TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Discussion & announcements concerning Mike's "Time Matters Sidereal Astrology" software, now in development. Keep up on what's happening, download a free copy for use, and give your input on this important project.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:37 am

I will see that is fixed for version 0.4.6. I will get that done today along with a couple of other fixes.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:09 pm

James' Corrected SSR aspects:

Code: Select all

------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects      Other Partile Aspects                          
tMo sq tVe 02°55' 84%   tVe co rSu 00°40' 99%                           
----------------------  tJu sq rSa 00°58' 98% M                         
tMo co rEr 00°13'100%    ----------------------                         
----------------------  rMe co rJu 00°01'100% M                         
rMo sq rVe 02°48' 85% M rJu co rNe 00°46' 99% M                         
rMo sq rUr 00°24'100% M                                                 
rMe co rNe 00°47' 99% M                                                 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:42 pm

Mike, I see several discrepancies below and, since one of them is the orb of the natal Mercury-Neptune mundane square (I get 50'), I suspect you used a different location than I did. Perhaps the birthplace instead of Valparaiso, IN (41N20'23", 87W03'40")? In any case, it uncovered some stuff. (I'll act below as if we used the same location, just in case.)

Why did t Mars-Neptune disappear? Both are angular (unless you are using narrower minor aspect orbs than I am, and Neptune dropped).

Transiting Moon's mundane square to natal Jupiter should be included, right? Both are foreground and, besides, it's transiting Moon in a solar return.

Natal Mercury, Jupiter, and Neptune are all foreground and in close natal aspect, but you don't have most of those aspects in the Class 1 list.

The IOPA list looks significantly different than mine so, again, I suspect we didn't use the same location. For example, you don't have the transiting Pluto square natal Pluto 53' (and now I see the Mercury-Jupiter and Mercury-Neptune that I expected to see foreground).
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:00 pm

Let me check what coordinates I used. The coordinates the program found for me were somewhat different, I've been having connection problems and the data may have been corrupt.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:13 pm

Let me get this straight. Do you only want r to r ecliptical aspects omitted in non-foreground partile, but printed in class 1, etc.?
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:29 pm

mikestar13 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:13 pm
Let me get this straight. Do you only want r to r ecliptical aspects omitted in non-foreground partile, but printed in class 1, etc.?
I think the answer is yes (i.e., if they're foreground). Let me try to detail this:

Natal to natal ecliptical aspects, partile and non-foreground: Exclude (since otherwise they would appear in every single chart).

Natal to natal mundane aspects (closer than the natal ecliptical aspects), partile and non-foreground: These can be included because they are stronger than in the natal (i.e., there is new information). We could do something more complicated, but this was my suggestion to simplify. (It shows something new in the return chart that isn't always there in the natal.)

Natal to natal ecliptical or mundane aspects that are foreground: Show these because they are foreground (just like foreground T-T and T-R).

SSR Moon aspects (ecliptical or mundane) to either natal or SSR planets: Show these regardless of angularity (since Moon aspects are always important in an SSR).



Another way to summarize this: (1) All foreground aspects show (TT, TR, RR). (2) All SSR Moon aspects show, regardless of angularity. (3) In the category of non-foreground ("other") partile aspects, all should show except it's not necessary to show something that will occur unchanged in every return chart for the person ever run, i.e., ecliptical natal-to-natal aspects. For example, there is no need to list my 0°13' Venus-Pluto square and 0°17' Jupiter-Uranus conjunction (both ecliptical) as Other Partile Aspects on every return chart I ever have; but if that Venus-Pluto suddenly became a 0°01' mundane aspect in a particular return, that might be interesting.

