Pluto in Sagittarius

Q&A and discussion on outer planet sign transits, current aspects, and their impact on mass behavior.
Post Reply
User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 10:01 pm

Here are the dates Pluto was in Sagittarius one orbit ago. (Times are in UT.)
Entered Sagittarius: Jan 2 1758, 6:17 AM
Entered Scorpio: Jun 26 1758, 7:14 AM
Entered Sagittarius: Nov 2 1758, 11:48 PM
Entered Capricorn: Jan 28 1773, 5:37 PM
Entered Sagittarius: Jul 27 1773, 8:26 PM
Entered Capricorn: Dec 5 1773 NS, 1:38 AM
In brief:
Jan 2 - Jun 26 1758
Nov 2 1758 - Jan 28 1773
Jul 27 - Dec 5 1773
Any history buffs want to give an analysis of those years and a projection of what lies ahead of us between now and 2021?
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Pluto in Sagittarius - Music

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 10:02 pm

In music, the past pass of Pluto in Sagittarius was a time of elegance and the flourishing of genius.

There have been other similar stretches of years - but not many. In the 15 years of the last passage, the second generation of Bach's were still evident, Haydn was at the top of his mark, Handel was coming on strong with the first American and German performances of "The Messiah" (arguably the best known grand piece of classical music in the Western world), and Mozart was arising from infancy and establishing himself with touring and composition.

Beethoven at least was born! <g>
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Pluto in Sagittarius - science

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 10:02 pm

I am loathe to speculate too widely on what the scientific and learning trends of 1758-1773 can tell us about Pluto in Sagittarius for the 21st Century, but a few prudent observations might be permissible.

One trend - but this mostly in Austria - seems to have been very substantial investment in education. Was this more than in other similar 15-year periods? I can't really tell. I do find, though, the founding of the Bavarian Academy of Science (1759), the first British school for the deaf and dumb opened by Braidwood in Edinburgh (1760), establishment of village schools in Prussia by Frederick the Great (1763), and Maria Theresa and Joseph II introduced educational reforms in Austria (1767) and then specifically reformed elementary school education (1770).

There appear to have been very substantial advances in energy production, which is certainly a big issue today; but I think the real issue while Pluto was in Sagittarius was far-reaching travel and exploration, imperialism and exploitation, and the support of commerce through greater energy production. One name dominates this area during this time: James Cook, who sailed on his first circumnavigation of the globe from 1768-71, and a second trip from 1772-75. I suspect he was supported by the first issue of the Nautical Almanac by Astronomer Royal Nevill Maskelyne in 1767. Science supporting more industrial power and laying the foundation for broader and faster travel centered around steam: Watt laid the groundwork by inventing the condenser in 1764, then Cugnot constructed the first steam road carriage in 1769. Science was also learning a lot about this new fangled thing called electricity: Joseph Priestly's "The History & Present State of Electricity" was published in 1767, the first lightning conductors were placed on high buildings in 1769, and Galvani (who gave his name to the galvanometer) discovered the electrical nature of nerve impulses in 1771.

This may give some clues to the progress that can be expected from Pluto's transit of Sagittarius this time around. I also anticipate (but this doesn't take any astrological insight, and it's a safe bet) very substantial advances in genetic science, discoveries leaping over each other so rapidly that the field refines itself every few years over the next decade and a half. Sagittarius represents the process of evolution, the maturation from beast to humanity, and genetic science arises naturally from this symbol.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Pluto in Sagittarius - politics

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 10:03 pm

In examining the flow of political history during the last pass of Pluto through Sagittarius, I admit I was pretty surprised!

I expected to find a time when imperialism, unbalanced elitism, and chauvinistic government took a smack-down. The truth is quite the opposite! At present, Pluto seems to have worked as a dramatic intensification of Sagittarian themes. While it did lay the foundation for rebellion later, it was a time when governmental imperialism, class elitism, and abusive taxation.

