Do different Angles have different expressions?

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm interested to know everyone's observations (observations, not theories) on whether Ascendant, Descendant, MC, and IC have distinctly different expressions in natal and return charts.

I'm revisiting this, and looking through my chart collection - and I realize I don't need to do this alone. Everybody's observation-based input is welcome. It also requires a fairly close knowledge of someone in order to catch this distinctions if, in fact, they exist,

My casual observation supported such distinctions sufficiently that I wrote a long section on the subject in Interpreseting Solar Returns, and (in the ACS edition) add individual short planet-angle interpretations. However, I've never been able to design a test that, to my satisfaction, adequately discerns this from large data collections. The only statistically-supported distinction we can make is from the Gauquelin studies, which confirm that for eminence and success in a profession and for witnessed character traits, Midheaven and Ascendant are about the same strength, and substantially more powerful than IC and Descendant.

One theory: There is no distinction between angles. A specific planet on Ascendant or Midheaven (for example) is merely anular and has no further distinction. It is simply strong (etc.) and affects all areas of life equally.

A different theory: While the last theory is true so far as it goes, a planet has a different, discernible, distinctive meaning on each angle - relating to areas of life in which we most experiece the planet's energies.

One thing of which I'm sure: If you only have one planet foreground, it's going to permeate every area of your life. For example, I only have one foreground planet, Moon on Descendant. Does this show particularly in terms of my relationships? Certainly. But it also shows in my basic character and presentation (I'm a lunar personality), career and public expression (for example, I'm a writer), etc. It may be that, because of this principle (the one angular planet permeates all areas), we only can see distinctions when planets occupy many angles so that there is contrast. For example (going from theory), an opposition across the horizon would have one planet on Ascendant and another on Descendant: Is the person's typical experience in life that they get into relationships where they are more described by the rising planet, and the other person (or the experience of the relationship itself) is described more by the setting planet? Or a rising planet squares (ecliptically or mundanely) a planet on IC: Is there an indication of how early life / formative environment experiences (described by the planet on the IC?) impacted and formed the outwardly expressed character (described by planet on Asc?). And so on.

These are all fine theory, and I've seen sufficient cases where it seemed to be "something like that" to warrant writing as if it's so; but, I'd like way more confirmation / reassessment than I can do alone. Are these distinctive, or are they homogenous?

Here is a summary of how I characterize the individual angles: http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37

I'd love to hear your observations and hear about actual case examples of natal charts and returns.

[Jim Eshelman]

Consider my SLR for my wedding, which occurred on March 17, 1974, Greencastle, IN. It's a perfectly marvelous wedding chart, with Jupiter exactly at MC tied (within minutes) into my natal Venus-Pluto. Jupiter was also square Mars which, aside from being a classic "husbandly" marker for a wedding, shows that we spent way more than we reasonably should have spent on the brief honeymoon. (Mars, of course, also aspected my Venus-Pluto, though about 1° or so wider than Jupiter.) Moon is partile square Ascendant from the Zenith. Saturn and Neptune were widely foreground, but way overshadowed by the above.

Now, notice this isn't so obvious as "It's a wedding, so it's all about the Descendant." Not so at all. In fact, the only thing that widely could be considered Dsc-ish is Moon square horizon.

If there is no distinction between the angles except in strength, then this is simply a celebratory occasion of "successful Venus," with Jupiter and Mars (especially Jupiter) aspecting natal Venus-Pluto, plus a strong shot of Moon.

Or, if there is angular distinction, then the primary focus is on MC/Zenith. This would mean that, amidst all this strutting male pride, etc., the main message of the chart deals with issues of outerworld tokens of prestige, honoring, gift-giving, etc.

My distention of Jupiter on MC (in contrast to other angles) from Interpreting Solar Returns is: "A high point. Progress and advance come more readily, especially in profession. At its best: respect, recognition, gain, elevation, advantage, confidence. Feeling good about self and accomplishments (arrogance, inflated ego). Generally, the road looks pretty smooth, encouraging ambitions." Most of this applies to the occasion (everything except explicit reference to profession). In fact, Jupiter on Dsc mentions "gregarious, sociable," and though we had a nice time with immediate family, I wouldn't describe my mood or behavior as especially gregarious, so the MC interpretation fits more directly.

Moon on Zenith is interpreted: "Receiving special attention (scrutiny), especially from people of higher rank or position. Visibility, publicity. Ambitious: emphasis on professional identity, development of public image; "on stage" to the world. Change and fluctuation in professional/occupational areas. Probable advantage. Possible PARENT issues." Other than perhaps (only perhaps!) the "ambition" issues, this is quite descriptive. Getting married was a "step up," certainly involved receiving special attention, and certainly involved parent issues. This is far more descriptive (despite the "professional identity" part) than if, say, Moon on Asc or EP interpretations had been applied. (If I'd said "public identity" instead of "professional identity," it would have been entirely right. Getting married is even called a change of status.)

[SteveS]

I have not kelp a statistical record, but going by my memory, I think the Dsc reflects much more symbolism close relationships. One Saturday, I was asked by a psychic to calculate all of her appointment natal charts. The psychic asked all her appointments to bring their birth certificates for an astrologer (me) to calculate their natals (back in the days of Nova Dos format). There were 11 appointment, all women. Everyone of the natal charts had prominent symbolism in 7th house, within 7 degrees of the Dsc. This was before I knew how to calculate in mundo, so planets could have been closer to Dsc than my eclipto eyes registered. After the psychic finished for the day, I told her all the women had potent 7th house/ Descendant symbolism reflecting concerns about close relationships, and the psychic told me everyone of the readings concerned close relationships. Mind you, this was Natal Charts, not Return charts.

[SteveS]

Today I was talking with a Psychic. She told me she got a Vedic reading from James Braha and was blown away with his hit about her failed marriages, five divorces. I asked for her natal info:

Note Mars & Saturn squeezing her Dsc, closer in mundo. Enough said about the WHY for 5 divorces.

https://imgur.com/a/9eJoZ

[Jim Eshelman]

What I've noticed so far is that in return charts, it does make a noticeable difference which angle a planet is on. The descriptions for transiting planets on various angles fit very accurately, from my experience. This is most easy to observe with the Moon of return chart (either SSR or SLR).

That's good feedback, thanks. Not just because I like being right <g>, but to have information about how right, and that these are useful.

In natal charts, it seems that the difference does exist, but is not so easy to notice as in solunars, especially if it involves an angular axis (i.e. planets on both MC and IC, or on AC and DC).

That sounds strange to me. I'd think that, if these distinctions are valid, they would fit more along the axis because the planets would polarize more (public vs, private expressions of identity and authority, or emerging / self-expressing vs. submerging / others-identified).

I've started browsing through my collection of charts last night, looking specifically for people with angular Lights, to analyze the differences between those having the same Light on a different angle. I have to dig deeper into this in order to make a definite conclusion.

I look forward to your report.

My own chart: Ur,Ju on AC and Ve on DC. I do identify (as automatic, subconscious tendency) slightly more with the Ju-Ur than with Venus; but I express the whole combo, and in practice it's always a mixture of all three planets, along with Ne on EP.

These distinctions can be subtle, of course - one of the reasons for the uncertainty in the first place. I don't think of oppositions as "polarizing" per se (a common Tropical interpretation), but I've often seen this along the angles. I remember one woman who had Moon rising opposition Mars setting, and, not surprising, had a lot of conflict in relationships. (This could be anticipated even without distinctions between the angles, just from the angular Moon-Mars.) What was interesting to me was that, even though she was obviously acerbic, argumentative, and hair-trigger on some kind of reactions herself, her experience was that her male partners were always the nasty ones. (Descendant is easy to project: Our minds often turn "how we experience relationship itself" into "how I experience this other person.") It was as if she were experiencing a Mars opposition to her Moon (by transit or interchange) - a lot of similarity in how that played out.

So, my question to you: Is there, for example, some sense in your relationships that another's Venus is aspecting your Jupiter-Uranus? Or that you are experiencing a 'Venus transit to your Jupiter-Uranus, while you experience others' connected to you as having the reality that Jupiter-Uranus is aspecting their Venus?

