A double-Scorpio

[TheScales_BothWays]

Hi guys

Do you remember in my Co-Parans thread, I mentioned of a double-Scorpio man that I'm fascinated with? Well, I've found out his birth details:

(Let's call him Y, or YZ)
Date: 8th of December, 1999
Time: 4.25pm (16:25)
Location: Klang, Malaysia

So as you can see, his Venus-Neptune is partile angular - Neptune partile on MC and Venus partile squaring MC. And yes, he has those Venus angular looks: symmetrical, attractive face and some nice eyes. He is "cute" in a sexually attractive way. "Nice-looking." He is very dark-skinned but that doesn't affect his appearance in any way, and besides, I don't define beauty by skin colour anyway.

And with his partile angular Venus-Neptune being partile angular in my angles (Neptune right on the Descendant and Venus right on Nadir), I can feel his magical, sensual, "puff of pink-purple fairy dust" Venus-Neptune aura really strongly.

So yeah, I'm determined not to make the mistake of falling for a straight man again. I'm genuinely interested in just being friends with him, or at least with being a casual contact. (Okay I'll admit I'm being a little hopeful; after all I have Jupiter and Neptune angular. But this time I'm being realistic and would understand if he's not interested, that is if I bother to confess my interest in the first place. I already have enough guilt from tormenting a straight man to love me last year )

The thing is it's really hard to start a conversation with him. We've never even said a simple "Hi bro" to each other yet. The irony here is that we share the same friends, though I don't hang out with them in school as often as he does with them. (And oh, yeah, I only got his birth time through a friend of ours.) His friends greet me, him beside them, but he remains silent. Sometimes I glance at him and he averts his gaze or turns his head, not in a way that's discouraging though. When he glances at me I tend to do the same because of the shyness brought by the excess Neptune energy between us. But I think my avoiding his gaze is really bad because he might take it negatively as if I'm not interested communicating and acquainting with him. But he seems to show some care about me: on that day I had an allergic reaction, he was concerned about me and he told his friends to tell me to contact my parents, while I was just there beside him. When school ended (and I was already gone to the clinic) he asked my friends had I already went to get treatment. The next day though, he didn't ask me myself am I fine. Hmm. Well, I think he was just as concerned as how he would be if someone else fell sick or have gotten an allergic reaction anyway.

I would appreciate it very much if you guys could analyse our synastry, maybe give his POV if possible and (also, if possible) how to break this very thick ice between us, I guess formed by Neptune.

Lots of love and sorry if I seem shallow with always posting about men, attractive men especially

[By Jove]

What is your birth data, Scales? I will do the best I can with my meager skills.

[Danica]

What is your birth data, Scales? I will do the best I can with my meager skills.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25#p8390

[TheScales_BothWays]

What is your birth data, Scales?

Danica posted them for me above (Thanks, Danica! ) but just in case: 20 October 1999, 1.40 AM, Klang, Malaysia.

I will do the best I can with my meager skills.

You have so much knowledge in the traditional/mythological symbolisms of astrology. I'm very eager for your report.

[James Condor]

I have a double Scorpio friend, who was, is different. We don't see each other much anymore, he's busy with work and one member of our group, the glue, moved 3 hours away. But once I got to know him more, he became more of a human. He loved to drink and dance. And play video games. He was not very open, knowable. Easier to know by just observing. But to know his depths, forget about it. He is quiet, shy.

[Jim Eshelman]

With Scorpio, for whom everything (even nice things) is executed like a military campaign, I think the most important thing you need to know is that his silence, non-disclosure, etc. is a battle strategy. Scorpio does not easily disclose its weaknesses, and gathers all the information on others' weaknesses possible, and there is no "ammunition" like information! I think you can be sure he is watching you more intently than in your best dreams, because he needs all the "military intelligence" he can get on anyone in his environment - so he can be safe from them, and so he can act swiftly to escape or take them down if needed.

This is even more so with Neptune exactly angular. It is even MORE more so with the Venus-Neptune aspect which gives no small amount of social discomfort. And you seem to have missed that he has all three malefics foreground. I'm quite willing to go out on a short limb it's only a short limb) and say he's actually dangerous - emotionally dangerous if not physically dangerous.

