Can a sign be bastardized?

[Soft Alpaca]

In a chart can a sign be bastardized, as in the sign has opposite or murky effects and or qualities that are normally associated with it? I'm especially interested in the luminary and Mars signs as these are often looked too as they are highly active.

I was reading Jim 's post about marketing the sidereal zodiac and describing the signs each with three core words (which makes sense as a triangle is the strongest shape, Three words that act as angles of the sign). I was reading Saggitarius (my sun) and Leo (my moon) and the three describing words weren't really traits that discriped me or were descriptors but not ones I would include in an initial self analysis. (None of leos three traits of ever use to describe me and only one or two of Saggitarius traits I would include in a second or third list of self personality traits.)

However this isn't about me as much as it's about other people who I've met that act as almost opposite or disassociated with the traits that form the three angles of their sun/moon/mard signs. If a sign can be bastardized or altered from an intial description what may lead to this in a chart? I've given up agruging against the traits Jim applies to the signs (especially the ones that are my Sun and Moon which I'm almost discontent with, but then again the less people know about me the better) so maybe there is a reason why I and others in my life wouldn't use those traits to describe. (I actually love culture much like a Saggitarius would but it's not as political and as shallow and as ladder climbing as the sign seems, and I don't understand Leo much at all it feels ironicly impersonal).

What do you guys think about the words describing your sun/moon/mars signs? Do you know anyone who has the same opinions I have or not being able to associate with a major sign in their charts, or coming across as a typical of that sign?

[Jim Eshelman]

In a chart can a sign be bastardized, as in the sign has opposite or murky effects and or qualities that are normally associated with it?

In a sense, yes; but I don't think it's so in the way you're thinking. (Let me talk about it a bit so we can find out whether it's in the sense you mean.)

The key idea is that polarities are damn interesting... and polarities necessarily have seemingly opposite things in them. This is because their not opposed (in the "is this, can't be that" sense), but they are opposite ends of a single pole. Sometimes this is really obvious "same trait, opposite polarity" as in the eroticism of Taurus (which is more receptive than aggressive, but can be aggressive as part of the dance) and the sexual of Scorpio (which is mostly aggressive, but can be receptive as part of the dance).

Virgo-Pisces is clearly a reason-unreason, logic-illogic polarity. But either has the inherent faculties and capacities of the other (at least, in a basic sense) and - especially in certain situations I'll describe in a moment) and flip. I'll always remember a friend who uniquely showed this: A partile Sun-Neptune conjunction in Virgo. To a Virgo like me, she seemed a way-out woo-woo mystic, ungrounded - because, when we were together, she played the Pisces (Neptune) polarity to my Virgo. But she also led a meditation group (of course), and had a large circle of friends and contacts of similar leanings, and, to them, she was the grounded voice of reason and practicality - because her role was to be Virgo to their Pisces.

Leo and Aquarius can be equally humanitarian, but for opposing reasons (Leo feels a good father should look out for all the children, and a good landowner-lord fulfill his duty to the serfs).

So, some of this is inherent polarity. Aries may seem "all about self in a relationship" and Libra "all about relationship with regard to themselves,"but you can't have one without the other. They play their typical role in the polarity (one preferring self-centered contrariness and the other preferring socially egalitarian agreeableness), but the opposite is never entirely missing, and can be an occasional "tool of the trade."

There is then another special case of this. It involves those situations where our normal resources fail us. It's the foundation of the Jungian anima-animus faculties. In highly gendered upbringing, boys tend to favor development of one category of (let's temporarily call them) "male" traits, and girls tend to favor development of "female" traits. Both groups make it through life primarily relying on these primary faculties. But when they fail - when their psychological resources for dealing with situations can't sustain psychological equilibrium, frustration and failure mount, etc. - they flip to the opposite. Men (of the kind raised in highly gendered upbringings) tend to become emotional and reactive - the "female" traits manifesting in immature ways, because it's undertrained, underdeveloped, immature expression of the faculty. Women, in the same situation, tend to become hyper-rational (in an almost irrational sense - again, it's an immature function, so it comes out childishly).

Similarly, Jung's complementary Sensation-Intuition and Feeling-Thinking personality type pairs tend to all flip to the other when their normal, natural primary function fails them in navigating life. One example easy for the Sidereal astrologer to see: "Air" signs are naturally future-oriented Intuitive types; but, since nobody has yet lived in the future, it's one of the hardest typologies to live, and they commonly flip polarity and become as hands-on efficient and managing of practical resources as their Sensation-favoring opposite types.

