The Novien - Fagan's views

Q&A and discussion on Cyril Fagan's last innovation, The Novien.
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The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:34 pm

A summary of Cyril Fagan's final views on the Novien.

The Hindu Navamsa is identical with the Western "9th Harmonic Chart." The Novien is identical except that it presumes that the zodiac starts at 0° Taurus, rather than 0° Aries. The net effect is that all positions are 120° later in the Novien than in the Navamsa. The idea to shift the starting point to 0° Taurus came from Garth Allen (Donald Bradley), who "suggested that to be consistent the Navamsas, if genuine, should also commence from the beginning of Taurus and not from the beginning of Aries, as is the present custom." Fagan concluded, "Without realizing it, his casual remark led to the unearthing of the long lost kernel of true lunar interpretation, thus adding enormously to the understanding of the effects of the Moon in astrology."

"In novienic charts it is customary to make the Moon's novienic longitude the 'Ascendant' and to arrange the rest of the 'houses' on the equal Division System," Fagan wrote.

He gave examples showing that he found value in interpreting the second and third level Moon-signs (the Novien Moon and Novien-of-Novien Moon). He also showed natal planets about the Novien and interacting with its positons (especially the Moon) with aspects. He indicated (I think imprudently) that the generations of Moon-signs could be used for rectification, pinning down the right sub-sign of Moon as a way of refining Moon's natal longitude.

Seemingly following the Hindu model of whole-sign conjunctions, he wrote that, "Should it [Novien Moon] fall in a sign that is natally occupied by a planet then the native's disposition and way of life will partake of the intrinsic nature of that planet. For instance, should the Novien fall in a sign that holds the natal Jupiter, then the native will be in a perpetual state of good humor, be fun loving, gay and optimistic. But should the sign hold Saturn, then the native will be constantly morose, dispirited, mean, complaining and somewhat antisocial... The reverse of this is likewise significate; namely, when the Novien of a planet interchanges with the natal Moon, or with one o its noviens."

He felt the original purpose, or raison d'etre, of the noviens was to serve as a type of aspectarian. "In all probability this may have been the original and authentic method of determining effective aspects in vogue... and may indicate that existing methods of doing this are false. In short, the birth chart is only intended to show the zodiaical emplacements of the planets... and their positons in the mundane sphere. Whereas the novien is a more intimate and personal chart [emphasis added], depicting the true destiny of the individual by means of the mutual aspects subsisting between the planets, which are frequently not at all apparent in the birth chart."

"The environment of one's own making is... indicated by one's Moon constellation and by its noviens." [He gives examples of this.]

"In matters of sex, particular attention must be paid to the disposition of the Moon and her noviens... Every constellations has its own particular mode of erotic behavior which need not be detailed here but which the astute reader will quickly determine for himself. Here again such behavior is conditioned by the natal Venus and her configurations."

"The humors are likewise denoted by the Moon, her aspects, and her noviens."
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:34 pm

Arena wrote:When I was reading his book the other week, I stumbled upon this and my first thought was: "why did he say 0 Taurus, but not 0 Pisces?" Why do we not use the same degree or sign for the sidereal zodiac when casting the Novien?

If the tropical Navamsha chart uses 0 Aries as the start, why would the sidereal not go by the sign before (and not the sign after), like we are used to?

I am not saying that it should be, I am just asking why?

What I understand from his book is that he sees the Novien chart like the Indians see the D9 Navamsha, mainly as an indicator of the person's life, relationships and partners after age 28/32? From what I understand the sign of the Dsc in the D9 would describe the charachter of the spouse/partners/relationships by looking at the sign opposite to the Moon's sign as the Moon is supposed to be on the ASC in the Novien. It also speaks of the placement of the Moon, Sun and Venus in the D9 chart.

The chart is the division of the 9th house, so it would also indicate 9th house matters in one's life?

I found this online "D9 = Divisional Chart 9. A shorthand for "Nava-Amsha", a sanskrit word meaning "ninth feature/characteristic/facet"

It is supposed to give an indepth view into the 9th bhava(house), which stands for bhagya(fortune), higher-learning. It is also used as a short-cut to judge planetary strengths, taking into account their positions in D9 - stuff like Vargottama etc."

"In Vedic Astrology the Navamsa or 9th Harmonic chart (D9 chart) is said to be a microscopic view of the 9th House and therefore the hidden undercurrent of our fate. It is basically to predict marriage life of the native, spouse and life in later stage (after 32 years)."
(https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-D9-chart)

Why wouldn't we use the D7 chart for marriage and partner?

In my own case I can see that the sign on Dsc (the opposite sign from the Novien's Moon's sign) in the Novien(but not the D9 Navamsha) chart does indeed describe my partner after age 32 (my current partner). It's Virgo.

In his book that I have (POSA), Fagan does not explain very well how he wants to use the Novien chart. He gives some kind of hints that we can use it to assess spouse and even time marriage, but he does not state how (p115 last paragraph).

On page 116 he goes on to say that the most important aspects in the Novien are those to the Moon.
At the bottom of p. 116 he seems to indicate that one could find out the timing of death.

On p. 120 he says God help those children whose parent's or teachers have their Mars configured to the child's Moon ... am I right to assume he is talking about the Novien's Mars and Novien's Moon?

Are there any further articles he published about this that we can find or have posted in here as that chapter about Novien is not sufficient to understand how exactly to use it?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:35 pm

SteveS wrote:Arena wrote:
Fagan does not explain very well how he wants to use the Novien chart. He gives some kind of hints that we can use it to assess spouse and even time marriage, but he does not state how (p115 last paragraph).

Yes, it should be understood Fagan co-authored POSA with Brigadier R.C. Firebrace and this book was only meant to be a “Primer” for Sidereal Astrology. Fagan’s wife Pauline wrote about this book:
It was my husband’s hope that this book could be rewritten and made more comprehensive. But, alas, time ran out for Cyril Fagan before this task had been accomplished.

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:36 pm

Arena wrote:When I was reading his book the other week, I stumbled upon this and my first thought was: "why did he say 0 Taurus, but not 0 Pisces?" Why do we not use the same degree or sign for the sidereal zodiac when casting the Novien?
??? I don't understand: Why would he have said 0° Pisces?
If the tropical Navamsha chart uses 0 Aries as the start, why would the sidereal not go by the sign before (and not the sign after), like we are used to?
The question of "What is the first sign of the zodiac?" is complicated and may not have a single answer. But, the best theoretical answer is the historical answer: In nearly every nation on earth where astrology had (what appear to be) independent origin, the first sign of the zodiac was Taurus.

Aries only gained footing due to the invention of the Tropical zodiac. When astrologers began to think that the vernal equinox as marking the start of things, it was at the start of Aries. Until then, Aries was never thought of as a "first sign."

PS - I wonder if your term "tropical Navamsa chart" is a typo? There has never been a Tropical Navamsa chart except here and there when a modern Tropical astrologer has copied this technique from Hindu astrology.
On page 116 he goes on to say that the most important aspects in the Novien are those to the Moon.
Yes, I haven't finished copying all of the main points from Astrological Origins yet, but this is definitely his position. It has also seemed true to me. The relationship of Moon to the number 9 penetrates through multiple traditions in ancient times, and seems the part of the Navamsa that screams loudest.
Are there any further articles he published about this that we can find or have posted in here as that chapter about Novien is not sufficient to understand how exactly to use it?
Fagan wrote numerous articles in his "Solunars" column in American Astrology near the end of his life. I'm copying the main content from his final book, Astrological Origins, as reflecting his final thoughts and summation on the matter. (I know there is a section in Primer, though that was added a bit earlier; and my copy of Primer is deep in a storage locker somewhere. I think I haven't opened it in 30 years. If I had it at hand I'd end by adding any main points from it that aren't in AO, but the two chapters in AO do represent his final summation.)

I'm adding this thread now for a couple of reasons. One, I think Fagan's thoughts on this should have a place here on Solunars.com. Two, I've been pondering some half-radical thoughts on the subject (thoughts, therefore speculative), and don't want to introduce them without having Fagan's views securely represented.)
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:36 pm

SteveS wrote:Jim wrote:
The relationship of Moon to the number 9 penetrates through multiple traditions in ancient times, and seems the part of the Navamsa that screams loudest.
Indeed, I totally agree! Going by memory from an aged mind, I think Fagan presented good historical evidence the Moon with # 9 originated from Ancient Egypt (AE), and very little true astrological knowledge was taught outside the astrological priesthood of AE—AE was very secretive about their universal knowledges. The best evidence I have seen of numbers being associated with Planets comes from the so-called Magic Squares found in certain materials. You can go to the following link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_square and see numbered symbolism with the Moon is based on the square of 9. I have worked with the so-called magical squares (Sun) with talismans but IMO, the actual knowledge how these squares are to be applied has been lost. But, using my best guess, I would bet they have something very important to do with ‘numbered vibration’. I do know ‘numbered vibration’ was one of the 7 Hermetic Principles originating in our known history with AE.

