by
Arena on Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:20 pm
I want to continue and I will experiment with using birth hour 23.20 using 7° Gemini for ASC and 19° Gemini for IC.
EP would be at 21 Pisces and Vx at 19 Virgo.
This will have to fit with Moon's progressions then, since they have to measure up to natal angles.
I will check those only to angles.
I see pr. Moon at 19° Sagi back in sept 1990 when I left my hometown to live in America for one year.
1997, June 21st I married (for the one and only time). Pr. Moon is at 21 Pisces (but that is also opp. n. Uranus).
2002 I don't remember anything significant for pr. Moon to ASC... although I think it was around that time that I started a new relationship, the first one after my divorce.
2003, Sept 1st I got my first purchased apartment delivered to move into. Pr. Moon is at 19° Gemini.
So the next question that needs to be answered is if some other significant things happened when the pr. Moon would have progressed the alternative natal angles at 11 and 23,5 Gemini/Sagi and EP 26,5 Pisces and Vx at 23 Virgo?
Nothing of that kind of significance happened around those times, except for one that I can see fit in Jan 2004 I see pr. Moon at 24 Gemini. In Jan 2004 I started my uni studies.
Of these progressions I think the rectified chart is a better fit.
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:00 pm
Next I want to see if the Moon's progressions show me anything when passing the relocated angles for the above mentioned chart.
Relocated chart to Rvk. with birth hour 23.20 would have rel. ASC at 9,5 Taurus and MC at 14,5 Sagi.
Rel. EP at 16 Pisces and Vx at 14,5 Virgo.
28/8/2000 had my first son. Pr. Moon at 7 Taurus (opp n. Neptune at 8 Scorpio).
Don't remember anything happening in late oct when that pr. Moon comes to 9,5 Taurus.
Pr. Moon to 14,5 Gemini - can't remember, but was dating again with that beforementioned guy in spring of 2003.
Pr. Moon at 15 Virgo in 2010 - went to my current partner's grandfather funeral and got pregnant with my daughter at that time.
Pr. Moon at 8 Scorpio when I moved houses and also met this guy that distorted my brain for a while. (N. Neptune is at 8 Scorpio as well). Don't remember anything at 9,5 Scorpio passing.
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:50 pm
Someone in this forum advised me to look at fast transits as well, such as Mars on possible angles for
rectification.
Well as you may know, Mars is currently at 8 Scorpio. Last night my partner got so mad that he yelled at me and slept in another room. (Added - he also got very mad last week when Mars was on his Uranus and touched my current SSR Moon-Saturn-Mars grand trine). I also got mad at my son at that time for doing pranks that got out of hand on his little sister.
Last time he got so mad that happened was first days of Dec last year, Mars was around middle of Virgo.
I remember distinctly one big row we had as well was on 14th July 2013 around noon when I was ready to leave him (the date sticks with my mind because that was the same day back in 2009 a HUGE fight happened between my parents and partner that marked the beginning of a long separation from them until my mother's death in Nov 2011).
14th July 2013 at noon there was a square from t. Moon at 7 Virgo to t. Mars at 6 Gemini and that is also touching my n. Pluto. T. Pluto was at 15°Sagi.
14th July 2009 at noon t. Mars was at 7 Taurus, T. Moon was at 16 Pisces. T. Pluto was at 6,35 Sagi. Pr.Moon was on my n. Pluto.
I have to be clear though that my man does not get mad very often although we can have quarrels sometimes
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:31 pm
Many people also recommend using the slow moving planets to see "hits" to angles. Pluto is currently moving through my angle area
so I have a chance to valuate this as it passes by ... but I know I also have to wait until it hits around 23-24° Sagi to see if something huge happens at that time.
I've already stated a few important ones above.
But I also have another good one. I've appeared in the media a lot in the years 2011, 2012, 2013, so I am not going to find every single interview I made there, they are simply too many by now. Not only local media, but also Spiegel, BBC, Le Monde and some American media as well. BUT I do think there are distinct moments in time that I can use and they are moments when special announcement were made and published by the media as well as one huge moment in time for me when I held a speech on stage for those thousands (and media appearance as well). Those kind of instances are all Mercury related, but this speech is also in my view Uranus related (rebel activist reformist). The announcements are also politically related so also Pluto related in my view (politics can also be Jupiter related as we know). To appear for the public can of course also be Sun and Moon related (spotlight).
