DEATH

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Arena
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DEATH

Post by Arena » Wed May 08, 2019 9:17 am

I'd like to know your views on astrological indicators for death in the natal chart, but only from looking into solar arcs and transits. I don't want to mix too many methods like solar and lunar or Q charts into this discussion. I simply want to keep it simple. I want to see if the simple methods alone can tell us when death is likely to be brought about.

What do transits and solar arcs tell us about the death of the native?
Saturn and Pluto are the planets most associated with death, but we've also seen them in mixture with Neptune (medicine or drugs+another world), Mars when violent or bloody, and Uranus when sudden or surprising. Venus is usually not far away because people most likely receive love from their friends and family around the time they die... but Venus would never be seen as a trigger for death though. It's just an expression of love during the time.

A traditional view in astrology is that Sun is the native's vitality and that can be diminished by Saturn and/or Pluto. Another traditional view is that the ASC/DSC axis is going to be involved and I would keep the EP/WP axis in the picture as well. The ASC/EP being the native's body/health/appearance and the DSC/WP being mentioned as "the setting point" or the death point. For those who want to come forward with their examples, please also include the Nodes of the Moon in this little research. Many astrologers associate death with the 8th house/sign and/or the arabic part of death... but this would complicate things a lot because people don't use the same house systems. I like to stick to the whole sign houses and maybe I will just add those two parts into the research at a later stage when I've had a look at the simplest things first.

Like I said, my view is that Saturn and Pluto are the planets that are the catalysts, the trigger for death while the others are more like a description of what else was going on at the moment - but I want to look into maybe 30-50 charts at least to have a clearer picture.

I would like those who have their own views to participate in this thread and do a little simple research with me - but our views have to be based on real examples and we have to use the same approach; just solar arcs & transits and only using AA Rodden rating charts. If using non AA charts, we can not use the angles nor the Moon in the chart... so better stick to AA charts. Therefore I will start by taking a look at a few people's charts.

For those who are interested in the subject, they might also be interested in this Ted Talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMYhgTgE6MU

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Re: DEATH

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 08, 2019 10:09 am

Sure, Saturn and Pluto are conceptually the right planets for death, and other malefics in terms of specific causes of death (more than the death event itself).

And, actually, I need to make a distinction on Pluto: Generally it isn't a planet of death per se but, rather, with someone's confrontation of and struggle with existential issues about mortality. This is my conclusion from the fact that Pluto is much more likely to be active in drawn-out illnesses where one has a lot of time to dwell on the fact that one is dying, and for someone else's death around us. But for a quick death with no time to think about it, Pluto is rarely a factor. (Specific Pluto aspects can describe surrounding circumstances such as cause of death.)

The big thing you've missed is that Venus and Jupiter are among the most common planets for one's own death. Numerous researchers have seen this. I first noticed it at the end of long illnesses: For example, with cancer a typical pattern is that Pluto and Neptune wear heavily through the illness (Pluto for having a lot of time to dwell on things, Neptune for the wasting and weakening and often chemo etc.); then, just before death, those pull back and Venus and Jupiter swoop in for, er, a "happy ending." It is at least the final relief (often with morphine levels increased) and generally a peaceful going.

But besides those, Jupiter especially (and Venus secondarily) is common for death - some excellent investigators like Dennis Elwell have gone so far as to consider it the primary planet of death itself! The basis of this is observation, but there has been a lot of discussion in the astrological preses over the last 70 years or so about the "why." Besides the issue of funerals (religious rites) and flowers and so forth, there are eulogies and public honoring and gathering of family - the way to understand it, I think, is to imagine the person is alive and all the same things are happening except embalming and burial or cremation - in that picture, they are possibly more honored, more partied, spoken well of etc. unlike almost any other point in their life.
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Re: DEATH

Post by Arena » Wed May 08, 2019 12:28 pm

The big thing you've missed is that Venus and Jupiter are among the most common planets for one's own death.
No I didn't miss that. I've seen it mentioned and I consider it the same way as you and what I said above about Venus, it is simply the expression of love and faith connected to death. But I will never consider it the trigger for death. Death can only happen when one's human body is weakened in one way or another. Venus and Jupiter don't do that. They bring the love and harmony to the person who is dying... as you said, perhaps the "happy ending" and the joy that the person experiences when "walking" into the light, the beauty of being free from the human body and the love the family and friends express at the same time.

I truly believe that death is a very beautiful and profound loving and peaceful experience - and probably in may cases it's a relief from suffering.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 08, 2019 1:08 pm

I don't think any astrological factor triggers (causes) death. They just show the nature of the experience through which one is passing.
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Re: DEATH

Post by Veronica » Wed May 08, 2019 2:02 pm

You want to keep death simple?

Thats been a dream of mankind for ages.

Imo
There is nothing simple at all about death.
It has layers and facets and aspects and angles unlimited.
Each death
Like each each life
Is unique and individual.

And from what I understand about Nature, the minute you think you have it pegged, it will throw you a curve ball.

Scientists even have a hard time defining and identifing what constitutes dead. When the last breathe? When the heartbeat? When the brain? Stops?
Energy only changes form.

IMO Venus is misunderstood in its role in life and death.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Arena » Wed May 08, 2019 2:18 pm

You want to keep death simple?
:D

No that is not what I said. I said I wanted to keep the astrological approach, in this particular little research, simple.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed May 08, 2019 2:54 pm

Arena wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 12:28 pm
I truly believe that death is a very beautiful and profound loving and peaceful experience - and probably in may cases it's a relief from suffering.
From my experience working with people in hospital and hospice, that's a romantic idea that just doesn't hold up in real life. Most people don't have white light and shooting through a tunnel experiences a la "Life After Life." Most people just wink out. If they are resuscitated, they wink back. No loved ones to meet them, no white lights. Just poof. Gone.
I don't know if that's true of people who stay dead, but it's not like you can ask them.

It's possible Venus and Jupiter represent the 'relief' theme, and maybe the funeral, but most people go out fighting, physically if they're strong enough, plucking the bed clothes and struggling to breath if they're not. Death is not a spiritual experience, at least not on this side. Even suicides fight to hold that last breath.

I don't think there are any specific planetary indices of death itself. I think our transits and progressions, and our solunars, only show the conditions we're under at the time. I think people die when their bodies are ready, and I think people can know that ahead of time (although not much ahead) but not generally using astrology.

I think a lot of people who would have died 50 years ago don't die now. Some of that is antibiotics and medical treatment, some is seat-belts and anti-drinking laws, some is tornado sirens.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Veronica » Wed May 08, 2019 5:41 pm

"Death can only happen when one's human body is weakened in one way or another. Venus and Jupiter don't do that."

I disagree.
Venus and Jupiter can weaken the body in ways that can kill you.
People die from a broken heart.
Or gluteny.
I would also disagree that death can only happen when the human form is weak. I wouldnt say only...about anything regarding Death. It is limitless in my expierence.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Arena » Thu May 09, 2019 2:11 am

Ok, I know everyone has their own perspective on death and I am certainly not saying that I know everything about it, but it seems like some of the views here are not based on any kind of survey or research nor actual examples like I did ask for. Even though the research can also be very limited and we don't really have all the knowledge yet, they might give us some clues.

I was really not wanting to post this thread to argue, discuss or ask for your personal views on death. I fully understand and acknowledge that we all can have different personal perspectives and ideas. Mine may possibly be "romantic" and may be colored by my personal experiences, but when I said the above words about peace and light it is not in the beforemath, and in the struggle with dying - it is imp the aftermath and when death has taken over. But I simply wanted to do a small and simple astrological study to see what I find. Some of you may believe that it's not possible, won't reveal anything at all - but I still want to do it. You do not have to participate :)
Each death
Like each each life
Is unique and individual.
Actually deaths can happen in many different ways... but the above statement is not entirely true, because there is a huge amount of very similar reports of both life and death.
People die from a broken heart.
Well, how do you mean exactly? If the heart is "broken" that means the body has been weakened. If looking at this statement from an astrological perspective we could see that a person fell in love with Venus and/or Jupiter appearance in the native's chart somehow... but the "broken" heart happens later with another planet's appearance in the native's chart, f.ex. with Saturn or Pluto or Uranus or Neptune and they can bring about an experience that changes this love into a broken love/heart. A broken heart can change a person inner chemistry and neuro pathways, so it can have physical weakened concenquences.

What I mean when I say the body is weakened in one way or another when people die that is exactly and literally what I mean. It can weaken in many different ways. It can happen all of a sudden, in an instant with a gunshot, an accident, a cardiac attack, a blood clot (but that most likely has had a prelude even though it was not known to the person). It can also happen slowly and gradually with aging, with cancer, with diseases. It can happen as a suicide when the person has been "weakened" with a depressed state, brain or neuro chemistry imbalance etc. I certainly acknowledge all these different kinds of death and they are certainly not beautiful or romantic, but they are (imo) all because of a weakened state of the native in one way or another.

When saying "most people" experiences it would be great to see some research on that statement. It is of course very possible that some people who come close to death did not actually die and come back like those who actually died for a prolonged period of time like the ones in the researches, heart and brain activity completely stopped for some time.

I posted a Ted talk from a doctor that has dealt with death for decades, been next to over 2000 people dying and is talking about what hundreds of people have actually reported.

Here is another one who has researched for 50 years:
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-stu ... earch-nde/

Here is another neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist researcher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78SkTuk8Zd4

Here is also something new and very interesting (imo) from Science Daily:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 145511.htm

I just want to iterate and emphasize this again.
I really do not want to argue, discuss or ask for your personal views on death. I fully understand and acknowledge that personal perspectives and ideas differ. In this thread, in an astrological forum I simply want to approach it with astrology. Maybe I'll find something, maybe I won't.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu May 09, 2019 11:49 am

I don't mean to step on your study, Arena. I think it will be interesting. I doubt I'll be able to participate, since I don't have AA rated birth data for most people I know whether or not they've died.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Veronica » Thu May 09, 2019 2:34 pm

In regards to your question

How do I mean exactly ?(people die from a broken heart)

I mean....
Every planet has a shadow side.
And when you wrote

"Death can only happen when one's human body is weakened in one way or another. Venus and Jupiter don't do that. "

I was inviting you think that possibly Venus and Jupiter can do that.