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:37 pm

Arena wrote:
In short, the birth chart is only intended to show the zodiaical emplacements of the planets... and their positons in the mundane sphere. Whereas the novien is a more intimate and personal chart [emphasis added], depicting the true destiny of the individual by means of the mutual aspects subsisting between the planets, which are frequently not at all apparent in the birth chart.
So now the question needs to be asked. WHY? Why the 9th harmonic and emphasis on that? Did he speak of any other harmonic charts to reveal something in particular like they do in India - or did he only speak about the 9th? And did he or they have a pile of test charts where they show this harmonic chart to be this important?

Now I've noticed other astrologers have said that you should never ever compare different harmonic charts as they do not "speak to each other" in terms of aspects between the two charts (or more). But Fagan seems to want to use the natal and compare to the Novien like you give examples of above.

Not that I wouldn't want to explore the possibility since the Novien Moon of mine has a partile opp. to Jupiter that is not to be seen in the natal chart and I wouldn't mind see being played out in life :)

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:37 pm

Arena wrote:
In short, the birth chart is only intended to show the zodiaical emplacements of the planets... and their positons in the mundane sphere. Whereas the novien is a more intimate and personal chart [emphasis added], depicting the true destiny of the individual by means of the mutual aspects subsisting between the planets, which are frequently not at all apparent in the birth chart.
So now the question needs to be asked. WHY? Why the 9th harmonic and emphasis on that? Did he speak of any other harmonic charts to reveal something in particular like they do in India - or did he only speak about the 9th? And did he or they have a pile of test charts where they show this harmonic chart to be this important?
No others, no. BTW, the term "harmonic chart" didn't exist in his life, but the equivalent he would have had to follow would be the numerous Hindu vargas. The reason he paid attention to it at all is that a Hindu astrologer he regarded as a friend and highly respected, K.H. Kharegat, strongly urged him to give it another look; so he took the question to Donald Bradley, and that's where the Taurus fiducial originated.

The reason for the importance is that, in India, the Navamsa is held in the highest regard, far outstripping all the other vargas put together. It is routinely seen alongside the horoscope as if it's the rest of the horoscope (much as I often do with the mundoscope). In most sectors of astrology in India, the two are regarded as nearly inseparable, but they use it for substantially different purposes and in substantially different ways.

The reason (theoretical reason) it might show that scope of intimacy (his word) is that the Navamsa is regarded as being the more detailed expression of the lunar side of a person - an inner, psychological expression in contrast to the rasi (horoscope) as an expression of the experience of the world. (Hindu astrology is much more eventish with little psychological focus until very modern times, so the lunar aspect would be the deeper one.)
Now I've noticed other astrologers have said that you should never ever compare different harmonic charts as they do not "speak to each other" in terms of aspects between the two charts (or more). But Fagan seems to want to use the natal and compare to the Novien like you give examples of above.
Yes, that's definitely something he says, and that's where it makes a huge difference whether the Navamsa or Novien is the way to go. Notice, btw, that it's pretty smart to say that the two layers "don't speak to each other" unless you have the correct definition of the zodiac, which not even the Hindu systems have. If you displace the natal positions a degree, this throws the Navamsa/Novien off 9° for every planet - no wonder they do aspects by whole signs! Only if the zodiac is accurate to within 6'-7' will a Navamsa/Novien position be accurate to within a degree.

But there is also a question of whether these are legitimate zodiac expressions - real placements - or whether this is just an aspectarian, like a 40° dial. Fagan definitely sided with the idea that these are real placements.
Not that I wouldn't want to explore the possibility since the Novien Moon of mine has a partile opp. to Jupiter that is not to be seen in the natal chart and I wouldn't mind see being played out in life :)
The aspect side of things is where this has been so convincing to me for 40 years. If going any depth into a chart (especially a particular planet), I'll look at all 10°-multiple aspects (just read them off the face of the chart). These seemed solid to me, and then I watched in 1975-76 as skilled Siderealists who made much of their living working astrology booths at fairs would just spot these left and right and zing right into the meat of a topic. So I see your Moon at 25°01' something, and your Jupiter at 4°54' something, and go, "Oh, yeah, a 6' micro-aspect." In the Navamsa/Novien this works out as a 6' x 9 (still partile) Moon-Jupiter opposition.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:38 pm

Danica wrote:an idea for further research:
if Novien is not just an aspectarian, then it should be sensitive to transits! (at least the novienic Moon)

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:38 pm

Cool idea.

Solar Fire won't be much help, though. It doesn't calculate these. I did a test of transits to my Novien Moon and it produced what seemed to be random results. I'll have to spend more time to figure out what it's doing but, in general, SF seems not to store positions that it works against, but to generate them afresh when it is doing calculations like transits, and it doesn't like "mixed framework" interaction.

There's always the manual way :)

Example:
Natal Moon 27°24'00" Aquarius
pseudo-zodiac Moon for calculation fudging 10°44'00" Pisces
Novien Moon 6°36'44' Libra
Calculated transit to Moon: Venus conjunct it November 24, 2015, 4:19 PM PDT

Hmm, if I click "View Chart, it actually shows Venus conjunct Novien Moon. But Venus IS 23°16' Virgo. it shoved the calculations into the pseudo-zodiac (SVP 19°59'23" Pisces) and then ran straight transits, i.e., matched the framework of the chart getting transited.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:39 pm

Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:Could you just cast a chart for the Novien Moon and read the transits from that?

For instance a chart for Novien Moon 6°36'44' Libra in Hollywood CA (I think that's close as I can get on astrodienst) would be Oct 25, 1954 @ 5:38:28 AM. So checking transits to that point, Venus would be partile conjunct the Novien moon on Dec 6th this year.

What did I miss?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:39 pm

Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:Could you just do a chart for the Novien Moon and read the transits from that?

For instance chart for Novien Moon 6°36'44' Libra in Hollywood CA (I think that's close as I can get on astrodienst) would be Oct 25, 1954 @ 5:38:28 AM. So checking transits to that point, Venus would be partile conjunct the Novien moon on Dec 6th this year.
Yeah. Good idea. Force a lunar return to that location and do transits to Moon-only for that.

SF gives a "return" of Moon to that location September 16, 2015, 10:53:26 PST, Limiting for the present purpose to only 4th harmonic aspects, for November I get only Mercury conjunct the Moon on November 2 - hardly marking anything unusual.

Checking Saturn through Pluto transits for 1973 to present doesn't produce, at a quick scan, any hits on days (or even months) of particular note, but these may need closer scrutiny to recognize.

Taking it broadly, Uranus was transiting conjunct that Moon from December '74 to September '75, and that was the period my wife and I were moving toward separation, I uprooted and came to California permanently (but not when the aspect was exact), and ... oh, yeah, final decision to divorce was in September on last pass. Interesting.

The Saturn transits for late '75 to mid-'76 don't ring true. The next Saturn late '82 to fall '83 are a bit more fitting, but hardly dead-on. Pluto's repeated conjunction December ''83 to October '84 should have been something dramatic, decisive, clear cut, and that sort of thing really started in mid-1985, not before. (I took a particular step in my spiritual training in November '84, but time lines of the approach and conclusion don't seem to align with this period - I'll look at diaries for something more specific.)

Saturn again through most of '91, doesn't ring true from memory. Then Uranus early '96 to... OK, here it is, November 18, 1996. That's an EXACT DATE of a very fitting event, a significant relationship rupture arising out of disclosures and revelations that propelled my life into a whole different direction. This is very interesting, especially because it is not wholly different from the Uranus conjunction two decades earlier.

Saturn and Neptune were in tag-team March '98 to March '99. Not a great time, nothing easy to pin down (but LOL that would fit the aspect), arguably a time of general depression and reformulation between life stages.

Saturn again for a single pass July 2005 seems (based on the biggest events of that general time that come to memory) to be a total miss. Two events of major positive tone and outcome happened soon after that and were in the planning stages.

October 2012 had another Saturn. Nothing from memory or diary.

But... this is interesting.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:40 pm

Now, the next thing to check is whether transits to Navamsa Moon (120° earlier) have anything to show when examined this way. There were fewer of them.

Saturn conjunct Moon August '73 to April '74. Possibly arduous in the sense that I was starting college, but mostly this was an opening up of things, meeting my first wife and getting married, and a lot of excitement and "breaking loose." A Uranus time, not a Saturn time.

A single Saturn pass September '80 also was not in a Saturn period. I was working hard, but bringing to a head the Mattel project and getting a large bunch of money. Saturn for working hard, but that would not usually be for a Moon transit. Other things were happening that propelled a big career opportunity soon after.

Neptune opposed Moon repeatedly February '84 to October '85. Hard to assess. Stuff was happening fast and furious in '85, but it doesn't really seem Neptune. I was elected to a board of directors against everyone's expectations, was involved in a corporate election that nearly put me at the head of an international fraternal organization (but a position I didn't want), and then in September took on new levels of management responsibility... crazy, yeah, but not really Neptune events.

Saturn through most of '88, but unless you just take "lots of work" as a key, it misses the tone entirely - things were going very well, emotionally upbeat, and starting to build too major entities that would be of vast importance to me in the years following. (You can find Saturn keywords in all this, but they don't match the tone.)