Nonetheless, if this is causing too much complexity, I'd say just show the last group rather than compromise anything.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:41 pm

Let's try again:

Code: Select all

------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects      Other Partile Aspects                          
tMo sq tVe 02°55' 84%   rMe co rJu 00°00'100% M                         
----------------------  rJu co rNe 00°46' 99% M                         
tMo co rEr 00°13'100%                                                   
----------------------                                                  
rMo sq rMe 00°50' 99%                                                   
rMo sq rVe 02°53' 84% M                                                 
rMo sq rUr 00°29'100% M                                                 
rMo sq rNe 00°01'100%                                                   
rMe co rNe 00°46' 99% M                                                 
rVe co rUr 01°13' 97%                                                   
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:45 pm

I still don't see t Mars sq. t Neptune 1°41' (with Mars 3°30' above Asc and Neptune 2°29' from square Asc. (Perhaps you are cutting off minor angles at 2°? I think your default is 3°.) Several other things mentioned before.

Here's what I had on released version of 0.4.5 (second patch):

Code: Select all

    Class 1 Aspects      Other Partile Aspects                          
tMo sq tVe 02°26' 89%   tPl sq rPl 00°53' 98% M                         
tMa sq tNe 01°41' 94%    ----------------------                         
----------------------   rMo sq rMe 00°24'100%                          
tMo sq rMe 02°18' 90% M  rMo sq rNe 00°26'100%                          
tMo sq rJu 02°25' 89% M                                                 
tVe co rSu 00°44' 99%                                                   
----------------------                                                  
rMe co rJu 00°08'100% M                                                 
rMe co rNe 00°50' 99%                                                   
rJu co rNe 00°45' 99% M                                                 
I think these are all correct (I might have missed something) except natal Moon-Mercury and Moon-Neptune in the second column are unnecessary. (Maybe I mentioned some other things in the earlier post? It's getting harder to visually compare a calculated chart, a Solar Fire comparison, and three different posts at a time to make sure I didn't miss something. :) )
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:10 pm

Do you have aspects set to 1+FG for solunars? I'm using 2FG. No that isn't it. I don't show rJu foreground, though it's close, maybe I have the birthplace coordinates wrong too?
Last edited by mikestar13 on Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:11 pm

Nope. 2FG. (I just checked.)

Besides, I can look at the chart: Mars is foreground, Neptune is in orb of square Ascendant, and Mars-Neptune are in close orb of an aspect.

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
                           Transiting Planets                           
Mo 20Pi57'42" 03S37 +12°31'  16°08' 02N57 358°27' -45°34'  91°31'  99% F
Su 24Sg07'53" 00S00 + 1°01' 290°45' 22S04 103°27' -18°32'  19°01'  77% F
Me 13Cp08'11" 00S27 + 0°48' 310°43' 18S39  87°51' -31°18'  31°19'  39%  
Ve 23Sg24'01" 04N57 - 0°37' 289°16' 17S16 100°27' -14°26'  14°40'  87% F
Ma 24Sc06'22" 00S14 + 0°43' 258°11' 23S13 124°50' + 2°52' 356°30'  97% F
Ju 07Aq12'44" 00S59 + 0°12' 334°36' 11S36  61°38' -43°45'  47°25'  10%  
Sa 17Cp47'55" 00S50 + 0°07' 315°33' 17S45  83°37' -34°20'  34°30'  34%  
Ur 15Ar48'39" 00S24 - 0°00'  38°34' 14N42 333°36' -29°46' 127°51'  28%  
Ne 25Aq47'24" 01S08 + 0°01' 352°02' 04S40  35°30' -47°50'  62°16'  82% F
Pl 01Cp09'59" 01S44 + 0°02' 298°34' 22S37  99°11' -24°36'  24°53'  50%  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Radical Planets                             
Mo 05Pi35'38" 05S02 +11°55'   2°35' 04S21  20°06' -51°15'  74°34'  48%  
Su 24Sg07'53" 00S00 + 1°01' 290°45' 22S04 103°27' -18°32'  19°01'  77% F
Me 05Sg59'48" 03N07 - 0°12' 271°06' 20S19 114°15' - 3°29'   3°49'  96% F
Ve 15Sc55'32" 01N54 + 1°13' 249°41' 20S13 128°57' +10°16' 346°53'  60%  
Ma 04Li45'25" 01N40 + 0°31' 208°19' 09S51 163°30' +37°15' 290°29'  58%  
Ju 03Sg20'20" 00N19 + 0°13' 268°15' 23S07 118°07' - 3°29'   3°57'  96% F
Sa 20Li07'00" 02N18 + 0°04' 223°23' 14S11 148°25' +28°30' 313°58'  17%  
Ur 17Sc05'53" 00N03 + 0°03' 250°40' 22S12 129°29' + 8°09' 349°30'  73%  
Ne 05Sg09'20" 01N10 + 0°02' 270°13' 22S17 116°14' - 4°13'   4°42'  94% F
Pl 07Li25'44" 16N47 + 0°01' 215°59' 03N28 148°04' +47°36' 295°46'  49%  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects      Other Partile Aspects                          
tMo sq tVe 02°26' 89%   tPl sq rPl 00°53' 98% M                         
tMa sq tNe 01°41' 94%    ----------------------                         
----------------------   rMo sq rMe 00°24'100%                          
tMo sq rMe 02°18' 90% M  rMo sq rNe 00°26'100%                          
tMo sq rJu 02°25' 89% M                                                 
tVe co rSu 00°44' 99%                                                   
----------------------                                                  
rMe co rJu 00°08'100% M                                                 
rMe co rNe 00°50' 99%                                                   
rJu co rNe 00°45' 99% M                                
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:29 pm