Oct 1st 2011 speech: Mercury at 15 Virgo, Sun at 13 Virgo, Moon at 9-10 Scorpio, Uranus at 7,27 Pisces.
May 1st 2012 announcement: Mercury at 22,39 Pisces, Pluto at 14,32 Sagi and makes a grand trine to both t. Sun and n. Sun.
Dec. 12th 2012 another announcement: Lots is happening in Scorpio among a Moon-Jupiter opposition in the middle. But Mercury is at 7 Scorpio and Pluto at 14 Sagi and Uranus almost 10 Pisces.
So I want to also check if those years hold up in SSR symbolism to what happened, but I also need to ask myself the question if they hold up better than the recorded birth hour of 23.40. So I need to ask if those three years describe what happened and show some kind of spotlight as well.
So I cast SSR's for relocation for birth hour 23.20 (approx) for the years 2010, 2011, 2012 and compare them with SSR's for 23.40.
2010 should describe a child being born as well as me becoming a leader of a big organization and taking part in active reform group of people. (I think we must note that the nodes have been related to child births and personal relationships).
2010 SSR for a birth hour 23.20 makes a point of huge planetary symbolism on the rectified angles at around 8°Sagi, Virgo and Pisces with an angular partile T-square of Mars, Jupiter, Pluto as well as partile angular Moon (and natal Moon emphasized by SSR angle as well) and a partile Uranus-Saturn opposition in wider angularity. Nodes are close to rel. MC/IC.
2010 SSR for a birth hour 23.40 does not at all give us the same outcome as those are not angular - only has an angular Moon.
Z-an-Azi has that Mars-Jupiter opp and Ur-Saturn opp angular, much tighter for 23.20 than 23.40 (but not an angular Moon in Azi)
2011 is continued being in this leader position as well as losing my mother to cancer and then running for politics
2011 SSR for a birth hour 23.20 has a partile angular Saturn and Jupiter angular and angular Pluto on MC within 2,5° (ecliptically Pluto is right on the MC). It has a Moon-Uranus opposition angular, natal Moon on ASC as well and SSR Saturn square natal and rel. MC.
2011 SSR for a birth hour 23.40 has all those planets angular as well, but not partile as the rectified chart does. And Pluto is not angular except for the Z-analogue Azi chart.
Z-analogue Azi chart has angular Pluto, Mars, Uranus, Moon T-square with Saturn in the picture as well.
2012 I got a job as manager for a reformist political party and ran for them as well after that job period was finished.
2012 SSR for a birth hour 23.20 has Sun and Uranus angular and Mercury a bit wider. The angles touch important natal points with SSR MC at 15,45 Pisces, EP at 14 Gemini and ASC at 20 Cancer and nodes at 7,38 Scorpio/Taurus.
Z-an-Azi shows angular Uranus and Venus with a wider angular Pluto and Mars.
2012 SSR for a birth hour 23.40 has Sun and Mars angular with a wider Mercury and Pluto would be close to natal DSC.
Z-an-Azi shows the opposite, or wider angular Uranus and Venus with a tighter angular Pluto and Mars.
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:19 pm
I can see that I forgot to mention solar arc direction of angle to n. Mars. How could I possibly forget that?!!
For 23.40 birth time it would have happened around the age of 35. It could possibly fit with the year 2007 when I had an operation on ovaries...BUT I have to state that this happened in Ljubljana at a time when my SSR for a birth time of 23.20-23.24 has Mars partile angular on ASC ... so this is a hard one.
For a 23.20 or 23.24 birth time the s.arc IC would have passed by n. Mars at the time when the HUGE fight happened in the family in 2009 with parents and 2010 with sister (because of a rape happening) - the point of no return as the separation with parents lasted 2 yrs and separation with sister is still lasting. The solar return for 2009 for birth time 23.20-23.24 has the SSR IC on n. Pluto as well as SSR Pluto on SSR WP. (The SSR for a 23.40 chart does not have that Plutonic symbolism).
