Sag traits

[Soft Alpaca]

All about sag traits.

What are they exactly...

Expansive, culture oriented, optmistic, and influential (?)

I see the setting the arrow to the highest heights. This is the higher and higher motif. I must be an outlier, or Scorpio must effect me more than my chart even let's on because most sag traits don't describe me whatsoever.

I thought sags were a bit goofy and odd, fun and exploritve. Apperntly not (I can think of someone who isn't actually).

I would say according to what I'm picking up that Sag and Leo just don't carry much weight in my psyche.

(Hrumph Jim could you maybe have another look at my chart? The traits of my sun and moon are really just unnatural to me, I'm pulling more toward Scorpio and maybe Aries for some reason.)

[Jim Eshelman]

(Hrumph Jim could you maybe have another look at my chart? The traits of my sun and moon are really just unnatural to me, I'm pulling more toward Scorpio and maybe Aries for some reason.)

Since Sun and Jupiter are very close to angles, this is much the same as having a Leo and Sagittarius emphasis. Your Jupiter is triply emphasized, being angular, square your Sun mundanely, and sesqui-square your Moon ecliptically. That's a lot of Jupiter!

My best guess at the moment as that you will grow into this. You're 19. All 19 year olds on the planet feel more Scorpio than Sag (Exaggeration and over-statement, but roughly right.) You also have that close Moon-Pluto square co-existing with your solar and jovian sides, and quite contradictory to them.

But it's not that one replaces the other. These are all so strong that they all are part of you. I think by the time yo uare 30 and have concluded your Saturn Return, you will have a different view of yourself.

Meanwhile, take a closer look at your Capricorn Mars

[Soft Alpaca]

Capricorn mars I feel helps push the Scorpionic energy. I have this snake theme with it's me, sly cunning secretive and a pun this partially on Mars in Capricorn, it's a very strong placement indeed. I would say Capricorn is secondary in personality after Scorpio now that I think about it, going against social norms and the freedom motif are very synergistic. People say I look like a Capricorn or Scorpio and that kind of makes sense. I actually know many people my age who follow this tide pod gun control status quo jim, more than those who seek freedom in anyway and it's quite sad. We forget that thinking for yourself is freeing and many people my age don't do this either.

I guess I'll come back to saggitarius if it hits me later in life. I still tell people it's my sun sign of course but I always end up into a conversation about what really describes me as a person (people don't exactly beilve me when I read the traits off on sag so I have to explain further). As of right now I tend to lean toward Scorpio as my most overarching sign but that could change.

[Jim Eshelman]

You also might want to engage conversation with By Jove and James Condor, two Sagittarius on this site who are closer to your age.

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok. Thanks Jim.

[James Condor]

Raksasa

Looking to post about Sagittarius I found this post. I started thinking about how a Sag like myself , would answers question about the their own character. I bet we wouldn't give absolute, specific answers. We would talk about ourself and then a dissection or analysis of what was said would give more answers. And when just talking about it without answering specific question, you'll get more.

What really stands out to me is the drive of disciplinarian and reward-punishment happens in sync with quality/improvement and right/wrong. The key in interpretation is to not let other factors influence what you might think is the Sun sign itself

A Scorpio Sun might be what seems as 'improvement/quality orientated" but this is not the intent or drive. Their drive is thoroughness, analytical, and probably personal in a competitive way. They need freedom. Sag needs you to listen to them and tell them you understand even if you don't agree with them. Scorpio doesn't care if you agree with their views, because their views are so personal, organic, that there isn't an argument. Its a matter of you listening to their story. Sag will seem like they are forcing you to believe in what they see and they want you follow it. Scorpio doesn't do that. The make their own path even though they aren't proven to be true. Its personally discovered, not tribal. Sag will feel down when feeling underachieved, Scorpio feels down like,how come they didn't get what they want. Scorpio will bury emotions, anger, jealousy and they get them down b/c they need to be free of that. Sag shows its weakness more. You can tell there's something wrong.

