sibly's USA Natal Chart

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:52 am

I would like to open up what I hope to be a healthy objective discussion on the Sibly USA NATAL CHART. As a Sidereal Astrologer, I have not done extensive research with the Sibly Chart; but, as far as I am concerned a valid USA NATAL CHART must first be supported with valid Historical evidence and then second with Jim’s techniques for Solunar support. To whet our Historical and Solunar appetites I will first start us off with some Historical evidence.

Geoffrey Cornelius wrote:
“The Sibly horoscope is the first known exact astrological record of the American Declaration of Independence. It features in an engraving titled 'Revolution of America' in Ebenezer Sibly's New and Complete Illustration of the Occult Sciences published in 1784. The plate shows the infant United States inscribing the Declaration, watched by a chubby native Indian and a British officer, sword lowered and gesturing in acknowledgment of the new-born babe. Behind stands the figure of Justice with her scales. A trumpeting angel bears aloft the horoscope scroll, titled 'America Independance'(sic), showing cusps, planets and chart data, 4th July 10h10m pm 1776.

The horoscope in the angel's hand shows Placidus cusps cast for the latitude of London, which at first sight seems an odd choice. The stated time, 10h10m pm, also appears to refer to local time for London. Adopting this assumption, the horoscope can be relocated to the place of the signing, Philadelphia, almost exactly five hours behind London. Taking this approach produces an initial determination of the time for the Declaration of Independence of 5:10pm Local Time 4th July 1776, with an Ascendant of 12 Sagittarius 21. This latter figure is commonly taken to be the Sibly horoscope for America.

Where did Sibly get his data? His voluminous work Occult Sciences is dedicated to the 'Ancient and Honourable Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons', to whom he commits 'this venerable pile of ancient Astrology'. The Masonic connection appears to be of real significance, since the majority of the young nation's founders were Masons, including George Washington and Benjamin Franklin. Michael Baigent has researched Sibly's background and established that he was a member of Masonic Lodges in Portsmouth and then in Bristol, both cities with trading connections with the former colonies. Baigent argues that he was particularly well placed to hear from fellow Masons an account of the momentous events leading to independence. Indeed, one gets the sense from reading Sibly's discussion of the horoscope that the data itself is taken for granted as a matter of historical fact. There is nothing in his text to suggest that the timing derives either from speculation, or from astrological rectification, although equally we have no sound basis for discounting these options. There are conflicting accounts of proceedings of Congress and the timing of events on the day, and over the years these have led astrologers to widely different variants of the US horoscope. However, the Sibly version for the late afternoon of the 4th July has convincing support from other historical sources. At this point a good case in favour of this timing ought to be sewn up, but this was not to be. Sadly for Sibly, his effort has been entirely obscured for succeeding generations of astrologers…”

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:05 am

I used to like this chart on theoretical (not practical) grounds - my first article in American Astrology in 1972 supported it.

I subsequently learned that the purported U.S. time for the chart was actually the London time for the "shortly past noon" chart that has proven itself so well. I'm certain this was a time zone error: Somebody converted the time from Philadelphia to London for a reporter, then, not knowing that, somebody converted it a second time.

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:03 am

Jim wrote:
I used to like this chart on theoretical (not practical) grounds - my first article in American Astrology in 1972 supported it.

I understand. I have never done any Solunar testing with Sibly’s USA chart. I only discovered Sibly’s chart in 1992 but was very busy with my business. Years later, I started looking into why Sibly’s chart would be the correct chart out of many USA charts and was impressed with the historical account by Geoffery Cornelius--but still could not find the time to test the chart. Now that I am retired this year and have joined your Forum, I thought it would be a good time to put Sibly’s chart to an acid test with certain important Historical Events with Solunars and see where it leads us.

Jim, 1972 was many, many Moons ago—before you wrote ‘Interpreting Solar Return’s’ and before the advent of the Personal Computer. I am also guessing most of the Solunar astrology you were practicing in 1972 pertained to people’s charts—not mundane charts. I am going to pick the years of some important historical events at random and see what my mind sees pertaining to your Solunar guidelines. I am only going to look at the SSR and the SLR. Every astrologer weighs astrological symbolism differently. It may help the rest of us if you could attach a weight, on a scale of 1-10, of Solunar importance pertaining to the astrological symbolism—associated with any event. Any comments, corrections, or additions you may make, critical or otherwise, would be appreciated.

