Pluto and the dark aesthetics origin

[Soft Alpaca]

Where do you the dark aesthetics origin that tropical astrologers give to Pluto comes from? Maybe the myths of Pluto? Do you see any conviction in this? As a Pluto luminary person I can say that the nature of Pluto is to throw a wrench in every system in a way its arsthetic is much like a fire bomb, but is there a reason why it would scorch a personality so much to color it dark? This I don't know, my aesthetic is derived from Mars in Capricorn and Venus in Scorpio, making it hard for me to tell what belongs to what planet in terms of aesthetic, but I can say the Pluto side is never a facade for me.

Any thoughts on the topic?

[Jim Eshelman]

Where do you the dark aesthetics origin that tropical astrologers give to Pluto comes from? Maybe the myths of Pluto? Do you see any conviction in this?

Dark motifs have nothing to do with Pluto per se. One could say that they are Plutonian only in the sense that there have been recent periods that they are worn as a counter-culture revolt or to signify alienation; but that's not even purely Plutonian, since as soon as something crosses into a fad, group uniform, or shared style, it's no longer Plutonian.

So, back to where the idea came from. I see four places: (1) Confusing Pluto with Scorpio, (2) Confusing Sidereal Libra with Tropical Scorpio. (3) Mythological associations. (4) A failure to understand planetary natures. All four of these things will screw up an astrologer's correct understanding.

It didn't start as a Pluto idea, It started as a Scorpio idea, Then, when seeing that the God of the Underworld might be attributable to Tropical Scorpio, it only took a few decades for some of the dark colors to rub off on Pluto's reputation.

Think about it: What's even the most basic astrological thing one thinks of with the color black? Why, it's Saturn, of course, So are most of the personal and social characteristics that usually go with it, And the area of space that Tropical astrologers think of as Scorpio is actually the constellation Libra, the exaltation of Saturn and one of the two heavily Saturn-themed constellations in the zodiac.

Interestingly, you even expressed it as dark aesthetics. That's even more a Libran idea! But the basic black motif (with all of its associated social and cultural behaviors) is the Saturn part of the mix.

[Soft Alpaca]

I agree Jim. Saturn is black I use aesthetic for lack of a better word and it is very Libra as Venus ruler of Libra is in charge of aesthetic. I think of a fleshy purple (like cold decaying skin) when I think of Pluto. Capricorn and Saturn are very bleak and Black in nature.

My question which you answered is where did it come from (seemingly alienation after or due to periods of revolution).

What I'm trying to process is Pluto in form a visual aesthetic (my mind thinks artistically so I'm trying to visually filter Pluto).

What color is Pluto, what are his symbols and such.

Many people mistake Saturn for Pluto. (Saturn rules snakes, bad omens, black cats, witches, poisons, scythes , etc.) I do associate with some of these (Mars, Uranus, Neptune in Capricorn) . However in more interested in developing a true Pluto image to replace this tumblr descrption that society has.

[Jim Eshelman]

What color is Pluto, what are his symbols and such.

Other than ancient planets, for which we have long tradition, questions like this boil down to modern opinion; so I can't answer it as you've asked it, but will come from a different angle.

You may have noticed that, on charts, I have Pluto set as a very hot crimson, more vivid and intense than that of Mars. Besides thesidebeneit of theming to Aries this way, I picked it to reflect the energy-intensity of Pluto in a very bright, vibrant way.

My favorite visualization of Pluto couldn't be represented on a chart, either in color or design. It is burning white and microscopic: the whole universe concentrated into a white hole an instant before the big bang: the unextended, unidimensional diamond at the heart of each person that is inviolable, imperturbable, and without characteristic of its own, about which seed, each time we incarnate, we build a solar identity that is then the hub of anything that can be known about us in that life, all the rest of the chart being ultimately satellites of that Sun.

Another metaphorical representation of Pluto - something else that shares much of the same symbolism - is the star Sirius as seen in the heavens. If you're a Sirius-watcher in the winter skies, some of my description above will immediately click.

Many people mistake Saturn for Pluto.

This is part of what makes the Aries-Libra polarity so interesting - Aries being plutonian and solar, Libra being venereal and saturnian.

But yes, in general, developmental patterns of Pluto and Saturn in character initially follow similar patterns, though for quite different reasons. Saturn's main motive (in the context of self-preservation and survival) is increased autonomy needs. Pluto's main motive (in the context of existential distinction) is a struggle for virgin inviolability. In the very young, it is sometimes difficult to tell them apart because they both tend to separation, denial, alienation, etc. in the early years (modified by actual life-context, of course). On e of the tricks in interpreting children's c harts is to interpret Pluto much more as if it were Saturn - the "nothing" side of "all or nothing." Through adolescence, this gradually shakes out into something more rounded,

[Soft Alpaca]

Pluto describes my childhood then I was often abandoned or felt left alone. I would say that my Pluto is crimson in color and when off it fades to q very ghost grey. I can say that my nature was both the nature of survival and the nature of Pluto. Jim would you say Pluto is one of my strongest planets? Or do you see more of a mars nature?

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, with that close Moon square, Pluto definitely qualifies as "one of your strongest planets,." in a specifically lunar way.

Don't forget, you have a Saturn aspect to Moon that is much closer than your Moon-Pluto. You should expect a mingling of these two in your lunar nature.

I would not call Mars one of your strongest planets. It doesn't rule the Sun or Moon sign, doesn't aspect Sun or Moon, and isn't on an angle. It does, however, have strong aspect dynamics, but we don't measure strength of a planet from that.