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby Jupiter Sets At Dawn on Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:42 pm
Arena, you don't think your birth time is off by years, right?
So I'm having trouble understanding why you are using solar arcs. If I were going to rectify a chart by a matter of minutes at the most, which I think is your case, I would skip natal directions and progressions, and work on lunar returns, SQs, PSSRs and transits alone. It's much finer grained, and that's what you need.
Make a table of events for which you know the exact dates and places, saving out three or four events to check your work later. Then cast your lunars, SQs, PSSRs and transits, using your current chart. For each event look at how much you'd have to turn the chart (not the planets) to make it "fit." Some will need to be moved forward, some backward. Don't prejudge. Just write down how many minutes change and the direction next to each date.
Average out the amount of change needed for each event to fit using each method. Average those averages, add or subtract that amount of time from your birth time and you should be that much closer. Check your new time against the events you saved out.
You can repeat this process with another set of events if you can come up with them. Be sure you have exact dates and places.
This is, I believe, the method Donald Bradley used to find the position of the SVP. You won't have as many events to work from as he did, but it should get you close to your goal.
Jupiter Sets At Dawn
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:15 pm
This is a known method of
rectification and I believe Fagan used it and the epoch idea from Alexander Marr.
Solar arcs is not rectifying chart years off
the method is moving the natal chart one degree for each year of life and see when there are "hits" to planets and angles.
Look here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW0G2S2Ti4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYMX9X2C1BQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNaFiCBvNk4
Fine tuning can then be done like you suggest, by casting SSR's and LSR's.
Not sure if I know 100% correctly how to do the PSSR.
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:17 pm
Cyril Fagan seems to have used similar methods to rectify his own chart. So I also read about Marr's method including the epoch idea. Although I am not certain I would rely on that epoch idea though, I thought I would share it with you since Fagan did use it (correct me if I'm wrong on that).
Alexander Marr said we should check our Epoch chart, which is supposedly around when conception should have happened, 270 days before birth if birth was natural.
The idea is that the Moon in the Epoch chart will be where your natal ASC/DSC is ... but the wholesome idea that I've read about from other authors is that the ASC/DSC in that chart should also fall where natal Moon is (although Marr seems to have not used that).
In my case this is Nov 6th 1971. That day the Moon moves from 1,25 Gemini at midnight and to 15,16 Gemini at next midnight. So it is the area my natal ASC is actually, rectified or not.
IF I go by the idea that the epoch chart's ASC or DSC should be where my natal Moon is, then I get these:
1. Epoch Moon at 7,25 when Epoch ASC at 25 Libra
2. Epoch Moon at 10,51 when Epoch ASC at 25 Aries
These two possibilities give birth times at 23.21 in SF or 23.22 in another program and 23.40 respectively, so by the Epoch method one of those is supposedly my birth time.
Quite interesting that those are exactly the two birth times I am looking into.
Marr's idea and Fagan's it seems, is that the Epoch chart should also respond to transits. I guess the only way to check those angles in Epoch chart is to check the MC angle, since the ASC/DSC would be at the same place as the Moon in natal, so that would of course respond to transits anyway. The funny thing about these particular birth times is that the MC would be at 8 Virgo or 7 Sagittarius and both of those seem to respond to transits and that may in fact be because the actual birth time is 23.22.
Anyway, I will have to explore this in more detail. This was just posted to share what I've found others have used for their
rectification.
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby Jupiter Sets At Dawn on Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:03 pm
I've read some tropicalists saying Fagan used a
rectification done by a tropical astrologer (Marr) in order to say nyah nyah, but I doubt that's actually true. It used to be kind of a parlor game among astrologers to give an approximate birth time and let friends practice by rectifying it, but I don't know if that's something Fagan and Marr ever did. I know Marr used a "precession corrected tropical" zodiac, and Firebrace called it "the little bastard" zodiac.
Fagan's birth time is based on his mother's recollection of his father entering the room at noon right after she'd given birth. He was a famous Dublin surgeon. The birth was recorded as 11:45 AM Dublin time, and lots of people get confused because that's not the same as London time or UT. There's more information in the astro data bank entry for Fagan.
