A friend's next SSR--interesting.

[SteveS]

The following link is my close friend next SSR. I note a partile Venus-Pluto cnj, partile conjuncting his Sun. This occurs in the ‘background’ of his SSR, which “is least able to manifest themselves”; but, we see strength with this partile aspect involving a light (Sun). Venus-Pluto symbolism, at times, represent certain intense stains with relationships. His all important SSR Moon partile cnj his Natal Neptune in his Natal 7th house (relationships). I always pay close attention to partile SSR Moons with SSR & Natal planets. I also note his p. SSR Moon, later in his solar year, will partile 90 his SSR partile Venus-Pluto cnj, partile cnj his Natal/SSR Sun. This p. SSR Moon has high probability for timing an 'event' manifestation for this SSR Venus-Pluto

Jim, you and any other members offer your comments/opinions for all our possible learning curves with Jim’s SSR’s teachings.

https://imgur.com/a/zGV72

In Jim’s book ‘Interpreting Solar Returns,’ he teaches us to first read the SSR as a stand-alone chart, and then bi-wheel with Natal looking for clues to see how the native may react to the stand alone SSR. The following link is the SSR (inside wheel) with Natal (outside wheel). His Natal Venus opposition to Natal Saturn-Pluto falling in the close SSR foreground (Asc-Dsc) axis appears to also be symbolizing something to do with a strained (Saturn-Pluto) relationship (Venus). Since I am very familiar with my friend’s environment, I already know he has to put-up with two other partners (Venus) in this 3-partnered business-- which at times—drives him half crazy. Both have history drinking problems, and one just “fell off the wagon” in very poor health, and has a history of bothering customers and employees at place of business, with his drinking problem.

I will report back when I learn of main manifestation (possible event) with this SSR.

https://imgur.com/a/1t9KL

[Jim Eshelman]

My general impression is that a new romance is a big part of the year, and it will be complex. This may, of course involve other relationships, like the business relationships, and/or it may involve loss of relationship along the way. And I agree with you that one of the major times it will erupt is when SQ Moon layers in on it.

There isn't a lot happening near the angles of this SSR. The Sun-Venus-Pluto is acutely background, but partile, and of course is part of the larger Pluto transit to his Sun that already has been shaking things up. At a quick glance, the only real angularity is the natal Venus-Saturn opposition. Venus-Pluto &c. in the SSR and Venus-Saturn in the natal speak more separation than anything; but I can't keep out of my head that his natal Venus is near Ascendant.

Furthermore, the SSR has a background, but very exact, Mars-Jupiter conjunction, and we learn what this will affect by noting it exactly squares natal Venus.

I suppose he could sleep with one of his business partner's wives, they fall in love, other people get upset, romance flourishes while others explode with a cascade of complicated emotions, divisions develop, and... you get the picture. I just made that story up, of course, but it does fit all the chart facts

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim for your thoughts, always helps me to see/consider more possibilities. Yes, that Natal Venus foreground and negatively aspected with Saturn-Pluto—we would have to allow high % that some type of relationship could be separated from my friend’s life.

Jim wrote:

Furthermore, the SSR has a background, but very exact, Mars-Jupiter conjunction, and we learn what this will affect by noting it exactly squares natal Venus.

Very interesting observation Jim, something I completely overlooked! The first thing that jumped into my mind with this partile SSR Mars-Jupiter aspect to SSR Venus is an outflow of capital to buy the stock from a partner who passes away. My friend always visits me every Dec to get his SSR’s readings (next week), and I will ask him: If he had the opportunity (Jupiter) to purchase a partner’s (Venus) stock from the inheritors at a good price—would he consider??

As far as a new love interest that would separate his present mate of many years, maybe, but I have my doubts being 70 . He has always told me his present mate will have to care for him in his senior years. His mate is 12 years younger than him and in excellent health. But you have prompted me to look at her chart. Will report back if I see any separating influences in her charts.

[Arena]

What an interesting plot you've come up with Jim Let's hope that is not the case

Well I will offer an alternative view since I do not see the same as Jim has offered as an option of possible events, although I do not discard it as impossible either since your friends' natal planets actually interact with SSR angles and it is the Venus-Saturn opposition on ASC/DSC and n. Mars square MC.