Regards, Steve

[David Stanton]

As you wish, of course. But I'd recommend, instead, that you use transits and progressions. Remember that national horoscopes (even with easily documented exact times, as with tracked-at-the-time 20th Century nation foundings and regime changes) are notoriously bad for solar and lunar returns, but respond extremely well with transits and progressions.

My main point is that the "shortly past noon" U.S. chart has responded spectacularly for the half century or more that's it's been carefully watched, and is the very chart from which such things as the Kennedy assasination were predicted (in print) in advance.

The time given as 10:10 PM would have been someone's conversion to London time of an alleged Philadelphia time 5:02 earlier, or 5:08 PM. But if (as is widely supposed) this had already been converted, then the London time of 5:08 PM would have been Philadelphia time of 12:06 PM. This is especially interesting since the time of 12:14:42 PM (a rectification of a few minutes by Llewellyn George, endorsed heavily by Don Bradley) is the time that has performed splendidly.

[David Stanton]

I understand Jim--I may make a fool of myself-- but you and I are Solunar( the name of this forum) addicts. I am curious about this Sibly Chart.

Steve

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:26 pm

Since we have recently discussed Lincoln’s assaniation with striking SSR symbolism, I will begin with Sibly’s 1864 SSR. This SSR covers the Solar year in which President Lincoln was assassinated. The Civil War had been raging for years. I don’t know history well enough to know if the last year of the Civil War distinguish itself in anyway for Sibly’s SSR (600,000 Americans died in this War), but there is some striking symbolism in Sibly’s 1864 SSR that tells the Sidereal Astrologer, using Jim’s SSR guidelines, that the country was going to experience some type of harsh symbolism.

Jim teaches the Sidereal Astrologer to first look to the angles of a SSR—this is where we will find any distinguishing ‘themes’ in a SSR. Using just our eyesight, we see Solar Moon, Mars, Neptune & Saturn closest to the angles, with Saturn the closest. Jim teaches us we need to closely analysis these angular planets. After my eyes see the closest angular planets, I always look for midpoint structures of the most angular planets my eyes have seen, particularly the ‘superior angle’ (Fagan’s words) of the MC. When we do this we find some extraordinary planetary symbolism that absolutely screams at the Sidereal Astrologer, with proven planetary symbolism, the Country is going to experience some type of ‘tormenting pain’. There is no way the Sidereal Astrologer can know or predict how this ‘pain’ will manifest, certainly not with a forecast of President Lincoln being assassinated. When we look closely at the most elevated planets of Mars & Neptune—we find an extraordinary Mid-Point structure where Mars/Neptune is partile the MC, both ecliptically and mundo.

“We consider midpoints to the angles important.” Cyril Fagan, ‘Primer of Sidereal Astrology’.

Also, when we look at the Mid-Point of angular Mars/Saturn, we discover it at 27Ge14, 1 degree 17 min squaring the MC at 25Pi57.

Mars-Neptune: “This is another of those “killing” combinations, due to its potency for evil-working in the life.” Donald Bradely, Solar and Lunar Returns.

Mars-Saturn: “The most dreaded of all dual transits are those of the malefics, Mars, and Saturn,…” Cyril Fagan, Solunars Handbook.

Both of the above quotes were written pertaining to angular symbolism when found in a Solunar chart. There can be no question, without a doubt, using Jim’s teachings, the primary & potent angular ‘theme’ setters, for Sibly’s 1864 SSR, is the planetary symbolism quoted above!