Have you see this thread on
rectification or this one?
We're getting thunder-snow. It was 70+ yesterday.
Jupiter Sets At Dawn
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:08 pm
Yes I've seen three different rectified birth times for Fagan I think.
Solar arcs are used, epoch method and PSSR if I've understood correctly.
I've now explored Solar arcs and epoch and transits and a bit into SSR's ... but I do not know how to do the PSSR's. I am reading about the subject now and I found some threads in here recommending a program that calculates them, so I guess I must download that and try it out.
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby SteveS on Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:48 pm
FWIW,
I have no experience with
rectification except with my own chart from a birth certificate stating my time. My own personal
rectification changed my recorded birth time 20 seconds. However, if I had a list of reliable recorded times in anyone’s life for outstanding incidents, I would definitely include one of Fagan’s favorite methods for rectifications. Fagan explains from ‘Primer of Sidereal Astrology’ in Chapter 11, ‘Progressions of Solar Planets:’
The Arabic systems of progressions, “day-to-year” or secondary method has proved its worth. It has recently been discovered that planets in a solar return or ingress (known as “Solar Planets”) can be progressed by the secondary rate with very accurate results. On this basis, it will be rare that solar planets, other than the solar Moon with an average motion of some 13 degrees a day-year, will close to an exact aspect during the solar year. Experience has shown that the progressions of the solar Moon to the conjunction or opposition (partile) of any planet (natal or solar) during the solar year gives a very accurate timing for an event of the nature of the planet. Experience shows that the only valid aspects for the progressions of the planets of the solar return, known as “solar planets,” are the conjunctions and oppositions; zodiacal trines, sextiles and even squares do not produce noticeable events. This insistence on conjunctions and oppositions does cut down the number of solar returns in which these appear, but when they are present they are extremely valuable. These progressions of the solar Moon constitute an ideal method for
rectification, even when the birth time is unknown. A glance at the ephemeris at the time of the yearly SSR’s will show when the secondary progressed Moon is applying to the conjunction of, or opposition to, a planet (solar or natal). If we know the date of the actual event, we can calculate the time of birth that will bring the Moon exactly to the conjunction of, or opposition to, the planet on the correct date. The types of events signified by the Moon with the planets will be:
Moon-Pluto Disruptive
Moon-Neptune Mortifying or humiliating
Moon-Uranus Thrill or shock
Moon-Saturn Frustration, annoyance, depression, inhibition
Moon-Jupiter Expansion of feelings, success
Moon-Mars Anger, energetic action
Moon-Venus Pleasure, joy, ease, love, problems of relationship (if connected with Mars or Saturn.)
Moon-Sun Sexual stimulation, union or marriage, vigorous action
Moon-Mercury Learning, communicating.
* I do not know the best mathematical method for quickly calculating the exact time for an exact aspect with a SSR Moon Progression for
rectification purposes with a major life event.
Fagan discusses “secondary progressions” from the following link with other writings from his book ‘Primer of Sidereal Astrology.’
https://books.google.com/books?id=QO4x3 ... 22&f=false
SteveS
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:44 pm
Thanks Steve. I think this method is a good add into the
rectification and I am currently reading about it ... but the problem with this method is that it is PSSR that Fagan talks about and SF does not progress the SSR by this rate. Would be great if they add this method into their next update. Did any of you talk to them about it?
But Solar Arcs are also a good way to do
rectification, seeing when natal planets and angles "meet up" and if it does not fit with the planetary symbolism and events of that year, but maybe a year before or later or 1-5 years ... then you know the recorded birth time is a bit off.
Arena
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby SteveS on Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:02 pm
Arena wrote:
…but the problem with this method is that it is PSSR that Fagan talks about and SF does not progress the SSR by this rate.
The PSSR Moon PROGRESSED rate averages 16,33 per year, or about 1,23 per month.
