Stellium and CoE

[Soft Alpaca]

Do you guys think we could come up with general descriptions of people with Stellium or concentration in the signs? I know quite a few people with a Stellium who go by that sign and I myself have at least one Concentration of Energy (Mercury,Pluto,Venus, and some others (Chiron,vesta,3 Liliths,and Antares) in Scorpio) in my chart. Just a thought. I know it's difficult as the planets in the Stellium or CoE will effect it's traits but it's still worth a shot.

[Jim Eshelman]

Do you guys think we could come up with general descriptions of people with Stellium or concentration in the signs? I know quite a few people with a Stellium who go by that sign and I myself have at least one Concentration of Energy (Mercury,Pluto,Venus, and some others (Chiron,vesta,3 Liliths,and Antares) in Scorpio) in my chart. Just a thought. I know it's difficult as the planets in the Stellium or CoE will effect it's traits but it's still worth a shot.

I wouldn't count yours as a stellium (Mercury, Venus, Pluto - I suppose Chiron could be counted but, hey, Antares is always in Scorpio ) I'd like four of the 10 basic planets, and preferably one a luminary.

In any case, the stellium just emphasizes the basic nature of the sign. Here's a set of brief descriptions I wrote recently (for the Solar Fire interpretation module) to summarize an emphasis on each constellation.

*Taurus Strong
TAURUS IS charming, good-hearted, tolerant, forthright. Loves peace, beauty, nature, comfort, simplicity. Devoted friend. Willingly vulnerable, feels things powerfully. Erotic (sexually, sensually, philosophically). Prolific in all areas of creativity.

*Gemini Strong
GEMINI emphasizes speed, rhythm, variety (dispersion). More reason than belief. Courage. Rejects forced stratification: “What’s expected” often makes no sense. Play, youth; needs affection & connection. Music, arts, business. Mechanical, technical.

*Cancer Strong
CANCER THRIVES within imagination & complexity (vision; or lost in fantasy). Finds purpose in service & emulation. Persuasive, trusted, instinct for others' motives; sensitive, moody. Lives in mystery or its resolution. Is renewed by home or sanctuary.

*Leo Strong
LEO requires centricity & satellites (holds court). Casual dignity, simple elegance, innate flair. Authority, courage, competition, hates weakness, nurtures talent. Warm, loyal; must love and be loved (centricity, adoration). Purity, perfection (pedantic). Childlike delight.

*Virgo Strong
VIRGO IS strategic, tactical, analytical, logical, scrutinizing. Encyclopedic knowledge. Favors trees over forest. Innocent air (modesty). Courageous in word & deed. Service-minded, conscientious, efficient. Active toward social progress.

*Libra Strong
LIBRA IS relationship-centered. Enjoys beauty, comfort. Appearance-conscious (vain). Tease (self & others: entice, deny, gratify). Peace (appeasement). Justice (righting wrongs). Shrewd, intense, secretive. Feminine thrives better than masculine.

*Scorpio Strong
SCORPIO requires freedom of movement & thought, to be unfettered. Willing to rebel & be outlandish. Bold; moral courage. Slow to show weaknesses (collects others' weaknesses). Pragmatic, not theoretical. Favors action, abhors apathy. Phallic: Sexual volcanoes.

*Sagittarius Strong
SAGITTARIUS FAVORS social elitism, aristocracy, excellence, & quality. Ambitious, aspiring. Judges self & others. Belief- & values-driven. Respects cultural continuity & social rituals. Preserves status quo, heritage, myth when possible. Loyal to tribe.

*Capricorn Strong
CAPRICORN FAVORS survival and autonomy needs foremost. Humor, storyteller, prankish. Good resource manager. Struggles against tough odds. Discontent, combative, resists persuasion & conformity. Emotionally cautious. Extreme libido.

*Aquarius Strong
AQUARIUS IS scientific, analytic, inventive, pragmatic, non-dogmatic, unconventional, provocative, controversial. Broad interests. Ignores race, class, rank. Truthful, altruistic, helping. Haughty, unapologetic, but rarely pretentious.