I look at the SSR alone in first round. Nothing on the angles, but one planet is in partile aspect to the angles: Uranus is trine DSC which is symbolic of some kind of change. We see that within the SSR, the Moon will move into opposition to that Uranus after it has moved past that square to the Sun-Venus-Pluto combo AND that SSR Moon will trine his natal Uranus at the exact same time, reinforcing the change factor by his reaction also being Uranian, possibly spontaneous, possibly travel, possibly sudden and unexpected change.

I also see a double Saturn symbolism with n. Saturn as the closest planet to SSR angle and then SSR Saturn is in partile aspect to EP/WP of SSR. I think this Saturn symbolism along with the Moon-Pluto might be indicative of loss.

I see that the Sun-Venus-Pluto is interacting with his natal angles. Certainly is a possible exciting and fateful love union when the SSR Moon comes into square. Ebertin says about this combo of Sun-Venus-Pluto: "strong excitability in love-life can easily lead to excesses. - A fateful love-union." (I think that can also happen around the age of 70, it happened to my father after my mother died).

That SSR Moon is conjunct natal Neptune, indicating confusion or dreamy/imaginative state or highly intuitive. Possibly this can be indicative of deception.

The SSR Uranus also trines his natal MC. And the Uranus symbolism is fortified when looking at his natal Uranus also in partile aspect to that SSR ASC.

Let's not forget that SSR Mercury close to natal MC. AND that Jup-Mars conjunction is almost exact trine his natal ASC! I think those three planets indicate an important business decision, possibly investment.

So even though the first glimps of the SSR does not show much since the planets are not on the angles, this seems like it could be a fateful year of change. Summing up, I do think there are some difficult events (double Saturn) influencing your friend, possibly in friendships or relationships and possibly a loss. But he will also start a fateful love relationship. After going through those difficulties things will change somehow possibly in his relationship status, his job/business or he will take a trip or possibly relocation (Uranus) ...and he will make an important business or investment decision. Maybe he will relocate or travel because of all this.

[Jim Eshelman]

Trines to angles are balderdash. They don't exist. No aspects to angles exist.

[Arena]

No aspects to angles exist.

Well they do in my world

IF angles exist in a chart, then they can also be aspected by planets. IF angles are trivial or unimportant, then we should not look at any aspects to them, not even conjunctions. IF so then we should ONLY look at aspects between planets.

IMO conjunctions to angles exist and are very powerful when partile. Squares to angles exist and are also powerful. I believe trines to angles are also important, especially when reinforced by a progressed Moon aspect - although different from conj. sq.

I don't think any evidence exists to state that no aspects to angles exist.

But let's just agree to disagree on that one

[Jim Eshelman]

IF angles exist in a chart, then they can also be aspected by planets. IF angles are trivial or unimportant, then we should not look at any aspects to them, not even conjunctions. IF so then we should ONLY look at aspects between planets.

That logic doesn't hold unless angles are the same kind of thing that planets are. Angles are places that are occupied - places where planets are (or are not, or are near, or whatever). "Squares to angles" work because they are all other angles (e.g., "squares to the Ascendant" are ecliptical conjunction with the Zenith or Nadir).

I don't think any evidence exists to state that no aspects to angles exist.

The correct approach is not to rely on something until there is evidence that it does work. It's very difficult to prove non-existence (two dodos on an uncharted island might exist). But the main thing is that there is no reliable evidence that they do exist.

That's the arguement I'd rely on, though, also, my own anecdotal observations have confirmed repeatedly over the years that trines and sextiles to Ascendant and Midheaven can't be relied on. Though I've seen this in thousands of situations, all you really need to persuade you is knowing that I have Venus, Jupiter, and Uranus closely sextile Ascendant, and I am obviously not much of a charmer

If you rely on stuff that doesn't exist, you increase the chance that you will come to wrong conclusions.

[Arena]

Though I've seen this in thousands of situations, all you really need to persuade you is knowing that I have Venus, Jupiter, and Uranus closely sextile Ascendant, and I am obviously not much of a charmer

Hahahaha!
Well, I never met you so I don't know if you are a charmer. Can't judge that from a forum. Also, I focus more on trines than I do sextiles, so I would say that your Venus, Jup+Ur all trine your DSC which might bring you lots of luck with other people (7th house), in all kinds of partnerships and your wife might actually be the real charmer

Angles are places that are occupied - places where planets are (or are not, or are near, or whatever). "Squares to angles" work because they are all other angles (e.g., "squares to the Ascendant" are ecliptical conjunction with the Zenith or Nadir).

