Planetary Nodes

[SteveS]

Jim, is there any way we can get Uranus Node displayed on a chart using Solarfire, or at least determine where the Uranus Nodes are located for a timed chart?

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, is there any way we can get Uranus Node displayed on a chart using Solarfire, or at least determine where the Uranus Nodes are located for a timed chart?

Easy to tell where it is - not sure we can get it displayed.

Click Reports, then pick Planetary Nodes

The geocentric longitude of your Uranus' N Node is 22°40'; of Urnaus' S Node, 16°49' Scorpio. I'd consider conjunctions and oppositions within 1° and treat them like "degree symbolism."

You have Saturn on Venus' NN (23°44' Cancer).

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, I kinda knew you would know. Do you have a chart file for astrologers? Just read this: Diana Rosenburg and Arlene Nimark (who I don't know) have found the Uranus Node axis prominent (and occupied) in charts of astrologers. Diana uses a 90' dial marked for nodal positions and considers them to have purer essence of the planet than the transiting planet-in-aspect itself.

[Jim Eshelman]

No, not a separate file.

I'd be skeptical of extending these past the opposition and VERY skeptical of extending it past the square. Do you know what aspects and or s they use?

[SteveS]

Jim asked:

Do you know what aspects and or s they use?

No, but will probe deeper. Just noticed something but promise not to get carried away . Using probably the two worst incidents to happen in US History, Great Depression, 9/11---noting Saturn Nodes lined up with 1929 Cansolar Sun and 9/11 Cansolar Sun. Looking into future Saturn Nodes tight line-up with 2021 Capsolar Sun & Pluto.

[Jim Eshelman]

Uh, the panel nodes are at the same location every year on the same date. You'll probably find this aspect t in every Cansolar.

[SteveS]

I know little about the planetary nodes. I will change this topic to planetary nodes and post other material for your comments, with more questions, thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

Let's start with Lunar Nodes: Lunar Nodes are the intersection of the Moon's orbital plane with the ecliptic (two points exactly opposite on the circle). Because Moon orbit Earth, geocentrically we don't need to make it any more complicated: They both appear 180° apart from Earth's perspective always.

Planetary nodes add a complication: The other planets don't orbit Earth. They orbit Sun. So, heliocentrically the two Mercury Nodes, the two Uranus nodes, etc. are also pairs of points exactly opposite each other. Thus, today Mercury's heliocentric nodes are those places where Mercury's orbital plane intersects the ecliptic, 23°33' Aries-Libra. Uranus' nodes today heliocentrically are 19°06' Taurus-Scorpio.

But we don't want them heliocentrically. We want them geocentrically. So, the question becomes: Against what part of space do we see those nodes from Earth.

From Earth, that 19°06' Taurus-Scorpio (remember, these are points exactly on Uranus' orbital plane!) are at 16°38' Taurus and 21°45' Scorpio. Mercury's nodes, which heliocentrically are 23°33' Aries-Libra, are currently geocentrically 28°05' Pisces and 28°37' Aquarius.

Huh? Isn't that a LOT different? Yes, it is. Since (1) these are points on Mercury's orbit, and (2) the whole of Mercury's orbit as seen from earth fits in a 56° band - 28° either side of Sun - then every point on Mercury's orbit (including its nodes) will always be seen within 28° of Sun.

The heliocentric nodes move so slowly that, like fixed stars, they are almost unmoving. For example, at my birth the heliocentric Mercury nodes were 23°41'Aries-Libra; Uranus' nodes were 19°40' Taurus-Scorpio. From year to year, their movement is small. So, the real shift in geocentric planetary nodes has to do with where we are located when viewing them, i.e., where Earth is in its orbit. If we look out across the solar system at those two relatively unmoving points from where Earth is every July 17, they will be in about the same place; but if we look at them from where we're sitting every April 1, we'll see them against a different backdrop.

Saturn's heliocentric nodes are currently 28°50' Gemini-Sagittarius. Therefore, they will be seen with the least displacement when we are in the part of our orbit that Sun is seen at 28°50' Gemini-Sagittarius. At our last Capsolar, in January 2018, Saturn's nodes were 28°42' Gemini and 28°56' Sagittarius. At our last Cansolar, they were seen geocentrically at 28°57' Gemini and 28°42' Sagittarius. But Saturn's nodes, I guess, move a little faster than the others. In July 1929, Saturn's heliocentric nodes were 29°17' Gemini-Sagittarius, so they were within 1° of Sun at Cansolar-Capsolar.

So there would have been a band of several years - a few decades? (I'd have to check to know for sure) - when this would have happened. Not every year for centuries, but every year for at least a few decades.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

In July 1929, Saturn's heliocentric nodes were 29°17' Gemini-Sagittarius, so they were within 1° of Sun at Cansolar-Capsolar. So there would have been a band of several years - a few decades? (I'd have to check to know for sure) - when this would have happened. Not every year for centuries, but every year for at least a few decades.

Thanks Jim. So its just a coincidence Saturn's helio nodes are tightly 0,180 CapSun/CanSun in DC, where most of the structured laws come from? Are Saturn's nodes also moving slowly through the zodiac in DC with precessional motion?