A brief one-pass Saturn conjunction June '03 (I'd have expected something either a year-plus sooner, or two or three months later), seems a miss.

Pluto... that should be a big one. January to November '09. Have to check the diary to remind myself what year a certain event happened.... no, I had the wrong year in mind. I can't identify anything for this period.

Uranus April '11 to January '12. Nothing in particular. Too early and too late.

Not impressed.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:20 am

One of the tests we previously agreed might be useful to determine whether Novien or Navamsa positions were objective placements (in the same sense as "real planets") was to watch them for major transit. I've been watching transiting conjunctions, oppositions, and squares to them on and off for a couple of years without clear signals - partly because there are always so many different things going on from day to day, and partly because other placements interfered (e.g., my SSR Moon for a year was square my Novien Moon so it was impossible to meaningfully study the transits to Novien Moon).

I've pretty well concluded that Navamsa Moon is not subject to transit - and have no conclusion on Novien Moon yet. I consider nothing conclusive so far.

But I bring it up now because today transiting Saturn opposes my Navamsa Moon exactly. Obviously, I hope it has no value :). If you don't hear from me again, presume there might have been something to it. :twisted: :mrgreen:
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:14 pm

In the March 1970 issue of American Astrology, Cyril Fagan wrote on the birth chart of Earl Bertrand Russell. He displayed the horoscope as an octoscope, and also gave the Novien (or, as he termed it, the "Novienic Equivalent,")

One strangeness is that while he stated Russell's birth data correctly (May 18, 1872, 5:45 PM, Trelleck, Wales, 51N44, 2W43), the resulting birth chart has a 3° error on MC and a 2° error on Ascendant. This doesn't affect the outcome in a serious way, but ephemerides for 1872 were then readily available and, even if Fagan made a simple math error, Bradley was in the editorial chair and should have caught it. The solution is that Fagan specifically gives the birth time (from a biography) in GMT, whereas Wales was on LMT in 1872. I doubt the biographer made a correction for this, so the given time is surely in LMT.

Anyway, it provides an example of Fagan's use of the Novien. I must say that I'm not particularly impressed. (I was an engaged student when I first read this in the early 1970s, but now I think Fagan overstated some things about the Novien that are more easily explained by his much earlier discovery, the mundoscope.) Here is an excerpt:
...in war it is a very stupid error to underestimate the intelligence of the enemy as these German cartoonists [of WW I] learned to their grief.

Earl Bertrand Russell, F.R.S., Order of Merit and Nobel Prize winner, is just such a scion. According to Alan Wood's The Passionate Sceptic [What a title for a book about a Taurus-Virgo! - JAE], this imminent scientist was born on May 18, 1872, Saturday, at 5:45 PM GMT on the banks of the river Wye, Trelleck, Monmouthshire, Wales, latitude 51N44, longitude 2W43. We are indebted to that fine astrologer from Hollywood, California, Ralph Kraum, for this data.

With the Sun in the constellation Taurus in conjunction with Mars, small wonder that the mental drive of Bertrand Russell was so utterly amazing. Even at the ripe age of 97, he still is at it, his pen and tongue being as active as ever; and he scorns those newsmen who describe him as being "senile." The Sun in the 4th watch [Remember, this is an octoscope - JAE] is an earnest of his aristocratic heritage while Jupiter exalted in the constellation Cancer with Uranus in the 3rd watch indicate the multitude of honors that have been accorded to him.
He evidently interpreted Sun in the 4th watch - roughly equivalent to the 8th house - as he historically would have interpreted Sun in the 4th house. It is quite strange, though, to see him attribute Sun in this part of the sky to "aristocratic heritage" when, pretty much his whole career, he would have deemed Sun mid-quadrant as an absence of such dignity.
Of course, much of his great intellect is due to the position of Mercury setting in the 5th watch in the constellation Aries with Neptune and Venus.

Fagan, who also was a Taurus-Virgo, seems strangely to be completely overlooking Earl Russell's Virgo Moon!
The novienic equivalent chart is truly astonishing. The power of this man's intellect is wonderfully indicated by Mercury being in exact square to both of the lights and also to Mars Such a position for Mercury in the novien chart denotes a great love for children and youth generally. So it is not surprising that in 1927 he and his second wife started a school which they managed for about five years.
Again, his intellect is easy to attribute to his Virgo Moon (and, to a lesser extent, his Taurus Sun). But as someone who also has a partile Moon-Mercury square in the Novien or Navamsa, I'm happy to let Fagan make his point about additional indications from the Novien place. Notice that Novien-to-Novien aspects also exist in the Navamsa, but Novien-to-Natal do not. Here (with modern calculations) are the relevant positions (N is Novien, r is radical):

4°05' Sco N Mercury
4°48' Tau r Mars
5°05' Tau r Sun
5°52' Leo N Moon

I don't know Russell's motives in starting the school Fagan mentioned. Was it primarily educational and informative or, as Fagan seems to be saying, was it because of "a great love for children"? If the latter, a much simpler indication is his Taurus Sun: Taurians have a noted "special relationship" with the young, with a number of children's authors and educators having the Sun-sign. Additionally, Venus is about 4° from Descendant - he was an especially loving person, I am sure.
With Neptune in Leo [in the Novien], the constellation that holds his novienic Moon, it is little wonder that he has been in disrepute over his strong views on pacifism and morality. He even has been imprisoned at one time and while in prison he wrote one of his fine books entitled Marriage and Morals.
I might think it strange and a "stretch" for Fagan to cite Neptune in a Leo Novien, except that one of his basic principles of interpreting these charts is that planets in the same sign as Novien Moon are especially important. Nonetheless, I don't think this had a thing to do with his disrepute over his strong views on pacifism and morality. First, notice that Russell, known as a pacifist, was a Taurus - which shines through even more than the Sun-Mars conjunction. But for Fagan's exact words, disrepute over his strong views on pacifism and morality, I note something much simpler that only the mundoscope shows:

Pluto 1°36' above Dsc
Venus 3°42' above Dsc

Angular Pluto people, no matter how noble and distinguished, have a strong tendency to fall into disrepute - and, in Russell's case, it was for two topics obviously related to closely angular Pluto's close conjunction with Venus! (Pluto, as his most angular planet, is of course also consistent with his exceptionalism.)

(Disrepute is also shown by Jupiter background and afflicted.)
With his natal Moon placement in the constellation Virgo much of his effort and time was devoted to the production of learned books. This man is a mental giant both of this century and the previous one, possibly little understood by the commonality of his era.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:14 pm

BTW, the above was from Fagan's final "Solunars" column. The following issue (April 1970) was the first issue of American Astrology I bought, and featured Fagan's obituary - and began the reprints that eventually were turned into The Solunars Handbook.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:31 pm

At one point in my life I tried to purchase all the back issues of AA Mag from 1953 to 1970 in order to read all of Fagan's work, but my then it was to late to acquire. Fortunately I got hooked-up with you and Matthew (RIP). 😊

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10° aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:11 am

I've been re-reading Charles Carter's Astrological Aspects for the first time in a few decades. (It was one of the most important books in my own astrological training, so distinguished it was even serialized in American Astrology at one point.) I was quite delighted and surprised to discover something I possibly never noticed, or at least had completely forgotten:

From the Introduction:
Carter in Astrological Aspects wrote:This work is intended to be non-controversial but I am personally convinced that all exact 10° angles constitute aspects, probably of a neutral character but in this respect varying much with the essential natures and conditions of the bodies concerned.
These 10° aspects in the natus, of course, are the conjunction, opposition, and square in the Novien or Navamsa.

It tickled me to find this (I think the first edition was 1948).
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:28 pm

A small report on the objectivity (or not) of the Novien Moon longitude.

I've been watching transits to my Navamsa and Novien Moons on and off for years to see if there is something objective about the positions. Some years I can't watch because, say, an important SSR position falls at that degree so that one can't distinguish the two. I stopped watching transits to the Navamsa Moon a few years back because I'd seen enough occasions of transits to it fail - in some cases, producing exactly the opposite result - that it was clear to me that there was no real, objective position there that could be transited.

But, as other conditions, permitted, I've continued watching transits to Novien Moon and thought that the last month or so would provide me great opportunity to come to a clear opinion. My Novien Moon is 6°36' Libra, so transiting Saturn was set to square it April 30 and May 31.

The first of these was a good hit. Besides a few small things that would have been minimally adequate on their own to reflect the transit, I learned with a very few days (with orb still small) that a woman who was my oldest living friend died - someone I'd been close to for decades. Very fitting for the transit. I held off mentioning knowing that the Saturn station was coming up May 10 (still within orb) and the return transit May 31.

Well, the days around the station were nothing in particular, so I set my eyes on May 31. This day was quite the opposite of what I'd expect from the transit! After months locked down at home, Marion and I hit the road for her birthday, drove to Big Sur, took Kali with us, found two wineries open again on the return half of the trip, and had a really splendid time. The only downers were that the rest of the world was in crisis, Los Angeles was suddenly under curfew and riots breaking out - while we were gone and far from all of it, mind you! -and we spent an extra night sleeping away before coming back home. At worst, on the exact day 5/31, having driven the last hour into town at dawn, we slept half the day and were a bit run down then and the next day (Monday).