So yes... whatever type we are, when our normal nature, tendencies, capacities, etc. fail us in navigating life, we can (briefly, or for longer stretches until we find equilibrium again) flip to an opposite polarity; and, even in healthy areas, we will sometimes tap the other end of a polarity-resource as well.

If a sign can be bastardized or altered from an intial description what may lead to this in a chart?

My only objection to "bastardized" is that it strikes me as meaning that the sign is permanently damaged, and that it's a function of something in the chart itself. (This may not be what you mean. I'm just clarifying how I'm hearing it.) Rather, it's a matter of the person's overall life (or a particular, immediate area) hitting a failure-point where they need a different resource. When your normal faculty fails, the emergency resource picked tends to be as far from your norm as possible, to maximize the chance that it will be a better tool. (It's an abnormal state, like driving in "passing gear." Perfect when you briefly need it, but not the way to drive once the immediate need is over.)

Notice that this mechanism is going to be more common in younger people, because they haven't yet developed their full life-skill set and are more likely to hit frustration or failure points where the psyche needs a different solution.

[Soft Alpaca]

Thanks Jim. I think this is a really interesting topic. I disagree with the word young in this case, rather I would or for inexperienced, just like you would rather opt for out of gear instead of bastardized. I couldn't think of another word for it. I wouldn't say my Leo and Saggitarius are out of gear as much as on the back burner. I don't believe in the father figure as I didn't have one, I also don't believe in serfdom ie hierarchy in General. To classify one person as less or more to me is innately egotistical and childish. We all have our pros and cons and in the jaws of the universe we all are just like little ants. From the Saggitarius side I think the tribe and the family are important, because it is freeing to connect to every available window if the universe, just like people every culture has pros and cons and not one is more powerful or better than another in a time setting that truly matters (ie if Greece is the biggest emprire for 1000 years that is just a small fraction of the infinity of time).

I opt to put the Capricorn and Scorpio on the front burners of my life, focusing on room to breath and the grit of survival. The traits of these signs have got me to where I am I will continue to use them to get by, and one of the biggest skill sets these have taught me is an innate need to change adapt and break routine rather to let go than improve. As for my Jung types I'm thinking 49% almost equally intro and extroverted I'm 51% feeling slightly more extroverted. Im 100% intuition both intro and extroverted I'm slightly more extroverted it just depends on my mood and I'm perceiving not judging. So ENFP [ENTP is close]. I've always connected with water it was one of my first fears and first loves (fire is also important to me). Im really masculine even though I'm emotional (on the inside). My emotions are overwhelming for others so I bottle them and everything else.

Side note I used to hate my tropical Sun in Capricorn but now it seems sidereal Mars is one of my most important planets (the three descriptions of Capricorn describe me very well as do the three in Scorpio).

Curious is Mars being elevated one of the reasons why Scorpio is so relatable to me...

[Jim Eshelman]

I disagree with the word young in this case, rather I would or for inexperienced, just like you would rather opt for out of gear instead of bastardized. I couldn't think of another word for it. I wouldn't say my Leo and Saggitarius are out of gear as much as on the back burner.

"Back burner" is interesting, and consistent with why I said "young." Full brain development doesn't hit until about age 25, and the kind of maturity that instinctively recognizes its place in the universe rarely develops before Saturn's fifth quarter-turn around the zodiac, i.e., at or in the seven years following the Saturn Return (very late 20s to mid-30s).

That's why I said I'd love to hear from you on this sort of thing in ten years. I think you just haven't come into your real genius yet, and you'll turn out to be a through-and-through Sagittarius-Leo after all

[Soft Alpaca]

At least 25 for females 30s for men. Is it bad that I hope I don't end up there Jim? Is it even worse that I will mentally make sure I don't one that you have mentioned this? I would actually have to loose a lot of personality to get to those signs that's a little dishearting to hear actually but we are always changing.

[Jim Eshelman]

I would actually have to loose a lot of personality to get to those signs that's a little dishearting to hear actually but we are always changing.

Or (and I don't mean this in a mean way at all, though I suspect it may seem an affront to you - not my intent)... given that (1) you're human, (2) you have a Sagittarius Sun and an angular Jupiter, and (3) you have a Leo Moon and a rising Sun... No, you don't have to give up a lot of personality. At least, not your own personality. You just have to give up posing. You're an actor. (More than anything, you're an actor: That's the broad category of career genius your chart suggests.) Yes, you'd have to give up some of the "character" you've invented for yourself. But don't confuse the actor with the costume.

