you should just call this the Vernal Point (VP). "Synetic Vernal Point" actually doesn't refer to the VP position itself, but to the Bradley definition of the Sidereal zodiac's relationship to the Tropical zodiac, Regardless of the ayanamsa you are using, the point you are charting is simply the Vernal Point (and, as you probably know, can be added as VP on Solar Fire charts).
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2720
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:23 am

The vernal point is the point where the sun's path (the ecliptic) appears to cross the earth's equator and head north. That makes it a node - the sun's node. Just tying the threads together here.

SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by SteveS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:30 am

Jim wrote:
Steve, I think you should just call this the Vernal Point (VP).
Yes, I understand Jim. Since you mention the vernal point, we may need to pay more attention to Uranian Alfred White School of Astrology using the 0 Aries point (vernal point) in their work with charts.

Robert Hand writes:
I have found the Aires Point (Vernal Point) extremely useful.
I have no experience using the vernal point in Sidereal charts, but it may play an important role with certain Mundane Sidereal Charts. I think I have some Hand material about the vernal point--I will try and dig out.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:41 am

It might. It's a real astronomical point. I'm aware of Witte's treatment of it as a point of connection to the world in general, and have looked, occasionally over the years, at whether it seems connected in that way - no confirmation (no reaction either way, actually). But worth an occasional revisit.

Here's something to try: At the U.S. birth (7/4/1776), the VP was 8°23' Pisces. I this point responsive to transits and progressions for major events in U.S. history? - I like this test because it distinguishes the location from current people's charts, all of which will have he VP in the 5-6° Pisces range.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:46 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:41 am
Here's something to try: At the U.S. birth (7/4/1776), the VP was 8°23' Pisces. I this point responsive to transits and progressions for major events in U.S. history?
Since I have the SMA ctalogue stored on SF, let me check quickly for major events studied that have any planets within a degree of 8°23' Spoke to see if we have any relevant-seeming transits. - Notice that the purpose of this is to explore whether the VP is a viable natal factor that can be transited.

Presidential Deaths & Similar Leader Crises
(Only one, which seems poor showing.)
William McKinley died - Neptune 8°00' Gemini (or 7°54' when he was shot)

Space Exploration Thresholds
(A couple, not much.)
Yuri Gagarin launch (adverse to U.S.) - Mercury 8°54' Pisces
Apollo 8 orbited Moon - Sun 7°57' Sagittarius

Wars & Warlike Beginnings/Endings
(Because these most connect the U.S. to "the world," we might expect more here if that interpretation is correct. There are a few, not many; and the messages are rather mixed.)
Bombing of Hiroshima - Venus 7°49' Gemini (seems quite wrong!)
Korean War began - Sun 8°41' Gemini
VJ Day - Jupiter 7°36' Virgo (OK, that's pretty good!)

Populist Uprisings & Suppressions
Waco Siege - Venus 9°15' Pisces (?)

Misc. Other Events
(It does pretty well for bombs & explosions! If this doesn't prove to be a viable factor alone, I wonder what bomb-related factor might be at 8° Spoke.)
Bath School Disaster - Uranus 8°39' Pisces
Phillips disaster - Uranus 7°32' Sagittarius
South Amboy explosion - Uranus 8°57' Gemini
Boston Marathon explosion - Mercury 7°34' Pisces (runners?)
Panic of 1819 - Mars 8°04' Sagittarius [on probable trigger date]
Cocoanut Grove Nightclub fire - Neptune 7°46' Virgo
Happy Land Social Club fire - Jupiter 7°30' Gemini
Hurricane Camille - Uranus 7°40' Virgo
Richard Speck murders - Mars 8°27' Gemini (that's pretty good!)
San Ysidro McDonald's shooting - Moon 7°40' Pisces
Clipper Traderwind crash - Mars 8°35' Sagittarius


CONCLUSION: Well, so much for that. Perhaps the VP is important in present time (as Steve seems to be suggesting from his exampesO, but it does not appear to be a valid point for transit. (Note, plese, that any U.S. birthdate within a few decades would have a close enough VP that these results would be the same.)
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by SteveS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:57 pm

Jim wrote:
Perhaps the VP is important in present time (as Steve seems to be suggesting from his exampes, but it does not appear to be a valid point for transit.
Agreed. I am only going to make a mental note to track when vernal point appears on the primary angles of SMA solar ingresses, and then scan forward to see if there are major planetary transiting aspects in the heavens interacting with with these primary angles--really no different than we are doing now, except it could indicate some type of important world event with the vernal point on a primary angle.

SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by SteveS » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:27 am

Jim wrote:
I'm aware of Witte's treatment of it as a point of connection to the world in general…
Yes, Robert Hand writes about the “Aries Point” in the Tropical system with Genethlical astrology:
In the 1920s and 1930s the 0-degree Aries Point (Vernal Point) was given a new role in the Uranian system by Alfred Witte and his followers. Hence it is associated with fame and greater social significance through the greater world when prominently configured Nataly with the personal points: the Midheaven, Ascendant, Sun, and Moon. Although it (Vernal Point) is not an energy source like a true planet, the Aries point is treated like a planet in that it receives and gives aspects in the normal manner.
With my early observations with Mundane Astrology in the Sidereal zodiac, I was recognizing the Synectic Vernal Point (SVP) not immediately realizing the SVP was one and the same astronomical point as the 0 Aries Point in the Tropical System, which of course is simply the Vernal Point. Thanks Jim and JSAD for pointing this astronomical fact out to me.

So, what we have here with the Vernal Point according to Witte’s system in Genethlical astrology is: The Vernal Point when falling on the personal points of a Natal Chart is manifesting with certain people by their ‘connection to the world in general’ or their ‘connection’ to ‘greater world’ or world at large, seen in the horoscope with the Vernal Point. In other words: something astrologically seen on a large world scale.

With my early observations for the Vernal Point in Mundane Astrology and Sidereal Mundane Astrology, I think Witte’s system of the Vernal Point may also be applied with Mundane Charts. I do not have Witte’s original writings on the 0 Aries Point (Vernal Point) with Natal Charts but Hand says Witte placed more emphasis on the Vernal Point with the Ascendant-Descendant axis of a chart, and so far, this is what I am seeing in a very limited number reflected with Mundane and SMA Charts. If you stop and think about it—the only time we see the primary angles of a horoscope perfectly squared the horoscope circle is when the Vernal Point partile conjuncts the Ascendant or Descendant. I will offer some mundane chart links to illustrate visually this ‘squaring of the circle’ with important events which occurred with the “World at Large.” I think it very important to note we don’t necessarily have to see prominent planetary symbolism associate with the following mundane chart angles continued in next post.

SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by SteveS » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:30 am

continued from last post

1: 1776 Capsolar in Philadelphia, the Master Chart of the Year!
https://imgur.com/a/xwaoJCl
Vernal Point (SVP) partile cnj 1776 Capsolar’s Asc. * Note: In this case Mundo Moon 00,09 cnj Asc, could be read with hindsight ‘we the people’ with Declaration of Independence originating in the year 1776.

2: DC’s 1969 Capsolar with the Moon Landing.
https://imgur.com/a/xwaoJCl
Vernal Point (SVP) partile cnj DC’s 1969 Capsolar’s Asc. No significant angular planetary symbolism associated with the Capsolar angles except the Vernal Point. But, on the day of the Moon Landing there was an exact cnj of Jupiter-Uranus partile 180 the SVP and Dsc of DC,s 1969 Capsolar.

3: Boyd’s Declaration of War Chart by the 2nd Continental Congress, July 6th, 1775 11:00 AM LMT:
https://imgur.com/a/njy427P
Vernal Point (SVP) partile cnj Asc. * Note: In this case we see a 4,08 cnj of Mars-Saturn with a Mars/Saturn = Asc, excellent symbolism for blood-letting with a war.

4: Here is an interesting CapQ Chart for Tokyo when the first atomic bomb was dropped in Japan:
https://imgur.com/a/S7PqdsB
Note: No partile planetary symbolism on the angles of this chart except Vernal Point (SVP) partile cnj Asc.

*Since the atomic bomb was not dropped on Tokyo—but Hiroshima, it was first reported to Tokyo the enemy (USA) Aug 6th, 1945 had dropped ‘parachute’s bombs on Japan. There was so much immediate widespread devastation it took a few days before the officials of Tokyo realizes the extent of devastation. Below is the CapQ a few days after the atomic bomb was dropped with the full conscious devastation by the government of Japan.
https://imgur.com/a/1npSswj
Now, we clearly see the symbolic devastating damage which entered the consciousness of Japan’s government, with an angular partile T-SQUARE of Mars-Saturn-Neptune!

We can see here with these above examples, the Vernal Point (SVP) partile cnj the Asc of an important Mundane (Sidereal) Chart could be symbolizing a ‘World at Large’ event, although very rarely when taking the whole of modern history into context.

* With a Sidereal zodiac chart, I think another simple way we can identify when the Vernal Point (SVP) partile cnj the Asc of an important Mundane Chart is by visually seeing on the chart when the East Point-West Point (Solarfire’s Eq-Ed) are partile cnj the Asc-Dsc axis.

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:24 am

The Vernal Point has long been used as a Sidereal Age-indicator. I hadn't thought of it as a Solar Node, which would attribute the effect of the Sidereal Ages to the Sun, rather than the Earth. Interesting!