That's the bug. rJu is in orb to the Ep-a but version 0.4.6 isn't finding it. I need to compare the 0.4.5++ code and see what I inadvertently changed.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:31 pm

Whew. Thanks. Thought I was losing it. (I do very much feel like I'm losing it today, under enormous stress, so I hope I didn't sound harsh anywhere in this thread.)
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:14 pm

No Jim, just like you were losing it. (Terry was losing it yesterday but she's fine today--in fact we ordered delivery to celebrate--Italian subs and antipasto.)
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:38 pm

Maybe I'm losing it too. I had mis-entered James' birth time and misread the putative SSR's RAMC to boot. Here is the correct SSR:

Code: Select all

------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects      Other Partile Aspects                          
tMo sq tVe 02°26' 89%   tVe sq tEr 00°22'100% M                         
tMa sq tNe 01°41' 94%   tPl sq rPl 00°52' 99% M                         
----------------------                                                  
tMo sq rMe 02°14' 90% M                                                 
tMo sq rJu 02°21' 89% M                                                 
tMo co rEr 00°40' 99%                                                   
tVe co rSu 00°44' 99%                                                   
----------------------                                                  
rMe co rJu 00°07'100% M                                                 
rMe co rNe 00°50' 99%                                                   
rJu co rNe 00°46' 99% M                                                 
rNe sq rEr 02°28' 88% M                                                 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:43 pm

Hey, that looks right :)
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:08 pm

A bug, I think:

I have the JFK assassination saved. When I pull it up with Select Chart > Find Chart and click Calculate, it correctly shows November 22, 1963, 12:30 PM, Dallas, TX, with CST/6 for time zone. - In other words, 18:30 UT.

However, if I go Ingresses > Find Chart and retrieve it, the UT comes up as 6:30 AM. It drops the PM somehow.

I think the error is in the Ingresses > Find Chart path. The .dat file has the following (looks like it's calculated and stored correctly):

Code: Select all

    "name": "JFK Assassination",
    "type": "Natal",
    "year": 1963,
    "month": 11,
    "day": 22,
    "style": 1,
    "time": 12.5,
    "location": "Dallas, TX USA",
    "latitude": 32.77638888888889,
    "longitude": -96.79694444444445,
    "zone": "CST",
    "correction": 6.0,
    "notes": "",
    "options": "Default Natal",
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:13 pm

I'll check into that bug. The .dat file saved the time correctly the error must be in the print routine. I will fix.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:16 pm

