Trump's conviction by the Senate

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Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:01 pm

I think the Democrats will win a majority in the House but the Republicans will retain a Senate majority. I also think the House will impeach sometime after it convenes in 2019; and I think the Senate will convict. Astrologically, what surprises me is the delay I foresee – the likeliest time for Trump’s conviction, it seems to me, is the last few days of June, 2019. The 28th is a Friday, but in extraordinary circumstances they would remain in session on the weekend. I haven't narrowed it down more precisely than that.

Bear in mind that Trump has a long-term conjunction from secondary Venus to natal Jupiter, providing him with his notable teflon.

55 days passed between the impeachment of Clinton by the House and the not guilty verdict of the Senate. Some of the gap is explicable by the winter holiday –- Clinton was impeached six days before Christmas. Had the impeachment occurred during an active segment of the calendar the 55-delay would probably have been truncated by, say, two weeks (thus maybe 41 days).

Presuming a 41-day interval between impeachment and conviction (as a first approximate) and a conviction in the last few days of June, this places the impeachment in mid-May. I don’t know why four months would pass between the beginning of the House’s 2019 session and the impeachment, but that’s what the astrology suggests to me.

I’ll post my reasons for the late-June conviction in a future post; I have no reason for the mid-May impeachment, however, except the internal timing of the process described above.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:58 am

I believe this prediction is wrong, though the astrology seem right. I can't conceive of a Senate controlled by the currently existing Republican party convicting Trump by the required two-thirds vote no matter what evidence, unless it is part of an agreed stratagem to elevate Mike Pence. So unless Pence is removed first, and not replaced by an even worse hard-core "conservative", I devoutly don't want it to be true. You say Trump ain't great, and I give you that. He's a loose cannon, but he sometimes does something good for us by luck. President Pence never will. The man has absolutely drunk the Koch brother's Kool-Aid. To the extent he can, Pence will enact a liberal's (or a real conservative's!) worst nightmares. It's bad now, but we aren't quite to Heil Trump in this country. Make him President, and how long until Heil Pence?
Time matters

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:48 am

Clay_Reed wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:01 pm
I’ll post my reasons for the late-June conviction in a future post; I have no reason for the mid-May impeachment, however, except the internal timing of the process described above.
I think the first few months of the new Congress will be taken up setting things to rights again. Only after they have the country back on track will they take up rooting out the cause of the trouble. They'll probably also wait for co-conspiritors to be tried and sentenced.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:31 pm

mikestar13 wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:58 am
You say Trump ain't great
No, I don't -- I say nothing about Trump other than my comment about his progressed Venus to natal Jupiter.

The math is hard for some of what I'll present, since I use a handheld calculator. I'll try to get around to it within a couple days.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by mikestar13 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:05 am

Clay, I did not mean to suggest you personally said anything pro or con about Trump, My intention with "You say Trump..." was to address the fair number of readers who would describe themselves as Trump critics. You have identified yourself as neither a critic nor a supporter of Trump, but present your astrological findings objectively. I apologize for not making that clear.
Time matters

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:49 pm

For several months I've kept meaning to slightly modify my prediction above, changing it from "the last few days of June" to the period June 25 to July 5, 2019, with the crucial period centering on July 4th (when, presumably, the Senate would not be in session due to the holiday).

I still don't feel like doing the calculator math to give exact numbers, but I'll find my notes and list the factors I focussed on, when I get around to it.

Several notes: I derive progressions (primary, secondary, tertiary) via the formulas I described in the September and October 1991 issues of American Astrology magazine; for a quick summary, see page 65 of the latter.

I ignore houses and signs, but of course use angularity (or lack of it).

I use only the lights and the eight planets.

Returns are precession-corrected (or, if you prefer, sidereal).

I do not use the PSSR, but do focus strongly on quotidians (of the birth chart, the solar return, and the lunar return) IF there is a transiting planet on a quotidian angle.

I measure orb by the difference in clock-time between planets hitting angles at a given location, not by ecliptical degrees.

I ignore rulerships (the dumbest thing in astrology).

I use location rather than birthplace, though location is more fluid for the President -- still, Washington DC is the best spot (it's not far, also, from New York, the financial center).

I use the Boyd chart for the USA.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:01 pm

Forgot to mention:

The only aspects I use are conjunctions, oppositions, and parans (very occasionally, squares, with low orbs -- mostly in natal or radical charts, rarely in transits or progressions).