[TheScales_BothWays]

I think it's clear to fellow forum members here on how Neptunian I can get in Descendant matters. I can see myself getting so "into" a possible partner, being completely overwhelmed and submerged by his attractiveness, presence and energies, slowly feeling myself "dissolving" or "merging" into him. Jim once described my sexual attraction profile:

You do seem drawn to conditions that will humiliate you and devastate you. I'm not judging - that's a fairly common sexual attraction profile (wanting to be owned, overwhelmed, ripped open, demeaned, utterly controlled of a specific other)

The latter part in brackets/parentheses is especially true, but maybe not so much with the humiliation, devastation and demeaning—especially after the events of my 2015 SSR. I believe the negative part is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy, how I can become once I sense possible danger and confirmation through astrology or through others' confessions regarding the person, and not doing anything about it in fear or confusion. Now I'm very cautious that I know I will truly strive to get out of draining Neptunian and Neptune-on-Descendant situations as best as possible if I get into one.

Of interest, I have a Mars setting line going through Iran (Persia) and a Mars sq. MC (on the Western hemisphere) line with an adjacent Mars on Westpoint line going through Pakistan. I certainly find Iranian/Persian and Pakistani men as one of the most attractive on the planet! Recently I went to a supermarket in an area filled with immigrants, Pakistanis included. Had a great time eating Pakistani eye candy yo.

--------------------------------------------------

Today I was talking with a Psychic. She told me she got a Vedic reading from James Braha and was blown away with his hit about her failed marriages, five divorces. I asked for her natal info:

Note Mars & Saturn squeezing her Dsc, closer in mundo. Enough said about the WHY for 5 divorces.

https://imgur.com/a/9eJoZ

Ouch! If that was a return chart for me, I have it even worse, since I would be having Venus closely rising too.

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks, Scales. Let me ask you a question from the other side: Given that you are very Neptunian in Descendant matters, is it more or less equally true that you are Neptunian in other areas of your life? Is "Neptune in relationships" just a subset of "Neptune in everything," and we're fooling ourselves about the seeming angle distinction? Or does it especially concentrate (perhaps not exclusively) in that one area of your life-expression?

Is Jupiter more an expression of your career direction and outer-world life-expression, vs. Neptune for relationship matters? Is your exact Jupiter-Neptune bifurcated (split) this way (more or less), or are they both comparably expressive in both areas of your life (and more)?

[TheScales_BothWays]

I am definitely Neptunian in many areas of my life. "Neptune in relationships" could just as well be a subset of "Neptune in Everything," but it definitely is a significant one. (Whether is it because of the fact my Neptune is on the Descendant after all, or that I'm a Libra, and that would make me be naturally sensitive to Descendant matters, or both, I don't quite know.)

and we're fooling ourselves about the seeming angle distinction?

"Fooling" is such a strong word though. I don't have much to say about this due to my lack of experience with enough charts and people, but usually I consider an angular planet as an angular planet alone, as you've told me to when I first came here, and I've found that angle distinction is usually not too necessary, although there are great cases for a planet being on such and such angles here and there.

Is Jupiter more an expression of your career direction and outer-world life-expression, vs. Neptune for relationship matters? Is your exact Jupiter-Neptune bifurcated (split) this way (more or less), or are they both comparably expressive in both areas of your life (and more)?

Both and more, for sure. My angular Jupiter-Neptune gives me my sense of drama, dramatic art, dramatic [artistic] expression, optimism, thriving in strong and grand emotions, fantasy, and (in some sense) my spirituality and many more, that would definitely be expressive of me in Ascendant ways, and MC wise, career directions and outer-world life-expressions. As for the IC's "inner self" matters, I am an INFP personality type according to the Myers-Briggs test, and I believe my Jupiter-Neptune plays a strong role in it along with my Sun's constellation, Libra and a little bit of my partile Moon-Mercury square too. You may go through reading the page (and go deeper through the 6-7 pages too if you have the time) and see how my Libra and Jupiter-Neptune symbolisms of my chart fit in many places.

[mikestar13]

My experience has been that this factor is about the same strength as house position: real but quite subtle and pretty safe to ignore , whereas angualrity itself is critically important. BTW, a shout out to Scales from your INFJ cousin!

[Jim Eshelman]

My experience has been that this factor is about the same strength as house position: real but quite subtle and pretty safe to ignore , whereas angualrity itself is critically important. BTW, a shout out to Scales from your INFJ cousin!