It's pretty hard for me to credit this with a Saturn transit to Moon!

However, the first of the two was solid. This second one had complicating factors that make it hard to fully rule out the transit, though the days leading up to it were some of the nicest in recent months and the exact pass came without consequence to us. Being back in town, the subsequent week was a bit weird - National Guard armed and with tanks on neighborhood corners, inconvenience of the curfew - but that was hardly personal or unique.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:07 am

Jim wrote:
A summary of Cyril Fagan's final views on the Novien.
The Hindu Navamsa is identical with the Western "9th Harmonic Chart." The Novien is identical except that it presumes that the zodiac starts at 0° Taurus, rather than 0° Aries. He felt the original purpose, or raison d'etre, of the noviens was to serve as a type of aspectarian. "In all probability this may have been the original and authentic method of determining effective aspects in vogue... and may indicate that existing methods of doing this are false. In short, the birth chart is only intended to show the zodiaical emplacements of the planets... and their positons in the mundane sphere. Whereas the novien is a more intimate and personal chart [emphasis added], depicting the true destiny of the individual by means of the mutual aspects subsisting between the planets, which are frequently not at all apparent in the birth chart."
Jim, Fagan’s following words confuse me:
"In all probability this may have been the original and authentic method of determining effective aspects in vogue... and may indicate that existing methods of doing this are false.

Jim, can you offer your words what you think Fagan specifically means in the above bold quoted words?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:27 am

Steve, read the sentence right before that. That says what is being talked about in the portion inside the " marks.
He felt the original purpose, or raison d'etre, of the noviens was to serve as a type of aspectarian.
In all probability "this" aspectarian may have been the original and authentic method of determining effective aspects in vogue... and may indicate that existing methods of doing "this" determining effective aspects are false.

But remember Fagan was speculating here, not saying it was so. He was asking the question. Don't take his questions as facts.

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:56 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:07 am
Jim, Fagan’s following words confuse me:
"In all probability this may have been the original and authentic method of determining effective aspects in vogue... and may indicate that existing methods of doing this are false.

Jim, can you offer your words what you think Fagan specifically means in the above bold quoted words?
It's understandable why these are confusing, Steve. While Fagan did write enough to make his meaning clear, it wasn't a linear development.

JSAD is right that this was speculative - thinking aloud - not a certainty. He'd discovered something new and was feeling his way through it in his last months. Fagan was known for enthusiastic, sometimes bombastic language (I love reading him when he's on an enthusiastic roll), and it wasn't uncommon for him to say something like "in all probability" when he meant, "just maybe." This was an idle speculation in passing, something to engage his readers' imaginations.

First, I need to say that, after considering this from different perspectives over the half century since Astrological Origins was published, I think this idle speculation was wrong, at least as he wrote it. That is, it's inconsistent with everything else Fagan ever wrote that this would be how the Egyptians originally calculated aspects. It may, however, have been how the Greeks first carried astrology into India, or something that developed in India very early. (We're only speaking of history here, not in terms of what actually works astrologically.)

So... what did Fagan mean?

Let's start with the question: What in the heck is an aspect vernier? A vernier is a physical tool - you can Bing or Google the word and see pictures of the kind of tool. It was named after an 18th century French mathematician who invented the tool. To put Fagan's words in perspective, you might want to read this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier_scale

The specific purpose of the physical tool called vernier is to zoom-in for more precise measurements: It mechanically allows you to interpolate between two tiny areas by zooming in your measurement calibration. (If my words are confusing, look at pictures of the tool and read the Wikipedia article.) So, by calling the Novien an aspect-vernier, her was citing a mathematical property that any harmonic chart has: It "blows up" the view so that you can more precisely measure tiny little differences.

Okay, hoping that doesn't confuse you... (if was background information but not absolutely essential to answering your question)...

In context of the rest of his article on the Novien in Astrological Origins, Fagan was discussing the following approach: Hindu astrology primarily relies on whole-sign aspects. I suspect this is a consequence of insufficiently reliable calculations (a problem the Egyptians and Mesopotamians didn't have). For example, anything in Cancer squares anything in Libra without consideration of the actual degrees. Now, in the birth chart this is pretty wide. For example, you wouldn't usually consider that you have a Sun-Mercury conjunction since they are over 17° apart, but since they are both in Virgo this would be conjunction in the "whole sign" sense. You would consider that your Sun and Venus are in conjunction, though a bit wide, since they are nearly 5° apart.

However - here is the main point - while a whole sign is 30° wide, it is divided into nine Navamsas or Noviens that are each only 3°20' wide. If two planets are in the same Novien (that is, the same sign in the Novien: the word is used to mean a segment of a sign in the same sense as decanate), then we would know that the aspect was much closer!

A practical example from your chart: You have Jupiter in Libra and Mars in Gemini. From a "whole sign" perspective, anything in Gemini trines anything in Libra. But how strong is it? Using the Novien as an aspect vernier, we find that both Mars and Jupiter are in a Libra Novien. Aha, so it's a close aspect! In fact, knowing they are in the same Novien sign tells us that their natal chart connection is less than 3°20' - roughly where I define "Class 1 aspects" to end.

To people not used to thinking in terms of degrees, it gives them workable methods to say, "If the planets have a [whole-sign] conjunction or trine and are in the same Novien, then it is a really close aspect and you should pay more attention!" The Novien as a vernier "zooms in" on the closer aspects.

Mathematically, any "harmonic chart" has this "zooming in" effect, i.e., shows aspects in a "blown up" way that magnifies the orbs of natal aspects so that the closest ones stand out better. The difference between the Novien and any other harmonic chart is that, over millennia, it has been identified (at least in India) as the "zoom in" of extraordinary value, respected as practically another nativity. In India, one usually sees the Navamsa side-by-side with the rasi (normal birth chart) in much the way that I usually have the mundoscope side-by-side (and, with TMSA, now integrated into the nativity). At the time if Fagan's death, Sidereal astrology might have been moving toward routinely showing the Novien next to the nativity. (Who knows? Fagan was moving that direction but might have switched course after a while; but he was terribly passionate about the Novien.)


Now, for the other point I mentioned - why I don't think this was ever used this way in ancient Egypt. We know some key points about how the ancient Egyptians calculated aspects, especially due to Fagan's digging. I'm sure we don't know everything, but we know a lot!) Ancient Egyptian aspects were all different versions of parans, under which heading I include all heliacal and acronychal phenomena. Based on Sun's passage through the zodiac, every planet and star would spend a few weeks "hidden" behind the sun, first disappearing from nighttime view as it approached Sun ("setting" = disappearing) and then later emerging into view again when Sun got far enough past it ("rising" = appearing). Besides these enormously important phenomena, the other aspects were those readily seen at the horizon and meridian: conjunctions when planets would cross the meridian together or rise or set together; oppositions, when one would rise as the other set; even a form of square, where one planet or star would cross the meridian as another rose (note the way that the culmination of the Aries pentades were part of the timing of the rising of Sirius). Possibly the Egyptians had no other aspects than these - at least, I know of no evidence that they did (which explains why these are exactly the aspects Fagan most emphasized in his decades of writing).

Instead of a Navamsa or Novien segment 3°20' wide, Fagan was convinced (I think rightly so) that the Egyptians noted everything to the nearest pentade - a 5° range. This seems to have been connected to his oft-stated opinion that 5° was the basic orb people should use (even though he often used much larger orbs all the way to the end). With his decades of attention to 5° orbs and "measuring to the closest pentade," the 3°20' "orb" of the Novien would seem more concentrated - and this excited him.

The main take-away from Fagan's conjecture of that, foremost (but not necessarily exclusively) the Novien is important for the "zoom-in" look at natal aspects it provides. This seems unrelated to anything I know to exist from ancient Egyptian astrology (not even the same kind of thinking), but especially could have arisen in India after Alexander's armies carried astrology there. We know that, by that time, the Greeks had already put their mark on astrology - India inherited Greek names of the signs, Greek concepts of houses, and more - and probably also inherited or adapted Greek concepts of aspects. I don't know how early the Greeks introduced the trine and sextile, for example, but it likely was between the time that they conquered Egypt and the time they conquered India, because their house concepts were already reflecting a strength hierarchy of conjunction, opposition, square, trine, sextile, no aspect in that order - so the aspect innovations likely were well-formed (at least, the basics). This means that, far from being "the original and authentic method of determining effective aspects," these would have been in the second or third wave of "inventing" aspects - though it might very well have been part of the "original" method that took root in India.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:05 am