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:55 am

david starling wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:24 am
The Vernal Point has long been used as a Sidereal Age-indicator. I hadn't thought of it as a Solar Node, which would attribute the effect of the Sidereal Ages to the Sun, rather than the Earth. Interesting!
Solar node? Usually (though not necessarily) "node" is used to mark the intersection of a planet or moon's orbital plane's intersection with the ecliptic. The ecliptic part of that is the plane of Earth's orbit around the Sun (or, as it appears geocentrically, the solar part). Sun, of course, can't intersect its own orbital plane.

The plane intersecting the ecliptic in this case is Earth's equator. If anything, it is more of an Earth node. In fact, the Vernal Point doesn't exist outside the framework of Earth (one might even say it doesn't exist except on the surface of Earth). The symbolism is more of an Earth expression than a solar one, don't you think?

And this, BTW, is exactly how Uranian astrologers use it (under the name "Aries Point"): It is treated as a connection to "the world," and they use it that way in aspects in midpoints. For example, I have Ju = Ur = Ve/VP, Ve = Ma/VP, As = MC = Mo/VP
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:07 am

Yes, it's not properly what's referred to as a "node", which is an orbital intersection. I think the question is about Geocentrism. For example, the Ecliptic is referred to as "the APPARENT path of the Sun". And, the Ages are known as "Earth's" Ages, which is how I've been referring to them. The Lunar Nodes are where the Moon's orbit intersects the Ecliptic as Earth's orbit. And, is the Ascendant a moving point in recognition of Earth's rotation, or a stationary intersection of the Sun's path with a fixed horizon? It's that dual nature of the Ecliptic which begs the question, how much of the Heliocentric model should be used in interpretations within our Geocentric astrology? I agree then--even though the VP is marked by the Sun as it moves along its path from a Geocentric perspective, it's still of a Terrestrial nature.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:43 am

david starling wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:07 am
For example, the Ecliptic is referred to as "the APPARENT path of the Sun"
Yes, but that's a very casual, popular definition. It's actually the circle formed by the intersection of the celestial sphere with a plane defining the Earth-Sun orbit.
And, the Ages are known as "Earth's" Ages, which is how I've been referring to them.
That's certainly not standard. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever encountered it before. For half a century I only recall them being called "the Ages" or "the Astrological Ages."
And, is the Ascendant a moving point in recognition of Earth's rotation, or a stationary intersection of the Sun's path with a fixed horizon?
LOL, well obviously it moves. It's simply one of the two intersections, at a given moment, of the horizon with the ecliptic. (It's actually the horizon that is rotating.)
It's that dual nature of the Ecliptic which begs the question, how much of the Heliocentric model should be used in interpretations within our Geocentric astrology?
Always a valid question, and there has been limited indication of a possible impact, at least for specialized purposes; but, in general, it seems that the answer is "very little."
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:26 pm

Much has been written about the Ages, and the term "Ages of Earth" is frequently used. That's because they're considered the result of Earth's "wobble" as it rotates. But, it stand to reason that if the VP is terrestrial, and is the standard Sidereal Age-indicator (for those who believe in the Astrological Ages), they would be accorded to Earth. Which would make the Earth itself an Astrological Planet, instead of just our viewing location.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:38 pm

david starling wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:26 pm
...Which would make the Earth itself an Astrological Planet, instead of just our viewing location.
Not as long as we're on it.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:00 pm

Well, I personally see the VP as representing Earth's Astrological effect in the Sidereal chart, since the Earth is by definition stationary in Geocentric coordinates.

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:53 pm

Jim, have you totally rejected the concept of Astrological Ages? Just asking. :D

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:11 am

Not at all. Otoh we also don't have enough evidence to be comfirtably certain that they exist outside our fancy and, when you get down to it, they aren't very useful in a practical way.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:37 pm

I took Cyril Fagan's objections to them seriously, and came up with something that would explain them and still keep the Aquarian Age viable. Doubt he would would have accepted it though, because it requires a new construction (he was basically a Traditionalist). Obviously, I feel the Ages at work in a real way.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:59 pm

We can sort it all out after 2376 AD.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:23 pm

Fifth-degree cusp has already been reached, and Pisces is giving way easily. Although, this current world situation is definitely not what the Aquarian Age has in store for us once it becomes truly effective. It's all about the wave of the Future.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:33 pm

Sidereal signs have no cusp effect. Sharp to the second or better, instant flip-over.

The instantaneous flip of ingresses in contrast to the gradual rise of return charts is one of the clearer marks of this, among many. In any case, a planet at 00 00 01 Pisces has not a whit of Aquarius in it.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:40 pm

I hadn't heard of that. Is this a personal theory, or a generally accepted one?

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Marduk
Posts: 8931
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:56 pm

It was universally accepted by Sidereal Astrology's founders that signs have a no-bleed crisp boundary.

You may want to read my Astrological Structures thread in the Misc. on Natal Astrology forum.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

david starling
Satellite Member
Satellite Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 pm
Gender:

Re: The Synectic Vernal Point and Sidereal Mundane Astrology

Post by david starling » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:13 pm

Thanks. I'll check it out!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest