Feb 20: Poitier, O'Neill, Hearst, Cobain

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Feb 20: Poitier, O'Neill, Hearst, Cobain

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:55 am

Poitier, Sidney. Feb 20, 1927, 9:00 PM EST, Miami, FL (A).
O'Neill, Jennifer. Feb 20, 1948, 1:00 AM BZT2, Rio De Janeiro, Brazil (A).
Patty Hearst. Feb 20, 1954, 6:01 PM PST, San Francisco, CA (AA).
Kurt Cobain. Feb 20, 1967, 7:38 PM PST, Aberdeen, WA (AA).

Two of these people may be of unusual importance in understanding relocation of the natal chart because they moved from their birthplace almost immediately. Sidney Poitier was born in Miami when his parents were visiting, then returned with them to the Bahamas where he was raised (on Cat Island). Jennifer O'Neill was born in Brazil when her parents were visiting, then was raised in New Rochelle, NY and Wilton, CT.
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Re: Feb 20: Patty Hearst

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:52 pm

Patty Hearst

Venus-0-Aquarius Sun-90-Scorpio Mars on the angles. Whew! Charming narcissistic bad girl, fueled with a little moon-60-mars emotional mania, and and weighed down with a Venus-120-Saturn. Another Mercury-90-Jupiter--great for actors to be able to play educated characters. (I assumed she was an actress--I'm too young to remember the Hearst trial story. But I looked it up after I wrote this).

Kurt Cobain

Oh, wow. That's intense. Uranus-Pluto-0-Asc--180--Mercury-Venus-Saturn-0-Dsc . Angular Mercury of course common with commercially successful, legendary musicians, but also expressing all that "grunge" mix of Pluto, Saturn, and Uranus--heavy, strange, authentic, dark, gritty. Oh, and that Mercury-120-Moon,Jupiter-120-Neptune--that's the emotional inspiration plus those artistic illusion-creating skills.

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Re: Feb 20: Kurt Cobain

Post by Danica » Sun May 17, 2020 4:37 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:55 am
Kurt Cobain, February 20, 1967, 7:38 PM PST, Aberdeen, WA
I want to analyze the chart itself, look into what’s there as most prominent factors, the core, without thinking of his bio and what is known about life/person.

Aquarius Sun will give a broad perspective, unique and/or scientific mind with heart that beats for the collective. The Gemini Moon indicates the playful nature, and need for being met/seen by an Another beloved-human in a childlike sharing of the play-of-life experiences, i.e. partnership is very important.
Mars in Libra: what he’s motivated to work and fight for is: Peace-harmony-justice; tied into the Luminary ideas, this fits well with the libertarian Aquarian spirit and the democratizing, Egalite motif of Gemini Moon.

There’s a plethora of planets in the expressivity zone! Five in total, and four of them under 5*; in order of orb:
Ur on AC 25’
Ve on DC 2*28’
Me on DC 3*36’
Sa on DC 4*06’
Pl on AC 9*40’


Aspects:

Sorted (under 1*):
Sun tri Ma 00*00’
Ve tri Ju 51’


The only aspect the Sun has is this partile, precise to the minute of arc, trine with Mars; and the Moon has no aspects.

All other aspects in the chart, under 5*, in sequence of orb and listed by planets, inners to outers:

Me opp Pl 1*19’
Me oct Ma 1*39’
Me opp Ur 4*47’
Ve cnj Sa 2*10’
Ve tri Ne 2*12’
Ve opp Ur 3*18’
Ju tri Ne 1*20’
Ju sex Ur 2*26’
Ju tri Sa 3*02’
Ur sex Ne 1*05’
Ur cnj Pl 3*27’

________________________________________

The picture I get from this:
Uranus, obviously is the overall clearly most dominant voice – it’s only 25’ from angle, and in the chart of Aqu Sun.

Both Me and Ve, as well as Sa, and also Pl, are easy to express (I would imagine an artist, or a scientist (or both, kind of Renaissance man type of person) diligent in their field, working on their beloved projects 12h per day, yet rather easy-going, very charming, and wise, and a true authentic ‘weirdo’ of some kind).