[Jim Eshelman]

The 1928 Capsolar had them 0°39' apart; 1929 had them the same; 1930 had them the same. I'd have to calculate each year to see for sure, but, as you can see, there would be many consecutive years where this was partile, including the whole of the Roaring '20s. In 1900 Saturn's S Node was 0°31' from Capsolar Sun.

Are Saturn's nodes also moving slowly through the zodiac in DC with precessional motion?

It has nothing to do with DC - it's exactly the same worldwide. It's not precessional motion, but feels kinda the same: It's very slow motion. But the actual motion applies to the heliocentric nodes, and then the geocentric longitude varies widely during the course of the year. For example, while Saturn's nodes are nearly aligned with the 0° Cancer-Capricorn axis, and therefore will be least displaced from that in the Capsolar and Cansolar, they will be most displaced around 0° Aries-Libra. (Set up Arisolars and Libsolars for the same years and see.)

[SteveS]

Jim, Mary Downing from the book ‘Essentials of Intermediate Astrology’ writes:

I consider helio nodal points as hot points…

I just did a spot check for 1941 (US declaring War) and the second SMA chart I looked at was DC’s 1941 Cansolar. I noted:
1: Ascending Mars Node 20,57 Tau, partile cnj Cansolar’s Dsc.
2: Descending Mars Node 1,34 opposing Cansolar Mars
3: Ascending Uranus Node 1,11 cnj Cansolar Dsc, cnj Ascending Mars Node
Are the nodal points listed by SF in Reports helio nodal points?

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, these are good catches. Since nodes, by definition, have 0° latitude, they have no distortion on angles: ecliptical and mundane conjunctions are identical.

And since I don't think I've said this, I'm sure they're valid, at least as supplemental weak factors. (Usual caveat: "sure" doesn't always equal "right.") I've worked with them for about 40 years, and they're always one of my first to "go-tos" when I want a little more information on a planet's characterization.

The nodes in the SF Reports are helio if the chart is helio, and geo if the chart is geo.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

The nodes in the SF Reports are helio if the chart is helio, and geo if the chart is geo.

Then the nodal hits for the 1941 Cansolar are geo hits, somewhat contradicting Mrs. Downing's use of helio nodes. With your experience seeing supplementary valid symbolism with nodes--are you mainly using geo nodes?

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, they are geo. That''s what you want, not the helio ones.

(Astrologers using helio nodes in geo charts are just lazy. "Back in the day," before the late '70s IIRC, one couldn't get the geo nodes, then they became routinely accessible. But there are still old books that list the helio longitude as if it's a fixed star, a "permanent" location. - I didn't know the reference you were citing was using all helio longitudes.

Nonetheless, I see it has caught your attention on planetary nodes

[Danica]

my Mars is 17' conj Mars' AN!

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim wrote:

The nodes in the SF Reports are helio if the chart is helio, and geo if the chart is geo.

Then the nodal hits for the 1941 Cansolar are geo hits, somewhat contradicting Mrs. Downing's use of helio nodes. With your experience seeing supplementary valid symbolism with nodes--are you mainly using geo nodes?

And, of course, you have nothing martial in your chart, so this is something new, right!? <vbg>.

Danica, this is detectable another way: A planet conjunct its own node means that the planet is at the place where its orbit exactly intersects the ecliptic, i.e., it has no latitude. Your Mars' latitude is 0N01, a single minute above the ecliptic. Astrologers have long held (probably correctly) that all such "crossings" are relevant points. I've never been able to figure out what weight to give a planet with more or less 0°00' latitude, but a reasonable way to think of it is to frame it as the planet conjunct its node. One might say that your Mars is in a distinctly martial degree, for example.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Nonetheless, I see it has caught your attention on planetary nodes

Yes, somewhat interesting. I will try to remember to look at the nodes with certain charts.

[SteveS]

Jim, probably the most ‘stunning/shocking’ event to ever occur in USA was the 9/11/2001 incident; therefore, Pluto prominent in DC’s 2001 Capsolar would not surprise us Siderealists. Below is chart link for DC’s 2001 Capsolar. Pluto partile 90 MC! The sheer destruction for the event shows well with Descending Mars Node 0,14 cnj Pluto, partile 90 MC! Could be an anomaly with Mars Node, but both times in history with an attack on US interest, Mars Nodes shows par-excellent angular symbolism with SMA.

Nelson (scientist), who was a radio propagation engineer, opined that planets were more potent in nodal positions.
Diana Rosenburg considers nodal positions of planets to have the purer essence of the planet than the transiting planet-in-aspect itself.

https://imgur.com/a/ISjgt

[Jim Eshelman]

Good example. (On the quote BTW John Nelson would have been looking at heliocentric nodes and planets on their own - not those of other planets; that is, planets at the point where their own orbits intersected the ecliptic.)

So every year, at the Capsolar, Mars' south node would be approximately 19°15' Scorpio. In this particular year, Pluto and Midheaven touched it off as well.

Other interesting nodal contacts in that Capsolar: We were still in the time when Saturn affected Sun, its south node being 0°59' from Sun (but this went on every year for decades). Mercury's south node 10°25' Sagittarius was conjunct Descendant (for the coordinates of the Pentagon: 0°06'); and Mercury is the reliable planet for air attacks etc.