Thank you so much Jim for your time with this detailed response, it helps me much in certain objectives I have. I want you to understand something that I feel needs to be explained: Back in the 70’s when I purchased most all of WD Gann’s course material from the man who bought Gann’s publishing company after Gann died, it was full of plastic over lays of Price & Time stuff. Nobody had a clue how Gann was using this stuff. When I found out Gann was using some astronomical principles for these plastic overlays and Price & Time charts, I went to a-lot of time and effort tracking down Gann’s family members. I finally got into touch with Gann’s Son, and he told me he didn’t know/understand his Father’s knowledge, but he told me where Gann was taught his market knowledge: It was in a remote part of India (in the mountains), and his Father spent several weeks there. Question: Since you live in a culturally rich area, who would you contact for questions that possibly could lead me and my questions for more “depth of thought/mental work” pertaining to India’s early astrology. Are there any Schools In India who exclusively use our Sidereal Zodiac?
Jim wrote:
The Novien as a vernier "zooms in" on the closer aspects.
This is exactly what it is proving for my life/chart, only with the 5th & 9th Harmonic. I am so glad you are going to include Novien discussion in you new book.
Jim wrote:
Fagan was moving that direction but might have switched course after a while; but he was terribly passionate about the Novien.
Right now—I am too; and want to spend some time & effort pursuing possible other lines of investigations. Jim, I want you to understand if any of my posts or questions to you seem offensive, they are certainly not meant to be. All my life, sometimes my responses have been taken as offensive. It’s just that I have such an inquiring mind, sometimes people miss-understand where I am trying to come from. I was forewarned of this back in the 70’s when I did a week of work with a high grade psychic. I simply miss-understand a-lot of stuff endeavoring to learn stuff I am deeply interested in learning for my style of practice. I often chose the wrong words in some of my responses and do a poor job of trying to eplain where I am coming from. Thanks again Jim, your words/writing has always related well with me and you know this with all the questions I have asked you in the last 14 years. I may have more questions with this topic--if it becomes annoying PM me and let me know---and I will stop. Thanks

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:13 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:05 am
Question: Since you live in a culturally rich area, who would you contact for questions that possibly could lead me and my questions for more “depth of thought/mental work” pertaining to India’s early astrology. Are there any Schools In India who exclusively use our Sidereal Zodiac?
Almost nobody knows anything about it. Dr. Raman used to say that Indian astrologers weren't interested in origins. (He must have said this a lot. I think I saw him write it in one issue of his magazine. I know he wrote it to me in a letter. Fagan also quoted him saying it, and added that it was because they know better!)

Fagan has an important chapter in Astrological Origins about the history of the Indian zodiac. I think it was mostly a summary of an article he wrote for Raman's magazine years before, called something like "The Paranatellonta of Aswini." His main point was to demonstrate that the Indian zodiac, for a time, was Tropical - and became Sidereal only by accident! (To my knowledge, no Indian school uses the SVP despite the fact that it matches to the minute of arc the Babylonian zodiac that the Greeks carried into India. I suspect this is because it later only stumbled into being sidereal by accident. India is not the preserve of ancient traditions predating the Greeks. Nothing at all in Indian astrology predates what Alexander's army took there, so your real question might be about the earliest Greek astrologies.)

There might be a chapter in Gleadow's book on origins of the zodiac - I haven't read that in a while and need to sometime in the next year. I'm sure he covers history but I don't remember how much.

In general, though, there is almost nothing done on the history of Indian astrology to my knowledge - and Fagan did most of it.
Jim wrote:
Fagan was moving that direction but might have switched course after a while; but he was terribly passionate about the Novien.
Right now—I am too;
Steve, I haven't seen you post anything on the Novien at all (maybe I missed it?). Only on the Navamsa (and, of course, other harmonics).
Jim, I want you to understand if any of my posts or questions to you seem offensive, they are certainly not meant to be.
I know that. We just have to keep general stuff on harmonics from mingling in since, as much as John Addey was a friend of Roy Firebrace, he also was a dedicated foe of Sidereal astrology with an intent to dismantle the idea that a zodiac existed at all. Mingling it with our core content would be quite confusing to people using the site and interested in learning about Sidereal Astrology.

The Novien is in a world of it own - being Fagan's last innovation in the core Sidereal system.

Let's just keep everything else in the Experimental section where neither search engines nor unregistered forum members can see it.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:51 am

Jim wrote:
Steve, I haven't seen you post anything on the Novien at all (maybe I missed it?). Only on the Navamsa (and, of course, other harmonics).
After reading 3 books on Harmonics, I got very interested in the Fagan's Novien work and revisted the Novien Topic threads again for more in-depth look-see. Then took a hard look at my Navasma chart as a stand-along only with close & partile aspects---then comparing my Navasma to my Wife's Natal and vice versa, all because of what I read in the 3 lastest books on Harmonics.

Regardless, I have become very impressed with this 9 times business. Then I noticed what you said about 0 Cap tieing into 9 with a begining 0 Taurus Zodiac. I was stirred deeply by more in-depth thinking and very much stirred my curiosty. Where there is smoke there is fire and I see a smothering fire of stuff that I never considered before---its mostly new to me--I want to push the evelope further and see if it gets me anywhere.

If I understand what your experience is saying: the California Sidereal Community incorporated a-lot of Fagan's thoughts/beleifs on the Novien but maybe not exactly sure of the methodology. Gann used a-lot of 9 & square of 9 (81) overlays with markets---I mean WTF!!!! Very, very curious. I understand about your main objectives with forum/Sidereal Astrology. Its your forum and I have tried to support your forum the best I can. I am here to learn and now I realize more so that Fagan was in a way seriously looking into the harmonic of 9 with Novien/Navasmic/Harmonic of 9, speculative or not. When I pile on this 9 stuff with my serious look into Gann's work with markets, I have become much more interested in micro aspects with Harmonics. Never knew I was stepping on anyones feelings/feet with my Harmonic posts. As I have always said: Its your forum---do what you feel is the right thing to do with my posts---I tend to jump around a-lot with Fagan's words as it relates back to any new astrological learning that lands in my lap. PM me if you think I am hurthing your forum objectives.

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:25 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:51 am
If I understand what your experience is saying: the California Sidereal Community incorporated a-lot of Fagan's thoughts/beleifs on the Novien but maybe not exactly sure of the methodology.
When I arrived in California in 1975, the local Sidereal community used the fruits of the Novien without usually setting up a Novien chart most of the time - especially those who did a high volume of client work, some of whom worked the fairs and other tent affairs that were common at the time.

The key is simple: Every 10° is an aspect. You sight-read them off the natal. Since the orb inflates 9x, a 0°20' orb is like 180' = 3°, a 0°40' orb like a 360' = 6° aspect. The default in practice was to use a 1° orb and think that was maybe just a little excessive.

Though this can easily be done off the natal without a special display, here is an example of using your chart. I've sorted by 10° multiples.

20°10' Vir - Mercury
20°14' Can - Pluto
2°06' Gem - Uranus
2°50' Vir - Sun
24°03' Can - Saturn
15°22' Sco - Moon
16°02' Vir - Neptune
7°27' Vir - Venus
29°42' Lib - Jupiter
29°50' Gem - Mars

To make this even easier, I'm going to rewrite it without signs or leading digits, and rotate the last two items to the top:

9°42' - Jupiter
9°50' - Mars
0°10' - Mercury
0°14' - Pluto
2°06' - Uranus
2°50' - Sun
4°03' - Saturn
5°22' - Moon
6°02' - Neptune
7°27' - Venus

A lot of these aspects are normal aspects that are seen in the chart, such as your Mercury-Pluto sextile, Mars-Jupiter trine, and Sun-Uranus square. But there are some other aspects (that exist in the Novien) that you'd miss without looking for 10° multiples, like Mercury-Mars (20'), Mercury-Jupiter (28'), Mars-Pluto (24'), and Moon-Neptune (40').
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:30 pm

BTW, when an astrologer is strongly taken with something, it's a good idea to see how that something shows in the astrologer's own chart. While this surely (hopefully!) isn't the end of the astrologer's research, surely it would be one of the early stops.

Therefore, I find it at interesting question to ask what in the world Cyril Fagan found so fitting about Cyril Fagan's Novien.

Fagan was most taken with Moon's sign and Moon's aspects. Fagan's Novien Moon was in Cancer. However, when I real Fagan's own interpretation of Moon in Cancer, I can't see what might caught his attention and impressed him: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=105&p=636#p656

However, after that, the Novien is quite interesting. He probably was quite taken with the fact that his Novien Moon was exactly in Jupiter's exaltation degree. (Who wouldn't like to have a dignified Moon in the most exalted degree of the zodiac?) - His Novien has Moon, Venus, and Mars exalted.

The aspects are interesting, too. Moon is conjunct Sun and square Uranus-Pluto. (Sun is closer to Uranus-Pluto, but they're all close enough.) For my own reading of this, it accurately describes Fagan as a revolutionary astrologer, unearthing transformative ideas from antiquity. Using Fagan's own interpretations in the Sexascope chapter of Astrological Origins, he likely was describing himself as much as he was describing others - the Novien has the kind of Moon aspects that drew his attention in other charts he published.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 pm

The biggest problem with the Novien is... when do consult it. Exercising greatest care, the answer would be "always." At the very least, in examining a natal, the "reading all 10° multiples" needs to be considered.

The uncertainty is because everything in the Novien is likely to be true - just as much as in the horoscope - but most of the time it won't be necessary. The same main elements will be vividly present in the natal. OTOH, without checking the Novien, one won't know whether it's necessary.