You do seem drawn to conditions that will humiliate you and devastate you. I'm not judging - that's a fairly common sexual attraction profile (wanting to be owned, overwhelmed, ripped open, demeaned, utterly controlled of a specific other) - but I do want you to know what you're probably getting into. - There's no doubt that his sexual charisma and strong need and demand for frequent, repeated, intense sexual expression is strong, but there is equally little doubt that he practices poor emotional communication and fights dirty. If the chance arises for you to have sex with him, and you want to, then go for it, but I seriously doubt you actually want a relationship with him.

All of this depends on how you want to be treated, of course.

I would appreciate it very much if you guys could analyse our synastry, maybe give his POV if possible and (also, if possible) how to break this very thick ice between us, I guess formed by Neptune.

Lots of love and sorry if I seem shallow with always posting about men, attractive men especially

Oh, heck, you can get away with it. If I posted that much about sexually attractive women, they'd start calling me Harvey Weinstein (who, I know from personal experience, is really quite an aff).

[Jim Eshelman]

From your side, the quick-check shows his Venus, Mars, and Neptune both near your angles, his Venus-Neptune aspecting your Jupiter-Neptune. His Jupiter opposes your Sun. If he's willing to have sex with a man, then this aspect is consistent with his venting his hormones on you and fulfilling your fantasies. His Mars conjoins your Uranus (as it, slightly more widely, squares his), so one would expect he would aggressively surprise you and be "explosive" with you. (Remember that his Mars is part of a close Mars-Saturn square.)

Looking more closely - as if his chart were the moment of an event in your life - the partile "transits" from him are:

t Pluto sq. r Venus 39'
-- t Pluto oct. r Sun 20'
t Neptune conj. r Dsc 34'
t Jupiter op. r Sun 37'
-- t Jupiter oct. r Venus 22'
t Sun oct. r Jupiter 19'
t Venus sq. r Asc 11'

You're a good enough astrologer that you can look at these and see what kind of "event" to expect from this set of transits. I was quite surprised how singularly good it was - like a first sex experience (for example - one of several possibilities).

Flipping around to is perception, the quickie assessment (looking at your two luminaries, two beneics, and two malefics) shows your Jupiter-Neptune on his angles aspecting his Venus-Neptue - so you may be able to satisfy some of his deepest, most socially embarrassing fantasies as well. Your Sun opposes his Jupiter, which could be a basis of respect and actual friendship - I would read this as he does (or could) see you as "safe," somebody a Scorpio could trust. For the rest, flip the above transits around and they look like this for his experience of you as an event:

t Jupiter oct. r Sun 19'
t Venus sq. r Pluto 39'
-- t Sun oct. r Pluto 20'
t Sun op. r Jupiter 37'
-- t Venus oct. r Jupiter 22'
t Angles = r Venus, Neptune

[By Jove]

@Scales, my study is long overdue.

Scorpio boy definitely has Saturn on ASC and Mars and Neptune on MC, which bodes poorly for a long-term relationship. You also have foreground malefics; Neptune on DSC and Saturn on MC, so you both have all the malefics clashing in your synastry chart with square aspects.

Any saving grace? Your Sun and his Venus are conjunct with each other, and your Jupiter in MC opposes his Venus, so there is obvious attraction.

His Mars and Ouranos conjunct your Mars and Ouranos. This is neutral; both parties will "expand their horizons" by doing all sorts of new, interesting, crazy things not done before, giving room for psychological growth.

My verdict? Go right ahead with the sex; it will probably be intense and amazing. But getting closer, a relationship? I'd withhold for now. Dip your toes in the water first, cautiously; see how things are going before committing.

[By Jove]

With Scorpio, for whom everything (even nice things) is executed like a military campaign, I think the most important thing you need to know is that his silence, non-disclosure, etc. is a battle strategy. Scorpio does not easily disclose its weaknesses, and gathers all the information on others' weaknesses possible, and there is no "ammunition" like information! I think you can be sure he is watching you more intently than in your best dreams, because he needs all the "military intelligence" he can get on anyone in his environment - so he can be safe from them, and so he can act swiftly to escape or take them down if needed.

