Natal Mundo Midpoints to Natal Angles

[SteveS]

Jim, Matthew once told me his research with mundo Natal & SSR midpoints involving only the mundo Asc & MC reflected great symbolic results. I think Matthew allowed a 1.30 orb, but not sure. I clearly understand the mundoscope tells us exactly how close a planet is to the Asc & MC. Does the mundoscope midpoints involving only the mundoscope Asc and MC represent the same exact angular contacts for the true angles of the Asc & MC?

[Jim Eshelman]

I've completely stopped using ecliptical midpoints to angles at all. That doesn't mean I've proven they aren't valid, but that I strongly suspect they aren't valid.

To SMA work has demonstrated to me persuasively (from the beginning) that mundane midpoints to horizon and meridian are valid. I now doubt that the ecliptical ones are.

Or, to be more exact: Midpoints to angles should be measured in the same framework as the angularity is measured. Therefore:
-- Midpoints to horizon and meridian should be measured in PV longitude (mundoscope)
-- Midpoints to EP/WP should be measured in right ascension.
-- Midpoints to the squares to MC or Asc should be measured in longitude.

I don't have an opinion on the separate-related question of whether how to figure midpoint of a planet and an angle to something else, e.g., you Saturn/MC = Jupiter. For the moment, as a default, I'd take that ecliptically (not sure how else one would do it); but this is at least a question that has to be asked someday.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

I've completely stopped using ecliptical midpoints to angles at all. That doesn't mean I've proven they aren't valid, but that I strongly suspect they aren't valid.

I totally agree Jim, and your SMA work imo has allowed us great insight with mundo midpoints to angles. Although Robert Hand never worked with mundo midpoints to angles in his Natal work, he still had this to say with ecliptical midpoints, some to angles, some not to angles, and we should realize some ecliptical midpoints to Natal angles were the same as mundo midpoints to angles. Hand who worked extensively with Natal Midpoints said about "Direct Midpoints:"

I find that direct midpoints are as important as major aspects in influencing a Natal Chart. One neglects them at one's peril; if you use no other type midpoint, use these.

And note Hand did not say direct midpoints to the angles nor mundo midpoints to angles. I am beginning to believe even most Siderealists (including me) have been basically ignoring mundo natal direct midpoints to angles in a natal mundoscope, which probably are the most important aspect in a natal chart mundoscope when present. I will offer a couple of examples later to make sure I understand what Matthew & Jim have been telling me about mundo midpoints to angles. I am guessing I still don't understand/see everything Jim understands/sees about mundo midpoints to angles, because I am only looking at "direct" midpoints to the angles.

[Danica]

Very interesting!
This adds another layer to observe in relocated charts.
I've looked at exact dynamic mundo aspects in relocated charts, and I consider them valid; they are, of course, less prominent than angularity itself, but can be very useful for additional info, especially in cases where two locations have the same angularity.

[SteveS]

Excellent points Danica.

Below is link to my Mundo Natal Chart. Note: Not to confuse anyone—all sign symbols should be ignored. This is only a Solarfire Z Analogue Prime Vertical Mundoscope showing the true orb distance of my Natal Planets to the MC and ASC angles. I have got to learn the precise instructions for implementing Jim’s mundoscope which eliminates the signs for non-confusion. I use a tight orb of 1.30 for midpoints, and through Jim’s teachings, we should really pay attention to partile midpoints (1 degree or less).