The fact that there are two trines as the strongest aspects (by orb), and also that one of them is precise to the minute and involves the Sun, draws attention – trines tend to structure, compress, sometimes manifesting as suppressing, energy. The Ma-Su is so strong!, yet it’s a trine, and the rest of the chart indicates the opposite of Mars, i.e. prominence of non-Martial themes.
With Ur on angle so sharp, and Gem Moon, and these Mercury aspects, there’s great nervous sensitivity, intense energy currents streaming through the nervous system.
I don’t see this person expressing the Mars side, that affects so much the tone of their core Identity (the whole life – this is the Sun itself! - “the essence of life”), via any usual way that Mars would naturally tend to be expressed (aggression, competitiveness, interest in sport, some kind of excelling in a disciplined physical activity, etc) – this power-needs cluster is coming from the house of the Love for Harmony (is in Libra), and the highly intellectual and freedom-oriented, humanitarian and scientific nature of the Aqu Sun and Gem Moon I imagine: either inventing their own unique way of this Mars-expression that fits no categories we could put it into, yet is a distinctly Martial expression of the Sun; or gradually becoming “beaten down” by life/world/events.

The love-romance-affection nature is refined (Pisces Ve, strongest asp. with Ju – one of the two partile in the chart, then trine with Ne), yet prone to suffering, misery, self-sacrifice and ridden with ongoing struggle between the need to commit (Ve-Sa) and the need to be free (Ve-Ur; and strong Ur overall).
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Re: Feb 20: Patty Hearst & Kurt Cobain

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun May 17, 2020 4:47 pm

Cool!
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The impact of relocation

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:52 pm

Our standard teaching is that, while charts (especially natal charts) relocate as one moves on Earth, one never loses one's natal chart. Is this true?

The rule was determined primarily by observing that people who move, as adults, to new locations still retain the characteristics of planets angular at their birthplace. For example, I'm still a very lunar person despite having not lived (or even been, except for brief visits) where my Moon is angular for nearly half a century. Dozens to hundreds of examples of demonstrated this pattern over the years.

However, there is another possible explanation: It's possible that one only retains the traits of birthplace angular planets because one responded to them and built one's character structure (general way of being) and particular, habitual reactions and behaviors while living under the birthplace chart. Perhaps these are only residual, habituated traits, not continually reinforced innate and invariable traits.

The one way that occurs to me to test this is to examine people who left their birthplace almost immediately at birth and grew up elsewhere. Two such public examples share the February 20 birthday: actors Sidney Poitier and Jennifer O'Neill.

Sidney Poitier
Sidney Poitier was born in Miami when his parents were visiting, then returned with them to the Bahamas where he was raised (on Cat Island).

At birth, he had a single planet foreground: Pluto was 4°55' from Midheaven. On Cat Island, Bahamas (24N27, 75W30), Pluto is 0°32' from MC with Moon 6° from Asc.

It's tempting to say, Yes! - this clearly is a better showing for a figure singled out from his generation for extraordinary talent and accomplishment, especially as an actor. Unfortunately, it doesn't take anything away from the natal chart: His birthplace Pluto remains foreground and became even stronger when his parents went home.

I'm inclined to say, though, that living his entire youth where he was uniquely singled out must have had its impact on him. Relocation served him well the rest of his life; for example, relocate his chart to Los Angeles to see the factors that impinged upon the launching of his film career. Also, in NY he had Pluto on MC almost as close as in the Bahamas (and Moon a little closer).

This was not the clear-cut example I hoped it would be.

Jennifer O'Neill
Jennifer O'Neill was born in Brazil when her parents were visiting, then was raised in New Rochelle, NY and Wilton, CT.

In Rio (her birthplace), O'Neill had Jupiter 1°47' above Asc, Moon 1°18' below Dsc, Moon-Jupiter in 0°09' mundane opposition, and a more widely angular Uranus. It's hard to imagine angular planets more appropriate for an actor (Jupiter) whose Summer of '42 posters made her practically a "pin-up girl" of her time.