[Veronica]

My favorite visualization of Pluto couldn't be represented on a chart, either in color or design. It is burning white and microscopic: the whole universe concentrated into a white hole an instant before the big bang: the unextended, unidimensional diamond at the heart of each person that is inviolable, imperturbable, and without characteristic of its own, about which seed, each time we incarnate, we build a solar identity that is then the hub of anything that can be known about us in that life, all the rest of the chart being ultimately satellites of that Sun.

Another metaphorical representation of Pluto - something else that shares much of the same symbolism - is the star Sirius as seen in the heavens. If you're a Sirius-watcher in the winter skies, some of my description above will immediately click.

wow. breathtaking visual. thank you so much for sharing that gem.

[Soft Alpaca]

Jim do you have any other descriptions for this planet? The existential nature of your statement embodies the planet alone.

(Side note: think too that Pluto-Jupiter is fairly accurate to myself. Pluto aspects the suns ruler and the moon the signs of Sun and some of the Moon don't really describe me but the aspects do.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim do you have any other descriptions for this planet? The existential nature of your statement embodies the planet alone.

I don;t know what that means. For example, I don;t know what "the planet alone" means (in contrast to... the planet NOT alone????).

You ask for other derscriptions, then seem to say the description given embodies the planet. Huh?

Here are my prinary descriptions of all the planets. The first post is old archive stuff from one of my books that I keep mostly for arcival purposes. The second post is the most important one.
http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=31

[Soft Alpaca]

Like without any of the meaning behind your statement, the fact that your statement about Pluto is extansenstial in nature, alone (without any of the other meaning) describes Pluto.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm still not understanding you. It's as if you think there is a meaning of Pluto that us something other than that existential virginity and soul-demand for authenticity. There isn't.

[Soft Alpaca]

No Jim, the fact that you used an existential statement is Plutonian in and of itself. There is more than those to things to Pluto but it's more processing than descriptive (how Pluto works less than what it's functions are. I've started a planet post about this.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

An existential statement about Pluto would say it's made up of nitrogen, methane, carbon monoxide, and orbits the sun from out in the Kuiper belt. How Pluto functions in someone's chart depends on the rest of that chart. All anybody can tell you is what Jim has already said. Trying to find some specific thing you can hang a label on that says Pluto does this is a tropical notion. We can't help you with that.

[Jim Eshelman]

No Jim, the fact that you used an existential statement is Plutonian in and of itself. There is more than those to things to Pluto but it's more processing than descriptive (how Pluto works less than what it's functions are. I've started a planet post about this.

These are the root idea of Pluto, Everything - 100% - of what streams from Pluto in human behavior streams from these primal urges in the same way that Mars boils down to aggression, expressing energy, etc.

Of course this is subject to infinite elaboration because life is rich and complex. Those are just elaborations (examples), though. Pluto ho have certain fundamental drives prominent, certain life experiences behind them, a certain context in which they live, will then makes various choices - based on all of those. A person with different fundamental drives most prominent, but a similar background and in a similar context, will make different choices.

But those details don't matter. They're just details. They're just what happens in the moment. What matters is who the person most fundamentally is behind and beneath those details.

Transiting Mars squares my Sun today. I grabbed a red shirt out of the closet. That might be interesting, but it's not an important detail of my day. The pace and nature of my day at work, and how I interact with coworkers and vendors is far more important.

[Soft Alpaca]

I see Jim. Today I put in my Johnny cash shirt the one where he was shown giving the bird. More importantly today I had school and I just wanted certain people to leave me be. I didn't want to be here.

[Jim Eshelman]

See? Pluto's preferred reaction to things is to leave. Pluto is "the isolated point, that which is singled out, a microscopic point against the infinite, the one sperm that makes it first to the egg," etc.

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok Jim thanks. Yes I like to be left alone at times, I don't want to be lonely, but alone is fine. It hard reading about to Pluto too because many don't differentiate between it and Scorpio, and even if Pluto did rule Scorpio a good topical astrologer would say that Pluto is to impersonal and inclusive for it's domicile sign to give it a real energy boost. I do relate to the traits given to Scorpio but that's probably environmental, just as Capricorn and Aries are pretty close too (and you have well established that my Sun sign should be stronger and more expressive than all of these). If I wanted to be a dominant Scorpio all I have to do is use Pullen-astrolog on astro.com and look at the numbers, but I don't.

I think that it is important to establish some Pluto symbolism as it will be a way to feed it to the public if nothing else. Honesty Pluto himself was a good guy he had the steadiest relationship with his wife, he was just sick of getting treated bad and had a darker view on things but overall a wholesome figure. I think that if we can express this then Pluto may get an accurate image one day.

On my planet post Veronica explains how she does see Pluto as sexual, Its a primal desire kind of way, and not overrated as in tropical descrptions. Its things like that, that Pluto should be described as.

[Jim Eshelman]

But we have established Pluto symbolism. It's exactly what we've been talking about.

If you specifically mean mythological, I disagree. That's a place astrologers end up spiraling down a hole of misunderstanding. That is, we can often find mythological overlaps with astrological realities, but you can't count on it. (Zeus-Jupiter is the best example, but there are many others.)

If you insist on Pluto mythology for the planet Pluto, I suggest you understand that mated gods are usually two sides of the same thing. Pluto is the same as Persephone (i.e., she's another expression of the same idea). The mystery of her myth is then that she is the inviolatable innocent. (That also resolves the seeming conflicts and confusions in the telling of her primary myths. But study her later, when she has embraced her role as queen of Hades.)

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok Jim I see where your coming from. Thank you for that explanation.