https://imgur.com/a/q32In

Using this Natal Mundoscope for myself, Solarfire offers a list of my mundo natal midpoints. Solarfire notes a “d” next to a midpoint listing, representing a “Direct” Midpoint which Robert Hand equates as a major Natal Aspect, and I certainly know is true with my life being very important but hidden unless noted with software which list our mundo midpoints to angles. Note: in my above link natal mundoscope I have a Direct Midpoint of Venus/Mars=MC, a very important midpoint structure in my Natal Chart. Venus is app 34 degrees from MC as well as Mars on the opposite side of MC which equates to a Direct mundo Midpoint to natal angle because Venus/Mars=MC. Hand teaches us to never ignore a Direct Midpoint, and Jim’s work in Sidereal Mundane Astrology is proving certain kinds of Prime Vertical (mundo) midpoints to angles are very important, and probably other kinds of mundane midpoints involving angles in a Natal Chart are very important in describing our inner natures. Later, I will list Hand’s potency ratings for Midpoints. Since angles are the ‘cornerstones’ for Sidereal Astrology, we already know any Natal Mundo Midpoint structure involving a Natal Angle is important, more so, if the angle midpoint involves a light, which I will later offer an excellent example. Jim, if I have miss stated anything, please correct.

[SteveS]

Here is another great example for a Mundo Midpoint with a Natal Chart angle acting as a major aspect for the life of the native. Below is a link to the Natal Chart (Kelly) who has experienced 3 divorces and much trouble with men dominating her life in negative ways.

Note a mundo midpoint of Sun/Saturn=Asc. Ebertin says about this Midpoint:

Difficulties in the development of one’s own personality, the misunderstood person. (-) Separation.

Note also, her standard ecliptic Natal Chart features a partile 135 of Sun-Saturn with her Natal Venus opposed Saturn. We clearly see here her Mundo Sun/Saturn=Asc strongly reinforcing the malefic symbolic separating aspects in her standard ecliptic Natal Chart.

We all need to remember to check for any possible Mundo Midpoints involving Chart angles. It could be possible for certain Natal Charts, a hidden Mundo Midpoint involving a Natal angle could be the dominating aspect of the Natal Chart.

Mundo Natal Chart:
https://imgur.com/a/PhKEs
Eclipto Natal Chart:
https://imgur.com/a/mv4V6

[Jim Eshelman]

My chart has several midpoints centered on angles, but of planets already in aspect, which makes it hard to sort through. (Most things are at roughly 30° increments around my chart, including the angles.) But, keeping it simple, I have within 1° the following contacts ecliptically on a 90° wheel:

MC = Neptune/Pluto (0°03'), Venus/Uranus (0°50') Venus/Jupiter (0°59')
Asc = Venus/Uranus (0°16'), Venus/Jupiter (0°25'), Neptune/Pluto (0°37')

Same pairs, different orbs; and all three pairs are also in aspect (Neptune sextile Pluto, Venus trine Jupite and Uranus). I suppose one could argue that the Neptune-Pluto pair is more concentrated in me than in most other people born in the half century the sextile was close.

If I check it mundanely instead, there are no midpoint contacts to angles within 1° on a 90° wheel. Here are the midpoints (mundanely) where an angle is part of the midpoint itself:

Mercury = Asc/Mc (0°26')
Pluto = Neptune/MC (0°28') = Mars/Asc (0°31')
Venus = Mars/Asc (0°42') = Neptune/MC (0°45')

All are fitting, though the same facts show in other ways in my chart so one can't be clear about the effect.

Here is the same list ecliptically:

Neptu e = Pluto/MC (0°36') = Venus/Asc (0°46')
Saturn = Moon/MC (0°22')
Mercury = MC/Asc (0°18')
Venus = Uranus/Asc (0°57')
Pluto = Neptune/MC (0°33') = Uranus/Asc (0°44') = Jupiter/Asc (0°52')

[Jim Eshelman]

How about locally? Neither ecliptically nor mundanely do my Asc or MC have a partile midpoint contact o a 90° wheel. Some of interest that involve an angle as part of the midpoint are:

Ecliptically:
Mercury = Mars/Asc (0°16') = Neptune/MC (0°52')
Pluto Venus/MC (0°21')
Mars = Moon/MC (0°36')

Mundanely:
Mercury = Uranus/MC (0°24') = Neptune/MC (0°30')

[Jim Eshelman]

The only place I've ever been where just being there makes my skin crawl and leaves me in a state of quiet dread is San Francisco-Oakland. This makes no sense by conventional, non-astrological thinking. Nobody who knows me and the city can make sense out of this. Whenever I'm in that area, I psychically hold my breath and remain on my guard until I can complete my business and leave. (I've often left in the evening after a day's activities, rather than stay in a friend's very nice guest room until morning.)