Orbs should be at MOST 4 degrees, preferably less than 1.5ish ....

Above I wrote: "I measure orb by the difference in clock-time between planets hitting angles at a given location, not by ecliptical degrees." Here, I'm referring to "square" parans, i.e. parans formed between the horizon and the meridian. As for "conjunction" and "opposition" parans, this clock-time orb is relevant only if the paran is angular (whereas, for "square" parans, they don't have to be angular). For ordinary non-paran aspects, I use degrees of longitude. (Sorry, but yet another exception: Pluto's conjunctions and oppositions, I think, should be measured in RA not longitude.)

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by SteveS » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:59 am

Clay wrote:
I foresee – the likeliest time for Trump’s conviction, it seems to me, is the last few days of June, 2019.
Clay, right or wrong, I look forward to you going through your astrological thought processes for your astrological prediction for a Trump conviction in late June 2019. I note Trump has a vicious SLR for June 16 2019. Is this June 16 SLR the main chart for your prediction?

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Jambo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:37 pm

Isn't djt's 2019 SR on June 15?

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:54 pm

Jambo wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:37 pm
Isn't djt's 2019 SR on June 15?
Trump will have an SSR (Sidereal Solar Return) on June 14, 2019.
Trump will have an SLR (Sidereal Lunar Return) on June 16, 2019.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by SteveS » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:55 pm

Jambo asked:
Isn't djt's 2019 SR on June 15?
Yes, but his June 16 Sidereal Lunar Return is on June 16 with viscous angular planetary symbolism.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:11 pm

Clay_Reed wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:49 pm
Several notes: I derive progressions (primary, secondary, tertiary) via the formulas I described in the September and October 1991 issues of American Astrology magazine; for a quick summary, see page 65 of the latter.
Most people can't see that issue for anything. Those issues are not exactly widely available.
If you own the copyrights on these articles, perhaps you'd like to re-publish them here.
Returns are precession-corrected (or, if you prefer, sidereal).
Yes, we prefer. :) This site is for the study and growth of Sidereal astrology. (see up at the top of the page where it says exactly that.
I measure orb by the difference in clock-time between planets hitting angles at a given location, not by ecliptical degrees.
Are you using a speculum? Or something else?
I use location rather than birthplace, though location is more fluid for the President -- still, Washington DC is the best spot (it's not far, also, from New York, the financial center).
I tend to prefer location over birthplace as well. I will check birthplace angles, but it's not a given for me.

Thanks for explaining what you do. It helps to know. Sometimes people just surprise us, and then won't answer questions when asked about things that aren't our usual practice (although I suspect your practice is closer to ours). It's really nice to have someone who's willing (and able) to share their methodology.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:22 pm

SteveS wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:55 pm
Jambo asked:
Isn't djt's 2019 SR on June 15?
Yes, but his June 16 Sidereal Lunar Return is on June 16 with viscous angular planetary symbolism.
Yes, the June 16 SLR is quite savage. With Uranus exactly on IC, there is a Mercury-Mars opposite Saturn-Pluto foreground. Only a background Moon-Jupiter conjunction gives it a bit of relief. His Saturn is in the mix as well.

So that gives a bad start to his new year. The new year, though, isn't so bad. His June 15 SSR is certainly the best he's had since he's been in the White House simply because it isn't bad. It's worst feature is Moon square his Mars, which could be simply him making our lives miserable. It's strongest feature is Uranus on Eastpoint, which, as I said, isn't bad. All the rough stuff is background. Once he clears the first four weeks, there is not much in his way.
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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:33 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:59 am
your astrological prediction for a Trump conviction in late June 2019
Please see what I wrote above: "the period June 25 to July 5, 2019, with the crucial period centering on July 4th"

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by SteveS » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:37 am

Clay wrote:
I use the Boyd chart for the USA.
Very interesting Clay. Even if you are off in time with your prediction for ‘conviction by senate’ the 2019 Sidereal Solar Return for the Boyd Chart (see link below) is striking and most interesting. Never in the history of the USA has the senate convicted a Prez on impeachment. But first, the new Congress must impeach Trump. I know this: If the new Congress impeaches Trump, I damn sure would be very interested in Vegas odds for a conviction by Senate. :o

https://imgur.com/a/aaFYDqm

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by SteveS » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:36 am