Unlike with Poitier, we get a LOT of difference when she moved to New Rochelle. Moon-Jupiter (+Uranus) leave the angles altogether. Pluto is now 2°40' from MC conjunct Saturn 6°16' away. (Wilton, CT is nearly identical.) While this doesn't reflect her eventual form of success as well as her birthplace chart does, do we find Pluto (+Saturn) marks the turns her life took?

My impression is that the birthplace chart shows the type of success and fame, though perhaps would have suggested more of it. (She "became big" for a while, but never gigantic. She had greater persisting success in modelling than in acting, though.)

Perhaps clearest - not a matter of mere degree of a trait, but a quite different set of traits - she had a religious conversion, becoming a born-again Christian. This is quite consistent with Jupiter rising in Sagittarius exactly opposite Moon, and (if anything) inconsistent with culminating Pluto conjunct Saturn.

However, this isn't a clearcut case. I now see I was wrong that she moved immediately. (One reference said her parents were only briefly visiting a relative.) Wikipedia says she didn't move to NY until she was 14. That makes her ill-suited for this particular inquiry: Her character and general habits of response to life were already formed.

A minor aside not related to the present question: With Sagittarius rising, she's especially known as a skilled equestrian.

An other aside: With Moon closely conjunct Descendant (and well-aspected), it's interesting that she's been married nine times.
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Re: The impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:21 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:52 pm
It's possible that one only retains the traits of birthplace angular planets because one responded to them and built one's character structure (general way of being) and particular, habitual reactions and behaviors while living under the birthplace chart. Perhaps these are only residual, habituated traits, not continually reinforced innate and invariable traits.
This would imply also that the natal Angles aren't sensitive to transits (and synastry inter-change) any longer, when one moves; and so for each change of person's location. This doesn't seem to me to be true.

From experience -- my own of 5.5 years of living far away from birth place, and from what is evident in traits and behavior of people I personally know who have permanently relocated during their life -- what I can see is: for however long it may be that someone hasn't been abiding at their birth location, this didn't make the natal chart different, turn the traits shown by it into something else than they are.
(The environmental conditions don't behave in a "forcing" and/or "reinforcing" manner; they may allow for some otherwise non-easily-expressive ergies to be more easily expressed, and the longer one is within a given non-birthplace environment, the more habituated this change in an ergie's ease-of-expressiveness becomes - tending to "tint" thus over time, in one or another specific manner, the development of the peculiar whole of the natal disposition as-it-is.)
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Re: Feb 20: Poitier, O'Neill, Hearst, Cobain

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:46 pm

I agree on all the big points of this. Nonetheless, I've been looking for clear examples for a while so that I'm simply not assuming that's the right answer.

Your point about transits to the angles is especially important.

I disagree on fine points in the last paragraph, but not enough to quibble words. Sometimes, it does often feel that natal planets coming to angles at a new location act more like "permanent transits" at that location more than exactly feeling like new natal characteristics are coming out; except that the "permanent transit" effect does start building new character patterns. Having lived in California so long, where perhaps as many as half the population has migrated from 30-45° eat of here, it's been fascinating for decades to see how planets in the immediate background at birthplace suddenly come to angles and the person starts expressing them in a bigger, clearer way. It's given an astrological explanation for the social phenomenon of people for a century moving west to California (and the rest of the Left Coast more generally) to "find" and actualize "missing pieces of themselves."