*Pisces Strong
PISCES IS drawn to the foreign, exotic, wondrous, theatrical, mysterious, glamorous. Wanderlust. Eros vs. moralism. Visionary, romantic, dreamer. Hardened personal reality, stuck patterns. Slavery-bondage. Fickle allegiance, betrayal. Drama, acting, music.

*Aries Strong
ARIES IS contradictory, contrary, oppositional, capricious. Seeks liberty. Practical, resourceful, active, impatient. Imperial, political. Resents criticism. Bold with opinions. Romantically aggressive. Faithful, with a strong family sense.

[Soft Alpaca]

Thanks Jim. That's what I meant by CoE concentration of energy, its not a Stellium but it still is a theme of energy in a chart. I've seen some people call 3 planets in any sign a Stellium and while still of some strength, I wouldn't myself classify it in the same manor. However it still needs to be igknowledged in some way. Also I would almost consider a domiciled planet OR a luminary, plus two personal planets to make it count as a 3 planet Stellium (or any planets in a three planet Conj.).

I consider Pluto domiciled/exalted in strength in Scorpio, with two personal planets so by that standard above I would count it, however it's more correct to say a concentration of energy (in my opinion). Especially I have to consider it because of the influence of its effects in my personality, (however maybe mars and the moon are what actually makes the planets in the sign so active, Mars doubling there effect and the moon allows my Pluto to become hyperpersonal(?)).

[Jim Eshelman]

Pluto is so unlike Scorpio that I think it entirely misrepresents the planet or the sign to suggest it.

I also disagree (though less passionately) that lesser Coles need to be acknowledged somehow. There seems to be a critical threshold that flips a switch, and the mere presence of a planet in a sign doesn't mean a SIGNIFICANT presence of its energies in the psyche, especially if one of the major character drivers (Moon, Sun, Mars) isn't part of it.

Having, say, Venus in Virgo does not mean there is a significant Virgo presence in the character, so we're left with the question of where the break-over threshold is. Simply counting up bodies, (in the way that most Tropicalists count up planets in triplicities and quadruplicities) misses the point that not every planet is relevant to the core thrust of who a person is; and simply weighting them fails in this, too. (One could weight by, say, giving every planet at least 1 point; 2 points for Venus and Mercury; 4 points for Mars; 6 points for Moon and Sun, just as an example; but even this doesn't usually give relevant information.)

In any case, the above paragraphs may be of use to you.

[Soft Alpaca]

I know you say it because I'm young but I assure you it's not. I'm curious though how the freedom motif sign of Scorpio doesnt align with the rebellious march to its own drumbeat Pluto? I do think Pluto is hypersensitive I see its emotional influence in people (but maybe this is just for Pluto moon and Pluto Venus peoples).

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm curious though how the freedom motif sign of Scorpio doesnt align with the rebellious march to its own drumbeat Pluto?

I suppose it depends on how you define "freedom." I use the word primarily (and, specifically with the Scorpio description) to mean the open space, lack of constraint, etc. of Uranus - "busting out of here," room to breathe, etc. (Lack of these conditions cause claustrophobia.) A lesser form of exactly this (need to flex my muscles, have room, not be constrained or held still, etc.) is Mars.

A similar idea is the independence of Saturn: Need for autonomy, need to be in control of one's own life and circumstances, responsible for one's own survival, and unbeholden to other people's control of them.

'Pluto is none of these. It's more, "leave me alone!" Pluto just doesn't want to be messed with. It wouldn't matter if they are free or in prison as long as nobody was messing with them. It's "Let me be the way I am," not "Let me move where and how I want to move" or "Let me control my own destiny." Pluto is rebellious only when there is no real alternative to tearing something down; they'd rather leave everybody alone and just plain leave.