But that's OK. There are always more roles to play. I don't think you'll feel constrained. The only long-term damage you can do is in long-term living a life untrue to your actual nature. You'll sort that out, I'm sure.

[Soft Alpaca]

Getting naked sounds fun Jim. Taking off your clothes and dancing in the dark. I do act in very personable and charismatic but that's on the surface. I don't have the energy to do anything more than this I'm not going to lie. Also I'm not offened in what you are saying, I've built my character the way I wanted to, underhanded sly and cunning like, it's not the character or persona that is important but the cunning and sly that built the character is. However the point where I honestly disagree with you is the emotions I have, I can't take my feeling but I can hide them, they aren't the nature of Saggitarius or Leo but more of Pluto and Saturn, I've been through do much pain I can't connect to these Leo feelings I'm a positive person because I know how my mood swings work and what happens when i get depressed, that being said the dark places are more comfortabld for me i can't do the happy dramatic social nature of Leo and Saggitarius for very long. Part of the reason I'm into astrology is to learn about this chart (but I'm not going to change who I am to match the descriptions of it, it's honestly to exhausting).

[Jim Eshelman]

However the point where I honestly disagree with you is the emotions I have, I can't take my feeling but I can hide them, they aren't the nature of Saggitarius or Leo but more of Pluto and Saturn, I've been through do much pain I can't connect to these Leo feelings I'm a positive person because I know how my mood swings work and what happens when i get depressed, that being said the dark places are more comfortabld for me i can't do the happy dramatic social nature of Leo and Saggitarius for very long. Part of the reason I'm into astrology is to learn about this chart (but I'm not going to change who I am to match the descriptions of it, it's honestly to exhausting).

Of course you have Pluto feelings. You have a very close Moon-Pluto square. Saturn. And Moon also trines Saturn within about a quarter of a degree. These are the factors that primarily impact your Moon (besides its constellation), so of course your FEELINGS are going to be like this

But you aren't just your feelings. You're a whole lot more. The emergent, distinguished ego that is yours to grow and mature (the solar side of yourself) is apparently still there to unfold.

"The dark places are more comfortable..." I get it. Let me point out, though, that the most common psychic defense mechanism of Sagittarians is self-isolation. In intentionally Sagittarian imagery, I think of this as their "ivory tower" retreat - think the later life forms of Richard Nixon, Howard Hughes, and Elvis Presley for examples of retreating, out of acute vulnerability, fear, and loss, into such a place. Watch out for that - if, by chance, it sticks, then it will narrow your life quite a lot. Plan on healing the pain, not on holding.

By the way... something really wicked of me to mention (but Marion just reminded me I'd meant to)... Slytherin is also the most Sagittarian house on campus. Elitist, moneyed, condescending, narrow, exclusive, ambitious, value pureblood history (through select families) for admission and generally racist (muggles are sorted in but looked down on). (It's house ghost is even a baron.) Quite ivory tower, elitist, and Medieval Sagittarius in style.

[Soft Alpaca]

That's my probably with Saggitarius and Slytherin they both are founded on ambition and expansion but are narrow and exclusive. I don't like elitist groups I've been screwed over one to many times. I think too that the relationship between the Sun and Moon in my chart is blinding, the Sun is exalted in Aries and the Suns ruler is in Aries, is argue this relationship is more fundamental in my chart than the moon being ruled by the Sun. Espicaly noting the overlooked triple shared ridership, Mars in Capricorn, Pluto in Scorpio, and Saturn in Aries. Im don't too that I see my Aries in me than Leo and Saggitarius. Im not denying their energy in my chart, but I'm saying that the core of them isn't aligned with the core of me. Mars in my chart seems to boost the Scorpio energy if that is at all possible, Capricorn and Aries are heavy too, these might not be my Sun or moon signs but are they any less a part of me?

[Jim Eshelman]

these might not be my Sun or moon signs but are they any less a part of me?

Yes (depending, of course, on what you mean by "me"). Each planet has a different function. The luminaries define the core elements - Sun the deep core of your most fundamental spiritual and practical essence, Moon the mask and other adaptive mechanisms that nurture and protect the Sun.

Everything else exists just in service to the plants (especially service to the Sun). They are not fundamental, core expressions of that deep kernel of you that has come, from one life to another, and at the moment is centered in the present body, place, and horoscope of your last birth. They are tools in the tool kit; but Sun is the carpenter using the tools, and Moon is the plans being followed.