Reminds me of two Pisces Sun Scorpio Moon women I'm friends with. They even have the same birthday (April 13, 1990). Both had hard and violent pasts. Both are very warm and kind-hearted but also guarded and mysterious, and all that other stuff. One is obsessed with mermaids and the Ophiuchus zodiac sign. Another is into goth and anime stuff. One struggles with abusive relationships. The other has chronic illness so severe she is forced to live on welfare.

[TheScales_BothWays]

Thank you three so much, really.

I think you can be sure he is watching you more intently than in your best dreams, because he needs all the "military intelligence" he can get on anyone in his environment - so he can be safe from them, and so he can act swiftly to escape or take them down if needed.

Ah.

And you seem to have missed that he has all three malefics foreground. I'm quite willing to go out on a short limb it's only a short limb) and say he's actually dangerous - emotionally dangerous if not physically dangerous.

Maybe he is. A friend of his told me that he could be emotionally volatile but he rarely shows anger openly. He may take decisions suddenly and abruptly—sometimes he randomly skips a day of school or even goes home in the middle of the school day, his reasons are usually because of some health problem. He does have asthma though, and he's known to get sick every now and then, but going home because of an upset stomach?

You do seem drawn to conditions that will humiliate you and devastate you. I'm not judging - that's a fairly common sexual attraction profile (wanting to be owned, overwhelmed, ripped open, demeaned, utterly controlled of a specific other)

I do seem to be drawn into such situations, (Maybe it's my current Mars Return with Saturn and Neptune angular? ) but I really don't want to be owned, controlled and enslaved sexually. Even if I do, I'd like to reciprocate it back. I really want my relationships to be reciprocal for me to feel happy (and sometimes, safe). Actually this June I was attracted to a Cancer-Sagittarius guy but I was lucky that I had his friends describe him to me that he can be a snob and a total control freak which I too observed. His horoscope also implied the same. So you see, once I spot danger (or that I don't seem to like the guy's character) I step away immediately.

Oh and btw, if I seem to suggest I'm that type of person who likes to "turn straight guys gay", no, I'm not really that person. If I find a man attractive, and get to know he's gay, I would get 100% more attracted to him. Heck I may get interested in someone by just the fact that he is gay.

There's no doubt that his sexual charisma and strong need and demand for frequent, repeated, intense sexual expression is strong, but there is equally little doubt that he practices poor emotional communication and fights dirty.

Hmm I see. I thought his angularity of all the malefics + Venus meant he had a really bad childhood and some serious "bad luck" with relationships. A friend even told me he used to pursue a woman for a long time in vain (his Venus-Neptune). And like James Condor's experience with a double-Scorpio, I thought his Scorpio just hides the normal human underneath him.

From your side, the quick-check shows his Venus, Mars, and Neptune both near your angles, his Venus-Neptune aspecting your Jupiter-Neptune. His Jupiter opposes your Sun. If he's willing to have sex with a man, then this aspect is consistent with his venting his hormones on you and fulfilling your fantasies.

Not sure would I want just sex from him. Intense sex would be great but the empty feeling I may get from the fact that my body was just a vessel for him to vent his hormones on, and nothing more, would be very painful. I may get sexually active as I get older but I wish to first lose my virginity to someone whom I love (and loves me back just as much), if that's not too much to ask for.

His Mars conjoins your Uranus (as it, slightly more widely, squares his), so one would expect he would aggressively surprise you and be "explosive" with you. (Remember that his Mars is part of a close Mars-Saturn square.)

Interesting. So far no signs of any impending "explosions." Not sure whether does he have any gay tendencies/curiosity/fantasies in the first place, but he does have a close (1°17') Mars-Pluto sextile. I remember him mentioning that he doesn't "like art" so much because he doesn't think it's "manly." He seems to like wrestling (at least when he was 14 or 15) if you take a look at his inactive facebook profile.