I suppose you could use that as one definition as "freedom;" but, if so, it's not "freedom" as intended when I applied that word to Scorpio. Scorpio's need for freedom is the variety described above as like Uranus or Mars.

[Soft Alpaca]

I myself let me am let me be myself, live my own life, or leave me alone and stay out of my way. I have a loose Mars-Uranus Conj. In Capricorn and Pluto aspects my moon. Pluto in Scorpio I belive is let me be, or I'll move you.

However, Pluto in Scorpio is strong because Scorpio (Mars) is passion while Pluto (though seeking isolation) feels everything, so it's more like passionately feeling everything to the point where it wants to be let alone. It takes the incoming frequency that Pluto always revives and turns it up. If Pluto is conj. Mars in Scorpio I've seen this connection overtake people's luminaries before, if they are angular it's even more strong.

Also I'd agrue the worst place for Pluto is in Tarurs. This individual would have a very rough time, trying to form their own beauty and philosophical views while hearing the frequency of the universe.

Saturn wants to be left alone to establish their own structure. Mars to fight their own battles. Pluto to have space to feel its own shit.

[Jim Eshelman]

I myself let me am let me be myself, live my own life, or leave me alone and stay out of my way. I have a loose Mars-Uranus Conj. In Capricorn and Pluto aspects my moon. Pluto in Scorpio I belive is let me be, or I'll move you.

I agree: That's Moon-Pluto. (It can't be Pluto in Scorpio, or everyone born for 16 years would be like that.)

...ile Pluto (though seeking isolation) feels everything, so it's more like passionately feeling everything

Pluto is one of the least "feeling" planets in the set. Maybe the least feeling. (Saturn feels more than Pluto.) - You have Moon-Pluto: It's not Pluto doing the feeling, but Pluto amping up Moon.

And I get that "overwhelm... wants to be left alone." Except, the way you describe it is much more Neptunian. Pluto's fundamental role is existential: To be, unconditioned by considerations, judgements, arbitrary codes, and he like (all the stuff that society and those in it tend to team up to lay on us). This existentially solitary & pure quality is Pluto at its truest.

Also I'd agrue the worst place for Pluto is in Taurus. This individual would have a very rough time, trying to form their own beauty and philosophical views while hearing the frequency of the universe.

I think you will find that Plutos sign has almost nothing to contribute to an individuals character. It is barely even useful to say it affects a generation, though it's quite useful in mundane astrology to show long-term mass-response patterns (like Uranus and Neptune). Pluto in Taurus is not a placement of "trying to form their own beauty" unless you think that phrase matches every brutal, slaughtering, megalomaniacal dictator involved in World War I - all of whom IIRC had Pluto in Taurus.

[Soft Alpaca]

So Pluto is like a energy shot? People in my generarion would then be obsessed with Scorpio because Pluto makes the Scorpio energy in there chart more active? Pluto also must darken the energy too because it sure doesn't make my Leo moon more sunny (quite the opposite really).

[Jim Eshelman]

So Pluto is like a energy shot?

Often, yes. I think the best phrase is "all or nothing" - It either forms an extreme expression of a planet it aspects, or shuts it down.

People in my generarion would then be obsessed with Scorpio because Pluto makes the Scorpio energy in there chart more active?

I don't think there is going to be an individual expression of the Pluto sign in someone's character. People living through the period (1993-2006) experienced it in various mass-mind ways. (For example, it was certainly much easier for The Powers That Be to force aggressive militarism while Pluto stayed in Scorpio.)

Pluto also must darken the energy too because it sure doesn't make my Leo moon more sunny (quite the opposite really).

It doesn't darken per se, no. In fact, Pluto leans benefic unless afflicted. However, with Moon it does dig up (roil up to the surface) subconscious contents, which will include a lot of shadow content in most people. - No, I didn't mean it would intensify by making Leo Moon more leonian, but it would do an all-or-nothing on Moon itself.

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok thanks that makes sense. I'm interested in energies in people for what ever reason, im still firmly against going sun sign as a generality. Maybe I'll go by mine as I get older I doubt it however. I was also thinking about making a post about hobbies for each of the signs...