I also strongly suspect (but on too little evidence) that mundane aspects at birthplace cease to exist when one relocates except in the specific way discussed above, i.e., one already has entrenched habits, behaviors, reactions, etc. that ne might eventually outgrow. It makes a lot of sense (theory, of course) that mundane aspects would be innately location-anchored.
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Impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:54 pm

An example that immediately comes to mind - from charts I've recently been looking at - is Jim Morrison; his family has been continually moving and relocating during the first 4 years of his life, and he spent the last 8 years of his life residing primarily in Los Angeles --- natal angularity of Jupiter, Pluto, Node is evident throughout (Ju WP 02', Pl DC 1*05', N.No DC 3*40').
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Re: Feb 20: Poitier, O'Neill, Hearst, Cobain

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:58 pm

Do you know when they first moved? I can't seem to find that. I'm only seriously interested in cases where they moved within days or a few weeks (but will take what I can get). Basic behaviors are already forming within weeks. Thats why I hoped Poitier would provided a better example, but he really didn't.
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re: Impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:06 pm

Another example: in your case, I don't see any of the characteristic Venusian traits as prominent in any way.
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Re: relocation impact - Jim Morrison

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:10 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:58 pm
Do you know when they first moved? I can't seem to find that.
I couldn't find any details about this online. (Was looking for more info re his 1947 experience in the desert - but not even for this the exact month is available to be found.)
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Re: re: Impact of relocation

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:15 pm

Danica wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:06 pm
Another example: in your case, I don't see any of the characteristic Venusian traits as prominent in any way.
You didn't know me before: It's a gigantic difference.

Regarding circumstances, my Venus life overwhelmingly changed when I came west. Regarding character, within (say) four or five years of living here I had incorporated a large block of Venus traits and behaviors.

One also has to consider that the Venus (slightly more than 1° from the angle) is my second most angular planet here: Pluto is half a degree from square MC and, in any case, the angular Venus is 0°13' from square Pluto,
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Re: re: Impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:32 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:15 pm
Danica wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:06 pm
Another example: in your case, I don't see any of the characteristic Venusian traits as prominent in any way.
You didn't know me before: It's a gigantic difference.
Being "more Venusian than one was before", and being an exemplar of the Venusian ergie foreground - having it pronounced and directly expressive in an explicit manner, so that it very clearly in a primary way is present in the character and behavior -- are quite different things.
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Re: impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:39 pm

Not exactly satisfying the "moved within days or few weeks" criterion, but for what value you may find in it:
Gene Roddenberry, born August 19, 1921 in El Paso, TX, family moved to L.A. in 1923.
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Re: re: Impact of relocation

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:04 pm

Danica wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:32 pm
Being "more Venusian than one was before", and being an exemplar of the Venusian ergie foreground - having it pronounced and directly expressive in an explicit manner, so that it very clearly in a primary way is present in the character and behavior -- are quite different things.
Did I ever say "exemplar of the Venusian ergie"? That's a pretty high standard.

However, "pronounced and directly expressive in an explicit manner" was exactly the effect.

"Primary way" is tricky because there are so many things in a horoscope that one angular factor (out of one natal and two local angular factors) isn't always going to be the most pronounced. It's pretty rare that anything is more pronounced than the luminary signs, and Virgo-Aquarius luminaries have quite an effect on Venus angularity.

Although Venus angular per se applies really well in this location, perhaps you would see it better if you think of the Venus-Pluto square (as a whole) having the pronounced expression.

Being a bit tongue in cheek, but also serious, for a Virgo with foreground Venus consider Annie Besant, Queen Elizabeth I, H.G. Wells, Heinrich Himmler, Ken Kesey, Margaret Thatcher, Truman Capote, and Bill Bratton.
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Re: impact of relocation

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:34 pm

Danica wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:39 pm
Not exactly satisfying the "moved within days or few weeks" criterion, but for what value you may find in it: Gene Roddenberry, born August 19, 1921 in El Paso, TX, family moved to L.A. in 1923.
This is why this question has never really been addressed. There are almost no good examples. I would expect that within two years significant behavior patterns would be set in.

I've thought for years that this is an area astrology has missed putting reasonable attention: People build habits and patterns of response and behavior based on formative conditions. These will persist even when the original causes are gone - simply because they are habituated. Behavior can change, and might even change with passage of time, but might require the right kind of therapy, or affirmative efforts to take up a new energy available to them - or at least some strong Uranus and Pluto transits!

This is basic to what psychologists know of human behavior and astrologers have almost never looked at it. Persistence is one thing when a cause continues to be present, but is something else when the original cause is removed.