Looking more closely - as if his chart were the moment of an event in your life - the partile "transits" from him are:

t Pluto sq. r Venus 39'
-- t Pluto oct. r Sun 20'
t Neptune conj. r Dsc 34'
t Jupiter op. r Sun 37'
-- t Jupiter oct. r Venus 22'
t Sun oct. r Jupiter 19'
t Venus sq. r Asc 11'

You're a good enough astrologer that you can look at these and see what kind of "event" to expect from this set of transits. I was quite surprised how singularly good it was - like a first sex experience (for example - one of several possibilities).

Boy did I forget to look at his chart as transits! Those set of transits look wonderful. They also look like marriage transits to me. (Or wedding night transits )
This just flips the whole thing over. Is he really dangerous, and if he is, is he dangerous to me? That Neptune on Descendant does make me feel cautious though for possible deception and disillusionment.

Flipping around to his perception, the quickie assessment (looking at your two luminaries, two benefics, and two malefics) shows your Jupiter-Neptune on his angles aspecting his Venus-Neptune - so you may be able to satisfy some of his deepest, most socially embarrassing fantasies as well.

Which is wanting to have sex with a male, I guess?
If it's BDSM, I won't be interested if he's not willing to reciprocate.
Could he be one of those types of men who would feel more masculine by being dominant over another man?

Your Sun opposes his Jupiter, which could be a basis of respect and actual friendship - I would read this as he does (or could) see you as "safe," somebody a Scorpio could trust.

Nice to see this.

For the rest, flip the above transits around and they look like this for his experience of you as an event:

t Jupiter oct. r Sun 19'
t Venus sq. r Pluto 39'
-- t Sun oct. r Pluto 20'
t Sun op. r Jupiter 37'
-- t Venus oct. r Jupiter 22'
t Angles = r Venus, Neptune

Oh you forgot my Neptune transiting his MC, "dreams of possibilities," as you've said in your interpretation.
Again, looks good but not as great his planets to mine. Seems like a pleasurable, indulgent day but a small possibility of getting caught with that Sun-to-Pluto and potential public embarrassment with Neptune on MC. Perhaps that's why he's remaining silent and observant.

Any saving grace? Your Sun and his Venus are conjunct with each other, and your Jupiter in MC opposes his Venus, so there is obvious attraction.

His Mars and Ouranos conjunct your Mars and Ouranos. This is neutral; both parties will "expand their horizons" by doing all sorts of new, interesting, crazy things not done before, giving room for psychological growth.

Hmm, thanks for your input By Jove.

If the chance arises for you to have sex with him, and you want to, then go for it, but I seriously doubt you actually want a relationship with him.

My verdict? Go right ahead with the sex; it will probably be intense and amazing. But getting closer, a relationship? I'd withhold for now. Dip your toes in the water first, cautiously; see how things are going before committing.

So this seems to be the conclusion of this synastry from both of you. Thank you both
He has no planets connected to my current Venus and Mars returns (though he had his Jupiter connected to my Venus return that ended last September), and in my upcoming Mars return in March 2018 he has his Jupiter somewhat on my SMR Descendant.
Meanwhile for him, I have my Jupiter-Neptune partile on his upcoming Venus return angles, beginning this 10th November, and my Sun's a little more than 3°from his current Mars return's MC. Any thoughts on that?

[Jim Eshelman]

There's no doubt that his sexual charisma and strong need and demand for frequent, repeated, intense sexual expression is strong, but there is equally little doubt that he practices poor emotional communication and fights dirty.

Hmm I see. I thought his angularity of all the malefics + Venus meant he had a really bad childhood and some serious "bad luck" with relationships.

The only thing a natal chart can show is the individual's own nature - not the world outside him or her. Yes, this can show how he tends to experience life, but that's secondary. Yes, in a sense it can manifest types of repeat events in that our failure or refusal to actualize strong parts of ourselves will result in the universe forcing us to experience them "outside" of ourselves - what we deny of ourselves 'projects' out onto the world - but that's tertiary. His chart is about him, first and foremost.

The angular malefics don't show a bad childhood etc. per se. Rather, they show that he has a nature that is best suited for dealing with difficult, conflictual world. Such people fee more "at home" (like the world makes sense and they can meet it) if the world is unpleasant and difficult, so (if that's not already their world) they tend to gravitate toward it.