Yes we all know that and I've added discussions about the importance of the Vx as well since I've seen evidence of it acting as an angle in natal charts. Whether planets can cast an aspect on to those places or not has not been answered by substantial evidence (which is mostly lacking in all astrology, although some important attempts have indeed been made).

I guess I am an eclectic. I've gathered all kind of information from many different sources about astrology and I think that there is something to what the Indians say about the houses being whole signs and that their aspects actually work, which includes the trine. The trine is to them a supportive aspect, so having benefics aspect your 1st house, 7th, (ASC/DSC), 4th and 10th (MC/IC) by a trine aspect is believed to be very beneficial. I myself do not have conclusive evidence from thousands of charts as would be required but have seen Vedic astrologers bring very good supportive arguments to their astrology so I won't discard that for now. If I totally discard stuff that does exist and is of importance, I may come to wrong conclusions. I might come to another conclusion later in my life, but for now I do think trines are important aspects.

Whether my view on Steve's friend's chart will turn out to be relevant is still to be seen. But I can tell you that I am usually pretty good at predictions and have had many people write me to tell me how accurate I was, even about timing. Although the question in this case, if those planets actually are affecting the angles or not, might not be answered, since f.ex. Uranus is also going to have the pr. Moon aspecting so there is bound to be Uranus effect.

Since I am eclectic, I will happily agree to disagree with you Jim, until I have evidence for myself to either embrace or discard a trine aspect to an angle position.

[Jim Eshelman]

I am persuaded that the earliest form of 12-fold houses were whole signs. This doesn't mean that it's an accurate system, of course, but there seems little academic basis for doubt that this was the original Graeco-Roman form, and that it passed from there to India.

And, beginning with the Graeco-Roman forms and mostly persisting in Indian astrology is what I would not so much call aspects between houses, but the (similar but distinct) idea that the basic definitions of houses arise out of the same pattern that aspects arise from.

There just might (might) be something to that. It's fun to experiment. But I shan't actually rely on it until we have something like the kind of statistical substantiation that we have for the existence and parameters of signs, the nature and strength of angularity, the structures of aspects, and the basic natures of the planets.

[Arena]

And, beginning with the Graeco-Roman forms and mostly persisting in Indian astrology is what I would not so much call aspects between houses

I may have misworded that, they do speak about aspects between signs (but signs are also thought of as houses), and planetary aspects. I guess you do also know a lot about Vedic astrology. I enjoy very much the teachings of Marc Boney who teaches Jyotish & Jaimini. I recommend his videos on youtube if you are interested.

[Jim Eshelman]

Since the '70s. I used to correspond with Raman as a teenager, and was actually learning about Hindu astrology before I knew about the Sidereal zodiac per se. On a speaking tour in Florida in the late '70s, my host had me over to meet Jim Braha, which was a great evening.

Bradley also intrigued me further with the technical underbelly of Hindu astrology - the idea that there were promising systems potentially hidden under the surface - the idea that there are potentially valuable things buried under encrusted old patterns of use to where its practitioners might not even know what they have any longer.

One thing I know for sure is that in the practice of Hindu astrology, we find exactly the one "break its back" weakness we find in most Tropical astrology: The use of house dispositorships. Nothing has damaged astrology in practice so much as this. Get rid of that... back away and look at the structural elements afresh... and there are quite a few intriguing things that still need to be explored more thoroughly, I think.

[Arena]

Interesting journey Jim. I think that those of us who dig into a few different fields may actually find some real truths, but it may take us much longer because we do have to go through so many different aspects of learning before reaching our core truth. I've studied Chinese, Tropical, Horary, Sidereal, Vedic, Jaimini astrology and found some truths and some faults in all of them. Now I guess I will spend my old age in puzzling together the best of each system and find my own way to use that eclectic approach. Maybe I will have time to do some rigorous research since my partner kind of pushes me by saying it is pseudoscience and nothing at all could be proved with real and simple research (simple meaning not taking many different factors into the picture). Maybe I'll even take the Gauquelin data and use what I think is usable, sift out the data that seems most accurate.

Sometimes the house dispositorship can actually make sense and sometimes it doesn't. I guess it can depend on how you want to use it, how you apply it and what examples you have (convincing or not).