In Roddenberry's case, his genius is tied into such things as his Aquarius Moon conjunct Uranus while Sun is in Leo. Natal angularities mostly bring his Jupiter-Saturn conjunction and, indeed, he grew up to be an effective executive. But the clear addition is that, when he moved to LA, that Moon-Uranus conjunction straddles Midheaven (and Saturn slides to the Nadir). The relocation is more about what he gains than what he loses. The only factor dropping away in LA is the moderately foreground Jupiter, which I don't think he lost - two years into life is surely too late to change behaviors that developmentally trace to initial bottle or nipple feeding. He trades Pluto mundane aspects to his Jupiter-Saturn (birthplace) for Venus mundane aspects to his Jupiter-Saturn (LA). I could argue either way whether he lost the birthplace ones, but do think the ones he acquired in LA fitt his life out here.
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Re: re: Impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:47 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:04 pm

Although Venus angular per se applies really well in this location, perhaps you would see it better if you think of the Venus-Pluto square (as a whole) having the pronounced expression.
I'm aware that it's a Ve-Pl as combo, not Venus by herself, and aware of the rest of your chart. What I do see I have communicated clearly; it comes as an observation from life & experience, and can't turn into something other than what it is by intellectualizations and verbal explanations (my seeing of something is not rooted in "thinking about it in one or another manner" --- the seeing is what it is, and the thinking and verbalization come only afterwards, as means of expression & communication).
I understand that you feel comfortable with perceiving yourself as Venusian; it's not a subject for me to be arguing about, have simply shared what I've observed.
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Re: Feb 20: Poitier, O'Neill, Hearst, Cobain

Post by Veronica » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:59 pm

I reflected on how strong my "nesting" urge came too me when I was full with pregnancy and that biological drive to nest arose out of a very important need to stay put after the trauma of childbirth.
I think possibly that the samples of humans who have been uprooted in the very very early stages of life like it sounds like we need to examine are few and far between because it goes against a mothers intuition to nest down with her newborn and build new habits into her life like nursing and cleaning.
It did make me think for example of that horrible hurricane that caused millions to relocate and how statistically there probably had been new mothers in that population of "environmental refugees. "
It may be more fruitful to find charts of mothers who relocated immediately after a nature disaster....It just seems like your not going to find many because it goes against part of our inner wisdom to not relocate with a newborn as it is very stressful and disturbing and decreases survival rates.

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Re: Feb 20: Poitier, O'Neill, Hearst, Cobain

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:11 pm

Of course, some relocation may come from being orphaned or parental separations or other change of custody. Tracking the mothers wouldnt be much help. The children themselves have to have well documented birth data including times, and need to have reached sufficient eminence that their lives are documented. - It might be more fruitful to follow one of Danica's examples (Morrison) and try to search famous people with military fathers (which usually means frequent moves during childhood). Another possibility is female entertainers who toured extensively and gave birth on the road (then, as soon as they could - days later - continued the tour).
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Impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:05 am

Maybe go to astrodienst and type "nomadic" in search.
I just did this and got:
https://www.astro.com/cgi/sub.cgi?q=nom ... de=gresult

Also:
https://www.astro.com/wiki/astro-databa ... io2dfinn20
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Impact of relocation

Post by Danica » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:47 am

Jim, what also comes to mind is: cases of early childhood adoption, like A.L. (born January 2013) whose adopted parents we both personally know. (From my time spent and interaction with this child, the natal angularity shows unambiguously, very clearly.)
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Re: Impact of relocation

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:18 am

Danica wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:47 am
Jim, what also comes to mind is: cases of early childhood adoption, like A.L. (born January 2013) whose adopted parents we both personally know. (From my time spent and interaction with this child, the natal angularity shows unambiguously, very clearly.)
Yes, those would be great examples when (as in the case I think you're thinking of) the birth data is available and reliable. I'll have to dig that out again - I haven't looked at it since he was less than a year old (and there is a roughly 2,000-mile difference in location).

In any case, this topic should get attention over the next ten to twenty years as cases appear.
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