What seems as optimism in Sagittarius is more feeling achievement, being proud, feeling like apart of something bigger like tribalism, tradition, custom. Libra is much more optimistic

I think Sags are goofy and odd too. So are Scorpios but they hide it more, don't give it away so soon.

[Jim Eshelman]

James, omw of the points you make above remind me of one of my favorite ways to keep Sagittarius sorted out: Manilius described them primarily as animal-trainers, especially circus animal-trainers, which spread into the Medieval depiction of them as school maters. These animal trainers and school masters were both of the reward-punishment, "spare the rod, spoil the child" type. And of course this (in a dark way) ties into the fundamental archetype of Sagittarius as the civilizing factor of the zodiac in the sense of the adult animal rising above and asserting reward-punishment dominance and control over "all the little animals." Here's a quote from Manilius on Sagittarius.

The double Centaur different Tempers breeds,
They break the Horse, and tame the fiery Steeds;
They love the sounding Whip, the Race, the Rein,
And whirl the Chariot o're the duty Plain;
Nor is their Humor to the Fields confin'd,
They range the Woods, and tame the Savage Kind;
Young Bears they break, and Tygers heats assuage,
And hear Young Lions roaring without Rage,
Discourse the Elephant, and Teach the Mass
A mimick Action, and a decent Grace;
To Act in Plays, or raise th'unwieldly load,
To Dance, and be the Darling of the Crowd.
For in the Frame, in double forms exprest...

[By Jove]

Sorry for the super late reply, Beanies. So much has been happening to me lately. It's thorough so bear with me.

All about sag traits.

What are they exactly...

Expansive, culture oriented, optimistic, and influential (?)

I see the setting the arrow to the highest heights. This is the higher and higher motif. I must be an outlier, or Scorpio must effect me more than my chart even let's on because most sag traits don't describe me whatsoever.

I thought sags were a bit goofy and odd, fun and exploritve. Apperntly not (I can think of someone who isn't actually).

I would say according to what I'm picking up that Sag and Leo just don't carry much weight in my psyche.

(Hrumph Jim could you maybe have another look at my chart? The traits of my sun and moon are really just unnatural to me, I'm pulling more toward Scorpio and maybe Aries for some reason.)

"Expansive, culture oriented, optimistic, and influential" seems to fit the bill. My mother and a female friend I used to be interested in (if you catch my drift) are both Sag Suns + Leo Moons. Both are generally optimistic and somewhat sociable. I would consider them "ambiverts". Their attitudes are conventional and traditional (relative to their culture). They heavily identify with their culture and religion. They are pretty conservative when it comes down to dating and sex. (Though my mom is liberal when it comes down to my dating and sex life.)

The female friend I used to be interested in (let's call her Co***) is very involved in her church and religious community, and there is a high chance she may still be a virgin. My mom has not been with a single man since she divorced my dad about 16 years ago. My mom holds a wierd grudge against Muslims because of Ottoman control of Serbia centuries ago, seeing Muslims as an inherently enemy tribe as it were. I would consider both Co*** and my mom to be liberal Christians despite Orthodox tendencies.

I am actually the outlier despite my "hyper Sag" chart. Maybe it's because, as Jim said to me a while ago, I have an "intensely Scorpionic" aspect to me. I more easily identity with my older sister Vc*** (Aries Sun + Scorpio Moon + Neptune ASC). It's probably because my Moon has strong Mars and Neptune aspects. My Mercury and Venus (the intellect and romantic feelings) have a strong aspect with Uranus.

I'd say "goofy and odd, fun and exploitive" is an idea you carry over from tropical astrology. I think it reflects Scorpio being satirical, humorous, and willing to push boundaries to new territory. But it is described in a "hyper-Jupiter way" (as it describes Tropical Sag) rather than a "Mars and Uranus way" (Sidereal Scorpio).