You may think of dispositorship differently than other people, but I can see that you are actually using planetary/sign dispositorship for the lumiaries like you believe they are the ultimate truth, proving the sidereal zodiac. When you say that the Sun will express itself differently when in Aries than when in Libra, you are actually using dispositorship in a way because you are in a way saying that an Aries Sun expresses itself a bith Martian (dispositorship) and then when in Libra it would express itself a bit Venusian (dispositorship). I have told you I am not sure this is really the case, so I am not sure yet that I would use dispositorship for any planet - but I have not discarded it yet because there are cases where I see some truth in it. Also dispositorship might only be needed to use for exaltation/debilitation purposes and nothing else. I guess I would need to go through those thousands of cases to find my core truth and I think I eventually will do that.

F.ex. in your own case Mercury is said to be the ruler of your lagna (ASC) and of your 10th house (job/how the world sees you). I see you as a very Mercurian person in your expression and approach and you are also a teacher, Mercury. You might say it is because your Sun is in Virgo, but that might not be the core truth at all. It might just be because your lagna is ruled by Mercury. In your case we can't prove this. Now your Mercury is conjunct Saturn, so that means discipline and maybe being rigid. Saturn in your chart rules 5th and 6th houses. Vedic astrology says those are; 5th for education/children/entertainment and 6th for lawsuits/subordinates/illnesses. I am not sure how you would see your self expression as Mercury conjunct Saturn and I do not know if you had to deal with lots of illnesses/subortinates, but I can see very strong expression of law and education through what you do, you are a lawyer (deal with lawsuits) and you are also a teacher (deal with education). Now those two planets are placed in the 2nd house (I guess you can not avoid doing 2nd house law matters in your line of work, so that would mean having to deal with money and property and possibly also family/child matters) and in Libra (sign for law). Virgo (your 1st) and Capricorn (your 5th) are both considered barren signs when it comes to having children ...but in order for me to prove that I would need thousands of cases with Virgo in 1st and Capricorn in 5th and preferably that those two dispositors aspect each other. In Jaimini using Lahiri or F/B ayanamsa your AK is Mars (planet with the highest degree, representing self) and is placed in 4th (home/property) - I do not know how that fits with you. Your AMK (job/profession), the Moon, is placed in the 6th house (law/illness/subordinates) so this reinforces the other way of Vedic look on your chart. Having Mars as your AK means that your karakamsa lagna (where AK falls in D9 chart) is Sagittarius. Your D9 Moon AMK is actually in Gemini in D9 chart and partile square to Mercury in D9 (again Mercury expression both by placement and aspect). Your AMK (job) is in 6th house in your D1 chart, having to do with law/illnesses/subordinates and possibly debt). However, IF I switch to some of the Galactic ayanamsas (Mula = root) then this whole picture will change ...OMG so many possibilities and so many different layers and approaches to astrology makes it difficult for even a KISS method person to choose a method to follow.

I think that sometimes all astrologers are prone to complicate things too much and maybe they are not on the right path when they do so. F.ex. using all those different divisional charts in Vedic astrology will most likely only complicate things with endless possiblities.

Sorry Steve that your friend's SSR thread goes into different directions. That tends to happen when Jim and I get started ... but I guess that can actually be the nature of a learning orientated forum to discuss different kind of approaches when it comes to charts.

[SteveS]

One of the main reasons I wanted to bring my friend’s next SSR to the forum’s attention is the fact it is an excellent example of Jim’s Solar Return teachings from his book ‘Interpreting Solar Returns’, (ISR). I also wanted to use my friend’s SSR, because I have known him for 50 years and am very familiar with his yearly psychological living environments. Hardly a week goes by with us not communicating. It has become obvious to me—one of the biggest burdens in his entire life is dealing with his two business partners who have a history of major alcohol problems. Actually, my friend has always been the glue that has held this partnership together. This business has become a very successful Beach Side Cafe with excellent food. My wife and I owe my friend so many life favors with his timely help for us throughout life, we actually helped with the opening of this business, and in the first two years this business struggled and nearly went out of business. The first two years of most new start-up small businesses is normally a struggle. If it had not been my friend’s timely financial assistance and very hard personal work (12-hour work days) this business would not be in existence.

Note: My friend was born with Neptune in the 7th house of relationships/partnerships, with a wide square to his Natal Sun. Only when I have known someone (friends/family) for a long time, do I pay attention to only house meanings, particularly natal house meanings; otherwise, house meanings have very little importance in the field of Sidereal Astrology. I am certain the main life manifestations of my friend’s Neptune 7th house involves his two alcoholic business partners, and imo, there is high % my friend’s next SSR is indicating symbolism with something to do with his business partners. But, we astrologers never know anything for sure when we are looking into the future with astrological symbolism, only TIME itself knows the truth of our future life matters.