Jim’s SSR teachings explicitly instruct us, after analyzing the angular ‘theme’ setters of a SSR-- to next move to the ‘all important’ Solar Moon and its aspects. Remember, Jim also teaches us to pay close attention to ‘partile’ (under one degree) aspects, no matter where they fall on the mundane wheel of a Solunar map. What do we find with Solar Moon in Sibly’s 1864 SSR for the USA? There are only two dynamic aspects to Solar Moon, both partile, a 45 to Solar Uranus, and a 90 to Solar Pluto. I would class this Solar Moon and her aspects as dead-on symbolism for the Country experiencing, sudden un-expected news (Uranus) with the atomic bomb intensity of (Pluto), ‘dramatically bringing to end eras in the life’…affecting the emotions (Moon) of the people (Moon) in mundane maps.

Astounding! I think we need to investigate further with Jim’s SSR teachings associated with Sibly’s USA Natal Chart. It must be realized by the astrologer, the above astrological symbolism, using Jim’s teachings, would not be on Sibly’s 1864 SSR without an ACCURATE TIMED BIRTH CHART!

Regards, Steve

[David Stanton]

Jim, I just got back from my long daily walk. Got to pondering Sibly’s 1864 SSR and told myself the mathematical precision and symbolism was ‘too good to be true’. Did I keystroke the correct procedure in Solarfire to get the accurate MC of 25Pi42?

Steve

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:34 pm

SteveS wrote:
Jim, I just got back from my long daily walk. Got to pondering Sibly’s 1864 SSR and told myself the mathematical precision and symbolism was ‘too good to be true’. Did I keystroke the correct procedure in Solarfire to get the accurate MC of 25Pi42?

Yes, give or take a few minutes based on exact coordinates used.

I'm not impressed with the SSR, though. Two main events happened that year: The end of the Civil War and the assassination of the President. This already complicates things because we'd expect different symbolism for each one. Nothing is very close to the angles except natal Saturn (not even transiting Saturn showing the loss and imposed hardship). The only other thing really on an angle is the Sun, and it's a well-aspected Sun, being in close conjunction with Venus. Moon square Pluto is the only thing in the entire chart that makes me give it a serious look.

On the other hand - though I'm not too crazy about Solunars for this sort of chart - the SSR for the "shortly past noon" chart has natal Pluto at the Midheaven, transiting Jupiter the closest planet to an angle, and a Jupiter-Pluto opposition across the horizon. That covers all the main events - the enormous victory, the epoch-changing turning-point, and the President's death - quite nicely.

The SLR of the "shortly past noon" chart has t. Saturn at 5 Libra 52 square r. Pluto at 5 Capricorn 56, with Ascendant 5 Aries 21!

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:04 pm

No appropriate symbolism is shown with Sibly's 01 SSR or SLR for 9/11. There is some interesting angular/partile symbolism on Sibly’s USA Natal Chart with the transit Chart of 9/11. Natal Ascendant 20SC. tr. PL 17SC partile 180 Natal UR17TA, tr. SA partile the Descending Angle 20TA. Any thoughts with this appropriate symbolism for the 9/11 event?

Steve

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:08 am

Well, the main thing is that it was centered around the Saturn-Pluto opposition. Whatever ways this showed up, it was the main point.

In any case, on 9/11 t. Pluto at 17°53' Scorpio opposed USA r. Uranus at 17°18' Taurus (sesqui-square r. Mercury at 2°40' Cancer). t. Uranus 27°05' Capricorn sesquisquared r. Venus at 11°14' Gemini. t. Saturn 20°00' Taurus was sesquisquare r. Pluto 5°56' Capricorn. And the Midheaven at the time of the first plane strike was the exact degree of the USA r. Sun.

There was a partile progressed Sun-Moon square. Progressed Mars was 11' from the r. Eastpoint of the "shortly past noon" USA chart.

Though the USA SSR preceeding 9/11/2001 had transiting Jupiter and natal Venus near the Ascendant, the closest angular contacts involved the Midheaven (18°33' Aquarius) square Pluto (18°19' Scorpio), and the Eastpoint (21°04' Taurus) opposite Mars (21°17' Scorpio). Solar Moon at 21°53' Capricorn was exactly square that Mars, and their midpoint, 21°35' Gemini, was 4' from USA r. Sun.

The USA ("shortly past noon") SLR of September 1, 2001, had t. Mars rising opposite r. Mars on the Descendant (both square r. Neptune). The Q@ of that SLR had t. Mars conjunct the Ascendant within 1°.