It seems to be the upload of the .dat file into the form for calculating ingresses.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:47 am

I cannot replicate the error. Playing around with it did expose another error in the print format in cases where the UT is on the next (or previous) day. This only affect display as internally the date is calculated correctly. Error was caused by using == when I should have used =. This error dates back a long time, as I haven't touched this particular routine since Astro 0.1 until today. Still don't understand why you got the error on the JFK assassination chart. It correctly shows 18:30:00 UT on my copy of TMSA 0.4.5++.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:27 am

Mike, this might have been a version conflict or goodness knows what else - I deleted the entire JFK Assassination chart's folder, ran it again, then pulled it up again for ingresses and the problem didn't exist. Sorry I didn't check this first.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:23 pm

Mike, I think I don't know how the "All Selected Ingresses for One Year" works.

I click Ingresses, accept today's date, pick a location, mark all four lunar ingresses. When I click "Forwards," the "All Selected" etc. box becomes available and I check it. (Leave as Temporary.) I click Calculate and, in a moment, see that the charts are complete.

I should have about 52 lunar ingress charts from today forward.

Since they don't open, if I want to pop them up once I can go to the folder and open them all, so I head to the Documents folder > tmsa\charts\temporary\2022. But they're not there. Looking around, I find they are in the 2021 folder and have been calculated from January 13 to December 28, 2021.

Shouldn't the above settings give me the 52 ingresses going forward?

I can go ahead and put in a date a year from now and probably get them, but it seems I must be screwing up somehow. What am I marking or not marking that I should or shouldn't?
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:44 pm

Will check into that when I get home, Jim.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:53 pm

Solunars are correct. Apparently the settings are switched for ingresses only. Fixed.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:56 pm

Thanks. I'm not as dense as I thought. :)

Meanwhile, there is an easy enough work-around.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:01 am

Progress is slow right now as I have several distractions (none problematic but time consuming). I am going to estimate Feb 1 for TMSA 0.4.6, which is the final release of the 0.4 series (excluding bug fixes).
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:12 am

What are the main features of 0.4.6, Mike? Going from memory, there will be some polishing and rounding out of things introduced in 0.4.5, other predictive features including quotidians, and probably the Novien - but not yet the synastry segments. Is that right?
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:05 am

0.4.6 is mainly extending the cosmic state report to bi-wheel charts and implementing mundane midpoints. Certain bugs have been fixed. Version 0.5 will focus on transits, progressions and directions. I will also implement noviens. Synastry will be the focus of version 0.6. My plans are fairly firm but not set in stone. The cosmic state report was a last minute addition but an excellent one.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:17 am

Got it. That totally makes sense as points of version completion. The mundane midpoints will be quite useful - may start a whole new wave of testing and checking some basic things. I'm curious what you have planned for the bi-wheel CS (and can already see where it has promise in later developments).

It's worth thinking back to where things were at the last version (stable release) of 0.3 - just how far things have come in 0.4's sub-versions. The program has blossomed!
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:36 am

Cosmic state will be given separately for transiting and radical planets.
t-t and t-r aspects in strength order for transiting planets.
t-r and r-r in strength order for radical planets.
If midpoints are enabled, P=t-t and P=r-r midpoints for each planet and midpoints for the transiting angles.
Any suggestions for changes?
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:39 am

mikestar13 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:36 am
Cosmic state will be given separately for transiting and radical planets.
t-t and t-r aspects in strength order for transiting planets.
t-r and r-r in strength order for radical planets.
If midpoints are enabled, P=t-t and P=r-r midpoints for each planet and midpoints for the transiting angles.
Any suggestions for changes?
I may have to see it first - still trying to visualize it.

So, first, if I have this right: This is for a fixed bi-wheel, not dynamic transits. It is essentially any two charts at all, yes? (Or perhaps not implemented that way initially but, in principle.) In that case, "T" is "whatever the second chart is.

Will the T-T and T-r be given on separate lines or comingled?