Once Mike gets to the version of TMSA where he's including the Novien, this will be simpler. It will only a few seconds to see everything (probably two or three clicks), whereas now it's a somewhat tedious process. Technology may solve the "when is it worth the extra time and energy" when that becomes less than five seconds and two mouse clicks :) Guessing what Mike has in mind, besides the sign positions if one wants them, I suspect it will show (using my Novien as an example and my aspect defaults):

Class 1 Aspects
Mo sq Me 0°27'
Ve sq Pl 2°00'
Ju co Ur 2°31'

Class 2 Aspects
Su co Ve 5°14'
Su sq Pl 3°14'
Ve sq Ne 4°52'
Ne op Pl 6°52'

Novien to Natal
N Mo sq r Ju 2°59'
N Me co. r Ju 2°33'
N Me co r Ur 2°50'
N Ma op r Me 2°57'
N Ur sq r Mo 2°36'
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:56 pm

Jim wrote:
Once Mike gets to the version of TMSA where he's including the Novien, this will be simpler. It will only a few seconds to see everything (probably two or three clicks), whereas now it's a somewhat tedious process.
I understand Jim. Question: Do you beleive partile aspects in the Novien "Reign Supreme"? If so, can they easily be recognized with TMSA?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:13 pm

They "reign supreme" in the sense that they are the strongest, but by no means should one only count on them. Aspects to at least 3° and probably 5-6° are important.

Remember that the orbs are magnified nine times. A 6° conjunction in the Novien is only a 0°40' aspect in the natal chart (1/9). The full range of Class 1 aspects needs very serious consideration.

Regardless - in TMSA you can always set the orbs you want to use, plus the aspect table lists the orbs - so yes, once Noviens are implemented you will be able to easily recognize aspects to whatever orb threshold you want.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:25 pm

Thanks Jim. Do you beleive conjunctions are the more important aspect in a Novien?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 pm

Maybe. Conjunctions and oppositions seem the most important in any chart, and squares aren't that much weaker (and that's all we're checking - those three), so I doubt it makes much difference what the aspect is. Orb will matter more.

For example, in the sample of my chart above, the Moon-Mercury square 0°27' is a bigger deal than the Sun-Venus conjunction 5°14'.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Danica » Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:17 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 pm

Class 2 Aspects
Su co Ve 5°14'
Su sq Pl 3°14'
Ve sq Ne 4°52'
Ne op Pl 6°52'
I think these are quite descriptive of your tendency to be empowering people to be exactly what they are, and to do this in a (what I se as such, at least) pronouncedly non-intrusive, non-imposing manner.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:22 pm

I think the aspects are fitting, though not my most salient traits. I do think they need to be considered in a exhaustive treatment of my nativity, but likely can be skipped over for anything less than that.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:28 pm

Jim wrote:
For example, in the sample of my chart above, the Moon-Mercury square 0°27' is a bigger deal than the Sun-Venus conjunction 5°14'.
Exactly! I see this aspect working big time in your life with all the volume of writing (communications) you do with your astrological writings.
Jim wrote:
Class 1 Aspects
Mo sq Me 0°27'
Ve sq Pl 2°00'
Ju co Ur 2°31'

Class 2 Aspects
Su co Ve 5°14'
Su sq Pl 3°14'
Ve sq Ne 4°52'
Ne op Pl 6°52'

Novien to Natal
N Mo sq r Ju 2°59'
N Me co. r Ju 2°33'
N Me co r Ur 2°50'
N Ma op r Me 2°57'
N Ur sq r Mo 2°3
Have you ever seen any Fagan examples of these type aspects associated with the Novien in his AA columns?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:34 pm

Do you mean Novien to Novien and Novien to Natal aspects? Sure. You can also find at least one example in thr Novien chapters of Astrological Origins.
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Jacqueline Kenned Onassis (Fagan example)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:15 pm

from Astrological Origins:
Fagan wrote:The charts given here are the geniture, the novienic equivalent, and the combination of same for the birth of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, which is reported to have taken place at Southampton, NY on July 28, 1929 at 3:00 PM EDST. [The time is given as 2:30 PM, A-rated. This will make no great difference in the present example. - JAE] A glance at the geniture shows that the Moon is in Aries 2°08', the novienic equivalent of which is most appropriately Leo 19°12'. [For 2:30, Moon's Novien is 16°39' Leo.] ...The novienic chart shows the Sun in conjunction with Mars in Aquarius in opposition to Saturn right across the "horizon" of the figure, a clear omen of the tragic death of her former husband, John F. Kennedy. When both the natal and novienic equivalent charts are combined... we find that the two benefics, Venus and Jupiter, in Taurus straddle the Midheaven [He means the upper square to Novien Moon. - JAE], indicative of her marriage into affluence; while the tragedy of her first marriage is emphasized by the natal Neptune and Mars in Leo entering into the affliction across the "horizon."
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Franz Haarmann (Fagan example)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:31 pm

from Astrological Origins...
Fagan wrote:Perhaps oner of the worst cases of sadism on record is that of Fritz Haarmann, who according to the records was born on October 25, 1879 at 6:00 PM LMT at Hanover, Germany (52N22, 9E44). He was a butcher and ran his own store. He also was a stool-pigeon and was held in esteem by the police of Hanover. But Haarmann was an out and out sadist, and his particular attraction was to young boys who appeared in that city looking for work. Possibly straying into his store seeking employment, alas, they never were seen again. How he disposed of the bodies makes gruesome reading, but it was observed that during an acute meat shortage in his city, there was always a plentiful supply of same in the Haarmann shop. Upon inquiry, over 24 skeletons were recovered. Haarmann confessed, was tried, and was executed on April 16, 1926 at 6:00 AM at Hanover. His sexascope chart shows the Moon in Leo 0°45' in square to the natal Mars and natal Pluto which were in mutual conjunction in Taurus 3°04' and 3°38' respectively, and also in square to Algol in Taurus 1°26', which incidentally is considered to be the most sinister star in the heavens!
Fagan didn't mention the even closer Moon-Jupiter square in the sexascope (Novien). While the Novien Moon to natal Mars-Pluto showed many things, the single most gruesome marker is the partile Saturn-Neptune square in the Novien which fell directly atop natal Sun:

8°52' Lib - r Sun
9°54' Ari - N Saturn
10°29' Cap - N Neptune
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Ian Brady (Fagan example)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:55 pm

In the last edition of The Primer of Sidereal Astrology which Cyril Fagan co-authored with Brigadier Firebrace, a section on the Novien was added - obviously written entirely by Fagan - in Chapter 27, "The Art of Interpretation." In the AFA republication, the Novien section begins on page 113.

His one example was Ian Brady, born January 2, 1938, 12:40 PM GMT, Glasgow, Scotland (AA). The article is long, a little rambling, so I won't retype most of it. Brady's case is pretty well known (and Wikipedia describes it better than Fagan's summary). Fagan generally agreed with astrologer Dennis Elwell that, on its face, Brady's chart was no worse than many of others (though Fagan did note that Moon in Sagittarius near MC was consistent with other known sadistic murderers). He then picks up:
Fagan wrote:The first thing that rivets the attention is that the Ascendant of the Novien, which tallies with that of the Moon's novienic longitude, is in Pisces, and statistics have established that more active sadomasochists have the Moon in Pisces than in any other sign...

Sadism is a symptom that the native is undersexed. In such cases the Sun, seat of the vital urge, will be found in strong configuration with Saturn. To work himself into the required state of potency, he must feel power flowing through his being, and usually can only feel that power when he lashes away at some other unfortunate who cannot escape. The more they can hear another yell for mercy, the more potent they feel... In this novienic chart [of Brady], natal Sun in [17°36'] Sagittarius was in conjunction with the triple conjunction of Pluto [19°29'], Saturn [18°13'], and Uranus [23°29']. So the native was forced to perform the most fiendish acts of cruelty to awaken sufficient sexual drive to himself. Perhaps he would be content like celibates to remain permanently in his sexually apathetic state were it not for the opposition of [Novien] Mars in the boyish Gemini [15°24'] to the natal Sun. In contradiction to the influence of natal Saturn to natal Sun, mutual configuration between the Sun and Mars make one oversexed to a high degree, especially the ladies, and in consequence, their demonic lives are in a frantic state of turmoil. It is these contradictory configurations that made the native the sadist he was...

It is submitted that the novienic Moon in Pisces square aspect to natal sun, and to the novienic Pluto, Saturn, and Uranus in Sagittarius and to the novienic Mars in Gemini, adequately and perfectly portrays the stated character and disposition of the native.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:27 am

Jim wrote about Fagan views on the Novien:
He gave examples showing that he found value in interpreting the second and third level Moon-signs (the Novien Moon and Novien-of-Novien Moon).
Jim, to make sure I understand what Fagan is saying here: He is talking about the 9th & 81st harmonic of the Natal Moon, correct?
Jim quotes Fagan:
The reverse of this is likewise significate; namely, when the Novien of a planet interchanges with the natal Moon, or with one of its noviens."
I am not sure I know what Fagan means:
Or with one of its noviens.
?
Jim quotes Fagan:
"The environment of one's own making is... indicated by one's Moon constellation and by its noviens." [He gives examples of this.]
If I understand Fagan, since my Natal Moon is in Scorpio and my Novien Moon falls in Scorpio, I will mold my “environment” with Scorpio Nature. Correct?