Note: My friend’s next SSR Moon is partile cnj his Natal 7th house Neptune, and there is a partile cnj of Sun-Venus-Pluto in his next SSR, remembering his Natal 7th house Neptune is squared his Natal Sun. Jim teaches us in ISR: “Partile aspects in SSR, s ‘Reign Supreme.’” Jim writes from ISR:

This, then, isolates the Moon as the most crucial agent in a Solar Return, after the angles. SSR Moon aspects to natal and solar planets can never be treated lightly, even when rather wide in orb. So remarkable is this single factor that, if SSR aspects are nearly exact while foreground planets are not exceptionally close to the angles, the solar Moon can be considered the primary theme-setter of the chart for the year ahead, bar none.

This is a most potent clear statement of words by Jim and exactly fits with my friend’s next SSR. The moon is the fastest moving planet in our astrological system, moving app 13 degrees in a day, and my friend’s SSR Moon just so happens to partile cnj his Natal 7th house Neptune. We all know Jim is a true master when it comes to statistical research with the principles of Sidereal Astrology, and there is no telling how many SSR’S Jim had to analyze in order to make the above statement about our SSR Moons.

Our life’s Stage Play’s, particularly dynamic aspected SSR’s with Jim’s ISR teachings, are always pre-set with the Stage Characters before the curtain goes-up, relative to our immediate psychological environments. Here is what my friend has told me in the last few weeks. Bob (one of his business partners) has ran into serious health problems. Then, a couple of weeks later—Bob has fallen off the wagon and started drinking heavily again, going to the Café and irritating customers and employees. Is this SSR Moon ‘main-theme setter’ telling us the main character in my friend’s next SSR has something to do with Bob’s recent health/drinking problems? We Sidereal Astrologers never know for sure. We can only analyze with our studies (Jim’s SSR studies/teachings) endeavoring to counsel/advise when asked by our friends/family about their all important SSR’s.

Now, lets us again look what is going on with this SSR pertaining to Jim’s ISR teachings. Jim has already pointed out that t. Pluto has been sitting on my friend’s Natal Sun. This is an important slow transit. Being a close friend, I can only endeavor to ask my friend for astrological understanding: ‘What’s Going On’. And my best conclusion is the fact Bob (one of his partners) is becoming a burden (again) with his drinking problem, which imo, is indirectly caused by his poor health. But, at the exact time of my friend’s next SSR, something very unique is happening in the heavens: Transiting Venus (relationships/partnerships of all kinds) along with t. Pluto is partile cnj his Sun! As Jim has already pointed out—Venus is a strong signature for this SSR, foreground natal and solar return. It’s like the heavens at the exact moment of his SSR has conspired/TIMED and ganged-up on his Natal Sun-Neptune square with transiting partile aspects involving Moon-Venus-Pluto. Think about it! T. Pluto has been sitting on his Natal Sun and along comes t. Venus to form a SSR partile planetary picture of Venus-Sun-Pluto.

*** OMG, (SSR'S)! I just got a call from my friend about a very nasty incident he had with Bob’s girlfriend (Candy), with an e-mail, and then a very heated altercation with her in person. I will try to get the e-mail and post, and just learned that my friend is the executor of Bob’s estate. Hmmm

I will end this post here, but I think we all can see how the heavens with his next SSR are ganging-up on my friend’s Natal Sun-Neptune aspect involving partnerships; and, now a woman (Venus) enters onto my friend’s ‘Stage Play’ of life, and he says she is now causing big problems for him. I need more details when my friend visits next week.

[Jim Eshelman]

Several things for comment, just taking them in the order they appear...

Sometimes the house dispositorship can actually make sense and sometimes it doesn't.

LOL, that's a decent description of "not reliable" Randomly, anything we decide to use (even if it has no value at all) will seem to work sometimes, and seem not to work sometimes. (That's why anecdotal, case-by-case evidence is usually only useful to catch our attention, and of no value in confirming whether something is real and actual.)

I guess it can depend on how you want to use it, how you apply it and what examples you have (convincing or not).

I have no trouble with them (or anything else, for that matter) being part of a mantic (divinatory) approach to astrology - or, in that case, it would be called astromancy. You can use a horoscope illustration the same way that you would use Tarot cards, and nothing makes that approach zing like house dispositorships! But it's not astrology.

You may think of dispositorship differently than other people, but I can see that you are actually using planetary/sign dispositorship for the lumiaries like you believe they are the ultimate truth, proving the sidereal zodiac.