Clay, I don’t know if you have read Jim’s free book on Sidereal Mundane Astrology, if not, I highly recommend. Below is a link to the June 12 2019 DC Liblunar chart. It’s the most malefic DC Cardinal Lunar Ingress I have ever witness. I find it very interesting this Liblunar is happening very close to your predicted time frame for this topic.

https://imgur.com/a/TMvcNrK

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:00 pm

For many years I wrote the "Tomorrow's News" article every month for American Astrology magazine. I developed my own techniques based upon what did and didn't work, since I wanted to occasionally make correct predictions (and I did -- not at all rarely). I do not use capsolars or caplunars or any ingress charts. I do not think they are meaningful. I don't accept Allen/Bradley's original determination of the fiducial, which I believe was based on bad statistics and wishful thinking (rainfall relative to progressed ingresses? Really?). I think the ancient fiducial was simply the Aldebaran/Antares axis, and Allen/Bradley's arrival at the same conclusion was more luck than anything else. The fiducial is of no interest to me except historically.

On a similar subject, I proposed the only good explanation for traditional sign-rulerships that I've ever read: rulerships were based on a length-of-sunlight to speed-of-planet correlation in the Age of Taurus, with the modern Sun rulership actually a Moon rulership ... because, among things, the Sun defines the whole system and thus should not be included in its schema. Rulerships, in other words, were a function of declination, not longitude. Note: this was in the northern hemisphere.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:32 pm

SteveS wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:37 am
the 2019 Sidereal Solar Return for the Boyd Chart
see the previous Boyd LR for DC. Transiting Mercury/Mars conjunction opposite t. Saturn/Pluto conjunction, foregrounded (or almost, for the latter) in conjunction/opposition to the Boyd Sun, with the Boyd Mars/Saturn rising (Boyd Saturn more or less partile on the ascendant; I haven't done the RA/declination precession-correction and other math necessary to be sure). This is just one detail.

See also the quotidian progression of this LR for t. Saturn/Pluto opposite Boyd Sun on the MH/IC (in mundo, of course), IIRC. Just one more detail.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:03 pm

Clay_Reed wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:32 pm
see the previous Boyd LR for DC. Transiting Mercury/Mars conjunction opposite t. Saturn/Pluto conjunction, foregrounded (or almost, for the latter) in conjunction/opposition to the Boyd Sun, with the Boyd Mars/Saturn rising (Boyd Saturn more or less partile on the ascendant; I haven't done the RA/declination precession-correction and other math necessary to be sure).
I can save you a little legwork. I assume you're using a 15° bound for foreground (I cut it off at 10°), but here's what you've got:

r Saturn on Asc -0°49'
r Mars on Asc +4°00'
t Mercury on MC -8°13'
r Sun on MC -12°39'
t Mars on MC -12°43'
t Saturn on IC -14°08'

t Mars conj. r Sun 0°04' in mundo, 0°05' in eclipto
t Mars-Saturn op. 1°20'
t Saturn op. r Sun 1°25'
t Mercury conj. r Mars 4°13' in mundo
t Mercury-Mars conj. 4°22'
t Mercury conj. r Sun 4°17'

Moon-Pluto sq. 0°25' in mundo, 1°41' in eclipto
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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Clay_Reed » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:57 am

Thank you, Jim. Also, about 18.1 degrees for t. Pluto, meaning about 19 days after the LR simple date for the quotidian transit of Pluto to the LR angle, more or less. Glad to see my partile estimate of r. Saturn's angularity was correct, since it is unlikely I'll ever do the tedious math to check it.

For my rulership theory (mentioned above, and again, as mentioned, I think rulerships are BS) see p. 56 of the March 1992 issue of American Astrology.

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:09 am

Clay_Reed wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:57 am
Glad to see my partile estimate of r. Saturn's angularity was correct, since it is unlikely I'll ever do the tedious math to check it.
Oh, we can make it way easier. We have a spreadsheet that you can set up for a given chart one time and then change one number for ach new chart. You can get it, and see the layers of development, here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1544
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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by SteveS » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:44 am

Thanks Clay. A Siderealist colleague who taught me a-lot of Sidereal Astrology was able to follow all of your articles in America Astrology Mag, and told me he was very impressed with your articles. I wish I had all of your articles where I could study.