In the United States, it reached from the French & Indian War (which was part of the larger Seven Years' War that probably should have been called World War I) to just before the Boston Tea Party. Here are some particular examples of what was happening:

BRITAIN: The French & Indian War gave Britain Canada, thus greatly expanding its land holdings in North America. Throughout the time, British control of India was expanding and their grip strengthening (including the First Mysore War 1767-69). George III came to the throne in 1760 (and we know where that led!). England captured Martinique, Grenada, Havana, and Manila in 1762. It continued to expand and attempt to tighten its economic and other controls over the American colonies.

AMERICAN COLONIES: Immediately after the French & Indian War, the British Sugar Act of 1764 taxed the American colonies for sugar. In 1765 Britain passed the Stamp Act for the specific purpose of taxing the American colonies (nine colonies drew up a declaration of rights and liberties that summer in opposition to the act, and it was repealed the following year). In 1767 England taxed the colonies on imports of tea, glass, paper, and dyestuffs (Boston portested). The New York colonial assembly refused to support the quartering of British troops and was suspended. In 1769 a privy council in London decided to retain the tea duty in the colonies; and the Virignia assembly protested against colonial treason trials held in Westminster, and was dissolved for this. 1770 brought the Boston Massacre, a fight between Boston civilians and British troops; and Britain repealed several duties but kept the one on tea. Two years later, in 1772, the Boston Assembly threatened secession and demanded rights for the colonies. Samuel Adams formed his Committees of Correspondence in Massachusettes to take action against England. And in 1773, the Virginia House of burgesses appointed a Provincial Committee of Correspondence and the Boston Tea Party was held on December 16, just 11 days after Pluto left left Sagittarius for Capricorn. (Enough is enough!) [NOTE: The Caplunar for the Boston Tea Party occurred about a day before the event and, of course, had an exactly Moon-Pluto conjunction at 0° Capricorn - part of a Grand Trine with Saturn and Uranus. For Boston, the Caplunar had Uranus on the Eastpoint.]

FRANCE, RUSSIA, & AUSTRIA: Various forms of territorial expansionism.

VATICAN vs. JESUITS: Beginning with the Jesuit suppresion in France in 1764, their gradual banning across Europe and eventual dissolution by Pope Clement XIV in 1773 was one of the ongoing suppressions of the time. (They were later restored provisionally in 1782 under Pope Pius VI, and universally in 1814 under Pius VII.)
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 10:03 pm

mquellas wrote:I think it would be useful if you would give a little general information on two core parts of mundane planet in constellation interpretations:
1) What does Pluto represent in mundane astrology?
2) What does Sagittarius (or any other constellation) represent? Are you taking a constellational meaning from the Aries = First House basis, as most Tropical astrologers do? Or are you working from a different model?

Personally, I recall using the outer planet transits through the constellations (Sidereal/SZ) compared to through the Signs (Tropical/TZ) back in the early '70's when I made my zodiacal "switch". I was trying to determine if the different timing, SZ being of course much later than TZ, was more appropriate to changes in mass consciousness. As far as I was concerned, my results with this comparison was just another nail in the coffin for the TZ.

Sidereally yours,
Matthew

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 10:04 pm

mquellas wrote:I think it would be useful if you would give a little general information on two core parts of mundane planet in constellation interpretations:
1) What does Pluto represent in mundane astrology?
2) What does Sagittarius (or any other constellation) represent? Are you taking a constellational meaning from the Aries = First House basis, as most Tropical astrologers do? Or are you working from a different model?

Fair 'nuff.

Pluto in mundane astrology means pretty much what it means in natal astrology - just on a larger scope. As "the exception to every rule, that which is singled out from the norm," it represents that which beats the odds and blows away arbitrary expectation. It is eccentric, extreme, separating, disruptive, etc.

I see two primary characteristics of Pluto in mundane astrology contexts. One is simply its tendency to intensify - in combination with other planets, it draws out the extreme, intense, hyper-accentuated (I would also use the word "purified," hoping it doesn't confuse too much) side of what it aspects.

The other side is that it is revolutionary! It is radical, uproots, opens and closes doors on stages or eras.

As some of my remarks above probably already make clear, I was hoping for clues that the latter theme would be most visible in looking at Pluto in Sagittarius - that we would see uprisings against elitism, overthrow of imperialism, etc. I think that isn't likely to be the case though, going by history. It seems the "hyper-intensification" element has been more at play in the past.