First, just to keep communication on track: I'm careful to distinguish between sign rulers and house dispositors. I get the point you're making, but the functions are quite different, and the use of different words keeps this clear (even if "ruler" is a bit romantic of a term; "sign cognate," for example would be more accurate).

And I don't consider that the "ultimate truth" or proof. That "ultimate" would be the numerous large statistical studies scanning possible zodiac boundaries that show that (1) there is indeed a zodiac of 12 30° zones and (2) it's boundaries are at 25° of the Tropical signs at present, 24° most of a century ago, 23° most of a century before that, etc.; plus the Sidereal ingress / mundane work that shows that the exact boundaries can be repeatedly verified within, at worst, a few seconds of arc.

But in terms of meanings rather than structures - vocabulary rather than syntax - yes, the sign rulerships and exaltations are the best single source of describing the natures of the individual zones.

When you say that the Sun will express itself differently when in Aries than when in Libra, you are actually using dispositorship in a way because you are in a way saying that an Aries Sun expresses itself a bith Martian (dispositorship) and then when in Libra it would express itself a bit Venusian (dispositorship).

I agree to the extent you mean what I just said above, but the word is wrong.

You are probably using disposition in the modern sense of "the style or characteristic of a thing." In astrology, though, it has an archaic English meaning that means more "to place, deploy, put it in its right functional context," as in disposing troops to a battlefield. This is what is meant by the primary function of "house rulers" (rightly "house dispositors"), the idea (for example) that if the ruler of the sign on the 11th cusp is in the 9th house then those things represented by the 11th house unfolds in terms of the context (or some other vaguer association) of the 11th house, e.g., that friends are mostly important to you for the purpose of sharing long-distance travel; or the ruler of your 2nd house is in the 12th, meaning (for example) that you keep your money covertly, hidden away; or the reverse, that the ruler of the sign on the 12th house is in the 2nd, meaning (just to give one example) that your secrets and covertness are all caught up in your idea of possession; or, for that matter, that the ruler of the sign on the 3rd cusp is in the 4th house, meaning that your brothers and sisters live in your house

This is a fun game, but nothing more. I'm certainly no stranger to it - I was a Tropicalist before I was a Siderealist, and this kind of routlette was routine. My favorite example is the first time I dug into Richard Nixon's chart (probably my favorite because I was correct - for no good reason other than intuition). In his Tropical-Placidus chart, I noted that the ruler of his 8th house was Mars, and it conjoined his 1st/10th house ruler Mercury + 4th house ruler Jupiter in his 4th house (the end of the matter) - "everybody knows" that 8th and 4th house connection usually end up being about death - opposite Pluto in the 10th house of the presidency in Gemini. So this was saying that he would die as president in his second term. But since "everybody knew" that presidents only die on a 20-year Jupiter-Saturn cycle that wasn't going to come due until 1980, he obviously wasn't going to die as president, so, instead, he would have something very much like dying happen, with similar impact, in his 2nd term as president.

As astrology, this is pure crap. My accuracy was a mix of luck, wishful thinking at age 18, and possibly a little intuition. Having imprecise, associative, symbol-rooted techniques does free up a different faculty of mind, just as in divinatory methods like Tarot; but it isn't astrology.

F.ex. in your own case Mercury is said to be the ruler of your lagna (ASC) and of your 10th house (job/how the world sees you). I see you as a very Mercurian person in your expression and approach and you are also a teacher, Mercury.

Yes, I can make the case for my own chart, especially with the "insider information" I have on being me And of course I'm quite mercurial since I have a Virgo Sun anyway - it's the heart of who I am. When you look at ranges of charts, it isn't obviously true, and often isn't true at all, that the Ascendant ruler, its placements and other associations has any kind of primal place in the chart at all.

You might say it is because your Sun is in Virgo, but that might not be the core truth at all.

The difference is, we have very substantial statistics showing that Sidereal signs are real and the Sun in them is distinctly valid - its placement in one location being highly distinguishable from its placement in another one of these zones. And, where specific zones (signs) can be associated with specific character or occupational traits, the results are a strong fit for classical descriptions.

In other words, we have way more than enough to justify relying on this, whereas there is nothing even remotely comparable about even house placements, let alone the secondary factors of the present discussion.