Intrested in other reasons I might feel Scorpionic if a Coven isn't a good reason (I'm calling the CoE a coven).

[Jim Eshelman]

Intrested in other reasons I might feel Scorpionic if a Coven isn't a good reason (I'm calling the CoE a coven).

I think we first have to clear up whether what you are calling "Scorpionic" is indeed "Scorpionic." You have your own set of ideas about Scorpio, which may (or may not) be just your personal labelling system.

Suggestion: Instead of the label, why not itemize 5 or 10 specific, concrete traits that puzzle you in comparison to your chart. That could open things up by looking at what factors in your chart are responsible for those specfic traits.

[Soft Alpaca]

Why I'm an empath? Why my sun and moon signs don't describe the core of who I am? Why Scorpios I have met in my life think I'm a Scorpio and why I relate to them so well? Where does the fear of being trapped come from (trapped in society in small places or mentally trapped also trapped in routine)? What's pulling me in to the darker sides of life?

[Jim Eshelman]

Why I'm an empath?

That wouldn't be characteristic of Scorpio at all. It's typical of Pluto only because Pluto people are more open to "out of bounds" (bizarre - compared to most folks) experiences. You don't have any of the hallmarks of unusual sensitivity (they wouldn't be typical of your Leo, Scorpio, Sagittarius, or Capricorn emphases). The closest I see to this is willingness to live outside convention (everyone is empathic, ust just that many people block it out) mixed with heightened compassion.

Why my sun and moon signs don't describe the core of who I am?

Discussed above and in other threads. That's not really listing traits

Why Scorpios I have met in my life think I'm a Scorpio and why I relate to them so well?

Two separate questions, but I'll take them together.

Why do they think you're a Scorpio? I can't answer for their thinking. It's some idea about Scorpio that they have in their mind. - If you can cite specific traits they believe you have, we can address them but, how they label you in their own minds is kinda irrelevant to what's actual about your chart.

As for why you relate to them so well, that one's pretty easy, depending on when their birthday is. First, as a Leo Moon, you're going to relate more easily to all Hub constellations. Second, those very early in Scorpio will have their Suns conjunct your Venus; those very late will have their Suns conjunct your Mercury.

Where does the fear of being trapped come from (trapped in society in small places or mentally trapped also trapped in routine)?

OK, that one's easy. That's Moon-Pluto (among other lesser things). Notice that you described conceptual trapping, not physical limitation or constraint in a binding romantic relationship, etc. Moon-Pluto resists conventional conditioning and being made to abide by others' values and codes, is restless, doesn't like to be still for long, just doesn't want to be in conventional conditions.

What's pulling me in to the darker sides of life?

That's much more a Capricorn thing than a Scorpio thing. (Scorpio and, sometimes, Pisces brings this; but Capricorn is darkness champ.)

So unusual empathy, being trapped by narrow society or routine, and (vaguely stated) being drawn to the darker side are the traits you specifically cited. The first wouldn't be Scorpian anyway, the second is easily Pluto, the third is easily Mars in Capricorn (even a better fit than Scorpio). I also would find all this fitting better if you had more Neptune, but it's too far from any of the angles. (I find this more straightforward than, say, mentioning that your Novien/Navamsa chart has a Moon-Saturn conjunction. The fewer factors one can employ, the better.)

If we were to go to more obscure things, remember I mentioned the small planet Eris (farther out than Pluto) is on your IC. Tentatively, I have seen a consistent chaos & disruption theme in that. (Not enough to claim it's so, but enough to keep me interested.) This, or a related theme, could be relevant to some of what you are experiencing (which would prove quite interesting new information.)

[Soft Alpaca]

Thanks Jim. Seems like lot of my personality is very Mars and Pluto and that could be where further confusion comes into place. I just coincidently have a lot of traits described to Scorpio through other aspects and places in my chart.