I know you are busy on a road trip so wait until you get back to normal activity before answering.

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:44 am

SteveS wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:27 am
Jim wrote about Fagan views on the Novien:
He gave examples showing that he found value in interpreting the second and third level Moon-signs (the Novien Moon and Novien-of-Novien Moon).
Jim, to make sure I understand what Fagan is saying here: He is talking about the 9th & 81st harmonic of the Natal Moon, correct?
Yes, making sure to calculate from 0 Taurus instead of 0 Aries. 9th, 81st, and 729th.
Jim quotes Fagan:
The reverse of this is likewise significate; namely, when the Novien of a planet interchanges with the natal Moon, or with one of its noviens."
I am not sure I know what Fagan means:
Or with one of its noviens.
?
He means one of the successive noviens of Moon that you asked about above, i.e., natal Moon or 9th, 81st, or 729th harmonic of natal Moon (calculated from 0 Taurus, not 0 Aries).

Since you don't have an easy way to calculate these "from 0 Taurus" charts on your computer, but can calculate the 9th, 81st, and 729th, I'll tell you the trick: Whichever of these (9/81/729), ADD ONE TRINE to the Moon position. For example, using Solar Fire I see that YOUR 729th harmonic Moon is in Leo. To get the "from 0 Taurus) equivalent, add a trine: It's in Sagittartius.
Jim quotes Fagan:
"The environment of one's own making is... indicated by one's Moon constellation and by its noviens." [He gives examples of this.]
If I understand Fagan, since my Natal Moon is in Scorpio and my Novien Moon falls in Scorpio, I will mold my “environment” with Scorpio Nature. Correct?
That's what he's saying. He was specifically talking about how you craft the place you live, but (at least for natal Moon) this has a wider meaning, I'm sure.

As a reminder, while I think it's important to offer Fagan's views on the Novien, this is the one place I disagree with him about the Novien: The whole Navamsa vs Novien question was totally confusing to me until I released the idea that Novien sign positions are important. I don't think they are important at all. (I am not a Libran. Marion is not a Sagittarius. Etc.) And yet, the Novien positions as longitudes are shockingly important in things like synastry.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:29 am

Jim wrote:
The idea to shift the starting point to 0° Taurus came from Garth Allen (Donald Bradley), who "suggested that to be consistent the Navamsas, if genuine, should also commence from the beginning of Taurus and not from the beginning of Aries, as is the present custom."
I take this to mean the "Novien" Chart is a Sidereal Astrology method birth by Donald Bradley's "suggestion". Correct?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:57 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:29 am
Jim wrote:The idea to shift the starting point to 0° Taurus came from Garth Allen (Donald Bradley), who "suggested that to be consistent the Navamsas, if genuine, should also commence from the beginning of Taurus and not from the beginning of Aries, as is the present custom."
I take this to mean the "Novien" Chart is a Sidereal Astrology method birth by Donald Bradley's "suggestion". Correct?
Sorta kinda yes. That might be too simple, but it's basically right.

One of Fagan's longtime colleagues and correspondents, K.H. Kharegat, pushed him to look into the Navamsa, thinking it greatly important. I get the impression that this urging and surrounding conversation took place across many years. Fagan wrote that his next move was inspired by the greater precision of Moon calculations that had become available (this would have been the late '60s, and might actually have referenced Gary Duncan's work: Under his real name Neil Block, he provided the formulae that NASA used for Moon calculations in the late stages of the space program).

Anyway, as Fagan told the story, he was being urged to check out the Navamsa so he ran the question past Bradley. I've always had the impression this happened as a hallway conversation at the Clancy Publications office when they bumped into each other, perhaps when Fagan went in to restock on printed horoscope blanks or drop off an article or some such thing. BTW, there wasn't much "hallway" except a short one down to Mrs. S's office. You walked in the front to a small reception area in dark wood paneling, with Mrs. S's office a few feet down a short hallway on the right and Bradley's office immediately off the lobby on the left, as best I remember it. Fagan might well have stepped into Bradley's office.

Regardless... and ignoring the minute details my imagination adds to the story... they had an off-the-cuff conversation one day in which Fagan says he asked Bradley what he thought about the idea of diving into the Navamsa, and Bradley said something equally off the cuff like, "Well, if there's anything to it, you probably should start counting from Taurus." Or, as Fagan later wrote of Bradley's "casual remark," "He suggested that to be consistent the Navamsa, if genuine, should also commence from the beginning of Taurus and not from the beginning of Aries, as is the present custom." Fagan, who previously had been utterly unimpressed by the Navamsa, went home, tried it, and was blown away at the results.

The Taurus recommendation, of course, was because Fagan and so firmly proven (consistent with other scholars) that Taurus was the first sign of the zodiac everywhere a zodiac sprang up. Nonetheless, I've always gotten a chuckle at the idea of these two Taurus men collaborating over 20 years to develop the "Taurus is first" zodiac <vbg>.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:23 am

Jim wrote:
Fagan, who previously had been utterly unimpressed by the Navamsa, went home, tried it, and was blown away at the results.
Jim, do you feel the same as Fagan with your research with the Navamsa? And thanks for your inner thoughts on your previous post, it helps me understand things better.
Jim, what is bugging me is when I calculate my 9th Harmonic Chart and compare it back to my Natal, I am absolutely blown away with it nailing the main symbolism in my life pertaining to Mars. In other words I am in agreement with K.H. Kharegat's "thinking the Navamsa is greatly important," but I have no way of knowing exactly how Kharegat used the Navamsa chart. My Navamsa chart compared back to my Natal truly reinforces in more important ways how my Natal Mars manifested in my life with most of my Career, it is indeed prophetic. But, when I compare my Novien back to my Natal, I lose the reinforcement of my Navamsa Mars as well as other symbolic factors. Out of my deep respect for Fagan/Bradley, this confuses me much. Jim, are you completely sold on the Novien Chart?

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:30 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:23 am
Jim wrote:
Fagan, who previously had been utterly unimpressed by the Navamsa, went home, tried it, and was blown away at the results.
Jim, do you feel the same as Fagan with your research with the Navamsa?
I think the Navamsa's hard aspects are dead-on accurate. (They are the same in Navamsa and Novien.)

But, besides that, yes, I agree with Fagan's conclusion that the Navamsa comes up short while the Novien is a remarkable discovery. Some of my individual thoughts on this:
  • I disagree with Fagan on the importance of the Novien SIGNS. Nothing made sense until I let go of the idea that the sign placements matter. I know I go against all tradition on this, but I'm pretty solid on it.
  • Novien positions act like actual positions, as if they were in a natal chart. This was first made clear in synastry, the area where traditionally this chart should excel. Specifically concentrating on aspects of Moon, Sun, Venus, and Mars in interchanges for my partnerships and other sexual history, the number and quality of aspect hits is really stunning - really phenomenal.
  • Also, transits to the Novien work, though I'm not clear how strong they are compared to transits to the natal or SSR. Specifically, I've studied transits to Navamsa and Novien Moons. The Navamsa Moon was quickly ruled out - the examples were either "nothing happened" or "this is completely wrong energy." Transits to Novien Moon aren't always easy to identify (especially with fast planets) but, for example, Anna-Kria died in her nursing home as Saturn squared my Novien Moon exactly; and there have been no contradictory examples. So, I take the Novien placements as objective planet placements (real longitudes), while the Navamsa fails at this.
  • With these last two points secured, I can trust comparing the Novien to natal planets and find that Novien-to-natal aspects are quite revealing.
  • I only limit my enthusiasm by wondering if - despite all this - it's really worth having a second chart for everyone. (Hindu astrologers do this: They have the natal and Navamsa side by side almost invariably.) I get enough from the natal alone nearly always. The added excitement of seeing that the Novien also is revelatory is usually just for my entertainment. But at least I can confirm that the Novien is a valid chart (as long as you ignore sign placements) while the Navamsa is not.
Jim, what is bugging me is when I calculate my 9th Harmonic Chart and compare it back to my Natal, I am absolutely blown away with it nailing the main symbolism in my life pertaining to Mars.
You mean that Navamsa Mars conjoins natal Mars? I'm not clear why this is impressing you so. For one thing, you have ample Mars in your natal chart to begin with just because your Moon is in Scorpio (possibly enhanced by Moon conjunct Antares.) I'm not sure what Novien Mars on natal Mars adds that this fundamental detail of your natal chart (Moon sign) doesn't give.