Now your Mercury is conjunct Saturn, so that means discipline and maybe being rigid. Saturn in your chart rules 5th and 6th houses. Vedic astrology says those are; 5th for education/children/entertainment and 6th for lawsuits/subordinates/illnesses. I am not sure how you would see your self expression as Mercury conjunct Saturn and I do not know if you had to deal with lots of illnesses/subortinates, but I can see very strong expression of law and education through what you do, you are a lawyer (deal with lawsuits) and you are also a teacher (deal with education).

I haven't had to deal with "lot of illnesses" - probably a typical number, much less than most people. (I gave a summary in a health thread recently.) BTW, if I were do use houses to discuss 6th house matters, one needn't go the route of dispositorships, there is a very simple statement that my Moon is in the 6th and (by house theory) places a particular emphasis there.

Now those two planets are placed in the 2nd house (I guess you can not avoid doing 2nd house law matters in your line of work, so that would mean having to deal with money and property and possibly also family/child matters) and in Libra (sign for law).

Not much, no. And just for clarity, I'm not a lawyer. I practiced workers' compensation law for a decade-plus, when it was still legal for non-bar members to practice it; and I work for one of the nation's largest law firms, but heading an IT department. It would be a fair statement, in all this, that I've made most of the money in my life in one or another situation connected with the practice of law (even though I worked at many other things and for more years of my life) and, were I to fully embrace house usage, the presence of Libra planets in the 2nd house would definitely hold my attention.

I can't take the time to go point by point through the rest, but my overall impression is: Wow, why would one want to go to such devious complexities to read a horoscope (let alone such unsubstantiatable complexities) when astrology can be so much more forthright.

There is also, in all of this, a huge psychological and philosophical problem: This house-driven approach presumes that we are fragmented people who are quite different in one area of our lives than in another. The much more solid principle is in the phrase, "How you are in one part of your life is how you are in all parts of your life." Not necessarily the details, but who you are deeply and fundamentally. It isn't just that I'm a Mercury-Saturn conjunction character in matters of 1st, 10th, 5th, and 2nd house matters, but, rather, than I'm a Mercury-Saturn conjunction character period - in all parts of my life. In those areas and in personal relationships, and higher and lower thinking, and my home, and so on. But the same is also true for my Venus-Pluto, Venus-Jupiter-Uranus, Mars-Neptune, and other expressions. I am all of these things in all areas of my life.

People aren't department stores, with everything tucked in it's own little section. We're all bargain basements were everything is thrown in one big pile at the same time.

I do need to get back to writing that thread on structural elements of astrology. It needs to be written, it's probably the most important thing I could write, but I keep putting it off until I can do it right. The main theme of it is that syntax matters more than vocabulary.

[Arena]

BTW, in case you didn't know Jim, I was not going through that example of houses or dispositorship because I myself use that in general or believe in that over another approach. It was only to give an example of how they (vedic) use it and how it can indeed oftentimes make sense. But I think you got the point even though you may have misunderstood the reason for it. Oftentimes I may put forward different points just to show a different point, not because I necessarily agree with it. I have not seen any research done on Vedic astrology to show that this method is not valid, but have seen countless examples of it being valid. So there is no need for you to prove a point ...I myself am more prone to just read into tightest aspects that will influence the person in all life. I don't compartmentalise people.

Like I've said before, I am not sure that the Sun sign in itself has any great significance in how Sun is expressed, I think it may rather be the Sun aspect that is more important in how it expresses. To me there is no substantial evidence of the former. But I am perfectly happy to disagree with other people on that point until I've found my own truth.

But hey

I practiced workers' compensation law

is very much 6th house orientation.
By illness I was not talking about you personally being ill, I was pointing out that Vedic astrology would say that the AMK as Moon in 6th would most probably deal with 6th house matters as a job. And then the IT is very much a Mercury expression (planet of 1st and 10th houses). But then they also use the D10 chart to see more about profession. And I think they sometimes complicate things too much. So do Tropicalists and Siderealists sometimes.

But I think that the Vedic may have some important points about timing. But so do SSR's in Sidereal. And so do Chinese pillars of destiny. So I keep my mind open to various approaches.

[Venus_Daily]

When I see Venus/Pluto in an SSR or progression, I panic a bit. Venus/Pluto popped up a lot with the first real romantic relationship I had through returns and progressions. It's an enthralling experience that takes you down a very conflicting path in relationships. For myself, this combination manifested in drama or emotional intensity, which I wouldn't mind having again.

[SteveS]

Venus wrote:

When I see Venus/Pluto in an SSR or progression, I panic a bit. Venus/Pluto popped up a lot with the first real romantic relationship I had through returns and progressions.