[Soft Alpaca]

What do you call it when the other planets use the Sun as a puppet?

[Jim Eshelman]

What do you call it when the other planets use the Sun as a puppet?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, so I don't know the answer to that.

If it were a situation where other planets are aspecting Sun, these color it strongly (depending on strength of the aspects). However, you're Sun has no aspects of great import (only a rather wide trine with Moon), so its main coloration is from Sagittarius.

If I were to take you more literally, then I would say there is serious psychotic breakdown - the hammer and saw running the carpenter. I'd call that psychosis.

It is quite common in the young for Moon's sign to dominate more because the deep ego-center hasn't developed yet. It is common for otherwise angular planets to have greater expression than less angular ones, so that they seem to be in the driver's seat (but your two most angular planets are Jupiter and Sun, so we're back where we started).

What we usually see is that someone is acting out strongly one part of their character, but - whether or not it's obvious on the surface - they are acting it out as themselves. The Sun shine's through (that is, who one most deeply is shines through) in how they do it. Brando may have played Corleone, Jor-El, and Terry Malloy - all non-Piscean characters - but he played them as a Piscean actor, using Piscean skills and tactics, every bit as much as he did with the deeply-Piscean Paul from Last Tango or Stanley Kowalski from Streetcar.

[Soft Alpaca]

There is no official record of my birthtime other than via word of mouth from my forgetful mother, so there is some possiblity the angles are slightly off, espicaly because the history if addiction and escapism in my family would align with a Pisces IC. I was born with the Sun below the Horzion meaning my moon would be more prominent as it is in sect, but my moon is ruled by my Sun. I could look for a final dispositor but we shut down the Pluto Scorpio ideology early on and Next would be the Exalted Mars, making Capricorn have some core influence (I don't feel like Mars is in any way a tool of my Sun). I do think it's interesting that three planets I would say have more significance are in aspect to each other (Mars Jupiter and Mercury) and their signs align with the energy I express at my core.

[Soft Alpaca]

Hmm another interesting theory I have Jim, my Sun does trine Saturn in Aries and Parralel Mercury in Scorpio and both of these aspects if I read the parrael as a week coj. describe me well as do the signs (Back to Aries and Scorpio again).

[Jim Eshelman]

There is no official record of my birthtime other than via word of mouth from my forgetful mother

Well, we can only be as accurate as your birth time. A sufficiently different time would put different planets on the angle. (But it wouldn't affect your luminary signs.)

I was born with the Sun below the Horzion meaning my moon would be more prominent

No validity to this at all. Luminary signs work just the same, regardless of hemisphere or angularity.

I could look for a final dispositor

No validity to this, Among other things, it's based on the erroneous idea that all planet sign placements are somehow equal. But, theory aside, there's no evidence for it. (The closest thing is a side effect: A final dispositor is necessarily a dignified planet and that, alone, may tend to give the planet's character a boost, unrelated to the dispositorship chain leading to it.)

Hmm another interesting theory I have Jim, my Sun does trine Saturn in Aries and Parralel Mercury in Scorpio and both of these aspects if I read the parrael as a week coj. describe me well as do the signs (Back to Aries and Scorpio again).

Parallels have no demonstrable value. Sun trine Saturn is there, but quite weak - I wouldn't normally look at it at all, but it's there. (Moon trine Saturn is very close.)

This still wouldn't be a reason to count Saturn's sign as defining your character.

[Soft Alpaca]

The being born at day or night does seem to interest me and I don't think we have enough information to disprove or prove if it has any validity or not. Your quick to prove or disprove maybe too quick. Again it's all theory as I believe astrology is inherently, espicaly because my psyche breaks so many rules to begin with. Im inherently rule breaking which ironic for my Sun sign. I do think too that the system needs a certain amount of shock to keep it going.

[Soft Alpaca]

You can look at my life and my profile if you need to see the shock of Saturn in my life. Im 18 I've raised two kids, I've been abused in various forms, I've been attacked with a Scythe, threated, pushed, neglected, bullied, etc. The nature if my character is innately misleading epically as a gay male who is considered more masculine than most of the other males I know in general. Not saying in ruled by Saturn at all just that I've experienced it and karma in full. I would say I'm more of Mars and or Pluto natured than Saturn anyway. Which Pluto makes sense as it is the only true hard aspect I consider to either of my luminaries and Mars is exalted and in the tightest aspects in my chart.