The SNQ2 had t. Neptune conjunct the Westpoint and, from that spot, 11' from square progressed Saturn. (It also had t. Venus conjunct the Ascendant. Was this the outpouring of world sympathy?)

The Kinetic Lunar of September 9 had Saturn opposite Pluto in the immediate foreground along with r. Uranus - t. Saturn conjunct r. Uranus at the Midheaven - with Uranus half a degree from square the Ascendant.

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:35 am

Jim wrote:
Well, the main thing is that it was centered around the Saturn-Pluto opposition. Whatever ways this showed up, it was the main point.

I certainly agree with this Saturn-Pluto theme! Jim, your past noon chart offers more valid symbolism for the 9/11 event than Sibly’s chart for 9/11. You have stated your research has proven to you that Solunars with national charts do not reflect the rich symbolism as with people and I can certainly understand this issue. Reading national charts is a highly subjective matter and I think we are forced to choose the significant events in history in order to get any kind of Solunar sense for the symbolism with national charts. My personal opinion, regardless of which national chart is used, there will only be limited isolated cases of valid Solunar symbolism associated with historic events of a national chart—this is what I am trying to compare & analyze. I am not trying to get in a pissing contest with anyone over their choice of different timed USA charts and I understand there is different and valid symbolism for the different timed national charts. I am just trying to learn and understand which timed national chart(s) to choose from-- using mainly Solunar techniques. I have done very little work with national charts—I mainly rely on the Presidents charts to (maybe) get a feel for any possible significant mundane conditions for the country. I appreciate your analysis with your choice of the past noon national chart —it helps me learn.

Steve

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:41 am

No need for pissing match, agreed!

Just to be clear, let me rephrase my maiun point on this matter: You're saying, "I'm trying to test variants of Chart A using Technique X." However, Technique X has historically proven to be flakey regarding charts in the category of Chart A. Therefore, Technique X doesn't provide a high-reliability test compared to, say, Techniques Y and Z.

This doesn't mean not to test! Go for it! But it does mean that you should carry into the test a different expectation set than if it were a different study.

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:55 am

Jim, I just finished scanning the nation’s 1963 (President Kennedy assassination) SSR (DC) with your past noon time. Noticed Mars partile conjunct Asc. by a few minutes-- ecliptic and mundo. Also, Natal Mars-Neptune was in foreground. I am sure you have analyzed this SSR in the past. This seems to me to be very appropriate symbolism for an accosted, angered, and tormented nation. Also, noticed t. Mars partile 45 SSR Moon on Nov. 23rd & t. Mars partile 90 SSR Asc. on the Nov. 20th. Also noted the Nov. 23rd SLR featured a foreground Uranus-Pluto squaring Mercury. Do you consider these 1963 Solunar maps to be an exception for validating Solunar symbolism with the national chart?

Regards, Steve

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:30 am

Wow, that's pretty good!

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:05 am

Jim, tell me again or refer me to a prior post how the past noon time was derived for the USA chart.

Steve

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:20 pm

SteveS wrote:
Jim, tell me again or refer me to a prior post how the past noon time was derived for the USA chart.

Source? I haven't a clue. Never cared enough to track it down. All I cared about was that it worked.

It was running around just before WW II and was embraced by Llewellyn George (who rectified it a few minutes). I have several articles in old journals from the 1940s by a young Tropical astrologer named Donald Bradley who wrote eloquently on it.

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:24 pm

Some 9/11 anniversary thoughts pertaining to a speculative USA Chart.

There are various timed USA Charts. The many questions of which chart is more relevant for events in the USA has always been a very controversial issue among astrologers. With my limited amount of research-- no one particular USA chart substantiates (in my book of opinions) enough symbolic consistency using the methods of Sidereal Astrology. However, the Sibly Natal Chart shows impressive angular symbolism for the event of 9/11. If anyone is interested you can google ‘Sibly Chart’ for some interesting reading. Angularity is the ‘cornerstone’ for Cyril Fagan’s teachings and what I find most interesting about the Sibly Chart is the fact that Pluto was transiting the Sibly Ascendant for the first time in America’s history and was partile 180 USA Natal Uranus. Transiting Saturn was partile conjunct Sibly’s Descendant. There are many layers of important astrological symbolism; but, Jim’s/Fagan’s teachings have taught me the ‘reigning’ symbolism in all of astrology is partile angular aspects—these consistency produce ‘outstanding incidents’ pertaining to the astrological symbolism associated with the angles. Robert Hand documented and stated near Easter 2001, Saturn-Pluto aspects are the chief symbolic planetary paring that symbolizes terrorism. Robert stated in spring of 2001: … “Also, something new has arisen in the Middle East: the difficulties with terrorism either supported by or harbored by the Taliban…”