As for what are Sagittarius themes - I suggest looking at the constellations section of this forum, but especially the Sun-in-Sagittarius section at http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7#p23 to extract the main themes of the constellation Sagittarius. (No, it isn't a house-based model, you stinker. <g>)
Personally, I recall using the outer planet transits through the constellations (Sidereal/SZ) compared to through the Signs (Tropical/TZ) back in the early '70's when I made my zodiacal "switch". I was trying to determine if the different timing, SZ being of course much later than TZ, was more appropriate to changes in mass consciousness. As far as I was concerned, my results with this comparison was just another nail in the coffin for the TZ.
My experience also.

I don't think one needs more than the current passage of Neptune through Capricorn. Surely no key idea fits this better than "security foundation challenged," i.e., "insecurity." And from nearly the beginning of that passage, security has been the primary theme of our lives - whether it is the constant fear-mongering from a White House that has ruled through terror for six years, or the computer industry where "security issues" (viruses etc.) have ballooned and become a main feature of computer use, or whatever - "security" as a theme (meaning, insecurity as a reality) has become most people's day-to-day baseline.

It was certainly much easier for The Powers That Be to force aggressive militarism while Pluto stayed in Scorpio. It first left Scorpio for Sagittarius in the last days of December 2005, and I circulated a prediction that the whole framework of how the world looked would be changed by New Years. In fact, January 2006 marked the first huge cracks in the W. machine. It has been fascinating to watch how public opinion has adjusted as Pluto first settled into Sagittarius, then returned to Scorpio from July until late October (just before the mid-term elections, then came back to stay. (I correctly predicted the general trend of the 2006 elections solely on the fact that Pluto would go back into Sagittarius just before they occurred.)

I've been hoping for a multi-faceted ideological revolution as Uranus enters Pisces fully in 2010 and begins to square that Sagittarian Pluto. I don't know if I'll get my wish on that, but a boy hasta have a dream, eh?
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 10:04 pm

By the way, if anyone wants to take this back further, here are the dates Pluto was in Sagittarius two orbits ago. Dates are Old Style (Julian) calendar.
Jan 5 - May 23 1510
Nov 6 1510 - Jan 29 1525
Jun 26 - Dec 6 1525
Music did not then have a comparable period to that of the 18th Century. But there were some striking - literally revolutionary! - developments in the areas of religion and philosophy. It was the time of Luther, Erasmus, Spinoza, and More, for example. The de Medici's owned the papacy, and Machiavelli was a rising star. Martin Luther's posting of 95 proclamations in 1517 started the Protestant Reformation in Germany (and he was excommunicated as a heretic in 1520). Ignatius Loyola began to formulate his Exercitiae in 1521. The Bible began to appear in more languages, making it more accessible to the people, including the polyglot Bible published at Alcala in 1522.

In politics, 1510 was a year after King Henry VIII ascended the throne, and he dominates this entire period. Europe was in its usual state of flux and intrigue, but Henry's rule is the outstanding mark of the time. 1518 was a critical year when Cardinal Wolsey negotiated the Peace of London (between England, France, the Vatican, Spain, and the Holy Roman Empire).

Science in the 16th Century wasn't what it was even in the 18th, to be sure - but some fascinating themes emerge that may be relevant today. At the beginning of this period there were early efforts to license physicians to increase accountability. Da Vinci invented the prototype of the water turbine in 1510. Copernicus articulated the heliocentric model in 1512. Ponce de Leon discovered Florida in 1514 and persisted in seeking the Fountain of Youth. Exploration was erupting all over, both of the New World in general and with excusions such as Magellan's (cf. Magellan's initial circumnavigation of the globe with Cook's journeys two and a half centuries later). Durer designed a military flying machine in 1522.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Danica
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:19 pm

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Danica » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:31 pm

(sharing some thoughts on this, fwiw)

From the perspective of the Archetypal images, Pluto in Sag depicts a culmination, highest-point-of-development of a certain cultural direction/trend (initiated during the previous Pluto-in-Aries phase, or Pluto-in Gemini, I speculate...i.e. the main characteristic 'flavor' of which has been set at that time...), to be followed by the Renewal-of-current depicted by the Fish-tailed Goat, the Wild-and-Primal-energy-unleashed of the Pan archetype (which then to be followed by the Aquarius archetype, etc).