Basic locational astrology gives no clues. Planetary angularity resembles LA, but less intense. No parans stand out that would describe it. It seems a puzzle.

Except...

Ecliptically, I have the following midpoint structures to my Saturn in San Francisco:

Saturn = Neptune/MC (0°28') = Mars/Pluto (0°34') = Mars/Asc (0°58')

Yeah, that says it rather well! My Sa=Ma/Pl adds Ne/MC and Ma/As! It pegs it.

Mundanely these don't exist. This supports my theory (my off the cuff theory, not one I'm attached to) that midpoints where Asc or MC is part midpoint itself (Ne/MC, Ma/Asc) work ecliptically. - Mundanely, I have only angles at Moon/Jupiter, which does not express my experience of the area at all!

[SteveS]

Excellent analysis Jim for added pondering/info for this thread, mucho thanks. Maybe some good food for thought with Danica points.

[SteveS]

Robert hand tells us astrologers not to ignore Direct Midpoints, if we use only "one type of midpoint", "use Direct Midpoints". Cyril Fagan, the father of Sidereal Astrology endorsed the use of midpoints, particularly with the angles of a chart. For some strange reason my life at the moment has been involved with very malefic relationship separations, lots of charts involving divorces. We all know Saturn symbolism is the par-excellent symbolic factor in a chart for all kinds of separations. Below is a Natal chart link for a friend/business colleague who has experienced 4 marriage divorces in his life. Note his Natal Saturn (separation) involves a Direct Midpoint with Venus (love) Caput (connections). Although we see his Natal Mars rising which certainly indicates a Mars theme, I think his Direct Midpoint of Venus/Caput (Lunar Node) nails the main cosmic aspect for his life of marriage divorces.
https://imgur.com/a/ShDsy

[Jim Eshelman]

Robert hand tells us astrologers not to ignore Direct Midpoints, if we use only "one type of midpoint", "use Direct Midpoints".

FWIW, I can't find any discernible difference between direct midpoints (conjunctions and oppositions - they're the same) and squares to midpoints. (In other words, putting it on 90° wheel.)

I do, however, see a bit of drop-off from there to the 45°/135° aspects (45° wheel). When I look at midpoint contacts in a chart, I start at the 90° for the primary hits. If I want more (usually because a planet doesn't have any midpoints showing; but also for more nuance), I'll drop down a notch.

[Jim Eshelman]

Below is a Natal chart link for a friend/business colleague who has experienced 4 marriage divorces in his life. Note his Natal Saturn (separation) involves a Direct Midpoint with Venus (love) Caput (connections). Although we see his Natal Mars rising which certainly indicates a Mars theme, I think his Direct Midpoint of Venus/Caput (Lunar Node) nails the main cosmic aspect for his life of marriage divorces.

Without midpoints, we see Mars rising. In the discussions of whether different angles actually have different meanings, I think it's been discussed that Ascendant and Descendant are different poles of the same thing: That if Curtis has something on Descendant, it probably would reflect his experience of relationships more but, in the absence of that, rising Mars shows how he puts himself forward into relationships. (The whole Horizon is ultimately about relationship.) Just an elaborating remark in passing.

(And of course he has Moon square Uranus partile. I'm sure he doesn't like being contained or "held down," and is quite willing to make a change to escape it.)

Regarding midpoints, he has a lot of various interesting ones. (Look at his Mercury axis - I'd expect communication issues.) For those touching Venus, consider that his rising Mars has a 0°40' direct contact to Venus/Pluto.