Scorpio is very different than Sag in a number of ways. For one, Scorpios (in politics and relationships) tend to break a lot of unspoken rules. Mn*** (Scorpio Sun + Cap Moon), a girl I had unrequited feelings for, came from a white Christian suburb. But she ended up as a Muslim, later a strong atheist, now an agnostic into goth, pagan, and New Age stuff. In other words, every insult to conservative Christian values. She reminds me a bit of the Twitch streamer Destiny, another Scorpio Sun + Cap Moon who made a 180 turn on his upbringing.

My girlfriend Su*** (Scorpio Sun + Aqua Moon) comes from China. But she is vaguely Christian with Buddhist leanings but sees religion as a tool the ruling classes use to control common people, but a tool that is generally good for society. She is dating me, a weird Serbian who currently is of little means, which goes against Chinese family custom of marrying an affluent Asian businessman. I suspect she loves me in part precisely because I am not any of those things.

[James Condor]

Scorpio sun/moon are usually quieter(low profile). They don’t volunteer rants, opinions like a Sag. They react more in a competitive way so instead of shooting the shit and spouting truths like a Sag, it’s more like an organic active/reactive, individual meaning/understanding, ( less loud than Sag).
Sag pretends to be above people or better than people and it’s all a theory but they act like it’s a true. Sag pretends to hide their insecurities but as an outsider sees them clear as day. Maybe, or it is, the pretense is the social ness Jim speaks of.
When a Sag is called out they their ego gets louder in the cover up. Scorpio gets quieter when called out but will find a competitive angle and revenge or evening of the playing field with a quick comment that really can’t be argued with.
Sag identifies proudly with the quality betterment of an entire category-tribe. political party, hobby, profession, belief. Scorpio identifies with an individual, personal, raw, action, understanding of self, inside- out
Scorpio wants to connect on a deeper level and I think cares more about being understood as an individual.
Sag cares to be seen as important, good, quality. Sag will make themselves look better. Sag will call out your quality. Scorpio will find holes in your personal character.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Scorpio doesn't telegraph his moves. He just does what he's going to do.

Sagittarius tells you all about why he thinks or does X, in great detail. He loves to talk, especially about himself and his motives and objectives and comes to think of everything as him explaining the better way of X to you, whether X is the meaning of life or how to cook eggs.

Scorpios don't chat about what they're going to do before they do it, leading other people (especially Sagittarians) to see them as mysterious although they're actually pretty straight-forward. By the time the Sagittarian has decided which pan would be best to use and announced his decision, the Scorpio has already cooked the eggs, eaten and is brushing his teeth.

[Jim Eshelman]

LOL. Paraphrase: Sagittarius is the master villain in '60s movies who stops just before killing the hero and explains his master plan and how the device works.

Scorpio just pulls the switch (or probably bombed the small target country rather than threatening it).

One just punches and your nose is bloody. The other loves the drama of wooing the moment of the punch.

Or something like that.

[Soft Alpaca]

Thanks for the good description of the difference between those to signs. Jsad I'll keep what you said in mind in the given case I act like the Scorpio more so because of my Mercury sign.

I dont telegraph much of any of my actions but I do go over what ove done after the fact.

As for culture I relate to sag very much on this. I would add the word roots into sag vocabulary. Even ancestrally focused I would also add.

I've learned that people think I'm harsh, not necessarily above them. (Mars-Mercury?)

I've come to realize how little signs play a roll, people always have trouble identifying my signs, and for whatever reason sometimes also my angulars. Aspects and planets with many aspects are what seem to be what people pick up on and what I feel an organic connection too.

For me Mars/Uranus [aspecting Venus and Mercury and in part Jupiter] and Pluto aspecting Moon energies are far more personal.

And Jim while sag loves that drama my Pluto cant do it, I just go crawl up in bed ignore the world. Though apparently my words hurt people like a bloody nose (I'd say they are just sensitive).