And it is very amusing how this time around there are both Saturn and Jupiter coming to join Pluto, on its way out of Sag, at the end of the current sing-phase cycle! - visiting, as for a brief dance and kiss, coming in and out of orb to Pluto, which swirls in (what we see as-) its motion back-and-forth through the final few degrees of Sag.
Amate Se Mutuo Cum Corda Ardentia

SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by SteveS » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:33 am

Danica wrote:
From the perspective of the Archetypal images, Pluto in Sag depicts a culmination, highest-point-of-development of a certain cultural direction/trend....
IMO, a certainly the way i interpret the angles of the Boyd Chart. :(

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:40 am

I certainly hope this isn't the highest-point-of-development of any major trend in our culture. :(

Theoretically, I can't see why Sagittarius would be the apex or culmination of a zodiacal cycle. I do see, though, that it is a tension, struggle, and transformation of our ideas about "highest," "highness," etc.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by SteveS » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:25 am

Thank the Solar System and its mechanics for Jupiter doing its dance with Saturn-Pluto, or it would really be bad financially, imo.

User avatar
Danica
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:19 pm

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Danica » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:45 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:40 am
I certainly hope this isn't the highest-point-of-development of any major trend in our culture. :(

Theoretically, I can't see why Sagittarius would be the apex or culmination of a zodiacal cycle. I do see, though, that it is a tension, struggle, and transformation of our ideas about "highest," "highness," etc.
Not a culmination of the cycle of the Zodiac as such (due to it having no beginning nor end, as such - although I do love to consider Taurus as the first sign), but a culmination of a certain trend that's been set in motion/initiated during Pl's immediate-previous passage through Aries or Gemini (- i.e., this is a reference-point that I speculate makes sense, in purely zodiacal framework); or, we can observe it in reference to the planetary cycles and consider the Sag passage a culmination (higher-higher-till a saturation point, and a reversal/turn, so that the renewal of the system can ensue) of whatever was initiated with the last kissing-and-glancing that Pluto has had :) - with Neptune, and then inside that with Uranus..

If we observe Pluto as representing the collective Authenticity needs, the dynamic of their development over time is reflected in the passage through the sequence of the constellation-archetypes, and the aspect inter-connections that take place during this dance trigger various streams-of-patternings in the "lower" (more close to the surface of usual awareness, and more dense) realms, i.e. various things get conceived! :)
Amate Se Mutuo Cum Corda Ardentia

User avatar
Danica
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:19 pm

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Danica » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:05 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:40 am
I certainly hope this isn't the highest-point-of-development of any major trend in our culture. :(

Theoretically, I can't see why Sagittarius would be the apex or culmination of a zodiacal cycle. I do see, though, that it is a tension, struggle, and transformation of our ideas about "highest," "highness," etc.
Jim, your Sag Mars is in the context of Aquarius Moon - which tends to expand the singularity of a star into vast sky filled with stars :)
the Arrow of Sag, the way I see it, in this regard, represents the development in a certain single, and not necessarily all-encompassing, nor an-absolute-highest-and-best, given direction (a quality, a flavor; an Idea; a global trend); at one point, whatever it is the system reaches its saturation and "tipping point" of a kind, which by default, by nature of things, sets the conditions for a reversal/renewal (i.e. the Persephone and Hades myth depict this phase of the process, from the perspective of Y'sod/the subconsciousness; her peculiar existence 'attracts'/invites :) Hades to come and conjoin with her, so that a new cycle is set in motion, a new Order established... i.e. a new distribution of forces, a new balance and level of integration between the worlds).
... now thinking of it, the Arrow, when it hits the target, the motion leading to there has stopped - till a disunion of arrow and target again, so the arrow can be set to fly again, etc...
Amate Se Mutuo Cum Corda Ardentia