[TheScales_BothWays]

The only thing a natal chart can show is the individual's own nature - not the world outside him or her. Yes, this can show how he tends to experience life, but that's secondary. Yes, in a sense it can manifest types of repeat events in that our failure or refusal to actualize strong parts of ourselves will result in the universe forcing us to experience them "outside" of ourselves - what we deny of ourselves 'projects' out onto the world - but that's tertiary. His chart is about him, first and foremost.

The angular malefics don't show a bad childhood etc. per se. Rather, they show that he has a nature that is best suited for dealing with difficult, conflictual world. Such people fee more "at home" (like the world makes sense and they can meet it) if the world is unpleasant and difficult, so (if that's not already their world) they tend to gravitate toward it.

Thanks Jim. I get what you're trying to say, and I can see how that wouldn't be compatible to me.

For everyone's information, I'll update that he (the double-Scorpio) dropped out of sixth form, since last November; before our first semester exams. Haven't heard of him since (well he came back for just a day, and he dropped out again). Lots of people think he dropped out because of his depression. His friends do say that he has a depression problem. Not to mention he had Saturn stationing on his Moon last year.

Anything that shows up in his chart regarding his depression? His double-hub luminaries? Malefic angularity?

[Jim Eshelman]

Anything that shows up in his chart regarding his depression? His double-hub luminaries? Malefic angularity?

A major depression disease is biochemical and not intrinsically situational (i.e., it exists independent of what happens in life, though what happens in life can affect it). There is also depression that is situational, as when attached to loss, or a character response to situations especially as a suppression or mismanagement of anger.

In his case, I suspect there is a lot of mismanaged residual anger. If that isn't expressed in some fashiuon, it just keeps eating the soul. His chart is consistent with having a lot of anger, having it blocked or mismanaged, and having a sense of having no particular power in his life. (This, of course, is only one way things could go.)

I wouldn't attribute it to double Hub per se: As a group, double Hubs tend to be among the most psychologically healthy of people overall. But I do get part of this from double Scorpio specifically, i.e., a character more driven by Mars than any other impulse - with the need to be aggressive, physical, competitive, prove one is best by knocking others down, need to control, etc. Put this with the Mars, Saturn, and Neptune angularities and you get a "life sucks and I'm powerless, even when I try to exert power it's not enough to manage it all" type. Mars-Pluto, nearly partile, is an aspect typical of unexpressed (and thus inwardly mismanaged) anger that builds.

[TheScales_BothWays]

Thank you so much Jim. This is really insightful.

A major depression disease is biochemical and not intrinsically situational (i.e., it exists independent of what happens in life, though what happens in life can affect it). There is also depression that is situational, as when attached to loss, or a character response to situations especially as a suppression or mismanagement of anger.

I understand.

In his case, I suspect there is a lot of mismanaged residual anger. If that isn't expressed in some fashion, it just keeps eating the soul. His chart is consistent with having a lot of anger, having it blocked or mismanaged, and having a sense of having no particular power in his life. (This, of course, is only one way things could go.)

I wouldn't attribute it to double Hub per se: As a group, double Hubs tend to be among the most psychologically healthy of people overall. But I do get part of this from double Scorpio specifically, i.e., a character more driven by Mars than any other impulse - with the need to be aggressive, physical, competitive, prove one is best by knocking others down, need to control, etc. Put this with the Mars, Saturn, and Neptune angularities and you get a "life sucks and I'm powerless, even when I try to exert power it's not enough to manage it all" type. Mars-Pluto, nearly partile, is an aspect typical of unexpressed (and thus inwardly mismanaged) anger that builds.

Again, this is really insightful. Thank you Jim.

I remember his friends saying that he doesn't really get that angry often. He gets moody, but usually doesn't express his anger. That did not feel right to me, knowing that he's a double Scorpio. But I went on thinking that this could be because of his Venus angularity. My bad.

I also recall that he's a huge fan of WWE. His old Facebook profile (which is now inactive) is filled with pictures of his favourite wrestlers, especially back around 2013 or so.