The REAL show-off chart for 9/11 was the Cansolar. Nothing affected the angles for Washington, but Mars was 0°20' from opposite Mars' NN and 0°44' from opposite Uranus' NN. (Other planets got in on the act, too.)

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

(On the quote BTW John Nelson would have been looking at heliocentric nodes and planets on their own - not those of other planets; that is, planets at the point where their own orbits intersected the ecliptic.)

Interesting. There seems to be a mix whether helio or geo show the best 'hot spots'for nodes. I have just ordered a book by Dr. Zipporah Dobyns titled 'The Node Book' which comes highly recommended using geo nodes with many examples. Will post conclusions of book later, you may have already read this book. What I am doing for my own personal research is taking my SSR's for the best/worst years (few) for certain important events in my life, checking the nodes with outstanding symbolism--will report later.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim wrote:

(On the quote BTW John Nelson would have been looking at heliocentric nodes and planets on their own - not those of other planets; that is, planets at the point where their own orbits intersected the ecliptic.)

Interesting. There seems to be a mix whether helio or geo show the best 'hot spots'for nodes.

Nelson was plotting sunspots. ALL of his work was helio, because he was measuring impact not on Earth but on the Sun.

I have just ordered a book by Dr. Zipporah Dobyns titled 'The Node Book' which comes highly recommended using geo nodes with many examples.

Yes, I know it well. I worked pretty closely with Zip for several years on various projects.

The gist of what works, though, is that the geocentric degree of the two nodes of each planet act like week versions of the planet, i.e., seem to characterize a degree either side of where they land.

[Danica]

What I am doing for my own personal research is taking my SSR's for the best/worst years (few) for certain important events in my life, checking the nodes with outstanding symbolism--will report later.

Good idea!

What kind of contacts of Planetary Nodes with SSR factors are you exactly looking for? (with angles, or Moon, or just any partile conj/opp/sq to planets and angles?)
...Thinking out-loud: see if a given year has the same planetary principle already prominent in another way, and exclude those years as referential as to the effect of the Node contact.

[SteveS]

Danica asked:

What kind of contacts of Planetary Nodes with SSR factors are you exactly looking for?

To begin my own personal research, only the angles and moon with 0,90,180 aspects and only allowing 1,30 orbs. What I am struggling with is this question (I hope Jim can answer): Is there some special astronomical reason why a Siderealist would use helio nodes over geo nodes. This is way outside my astronomical knowledge/understanding range.
Danica wrote:

…see if a given year has the same planetary principle already prominent in another way, and exclude those years as referential as to the effect of the Node contact.

Good idea Danica . When you check your personal life with this ‘principle’ let me know. The most memorial solar year in my entire life occurred my 1984 solar year at my birthplace location. That year I was embroiled in the worst War of my entire life, Mundo SSR Mars 0,40 cnj SSR Dsc. A most depressing year to the point it affected my health, SSR Descending Saturn Node 180 SSR Moon, 0,49, but just the War itself could have caused the depression and health problem. So, I am going to calculate all my adult SSR’s and check to see how many SSR Saturn’s Nodes I had partile 0,90,180 my SSR Moons. Will report later.

[Jim Eshelman]

Basic answer: No, only geo. Unless of course you were already working helio-everything for some other reason, e.g. Nelson predicting weather on the surface of the Sun.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

What I am struggling with is this question (I hope Jim can answer): Is there some special astronomical reason why a Siderealist would use helio nodes over geo nodes. This is way outside my astronomical knowledge/understanding range.

The heliocentric nodes are the planetary nodes measured in a system based on a sun-centric system of coordinates. The geocentric nodes are the planetary nodes measured in a system based on an earth-centric system of coordinates. You live on the earth. The whole rest of your horoscope is set up in a measurement system measured in a system based on an earth-centric, i.e. geocentric, system of coordinates. Why would you, or anybody else, want to use positions in a measurement system measured in a system based on a sun-centric, i.e. heliocentric, system of coordinates?

This is not a question of Sidereal as opposed to Tropical measurements of the zodiac. This is a question of the horoscope is a map of the planets as seen from earth.

John Nelson was working on predicting sunspots that occur on the sun in order to predict disruptions in radio waves that occur throughout the solar system. That's why he was studying them from the heliocentric positions. Unless you move to the Sun, or are studying something on the Sun, you have no reason to use heliocentric measurements of the locations of the nodes.

[SteveS]

Nelson predicting weather on the surface of the Sun.

OK, good to know this is the reason Nelson was working with helio nodes, will look/research geo nodes.

[adamlink]

Solar Fire includes an option to use one of the Extra Ring chart wheels, and to include user defined points in the extra ring. Among the available options are the Planetary Nodes. So if you set your Extra Ring points to the planetary nodes you want to see in the chart, you can have them show up in one of the chart wheels that allows for the extra ring.

Zane

[Jim Eshelman]

Or, you can just hit Reports and click the Planetary Nodes button. It does the work of showing any contacts and keeps the chart cleaner.