[sotonye]

I would say according to what I'm picking up that Sag and Leo just don't carry much weight in my psyche.

The traits of my sun and moon are really just unnatural to me, I'm pulling more toward Scorpio and maybe Aries for some reason.)

I'm not sure why no one has pointed this out, but Mars figures prominently in your chart by both sign and aspect. We would expect you to have the kind of Martial bent you do with Mars coarsening your manner of gregarious expression by its close aspect to Jupiter, and so it would be strange if you pursued Jupiterian themes in a way that wasn't rough, untiring, boisterous, and warlike. The same is happening to your Mercury, which is not only in Scorpio but receives a close aspect from an exalted Mars too, coarsening your manner of expression in a similar way, and giving a Scorpionic air. And about your Moon, it's not just a moon in Leo, it's a Moon in Leo modified by a close aspect from Saturn, the operation of the Moon is much different in this case, a bit darker, more rebellious, and also an important contributor to the obvious edge one can sense about you:

Proud, self-made. Dynamic, hardworking, persistent, self-driving. Encourages growth in others (expects them to do something wor-thy of their abilities). Usually emotionally reserved, private. Definite tendency (often unconscious) to seek total control of situations & relationships. Parent-themed issues (nourishment-deprivation, etc.) to work through. Judgmental (intolerant). Can be pessimistic, distrustful, little self-confidence, passive-aggressive, feeling inferior, anxious, depressed. Many enter religious or social work for mixed motives of service, self-immolation, and seeking control.

These qualities aren't very Leonine, and you aren't very leonine. Your chart describes you perfectly, but only when taken all together

[Soft Alpaca]

I will say that even though Mars lacks a luminary aspect (however novien Mars is 45 degrees from my sun) or has no angular energy, its loud. More sun than my angular sun (as it has no solid aspects I believe).

I am very Capricorn/Mars in action. Scorpio/Mars in love/aestehtics/sex and thinking/processing. Sagittarius in ego (I would contribute this to my love of culture and connection to my ancestors). Pluto/Saturn in my emotions and my adaptation techniques.

It does make sense when I take in account how contradictions work themselves out. The reason why Mars the may be loud is because the things it affects in my life outweighs my ego.

[sotonye]

I will say that even though Mars lacks a luminary aspect (however novien Mars is 45 degrees from my sun) or has no angular energy, its loud. More sun than my angular sun (as it has no solid aspects I believe).

If I'm not mistaken, planets not in the foreground but connected by aspect to a closely foreground planet are highly expressive, and I think it's also important to consider your angular Jupiter as not standing alone, as being completely Martian. Mars is strong as {bonk} in this way

I am very Capricorn/Mars in action. Scorpio/Mars in love/aestehtics/sex and thinking/processing. Sagittarius in ego (I would contribute this to my love of culture and connection to my ancestors). Pluto/Saturn in my emotions and my adaptation techniques.

This sums up the entire chart well

It does make sense when I take in account how contradictions work themselves out. The reason why Mars the may be loud is because the things it affects in my life outweighs my ego.

We have to remember that inner planet aspects are sort of the way we express the deeper parts of ourselves, the way express our entire chart, Mars is loud because it's the avenue your soul takes to express itself in some very important ways imo

[Jim Eshelman]

...your angular Jupiter as not standing alone, as being completely Martian. Mars is strong as {shag} in this way

That's not a way to determine planet strength (aside from the fact that Jupiter aspects two planets closer than Mars).

[Soft Alpaca]

I agree that's not measurable as strength Jim.

However Mars being exalted and Jupiter being (although its slow) in a sign that classicaly (and I still consider) associated with Mars, does apply a Mars undertone to Jupiter.
Pluto is also semi-square jupiter in addition to Novien Pluto being conj. Jupiter, in a sign where Pluto is dignified.

(Versus Mercury and the moon who arent in dignity like Mars or have influence in Aries).