Below link is Boyd’s July 9th 2019 SLR located to DC. I see Moon partile SLR MC and Pluto partile SLR East Point, a very potent aspect for a possible ‘stunning/shocking incident. Saturn partile 180 Boyd’s Sun. Thanks for posting this most interesting Topic. Clay, do you still have copies of all your American Astrology articles?

https://imgur.com/a/CwQEuNe

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Gary Noel » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:47 am

Clay_Reed wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:49 pm
For several months I've kept meaning to slightly modify my prediction above, changing it from "the last few days of June" to the period June 25 to July 5, 2019, with the crucial period centering on July 4th (when, presumably, the Senate would not be in session due to the holiday).

I still don't feel like doing the calculator math to give exact numbers, but I'll find my notes and list the factors I focussed on, when I get around to it.

Several notes: I derive progressions (primary, secondary, tertiary) via the formulas I described in the September and October 1991 issues of American Astrology magazine; for a quick summary, see page 65 of the latter.

I ignore houses and signs, but of course use angularity (or lack of it).

I use only the lights and the eight planets.

Returns are precession-corrected (or, if you prefer, sidereal).

I do not use the PSSR, but do focus strongly on quotidians (of the birth chart, the solar return, and the lunar return) IF there is a transiting planet on a quotidian angle.

I measure orb by the difference in clock-time between planets hitting angles at a given location, not by ecliptical degrees.

I ignore rulerships (the dumbest thing in astrology).

I use location rather than birthplace, though location is more fluid for the President -- still, Washington DC is the best spot (it's not far, also, from New York, the financial center).

I use the Boyd chart for the USA.
Hi, Clay. I remember reading an article by you featuring the Boyd chart in the 1983 issue of American Astrology Digest, I think it was. I liked the Boyd chart too until I discovered a letter dated July 6, 1775 written by John Adams that said Congress spent the “whole day” debating the Declaration on Taking Arms (DOTA). If Congress commenced at 9 a.m. as it normally did and approved DOTA at 11 a.m., that could hardly be called a “whole day.” I now prefer a chart created by Wayne Turner, once a regular contributor to this forum. Wayne used July 6, 1775, 4:52 p.m. LMT or if you prefer, 4:47:47 p.m. Local Apparent Time, the official time zone for Philadelphia in 1775. You can read the letter John Adams wrote here:

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?a ... dg001528))

Secretary Charles Thomson kept a record of every important thing that went on in Congress. DOTA was the only resolution Congress dealt with on July 6, the only other item occurring at the end of the session ordering a letter be prepared thanking certain Brits for their support. The debate over DOTA took so long the order of the day, a daily schedule of items for Congress to act upon, was cancelled. You can read Thomson’s record of what happened on July 6 here.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?a ... (jc00254))
All available evidence seems to suggest that DOTA couldn’t possibly have been adopted at 11:00 a.m. What do you think?

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by SteveS » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:25 am

Gary asked:
What do you think?
The actual time for an important national chart has always been a perplexing question among astrologers’ Gary. I certainly understand your link presentation that the 11:00 AM time for the Boyd chart is not right, makes damn good common sense. But I ask myself if this 11:00 AM chart can’t be right—why did Boyd & Brigadier Firebrace (a Siderealist) endorse an 11:00 AM time? Rectification is a very tricky business, something I never have put much stock in, but I have always respected with an open mind the rectifications of other astrologer’s opinions for an accurate timed national chart. There is one thing I know for sure: The Boyd Chart is a Declaration of War Chart declaring a certain Independence. It makes practical sense to me—if we want to use a possible accurate clock time for the Boyd chart, we need to first look at 1941 when USA declared war on Japan and other nations. I took the Boyd time of 11:00 AM and looked closely at Sidereal Astrology’s methodology of Solar Return quotidians for the day of declaring war, and came-up with a big Bingo in my mind the 11:00 AM being spot-on, but with the reservation—rectification is very tricky for the astrologer. My big mental Bingo using the 11:00 AM time certainly does not mean I right the 11:00 AM time is correct.