Stepping down to the 45° series adds a whole lot affecting the relationship patterns, not the least of which is Moon/Saturn to both Asc and MC (ecliptically). Mars, already direct to Ve/Sa, picks up details: Mercury/Saturn (0°01') and Saturn/Neptune (0°33'). My attention is also caught by Pluto = Moon/Asc (add Mo/Ma, Ma/Ur, and Su/Ve).

I looked at his mundoscope for midpoints involving angles, and they're interesting without being explosively obvious or clear-cut. His angles are within a degree of the Saturn/Uranus, Jupiter/Neptune, and Neptune/Pluto midpoints. I don't know how connected to his marriage pattern this might be, but I mention them since we were talking about this.

It's interesting.

[SteveS]

Excellent points Jim, many I have already pondered. And yes indeed, 'very interesting.' I agree, we don't really need the midpoints to trump Sidereal Astrology. That Natal Mars rising tells us he will find himself in many combative life situations, and I have been serving him a long time with Sidereal Astrology. I have been in many combative 'fox holes' with him, helping him see the combative situations with Sidereal Astrology.

[SteveS]

Jim, when Solarfire list the Direct Midpoints with a (d), with your expertise Sidereal Astrology experience, do you see anything Robert Hand may have overlooked by not being a Sidereal Astrologer which could rate the potency of a Direct Midpoint, only Direct Midpoints not equaling an angle which we already know are very potent. Based on Ebertin's work with Direct Midpoints, I see midpoints in my natal chart that are dead-on Bingo, but some that are not a Bingo.
Also, Jim, based on your Mundo work, you do consider the angular Jupiter-Neptune in chart below link to be a pv midpoint, which is not listed by Solarfire as any kind of Midpoint.
Sorted by Angle in Modulus 90,00---this Jupiter-Neptune is 45,31.
https://imgur.com/a/YVg4Y

[Jim Eshelman]

Whether calling it a midpoint or not, it's at least important because they are equally close to their angles.

[SteveS]

Yes, OK

[SteveS]

Robert Hand says about Midpoints:

Suffice it to say that midpoints work. I use midpoints because they often give information that would not be available in the chart. Without them, I have seen important characteristics of a person and events in life completely overlooked. Whatever transit, progression, or solar arc direction sets off a natal planet in later life sets off the midpoints attached to it as well. Therefore, an understanding of the midpoints attached to a natal planet can tell a great deal about how that planet will operate in one’s life. For the astrologer to benefit from what midpoints can add, one need not give up the approach one already uses. When reading a chart, one uses midpoints mainly to give additional information about the cosmic state of each natal planet. The effects of individual midpoints will be seen most clearly when they are set off by dynamic factors such as transits, solar arc directions or progressions.

Let me offer an example of a Natal Midpoint structure in my Chart. Before I discovered Sidereal Astrology, I did a-lot of study/learning with Hand’s Midpoint teachings. I once asked Robert what the main Midpoint structure in my natal chart which attracted me to the field of astrology. Robert said it was obvious using midpoints. Besides my Natal Sun featuring a partile 90 to Uranus, my Natal Moon was wired with important midpoint structures with Uranus.
1: There is a natal direct midpoint of Uranus/North Node= Moon. (connected me with Jim & this forum)
2: Uranus/Asc partile 90 Moon
3: Jupiter/Uranus partile 90 Moon
So, I can clearly see my natal lights are somewhat dominated by potent connections with Uranus. Or, using Robert’s words: the cosmic state of my lights are potently aspected to Uranus, both by traditional aspects and midpoint structures. Also, my Natal Moon falls on the axis of the fixed stars Antares-Aldebaran. There is ancient lore Aldebaran influencing Astrologers. Coming-up in my life, I have p Sun & p Jupiter almost partile my Natal Moon. My main objective is to carry Jim’s teachings of Sidereal Astrology to my community. There is no doubt in my mind—Robert Hand’s midpoint work is important for all astrologers with supplementary natal understanding in “Knowing Thyself.”