The Moon moves with an average daily motion of 13,11 per day, which is the secondary progressed rate of our solar Moons for a solar year, or about 1.1 degree per month, used with Solar Quotidian (SQ) charts, not PSSR Moon rates. This SQ Moon rate is seen and calculated in SF as the ‘Mean Quotidian’ under ‘angle progressions,’ which is the same Moon progressed rate Jim uses in his SMA examples, and is the same rate Fagan used when rectifying a chart---not the PSSR Moon rate. You must have all the settings in SF correct to see the true SQ progressed Moon rate. If I am in error Jim will correct. So, Siderealists use two progressed Moon rates:
1: PSSR Moon, 16,33 per solar year.
2: Solar Quotidian (SQ), 13,11 per solar year.
You are correct: SF does not calculate the PSSR rate, only the SQ rate. IMO, the SQ progressed Moon rate is a superb progressed rate involving partile progressed SSR Moon aspects to natal and solar planets pertaining to outstanding incidents in our lives, but understand I have very little personal experience with the PSSR Moon rate simple because SF does not calculate this rate. Before Jim started this forum, Matthew Quellas taught me much Sidereal Astrology and told me the SQ Moon rate far outweighed the PSSR Moon rate for timing much more meaningful incidents in our lives compared to the PSSR Moon progressed rate. I strongly suspect if you take your birth times in question and thoroughly research your 'outstanding' life incidents to the day with the SQ Moon rate, and then rectify your birth time to when a possible SQ Moon conjunction or opposition aspect is exact for an event timed to the DAY of the event-- you will discover your true birth time. If you will go to the Topic ‘Horoscopes of Interest’ with Jim’s Hillary Rodham Clinton thread you will see where Jim states:
The strongest sign yet for an 8:00 AM time: At the time of the Benghazi attack (probably the worst day of her tenure as Secretary of State, including the death of a friend), she had:
20°00' Cancer r. Mars
20°32' Cancer p. Pluto
20°44' Cancer p. Moon
20°51' Cancer r. Pluto
You see, Jim is using Clinton’s secondary progressed Natal Moon rate (same as SQ Moon progressed rate) to help him determine if Clinton’s 8:00 AM birth time is correct verses the other birth time given for her of 8:00 PM. If I remember correctly a while back, the year when your mother passed away, you had a partile SQ Moon-Saturn conjunction or opposition with either natal Saturn or solar Saturn. What Fagan is teaching you with the SQ Moon progressed rate—rectify your Natal birth time making the SQ Moon-Saturn aspect exact on the day your mother passed away, and you will discover your true birth time.
SteveS
Re:
Arena's chart - possible
rectification
Postby
Arena on Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:30 pm
You might be right Steve that the SQ Moon is an even better method than the PSSR Moon - I do not know for sure, but it is worth exploring.
If I remember correctly a while back, the year when your mother passed away, you had a partile SQ Moon-Saturn conjunction or opposition with either natal Saturn or solar Saturn. What Fagan is teaching you with the SQ Moon progressed rate—rectify your Natal birth time making the SQ Moon-Saturn aspect exact on the day your mother passed away, and you will discover your true birth time.
Yes you are right Steve. The SSR the year my mother died had the SSR Moon progress to SSR Saturn on the day she died (for both birth times) ... and the SSR that year for a birth time of 23.40 has Saturn 2° from angular while the birth time of 23.20-23.24 has Saturn partile angular and Pluto angular as well. The year my mother died was an outstanding year for me as it was a very active political year of outstanding incidents and the birth time closer to 23.20 gives a partile angular Jupiter-Saturn opposition with Pluto on MC and Uranus a bit wider angular, which I find very descriptive. The lunar return for 23.20 birth time the month my mother died also has Saturn angular and a Mars-Neptune opposition in wider foreground, but the lunar return for 23.40 birth time does not have Saturn angular that month, only the Mars-Neptune opposition. So in my view both SSR and SLR for my mother's death are more descriptive for the 23.20 birth time. Yet the SSR Moon comes closer to Saturn at day of death for the 23.40 birth time ... so this event is not conclusive in my view. I need to explore a few more SSR's and SLR's.
I will experiment with a few SSR's and the SQ Moon.
How was it again that you keep your settings in SF for this kind of SSR progressions? Want to make sure I got it right before experimenting, I think I messed up the settings as I was trying a few different methods
Even though this work of mine ends up being just a verification of the recorded birth time, it is still worth doing