Other than in pure theory, I'm unclear the advantage of repeating this twice, but probably I'll understand when I see it.

Will there be transit planet PVL in the natal framework? (This allows checking whether we're doing this the right way.) All the other stuff like layout of SSR/SLR?
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:55 am

I'm still trying to visualize it myself. Basically "t" and "r" for now but other letters will be used in future versions such as "p", "d", etc. Transiting planets adjusted for accrued precession since the nativity rather than adjusting the natal planets?
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:23 am

mikestar13 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:55 am
Transiting planets adjusted for accrued precession since the nativity rather than adjusting the natal planets?
It always depends on the framework into which you're trying to "insert" it. With return charts, the return is the base chart and the question is "How does the natal fit into this?" so we precess natal to current.

In a static two-wheeler, you should always be able to tell the base chart: It's the one with the angles and cusps, right? So in putting transits around one's natal (measuring proximity to natal angles), you precess the transits back to the natal. (It's all about the angular framework into which you're inserting it.) - I actually expect us to find that only the ecliptical contacts are accurate, but we've never had the way to easily know.

So, in (say) synastry, if A's planets are placed in B's angles/cusps, A is precessed to B. When they flip, the precession goes the other way. This, of course, will produce different results and (if valid at all) will be interesting to notice. (A feels about B differently than B feels about A: That's always been the drama of romance.)

What will be REALLY interesting - where I expect the technique works but won't know until we check - is mundane aspects in synastry. Because of the entirely different cuspal frameworks, A's mundane aspects to B's planets in A's mundane framework will be different than the aspects that exist in B's mundane framework. If these are valid, we enter an almost untouched area of romance. Synastric aspects are so reciprocal that we only really see "one side feels differently than the other" is in Saturn aspects. But, if these mundane aspects are valid, then we have a case where some energy exists (such as a Moon-Venus interchange) only in one person's universe - the aspect doesn't even exist in the other person's reality.

If this happens, we have some exciting new ground to explore.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:07 pm

OK the general rule is to precess to the framework whose angles show on the face of the chart. For a SSR for example, the mundane data for the transiting planets used as is, while the natal planets are precessed to the date and time of the SSR. This is what I have been doing. In synastry, for example, to put Terry's planets in my chart, I would precess them to 1 Apr 1957 and for the converse case, precess my planets to 11 Nov 1961. The bi-wheel chart form handles this automatically. You and I are using the term "base chart" differently: I mean the radical chart (usually a nativity) from which other derived charts (for example a SSR or a NQ) are calculated. So in my terminology, I precess the base chart planets to the derived chart framework.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:15 pm

Oh, right, forget you had "base chart" defined. Yes, I mean the one with the cusps that show.

Yes, the general rule is to precess to the framework that is showing its angles on the drawn chart.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:18 pm

BTW, I'm quite certain there are totally one sided energies in synastry as can happen in relationships: Imagine A desperately attracted to B but B indifferent or even hostile to A--perhaps masking a deeper attraction, perhaps not.
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Re: TMSA 0.4 Preview Release

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:29 pm

mikestar13 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:18 pm
BTW, I'm quite certain there are totally one sided energies in synastry as can happen in relationships: Imagine A desperately attracted to B but B indifferent or even hostile to A--perhaps masking a deeper attraction, perhaps not.
Indeed. But none of the current methods really lay these out (other than, as mentioned, one person's Saturn being cold and indifferent to another person's planets).

I suspect, though, that synastry, like transits, ultimately works in the sense that each person's chart is their own "universe," the boundaries of their psychological awareness and state, so that the impact of another's chart is within that framework. As long as we are only using ecliptical aspects, this makes no difference since every aspect is exactly the same pair of planets, aspect type, and orb from each person's point of view. But if (as is likely so) mundane aspects work equally well, then my planets can make aspects to your planets that only exist within the framework of your angles - your universe - your mundane sphere. Even with my planet involved, I may have no awareness that this even exists. (And, of course, it would work the same way the other way around.)
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