User avatar
Danica
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:19 pm

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Danica » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:55 pm

the development in a certain single, and not necessarily all-encompassing, nor an-absolute-highest-and-best, given direction (a quality, a flavor; an Idea; a global trend); at one point, whatever it is the system reaches its saturation and "tipping point" of a kind, which by default, by nature of things, sets the conditions for a reversal/renewal (i.e. the Persephone and Hades myth depict this phase of the process, from the perspective of Y'sod/the subconsciousness; her peculiar existence 'attracts'/invites :) Hades to come and conjoin with her, so that a new cycle is set in motion, a new Order established... i.e. a new distribution of forces, a new balance and level of integration between the worlds).
This myth of Persephone and Hades provides us here, I think, with some interesting and valuable (symbolic) details regarding the inner mechanisms of this process:

What Persephone does is: she looks at the Narcissus : a being of beauty and perfection but engaged into admiring its own self, engaged in a closed loop of basically, isolation from the rest of the system, not interacting with the Thou and Unknown of others around ( - the whole point of being an individual, separate, being!) but keeping the energy locked into the limited sphere of own personal existence)

- i.e. she herself witnesses the Narcissus - she's the healthy and pure manifestation of what the Narcissus represents the dark/unbalanced aspect ( - and which also has its function, serves, essentially, to provide the 'grease'/fuel for the fire of the new cycle...): the perfected stage of fullness of manifestation of a given-cycle/something.
Her pureness is reflected particularly in this characteristic openness for experience and the orientation to the Other, instead of self; and as soon as she appears, as-she-is, this is an invisible 'signal' to the force that's polarized to her own nature (the force of Conception, that comes from the deepest-depths..) to come and thus initiate a new cycle.
Amate Se Mutuo Cum Corda Ardentia

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Are You Sirius?
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:08 pm

Danica, I have to admit that you're starting to sound like a Sagittarius :) (Using your description of Sagittarian when describing Jove.) This is all.. quite abstract. No nuts and bolts.

I'm also thrown because there is no Persephone or Pluto connection to Sagittarius on a mythic or symbolic level.

I'd like this thread (and those like it) to reflect concrete interpretations based on historic observations of what has happened. I'm not quite sure what to do with these abstractions other than think that Jove or Alpaca has hacked your account <vbg>.

And today is almost the exact day of Saturn square your Pluto. Quite perplexing.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Danica
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:19 pm

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by Danica » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:46 pm

Feel free to delete all that doesn't belong to the thread's subject!

I went off tangential with the Persephone's story, upon realizing how it applies to this transition period, as such, and provides imagery that I believe may help us navigate to the right direction:
during this time of change, when the old doesn't fit (is apparently falling apart) and the new hasn't emerged yet, it is us ourselves that are creating the forms in which the new will emerge - I think that right now, during 2020 in particular, this creation is taking place; but it's not taking place in the outer - we will not be seeing the New fully starting to take shape in the actual structures and patterns of how we organize our collective life, during this period; it's a process internal to each individual;
the story provides the non-verbal guidance of how to conduct ourselves, to see it through to the other side of this passage in the best possible way: don't be enclosed in the loop of self-admiration (in your activities, and in regards to what you pay attention to, spend time into), look around you; in the most simple simplicity of our hearts (symbolized by the characteristic awareness-of-Beauty and the purity-quality of Persephone), we know that we belong to each other and are aware of the interconnectedness of all life; this aspect of our being is the one that is capable of conceiving the forms that will bring the 'new order' (the new distribution of forces, i.e. Persephone spends half a cycle above, half below - the hyper-polarized worlds of the Inmost and Outmost, the heights and the depths, are integrated anew) which is adequate to our collective development stage/needs at this time.

In practical terms, and in the briefest: we need to become sustainable.
What this exactly means, what it includes and what's the process from here to there - we do not need to know the answers to all of these questions right now; but having the basics properly set, i.e. knowing that this is the core issue, and focusing attention onto resolving it, is the necessary first step.
Amate Se Mutuo Cum Corda Ardentia

SteveS
Irish
Irish
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: Pluto in Sagittarius

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:10 pm

:)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests