Resurrecting Horary

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mikestar13
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Resurrecting Horary

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:48 pm

Jim made a comment in another thread about the position of the plants when the topic was posted, and it got me thinking about horary astrology.

First an acknowledgement: horary is a perfectly valid technique of divination like tarot card reading or crystal gazing. In this sense I have no dispute with it. I have no particular skill at divination, but I've been impressed by the work of some people I've known that do have a gift for it.

I'm discussing horary as a horoscopic technique practiced similarly to natal or mundane astrology. From what I know about it, horary in this sense seems pretty dead. Fagan admitits that horary may be perfectly valid, but strongly and very correctly advocates not using traditional horary techniques to read a nativity or a return chart. I have not read anything that suggests any kind of horary practice among siderealists.

But what kind of results would we get from a practice of casting a chart for the time a question is asked, but interpreting it with the proven techniques of sidereal astrology: Planets interpreted according to their intrinsic natures, not by what house their associated signs happen to be on. Primary stress on angularity and aspects, particularly with the luminaries and among foreground planets, etc. Might we have something genuinely useful to add to our astrologer's toolkit?
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:42 pm

I've tried this for dozens of years, on and off, with miserable results - but I'm willing to be shown what I've missed.

Charts for the time of a question will pretty routinely show the psychological state at the time of the question. (Just by nature of when people ask non-trivial questions, these charts usually show anxiety, concern, etc.) But, on the separate question of whether the chart - read as you described - also contains the answer to the question, I haven't found it to be so. In theory, the answer of every question is in the question itself; but that's philosophical theory.

The chart routinely shows the anxiety at the moment of asking the question. Rarely even the topic of the question, just the anxiety. I don't see that it shows the answer.

But, as I said, feel free to show me what I've missed.

PS - Sometime back, I settled into the view that there is no possible basis for horary at all (as astrology, rather than astromancy) unless houses are found to be of objectively valid (something I can't say we know to be true). This is for a couple of reasons. One is the simple, practical issue that one must be able, from the chart itself, to relate the moment to a specific topic and field of experience (life category). The other is a little more complex to explain, but has to do with horary arising out of a question precipitating from an inner, psychological stage to become (by being asked to another person) an event or action in the objective world, and therefore needs a parallel layer of the chart, representing the outermost, manifest, etc. Now, this kind of life-compartment, categorical framing is commonplace in mantic, divinatory arts, but nearly absent from psychological sciences, and I'm far from persuaded that it exists in astrology. It certainly hasn't been demonstrated with anything approaching the confidence of planets, constellations, angles, and aspects.

But, as I said, feel free to show me what I've missed.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:14 pm

mikestar13 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:48 pm
But what kind of results would we get from a practice of casting a chart for the time a question is asked, but interpreting it with the proven techniques of sidereal astrology: Planets interpreted according to their intrinsic natures, not by what house their associated signs happen to be on. Primary stress on angularity and aspects, particularly with the luminaries and among foreground planets, etc. Might we have something genuinely useful to add to our astrologer's toolkit?
More as an exercise than anything else...

The above pieces of a question (or, arguably, separate questions) finished emerging into the world by being pointedly asked by one person of another January 4, 2018, 4:48 PM PST, in Calimesa, CA. If they are multiple questions, they they violate a basic rule of horary: Ask only a single, clear, well-framed question. However, they may be parts of a single question, that boils down to: Is there validity to horary astrology performed using the same rules that Siderealists would apply to natal astrology?

The question emerged at sunset, with Sun 0°01' (a single minute!) from Descendant, Venus 1°20' below, and Pluto 4°30' above. Saturn is widely, but countably, on Westpoint (2°30').

Mike, I'm reading what's in the chart, right or wrong, so excuse and correct me if I miss entirely: The first thing that these placements suggest is that the primary character of the moment was social and lonely or isolated. The focus of a 61' Sun-Venus co9njunction on Descendant is clearly social, need for engagement with others, etc.; and Pluto and Saturn show the surrounding, supplemental tone. - It was a moment of wanting to reach out and connect.

It was also a moment primed for new ideas, since Moon (always important in horary, by tradition) is 0°59' from trine Uranus.

Adding your planets to an inside ring to personalize it a bit, we find your Jupiter just past IC, your Sun just past Zenith, so I conclude that this desire to "reach out and make contact" arose from feeling very good about yourself a few minutes earlier, perhaps proud of the line of thought.

The partile Mars-Jupiter conjunction is closely square your 21°50' Capricorn Calimesa MC, Mars by 0°08'. I'm not sure what this means. Perhaps it is industriousness? Perhaps you can shed light on this.

This is fundamental, sound astrology, using factors about which there is little reasonable doubt. But the big question I want to self-referentially interpret from this chart is whether such questions as you asked can be answered from such a chart, using the methods you suggested <vbg>.

First, can we discern the nature of the question? I'm not sure we can. Perhaps (stretching just a little on things that we have at least some evidence of some validity (while sticking close to historic horary's approach where possible), we can look at the Gemini Ascendant and see that it is a question of intellectual curiosity, perhaps a matter of science. Moon's closest aspect is to Uranus - partile and separating - so we can expect a Uranian topic that came to a head shortly before the question was asked. (In fact, this afternoon was a Moon-Mercury-Uranus Grand Trine, before Moon left Cancer and entered early Leo.)

But I can't get past the intensely social focus of the chart. It is not a chart of hard science. As an astrologer understanding your question, I would have to answer it from this chart, read this way, as, Positive results are to be found in the interpersonal connection of astrologer and client, not in an objective measurement.

It's hard to ignore that partile Mars-Jupiter conjunction, even in the background and with Mars debilited. Sun is closely applying to its sextile, and the Mars-Jupiter itself is applying, so we anticipate that this aspect shows the next actions to come for this issue. (OK, I'm stretching the rules of conventional horoscopy again, but I'm at least making fluffy clouds from real whipping cream <g>). It seems to say that there is positive action to be taken, something worthwhile from exploring it more fully to see what comes next.

In conclusion, let me add that one other thing that can narrowly identify the exact character of a moment sometimes would be midpoints to the angles. Sticking to a 90° modulo, this chart has Ascendant (and Sun, 01' away) at Ma/Ne and Ju/Ne. (Midheaven makes no contacts.) These suggest something fanciful, more than something substantial. If we extend to a 45° modulo, we add Su/Ve to Asc, making clear that Ma/Ne and Ju/Ne are social and convivial, not malicious or manipulative (as they can be). And, most interestingly, MC is now contacting Ne/Pl, which means there is far more to this picture than we presently see.

Ironically, if this is the correct answer drawn from this chart this way, it means that no, one probably can't get a correct answer drawn from a chart this way except as a social experiment; but there is unanticipated value to get from acting, for a while, like we can; and there are things here we don't yet understand.

I dunno... is that what you had in mind, Mike?
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:50 pm

Jim, your framing of the question is a very good expression of what I had in mind.

You are quite correct about the intense social outreach and the loneliness underlying it. The latter is constant except on days when Sue and/or Josh visit, but the outreach, not so much. Very frequently I just "lean in" to the loneliness and treasure my own company. But not today. A related example: today I have been particularly driven towards being extra sociable with the CNA's who tend my physical care needs.

I have also been particularly driven towards getting something done. I've been extensively working on my music collection including redesigning parts of the interface. Not social, but intensive mentally.

Your interpretations seem accurate to me, and your conclusions logical. So it may be that horary is still going to be astromancy, but by using a better astrology as the "calculating technique", we may have a better astromancy. Or we may not, but it will be a fun toy to play with at the very least.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by SteveS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:00 am

8-)

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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by mikestar13 » Fri May 18, 2018 8:56 am

I've been playing around with horary astromancy a la sidereal, and I'm kinda impressed. Especially because I have no real gift for divination. For example. I can read tarot cards mechanically, but the cards never "speak" to me. Sometimes a chart of the moment does.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 18, 2018 9:05 am

Lenny Marcus used to say that of all true divination he thought astrology was the strongest because the sacrament of mechanically calculating a chart required more energy, concentration, and commitment than other methods.

I'm sure that has weakened with computer calculations. There is ritual in calculating a chart by hand.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by mikestar13 » Fri May 18, 2018 11:36 am

I''m wondering if there isn't something that could be be done to have ritual in calculating a horoscope in the computer age something more interactive than just clicking a button and having the horoscope of the moment appear on screen. I need to think about this.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:25 pm

Years later than this thread, I should add that I've softened on my negativity on this and worked out a workable technique. In fact, Mike in this thread MIGHT have been the push that got me doing that. I'm currently reviewing various threads discussing horary on the site... some of the examples have been pretty straightforward.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by mikestar13 » Sun May 01, 2022 3:51 am

Planting a seed that bore fruit over four years later. Of all the words that pour out of me, that's something. Of course TMSA is also growing out of my torrent of words, but I'm writing the code. This is different. I moved the man I've named in the same trinity as Fagan and Bradley to reconsider a fundamental idea--that basic Western Sidereal techniques work in astromancy, I would assume rather better than their traditional tropical house oriented traditional horary.
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Where the horary failed (thank goodness)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat May 14, 2022 7:31 pm

Since the "rational horary" examples posted previously have seemed pretty good (albeit vague), I need to post an example of what seems an outright failure. (7:06 PM PDT today, my home.)

Marion was at work in Sherman Oaks today and leaving from there to drive two or so hours out near Riverside for a major event at her sister's brewery. Normally, she would have let me know when she was departing work, and been accessible along the way. However, I'd been unable to reach her for several hours. I've probably never had a single incident before of being concerned because she was out of reach, but she wasn't answering her phone or responding to other electronic efforts. I could track the credit card use to tell she had left work and soon after gotten gasoline. Over the course of several hours I called periodically, finally called the brewery and got someone who didn't know Marion and couldn't be budged to check with her sister (the owner). I could track her computer to here at home (yup) and her phone was untrackable. (What I suspected was that her phone had died, but there was concern that she'd been in an accident.) Her sister had recently relocated out of state (and was back for the event), and I discovered that the only personal number I had for her was a disconnected California cell phone.

Part of me knew that nothing serious had happened because (1) my new demi-lunar is mostly positive and (2) transiting Moon was exactly on my Saturn - a few hours of dread etc. But that really hooked me nonetheless (today is the exact 0°00' contact of a many-year progressed Mars trine natal Saturn), so I was close to calling the Highway Patrol. (Transiting Mars was also minutes from conjunct natal Moon, square SQ Moon, a day from square PSSR Moon. So, yes, I was inflamed.)

First, though, I realized the question "Is she OK?" had just gelled in my mind and it was worth casting a horary.

The chart had all the signs of being radical. Libra was rising with a Libra Moon risen a bit before - yes, the question was about my wife. The 7th House was the center of activity, with Uranus exactly setting - a breach OR a forthcoming revelation; except transiting Saturn was also exactly on IC, in mundane square to that Uranus and in partile ecliptical square to 7th house Sun. This looked like a negative, hard blow affecting marriage and home.

Recently past aspects (there were several) weren't clear about what would happen. but that 7th house Sun aspected all tree malefics (two of them partile), and Mars was 2° shy of aspecting the Neptune.

I had about half a minute to let this sink in, not quite enough to actually have a reaction.

Then she called. She was fine. She was at the brewery party where the noise was too loud for her to hear the phone. She hadn't called on the drive out as usual because she'd picked up a friend and they'd talked all the way.

The chart certainly caught my state of mind at the moment, and things that lasted longer than a moment showed stuff going on in my chart right now. But were I to judge this as a horary chart showing the outcome to the question... no, not so much. I'd say the horary failed.

Thank goodness.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by mikestar13 » Sat May 14, 2022 8:30 pm

Thank goodness indeed. I notice what the chart would have done were it needful would be to clarify your own state of mind. I really get what that feels like--indeed I have had moments where I expected the next news about Terry to be news of her death, as she likewise has had similar moments with me. Our age and state of health carry the possibility of any ambulance ride being the last.
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Re: Resurrecting Horary

Post by Veronica » Sun May 15, 2022 5:51 am

ugh, I hate those feelings of unknowing.

So glad your both ok!

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