I really don’t understand how an exact time for the birth of a nation can be determined and have many mixed feelings pertaining to the branch of mundane astrology. But, I do have respect for the esoteric knowledge of Masonic lore when it comes to history and certain Mason’s were instrumental in forging our Nation. Also, ecliptically the USA Sun conjuncts the Star Sirius. The ancient Egyptians placed great importance on the Star Sirius and as far as I am concerned-- a great impulse of Masonic esoteric/artistry was probably responsible for the architect/construction of the Giza plateau. I don’t think the USA Sun/Sirius connection is a coincidence and it could be concluded that the day of July 4th was esoterically chosen by Masonic knowledge, but this still leaves the question why the time of 5:10 PM was stated by Sibly. Again this is speculative thoughts with very little research on my behalf pertaining to sidereal astrology and the Sibly Chart--- and is offered for Food for Thought for the astrologer.

Regards, Steve

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:51 am

Robotron wrote:
Is Sibly otherwise a highly respected astrologer and occultist, or was he a parlor magician accused of plagiarism in his astrology (according to ADB)?

I don’t know! Astrologer Geoffrey Cornelius did a-lot of in-depth research into the origin of the US Sibly chart. His research correlated Sibly had close contacts with Mason’s who were instrumental in forming the documents for USA independence declaration. I think Sibly was an astrologer, whether or not a highly respected astrologer is unclear.

Robotron wrote:
I subscribe to Ptolemy's concept of signs as ruling geographical regions and take that sign as rising…

If there is an actual true world scope (‘geographical regions’) pertaining to signs-- then the big question would arise: Where does one begin geographically the placement of the signs. Do we begin at Greenwich or with the Great Pyramid at Giza? Most astrologers who have addressed this question begin at Greenwich. If I was to conduct an in-depth research, I would begin geographically with the Great Pyramid.

Robotron wrote:
The practise is older than Ptolemy, for example particular nations were believed to be affected if mundane conjunctions or eclipses happened in certain signs.)

I agree. But again where does one begin the zero sign point geographically?

Regards, Steve

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:12 am

The issue isn't really whether Ebenezer Sibly was a noted or worthy astrologer - He was simply doing a chart from a news report. The problem is, the news report was in a London paper and expressed in London time, but Sibly interpreted it as Philadelphia time. When it is understood as London time, the time in Philadelphia is pretty close to the "shortly past noon" chart that has performed best over the centuries.

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:31 pm

robotron wrote:
Well I do think it's something of an issue if there are astrologers claiming that Sibly had hidden Masonic connections which actually inspired his chart.

I disagree only because - regardless of the alleged source - the chart still has to prove itself in use.

The fact that Sibly used a London newspaper account of the Declaration of Independence giving 5:10 PM, and the best proven, most reliable chart for that date is for 5:15 PM London time, is very captivating.

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:52 pm

robotron wrote:
I don't see myself how focusing on progressions for national charts is consistent with Fagan's ideas that it's SSR's and transits that cause external unforeseen events ("accidents") to natives.

Fagan used Secondary Progressions extensively also, and they are one of the basic techniques of astrology.

One of the issues here is the question of whether Solar and Lunar Returns are as applicable to national charts as they are to human charts. I regard it as an unresolved question. They often seem startlingly accurate; and, at other times, a complete flop. (This is quite different from human Solunars.) Therefore, I continue to look at them, but not to rely on them.

But, regardless of the importance of Solunars in this type of chart, transits and Secondary Progressions are going to continue to be enormously important.