I never knew Clay used the 11:00 AM time for his work with mundane affairs in USA until AFTER I used my own test for the 11:00 AM. I know this: What few AA articles I have read by Clay has impressed the Hell out of me, and I wish I had all his articles for a serious personal study, being able to ask Clay questions about things I did not clearly understand about his work. I have not looked a Wayne’s 4:52 LMT, but I will seriously look at for the year 1941 using USA Declaration of War on Japan using certain Principles (Charts) for Sidereal Astrology. Gary, please present your beliefs using Wayne’s rectified time for certain events in USA. This is what a forum is all about—learning from others, and is certainly how I have learned much with Jim’s forum. It’s the only Sidereal Astrology forum in existence. :)

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Re: Trump's conviction by the Senate

Post by Gary Noel » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:36 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:25 am
Gary asked:
What do you think?
The actual time for an important national chart has always been a perplexing question among astrologers’ Gary. I certainly understand your link presentation that the 11:00 AM time for the Boyd chart is not right, makes damn good common sense. But I ask myself if this 11:00 AM chart can’t be right—why did Boyd & Brigadier Firebrace (a Siderealist) endorse an 11:00 AM time? Rectification is a very tricky business, something I never have put much stock in, but I have always respected with an open mind the rectifications of other astrologer’s opinions for an accurate timed national chart. There is one thing I know for sure: The Boyd Chart is a Declaration of War Chart declaring a certain Independence. It makes practical sense to me—if we want to use a possible accurate clock time for the Boyd chart, we need to first look at 1941 when USA declared war on Japan and other nations. I took the Boyd time of 11:00 AM and looked closely at Sidereal Astrology’s methodology of Solar Return quotidians for the day of declaring war, and came-up with a big Bingo in my mind the 11:00 AM being spot-on, but with the reservation—rectification is very tricky for the astrologer. My big mental Bingo using the 11:00 AM time certainly does not mean I right the 11:00 AM time is correct.

I never knew Clay used the 11:00 AM time for his work with mundane affairs in USA until AFTER I used my own test for the 11:00 AM. I know this: What few AA articles I have read by Clay has impressed the Hell out of me, and I wish I had all his articles for a serious personal study, being able to ask Clay questions about things I did not clearly understand about his work. I have not looked a Wayne’s 4:52 LMT, but I will seriously look at for the year 1941 using USA Declaration of War on Japan using certain Principles (Charts) for Sidereal Astrology. Gary, please present your beliefs using Wayne’s rectified time for certain events in USA. This is what a forum is all about—learning from others, and is certainly how I have learned much with Jim’s forum. It’s the only Sidereal Astrology forum in existence. :)
Steve, you asked me to present my beliefs using July 6, 1775, 4:52 LMT for certain events in the USA. Initially, I was trying to test the belief among some horoscopists that Saturn represents the Dems and Jupiter the GOP. At first, I used a time of 5:25 p.m. LAT and noticed that every time Saturn occupied a Gauquelin plus zone (Gauquelin plus zones often coincide with what siderealists called the foreground) and Jupiter the background in an SSR based on this day and time, Dems made political gains or at least, maintained power and every time Jupiter transited a Gauquelin plus zone and Saturn the background in an SSR based on this day and time, the GOP did the same, results that seemed to confirm the tradition that Jupiter represents the party of Lincoln and Saturn the party of Truman, a belief I adopted in the July 2, 2008 issue of Today’s Astrologer in which just prior to the 2008 election I predicted the Dems would maintain control of Congress and might make significant gains in both houses, a prediction based on Saturn rising and Jupiter occupying a minus zone in the 2008 SSR.

My forecast proved accurate and in the February/March 2010 issue of The Mountain Astrologer, I demonstrated how Saturn and Jupiter worked their political magic from 1952 until 2008. Sometime after this issue hit the newsstands, I heard from Wayne Turner who told me he preferred a time of 4:52 p.m. LMT for the Declaration on Taking Arms (DOTA). I found Wayne’s chart impressive. The two warrior planets, Mars and Jupiter conjoined exactly the angles Midheaven and Descendant respectively. Solar returns based on Wayne’s chart upheld the Jupiter/Republican and Saturn/Democrat tradition, placing Jupiter and Saturn closer to the angles than the 5:25 p.m. chart, the election of 2018 being a prime example. The USA 2018 SSR based on Wayne’s chart featured Saturn separating less than 2 degrees from Midheaven and a journey into a minus zone greatly diminished Jupiter’s influence, a sure indication the Dems would regain some of the political power they had previously lost and of course, by winning a majority in the House of Representatives for the first time in eight years, they did.

The following is a link to an article I wrote for the ISAR Journal several years ago when I was still using 5:25 p.m. for DOTA. After this article was published, I received an email from a well-known tropicalist saying that by using DOTA instead of the Declaration of Independence for a USA chart I was trying to reinvent the wheel.
https://www.isarastrology.com/news/472/ ... -horoscope

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