Probably close to my historic view, and probably my current one.

Ironically, though, you and I were just having a private conversation about a friend of yours going through a marriage crisis who not only has Neptune transiting an angle, but specifically Neptune transiting her Descendant... and Sun on Westpoint for the day.

[mikestar13]

Ironically, though, you and I were just having a private conversation about a friend of yours going through a marriage crisis who not only has Neptune transiting an angle, but specifically Neptune transiting her Descendant... and Sun on Westpoint for the day.

That also fits. When something is intense enough by whatever definition, and my friends case is definitely intense, the more subtle factors manifest more, where were my friend in in different place manifested as something innocuous such as a general aura of dreaminess/loopiness, thing like specific angles are less likely to be meaningful. Compare salting an explosive device with fluorine vs. cobalt. Now in the case the explosive is an atomic bomb were talking rendering an area uninhabitable for 1 day vs. 100,000 years. If the explosive device is a firecracker, the effect is being uninhabitable for 0 seconds in either case.

[Danica]

Re my collection of people with Luminaries angular, which I looked into to see if people with same Light on different angle have a noticeable difference in expressing it:

I've analyzed the Sun-angular list. Those with Sun on MC (I have 9 people on this list) clearly stand out as natural Authorities in their environment; others see them as accomplished, resourceful, kind of heroic figures and tend to flock around them - often in groups!
I don't see people with Sun on other angles having this exact same aura of natural authority. It's very teacher-like and parent-like. Not intrusive in any way.

Together, groups with Sun on AC and Sun on DC (I have 10 people with Sun on AC and only 4 of them on DC) visibly differ from the people with Sun on MC-IC axis, in that they are self-oriented & self-centered in their immediate contacts with others, and have a distinct vibe of intrusiveness (some more, some less intense).

Between the AC and DC group, I find it much easier to communicate with the Sun-AC bunch than those with Sun on DC; the Sun on DC group seems much more self-involved and when talking with them, you don't feel they actually listen to you - their attention seems to be primarily focused on expressing themselves. (This trait goes for Sun in 7th house too - I know 3 people with Sun in the 7th, but not angular - their energy and demeanor have this same intrusive, overbearing quality as people with Sun on the angle itself).

People with Sun on IC (I know 7 of them) are the most "hidden from public eyes" of all of them. All of these seven except one (who has, btw, both Lights on IC, and in Sagittarius) are minding-my-own-business kind of people, not engaged in public work (which the three other groups share as common trait) and not showing interest for it. There's the vitality of angular Sun, and there's an aura of lifting-others-up; none of them is intrusive or overbearing (some of them are just the opposite!) as those with Sun on AC-DC, and none, except that one double Sag with both Lights on IC, are visible figures of authority.

[to be continued; I plan to go through Mars angular, when done with the Moon angular]

[Lance]

I wanted to bump this back up because I'm interested.

I'm afraid I don't have clear data to supply.

My sister-in-law has Mercury and Mars conjunct, with the Sun moderately conjunct both of these, all Foreground in Capricorn on her MC. She's a dentist with a reputation for having a quick, sharp tongue and a no-B.S. personality. However, I'm not sure what would be different about her reputation for the sharp-tongue, etc. if Mars and Mercury were on her Descendant.

I know of two people with Saturn foreground on their Descendant. They both have reputations for "correcting" others according to their own worldviews. I do have to admit that I could be biased because each of their Saturns is opposite either my own Neptune or Uranus, and I experience this pointedly.

[Jim Eshelman]

One of the things I noticed about several Saturn-Descendant people years ago was that they need other people to notice, recognize and confirm how hard they work.

I think it's so that Saturn rising will just work... but Saturn setting needs you to notice that they work and even make them more important because they do.

[Lance]

So, for my two examples, regarding the need for other people to notice, recognize and confirm how hard they work, it's definitely true of one of them.

The other one... does this count? Now that she has her PhD, she will always find a way to work it into a conversation - either that she has a PhD or that she is a "Scientist." Always. It could be a drinking game. [Correction: her Saturn conj. my Uranus 0°44' - not opp. my Neptune as I thought])