Yes, I would certainly agree with natives at a young age to experience similar ‘romantic’ manifestations with prominent Venus-Pluto symbolism, but my friend is 70, and has been settled into a relationship with his mate for years. We should always factor in age looking at planetary symbolism.
Venus wrote:

It's (Venus-Pluto) an enthralling experience that takes you down a very conflicting path in relationships. For myself, this combination manifested in drama or emotional intensity, which I wouldn't mind having again.

I understand Venus, Venus-Pluto would certainly jazz-up relationships, benefic or malefic. I think something similar is going to happen with my friend pertaining to a business partner. One of the business partners is in very poor health, and in the last month has had two bad falls, with bad bleeding wounds. This appears to me to be setting-up his SSR with something to do with ‘drama’ pertaining to his business partner, with Venus being a relationship with his partner and Pluto being drama with ‘emotional intensity’. Transiting partile Venus-Pluto cnj, partile cnj his Sun seems to indicate something to do with altering a relationship in a dramatic manner, as you stated. Then when we see his SSR Moon partile cnj his Natal Neptune in his 7th Natal House—again an emphasis to a close relationship involving Neptune. We simply will have to wait on TIME to tell us the truth of the matter with the symbolism in his next SSR. I appreciate your input and will keep us in tune with the happenings in his next solar year. I will check his ‘outstanding incidents’ SLR’s and try to remember to post in this thread later.

[SteveS]

I am going to post a couple of ‘outstanding incident’ SLR’s in this thread instead of the SLR Topic, because I strongly feel these SLR’s will manifest within the context of my friend’s SSR. I think it will offer good learning discussion.

First SLR, Jan 13, 2018:

https://imgur.com/a/x6ZWr

Got a lengthy phone call and got to leave—will continue later, but note the tight partile cnj of Mercury-Saturn partile cnj his SLR Dsc, a Paran in fact--very potent stuff symbolism with this SLR. Moon partile cnj WP in RA. Feel free to offer any comments now.

[SteveS]

My good friend with this SSR called me at 3:00 AM and told me his very close Brother died last night of a massive heart attack. Now we have the manifested answer for the partile Venus-Pluto cnj partile cnj his Sun.

Note my friend's current SLR with eclipto and mundo partile Mercury-Saturn cnj partile cnj SLR Dsc.

https://imgur.com/a/YwEYr

[SteveS]

Quotidians (daily charts) for the most part manifest no angular activity for a native with regular frequency, but for some reason, Quotidians show outstanding angular symbolism for ‘out of the ordinary’ events. Below is my friend’s Solar Quotidian SQ for the time of his brother’s death. Note SQ Saturn partile cnj SQ MC for the acute depression suffered by my friend on this day.

https://imgur.com/a/3FnMP

[SteveS]

Donald Bradley wrote in his book Solar & Lunar Returns”

Lunar returns, while more powerful in immediate effect, are subservient to the preceding solar returns. Therefore, we must look to the lunar return for proof that lunar returns usually “time” the major occurrences foreshadowed in the annual chart.

I basically agree with Bradley’s above words. However, I use my own refinement: When we see a very impactful Solar Return like the above example with my friend’s SSR, many times, an “outstanding incident” Sidereal Lunar Return (SLR) will time when the main symbolism of a SSR will manifest. As we can see with the above posted Jan 13 SLR for my friend, we see an “outstanding incident” SLR with a partile Mercury-Saturn conjunction partile conjunct his SLR Descendant. This SLR timed a 27 day period when my friend received communication (Mercury) of very depressing (Saturn) news (Mercury) of his close Brother’s death.

With my friend’s posted link SSR, we see a partile Venus-Pluto conjunction partile conjunct his SSR Sun. I was interpreting this aspect as the death of one of his business partners who was in very bad health. My friend though this business partner would surely die during his solar year, and his business partner may still die with his bad health condition. But, it was friend’s Brother who died. 20-20 hindsight now confirms my friend's SSR Venus symbolized a (loved one) and SSR Pluto symbolized the ‘stunning and shocking death’ (Pluto) of his Brother. I went to the funeral this past week and my friend was in a total dazed/confused psychological state. This is now clearly symbolized with his SSR Moon partile conjunct his natal Neptune. IMO, this is a good example of Bradley’s above words along with my refinement words,--- at times, a SLR can time the main symbolism of an impactful SSR.