As for the angular planets spreading that energy to their aspects Jupiter is toned down by Pluto (I'd say it probably balances Jupiter TRAITS to being semi-neutral in my persona) however maybe that energy does get shared through aspects. Pluto getting some because of the Moon, Mars getting some because of its exaltation and ruling over Mercury. Jupiter has angular energy but has more filters/opposition to run through.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I'm not sure why no one has pointed this out, but Mars figures prominently in your chart by both sign and aspect.

Actually, it's been pointed out many times. This person used to post to this forum under other names, and questioning his Sun and Moon signs is a recurring theme.

[Soft Alpaca]

That's the Pluto in me, both questioning and the name change. I've learned a lot here however.

Nothing is wrong with my chart I'm sure it's all there. However if I'm all here that I cant be certain of.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Nothing wrong with you either. You're all there, just give yourself a couple of years. You're still a kid. You don't even finish growing in height till you're about 25. So growing up in the fullest sense of the phrase. You got a ways to go.

[James Condor]

I’m thinking Sagittarius uses words like”better” as a word that is expansive and covers much ground. Mercury and or Saturn, or which ever other planet might say something more specific than ‘better’. Take this sentence that I would use; It’s better to go that route. The listener might be like-“uh, better how? What do you mean better?” Some signs of whatever, might use words less ambiguous. They might say, “that route will save you time , if coming from here and going there.” Say it’s true the route is faster. This is still dependent on road factors.

[James Condor]

Another example-maybe Sagittarius says-how did the bus like their treats? Instead of saying-how did the kids on the bus like their treats?

[Jim Eshelman]

Another example-maybe Sagittarius says-how did the bus like their treats? Instead of saying-how did the kids on the bus like their treats?

I don't get it - can you explain more?

[Avshalom Binyamin]

I think he's saying synecdoche is a common figure of speech for sag's.

[James Condor]

I don’t know exactly. It’s like words people use are more or less specific. I think AV B is correct-synecdoche. Nicely done AvB for that term. Didn’t even know that term existed.

[Soft Alpaca]

I use these frequently. However coming more from a capricorn standpoint I use lies of omission and as a tool to be deceitful while still aptly telling the truth.

Example I get handed a chocolate bar, I feed it to a friend and ask them how it was. Later jf I'm asked about the chocolate I give the answer that the person who ate it gave.

[James Condor]

I don’t get it? You actually feed your friend chocolate? And then deceitful where?

[Avshalom Binyamin]

It sounds like they are saying if someone asks them how the chocolate was, they would say "good" instead of clarifying that they gave the chocolate away. Literally true, and more effecient than explaining everything, but not the whole story.

[James Condor]

Most people don’t guess I’m a tropical Capricorn. They usually guess tropical Sagittarius first, then either tropical Libra, or Pisces, sometimes they get me right after 3-4

[By Jove]

Most people don’t guess I’m a tropical Capricorn. They usually guess tropical Sagittarius first, then either tropical Libra, or Pisces, sometimes they get me right after 3-4

People assumed I'm a tropical Cancer, Scorpio, or Aquarius.

[Jim Eshelman]

Most people don’t guess I’m a tropical Capricorn. They usually guess tropical Sagittarius first, then either tropical Libra, or Pisces, sometimes they get me right after 3-4

People assumed I'm a tropical Cancer, Scorpio, or Aquarius.

In other words, a Gemini, Libra, or Capricorn? They're seeing your Saturn and don't realize it!

[By Jove]

Why would my Saturn manifest that much? It's my Sun and Pluto angular and Mars and Neptune aspects that are the biggest with me.

[Soft Alpaca]

People think I'm (tropical) Aquarius or Scorpio and sometimes Sagittarius more often than not (some who truly understand capricorn sense that as well).

They sense my Mars, and Uranus energy I think (I try to real Jupiter a lot it's too off putting) (I'm a capricorn who has the qablah of intuition).