I dont put it past any planet to have quailites that humans in our limited capacites can understand.

I encourage you to follow through on your scientific study. I too dont have the charts your interested in so I doubt I can contribute in the way youve defined your parameters.
I though would love to hear you thesis or proposal, as all expierements do have a spark behind them trying to resolve and issue or explain a phenomenon.

As an aside. I agree with JSAD. I watched a woman die 5 different times. Flat lined and was brought back. She had previously in her life been suicidal. She has a doctoral degree in Divinty and ministry and a Masters in Abnormal psychology and nursing. She also is a clan mother of the Seneca Wolf Clan. A real Shaman.
She fought tooth and nail and came back saying that romantic notions of death being loving and peaceful and joy are the biggest Lie the world had been told.

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Re: DEATH

Post by SteveS » Fri May 10, 2019 5:22 am

Arena wrote:
I posted a Ted talk from a doctor that has dealt with death for decades, been next to over 2000 people dying and is talking about what hundreds of people have actually reported.
Yes, this was your first link posted by Thomas Fleischmann, which I listen to with interest because of my close experiences with my Mother dying. My Mother lived alone for the last 50 years of her life and with me being the only child left to care for her in her old age, she made me promise not to put her in a nursing home and to be with her in her home when she died. She died under the circumstances of # 4 in Fleischmann's Ted Talk link, the option where no one in audience chose there way of dying when asked by Fleischmann. It was very terrible for her and me! My Mother asked me several times to give her something to end her life! :cry: :cry:

There is one part of the Ted Talk which really peaked my interest when the host mention a-lot of the people coming back from clinical death reported a relative waiting on them when they entered the ‘light.’ In the last three months of my Mother’s life which was actually living death, my Mother started telling me upon waking her sister (died many years earlier than my mother) Marie came to her—telling her it was all-right to let go and things would be much better. I found this very strange because my Mother was not close to her sister Marie. There were many times my Mother reported the same thing about her sister Marie visiting her when she sleeping.

Things got so terrible in the final few weeks of my Mother’s life, I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. In the past, I had a-lot of luck dealing with psychics mainly in crises periods pertaining to my economic survival, so I though I would go to a psychic to ask one main question: How much longer was my Mother and I were going to suffer from this dying experience? When my session with the psychic began, I told her I was there to ask several questions about my dying Mother. The very first thing the psychic told me was that her deceased sister name starting with a M (Marie) was already preparing my Mother for the passage into the next World. Needless to say, the psychic grabbed my full attention in a most shocking way by knowing what my Mother was experiencing with her sister Marie visiting her several times during my Mother’s sleeping. The psychic went on to tell me my Mother would pass in about 10 weeks, but would be in a-lot of pain, and for me to prepare for the pain my Mother would experience. I worked closely with Hospice making sure my Mother could experience little pain as possible.

Arena, my Mother does not have an AA rated time but you should be able to accumulate lots of AA rated times on Astro.com and times of death with famous people on Wikipedia for your study. I know this with my close personal life experiences with my dying Mother and the psychic: There is definitely another World we pass- into upon death!!! No doubts.

Jim wrote:
But besides those, Jupiter especially (and Venus secondarily) is common for death - some excellent investigators like Dennis Elwell have gone so far as to consider it the primary planet of death itself! The basis of this is observation, but there has been a lot of discussion in the astrological preses over the last 70 years or so about the "why." Besides the issue of funerals (religious rites) and flowers and so forth, there are eulogies and public honoring and gathering of family - the way to understand it, I think, is to imagine the person is alive and all the same things are happening except embalming and burial or cremation - in that picture, they are possibly more honored, more partied, spoken well of etc. unlike almost any other point in their life.
Yes, before my Mother died I use to think the same Jim. But, I am now beginning to think that the benefics are more associated with death, simply, because, with death itself ‘something’ unique to our personal bodies/souls is passing into another ‘joyful/peaceful expansive' (Venus-Jupiter) World.

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Re: DEATH

Post by SteveS » Tue May 14, 2019 6:22 am

Arena wrote:
What do transits and solar arcs tell us about the death of the native?
As an example for this thread study with transits:

Doris Day died at 1:00 AM, May 13.
t. Venus 02,29 Aries
r. Venus 02,59 Aries

t. Mars 03,11 Gem
r. Moon 03,25 Gem

t. Nep 23,18 Aqu
r. Vertex 23,38 Aqu

There were no notable SAs of 0,90,180 to radical factors.

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Re: DEATH

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue May 14, 2019 6:43 am

That Mars conjunction to her moon in Gemini is particularly interesting for cause of death pneumonia.
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Re: DEATH

Post by SteveS » Wed May 15, 2019 12:33 am

Jim wrote:
That Mars conjunction to her moon in Gemini is particularly interesting for cause of death pneumonia.
Indeed, par-excellent planetary & sign symbolism.

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