OTOH you did agree that Novien Saturn square natal Venus was highly descriptive of your early life.
In other words I am in agreement with K.H. Kharegat's "thinking the Navamsa is greatly important," but I have no way of knowing exactly how Kharegat used the Navamsa chart.
Well, while he always seemed more sensible than many other Hindu astrologers, from his writings I suspect he used it the way Hindu astrology conventionally uses it: To weigh planetary strength by duplicate sign placement and see where planets fell in the appropriate houses. Things like identifying your Moon and Venus as not quite as bad as their natal sign placements would suggest because your Moon is in the same Navamsa sign as the natal, Venus is exalted in the Navamsa instead of its fall; while your Jupiter is more negative, being in Gemini. Meanwhile, Mars with Jupiter in your "evil" Navamsa 8th house means (I'm making this up for effect, but it's the way they would usually do it) that you lose all your money with reckless gambling or die in glorious battle <g>.
My Navamsa chart compared back to my Natal truly reinforces in more important ways how my Natal Mars manifested in my life with most of my Career, it is indeed prophetic.
Knowing what I know of your career, I don't know how the Navamsa discloses this. I do note the word "reinforces," so I wonder if you are saying, "It says things that the natal chart already says anyway." - I suggest that with Moon in Scorpio you don't need anything else to mark any important presence of Mars in defining much of your life.
Jim, are you completely sold on the Novien Chart?
even more strongly, I'm completely sold against the Navamsa, except in the Navamsa-to-Navamsa hard aspects that are identical in the Novien.

And yes, to the extent I summarized on the bullet points above, I'm sold on the Novien.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:56 am

Thanks Jim, this helps alot. Based on knowing things in my personal life with acute details about the role Mars has played in my life with my Career, the issue of the Novien Chart vs the Navamsa Chart boils down to this for me:

Jim, do you know for sure if India's astrologers as a whole placed a great deal of importance knowing my Navamsa Mars position 1,20 conjunct my Natal Mars? I need to be able to know this for sure in order to make my final judjement on the Navamsa vs the Novien charts for myself used in comparing Navamsa/Novien longtitudes back to the Natal. This would mean, as I understand, Novien vs Navamsa issues would only show the main differences when comparing their positions back to the Natal Chart with partile/class 1 aspects.

The number one destiny track aspect in my Natal, hands down, in my entire life has been my rising Jupiter partile 120 Mars manifesting with me having to big time fight (Mars) with legal means trough the justice system (Jupiter) pertaining to my Career. It was a huge legal fight which went on for many months on two different fronts. I finally won through much emotional pain/grief! It made all the difference in my present World securing me the meager simple benefic life my wife and I now enjoy. I simply had to fight for my finacial survival life.

Jim wrote:
So, I take the Novien placements as objective planet placements (real longitudes), while the Navamsa fails at this.
I understand Jim, but I hope you undestand why my Navamsa Mars Placement compared to my Natal Mars makes me think different for my life? I mean no offense Jim, only trying to learn and understand more about India's thinking methodology with the Navamsa. This Mars placement in my Navamsa to my Natal Mars is like pouring gasoline on an already burning fire with my Natal Mars set-ups. My Navamsa Mars longitude magnifies my Natal Mars big time; therfore magnifying my main destiny track with my Natal Mars for my life. I need to be able to talk to an expert Indian Astrologer for questions, or to at least get a reading done by an expert Indian Astrolger to see if they emphasize my Navamsa Mars longitude position. If not, I will agree with you on the Novien vs the Navamsa.

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:30 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:56 am
Jim, do you know for sure if India's astrologers as a whole placed a great deal of importance knowing my Navamsa Mars position 1,20 conjunct my Natal Mars?
The conjunction itself? No, they place no unusual importance on that. In fact, a high percentage of Indian astrologers pay no attention to degrees (especially historically).

However, the fact that they are simply in the same sign is one kind of dignity (called vargottama. Theoretically, it's a kind of dignity comparable to, say, being in its own sign. I think you will recall, though, that when we discussed vargottama before, you contacted Jim Braha who (a) affirmed the tradition that this is a strong dignity and (b) told you he'd never been able to confirm it and IIRC that he gave it no importance.
This would mean, as I understand, Novien vs Navamsa issues would only show the main differences when comparing their positions back to the Natal Chart with partile/class 1 aspects.
More or less, yes. Novien (or Navamsa) to natal aspects would be the main difference. (That and its use in synastry.) Don't get stuck on partile necessarily but, yes, the most impressive things are close (about Class 1). Also, limit to 0/90/180 - I've seen a lot of Novien-to-Novien trines and sextiles that are pure nonsense. Fagan used the pentade (5° orb) comfortably but, of course, closer should produce the more striking results.
The number one destiny track aspect in my Natal, hands down, in my entire life has been my rising Jupiter partile 120 Mars manifesting with me having to big time fight (Mars) with legal means trough the justice system (Jupiter) pertaining to my Career. It was a huge legal fight which went on for many months on two different fronts. I finally won through much emotional pain/grief! It made all the difference in my present World securing me the meager simple benefic life my wife and I now enjoy. I simply had to fight for my finacial survival life.
Yes, that's clearly a very strong aspect in your natal. In the Navamsa and Novien (it makes no difference which), this close trine becomes a 1°08' conjunction, which is also aligned with a partile Mercury-Pluto opposition (your natal exact Mercury-Pluto sextile becomes an opposition). The aspects are the same whether Navamsa or Novien.

However, with the Novien this becomes an even bigger deal because it all falls on your natal Jupiter-Node-Ascendant. (In other words, in the Novien it is your Jupiter that is vargottama, though I'm still not sure that matters.) Here's how it lays out:

27°22' Lib - Novien Jupiter
27°55' Lib - natal Asc
28°30' Lib - Novien Mars
29°42' Lib - natal Jupiter
1°10' Sco - natal S. Node
1°31' Sco - Novien Mercury
2°04' Tau - Novien Pluto

In one sense, this adds nothing new. In another sense, it is an astonishing pile-up of planets describing even more clearly what you just desribed. - Imagine how you would interpret this if it were a lunar return instead of a Novien doing this to your natal Jupiter etc.

On the rest, I was only answering the specific opinion questions you asked :)
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:06 am

Regarding K.M. Kharegat, it occurred to me that rather than give impressions of how I thought he might think, I might be able to provide you with samples - since he wrote for Spica. (I'd forgotten this. This would have been a better answer above if I'd remembered at the time.)

You especially might want to read Sri Kharegat's article "Navamsa Chart & Navamsa Solar Return" in Vol. V, No 1 (October 1965). I think it's a good example of his thinking on this subject. (He goes further than I'm willing to go, taking transiting Navamsa positions, but since he is going Navamsa to Navamsa, the results will be the same Novien to Novien.) - I'm not necessarily endorsing anything he says, just giving an example of his actual thinking. - He then introduces (years ahead of Garth Allen) what to all effect is the Ennead, under the name Navamsa Solar Return.

In the next issue of Spica, Vol. V, No. 2, Kharegat wrote "Interpretation of the Navamsa Chart." Though the prior article probably will be of interest to you, this one is probably the more important for the larger picture of how he interpreted the Navamsa. (It's pretty complicated, since it gets into deep waters of technical Indian methods. I suspect the opening remarks will interest you and a basic impression of the rest, but probably you won't memorize the scores of rules he gives in the middle. His remark in paragraph #6 that "these rules... are very simple to remember" is quite funny <g>. You should read paragraph numbered 6 in any case to get his perspective.)

Kharegat wrote other articles in Spica on mathematics and other issues not related to your question. Firebrace also references him and private correspondence. If interested, you can take the large PDF of the whole run of Spica we have and search for Kharegat to find the many places his name appears. It's interesting to see that the Navamsa Solar Return (= Ennead) was under frequent discussion from the mid-1960s (I'd forgotten this).

Kharegat wrote on "The Nativity of Sir Winston Churchill" in Vol. VI, No. 4 with the Navamsa alongside it as usual. In Vol. VII, No. 2 he wrote on "Constellation Rulers - Their Use in Delineation." And so forth.
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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by SteveS » Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:00 am

Jim, is the Novien Chart the only Chart Fagan used a beginning 0 degree Taurus Zodiac? Thanks

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Re: The Novien - Fagan's views

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:27 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:00 am
Jim, is the Novien Chart the only Chart Fagan used a beginning 0 degree Taurus Zodiac? Thanks
There is nothing else for him to have mentioned it on.

Of course, he made clear that 0° Taurus was the start of the zodiac itself. Besides appearing more often late in his life in "Solunars," it is quite clear and detailed in Astrological Origins.

Though Fagan knew of other Hindu vargas, he was highly skeptical of all of them. It was only with great persistence that a colleague persuaded him to look into the Navamsa, which is the premier sub-chart of the Hindu system. At that point, he experimented with calculating it (a 9th harmonic chart) in a zodiac measured from 0° Taurus and got very excited. He never tried any other vargas (at least, not in public).

Following on that theory, Mike has announced a harmonic feature eventually for TMSA which will allow a wide range of harmonic charts to be calculated from a 0° Taurus origin, I wrote (somewhere around here) a brief breakdown on some of the changes we would expect.

For example, the Novien is exactly like the Navamsa except with everything 120° later. (In the 0° Aries model, 0° Taurus has a 0° Capricorn Navamsa. Making this 0° Taurus increases the position a trine.)

The Panchamsa (5th harmonic) moves 120° backwards: In the 0° model, 0° Taurus has a 0° Virgo Panchamsa, so getting that to 0° Taurus means backing up a trine.

Not all the vargas have so easy a conversion solution.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

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