U.S. Horoscope - Hazelrigg-George vs. Sibly

[Jim Eshelman]

I just found a fascinating "letters to the editor" exchange in American Astrology July 1962 between Garth Allen and H.M. Boyd. I think it likely that this was Helen M. Boyd who later espoused a 1775 birth chart for the United States, but there is no way for me to confirm that. Boyd wrote a very long letter on historic accounts of what happened on July 4, 1776, challenging statements Garth Allen had made in an annual prediction article, so the editor let "Garth Allen" answer. There are some fascinating facts and thoughts here that I've never seen before. He wrote in part:

Many times in print I have averred having no "U.S. chart" to offer or espouse. When I have mentioned specific configurations in the "national horoscope," it is no accident that these always are equally applicable to every possible chart erectable for the P.M. hours - noon to evening - of July 4, 1776. Yes, the original Glorious Fourth and for no other day. Correspondent Boyd and I are in closer agreement than he realizes.

...The key reason for my personal indecision in this matter is that the Sibly-Hall chart, for around 5 P.M. [5:10 PM LMT] seems to be the likeliest from a technical point of view. That is, standard systems of progression applied to it appear to work out well statistically over the long haul. From the interpretation standpoint the Hazelrigg-George map, cast for a few minutes past noon, is far and away the most acceptable (and when Bija-corrected progressions are used, it beats even the Sibly-Hall map). The ideal horoscope would be one which can pas both acid tests, and keep passing them year after year, generation after generation.

[SteveS]

Thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

I have long espoused the "shortly past noon" chart, though, for the record, my first article ever published in American Astrology was an article recommending evidence for Sibly. I've long been quite willing to accept that I wasn't necessarily right about everything at age 16 .

I've been impressed by the Bradley evidence (under numerous names, including his own) for the "shortly past noon" chart, the final rectification of which by Llewellyn George as 12:14:42 PM LMT. Progressed angles look quite good and, in fact, Mr. Bowser evidently has a whole book devoted to primary directed angle contacts in that chart. I also think it is by far the most descriptive (read as a natal chart) of the American people and the nation as a whole.

I also knew that Bradley had accumulated solid statistics on its responsiveness to transits and progressions. What I didn't know - and just learned today for the first time - is that, by conventional (what we now call Q2) secondary progressions, his statistics support the Sibly chart most!

All of the most impressive data on secondary progressions and the Hazelrigg-George chart are using (as he here called it) Bija-corrected progressions, i.e., the Q1. This has always been a trouble-spot for me. If it were not for this one fact, I could confidently say that there really was no evidence of any substance that the Q1 rate is valid. Instead, I've always had to say, "There's really no evidence to support the Q1 rate at all. Except, of course, the U.S. chart, which is bizarrely responsive to that rate."

Knowing that the "past noon" chart is most responsive (at a statistically significant level) to Q1 progressions and the "past 5" chart most responsive (at a statistically significant level) to Q2 progressions changes the picture more than a little.

So I'm starting this thread in case anyone else wants to dig. As I have time, I'll occasionally run up some events with transits and progressions to Sibly just to see what kind of thing we're talking about (and I'll probably do some basic ones tonight). I'm just stirring the pot to shake up comfort zones a little, so consider the pot stirred.

[Jim Eshelman]

Progressions and time-distinctive transits to the Sibly chart for deaths of U.S. presidents, starting with the ones murdered. (In all of these, I'm only concentrating on details that change with different times, but I might mention some others.)

ABRAHAM LINCOLN
t Mars-Neptune sq. (33') exactly on SNQ angles.
p Sun within 2° of MC

JAMES GARFIELD (all for DC)
SHOT: t Pluto sq. r Moon 08'
p Moon-Neptune sq. 56', sextile p Sun-Saturn conj. 49'
p Sun-Pluto sq. 54'
SNQ MC op. t Sun 0°14', r Saturn 1°36' from SNQ Dsc (too wide?)
DIED: t Pluto sq. r Moon 30'
Several progressed aspects just a bit too wide, but this:
t Sun-Mars sq. (39') exactly on p. Neptune Sun is 02', Mars partile)
-- all about 2-3° from SNQ IC, which is to wide IMO
p Sun-Saturn conj. exactly 60' separating, probably in orb for all birth times; but also p Sun-Pluto sq. 41'.
Not sure what it means, but p Jupiter, Saturn, Sun are right on r Mercury.

WILLIAM McKINLEY (all for DC)
SHOT: t Uranus conj. r. Asc 60', DC Asc 13'
t Neptune sq. DC MC 30'
SNQ EP conj. r Venus
DIED: t Uranus conj. DC Asc 05'
t Neptune sq. DC MC 36'
t Jupiter sq. r MC 45'
SNQ Asc op. r Pluto 15', sq. p Saturn 36'
t Neptune sq. p Moon 56'

JOHN KENNEDY
DC: t Sun sq. r Moon 03' - and that's all!!
DALLAS: t Sun conj. TX Asc 65'
t Uranus conj. t MC 27'
-- t Mercury sq. TX MC 31', sq. Uranus 04'
t Sun sq. r Moon 03'
SNQ Asc sq. r Pluto 46', sq. p Pluto 58'
p EP conj. p Saturn 29'


I can easily say: There's nothing wrong with any of these and, for the most part, they are quite impressive.

[Jim Eshelman]

Next, the presidents who died in office but not from murder, plus a few other leader deaths of national impact and some related incidents.

WILLIAM HENRY HARRISON
t Pluto sq. p Moon 41'
(That's it. I guess something is better than nothing when it fits.)

ZACHARY TAYLOR
p Moon-Mars sq. 63' (too wide IMO)
SNQ Asc conj. t Neptune 51'
SNQ MC sq. t Jupiter 05'
(Not satisfying, weird at best.)

WARREN G. HARDING
(Perfectly appropriate transits, e.g., Saturn sq. r Sun 14', which don't speak to the issue of time.)
DC: p Moon-Mars sextile 35'
p Mars sq. r Mars 11', conj. r Neptune 51' with p Mars conj. SNQ EP, sq. SNQ MC
SNQ MC op. p Mars 71' (too wide IMO)
SNQ Asc conj. t Pluto 56'
(San Francisco adds nothing useful.)

FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT
t Mars sq. r Asc 10'
SNQ MC conj. p Mercury 04', sq. r Neptune 50', op. r Mars 1°52' (too wide)
-- p Mercury sq. r Neptune 46'


Moving to a few others:

RICHARD NIXON RESIGNED
(p Mars sq. r Sun 03' but doesn't really help with time)
t Pluto conj. r MC 64'
t Jupiter sq. r Asc 62'

MARTIN LUTHER KING MURDERED
p Moon-Saturn trine 34'
SNQ Asc conj. t Saturn 35', t Sun 39'; sq. r Sun 04'
-- t Sun-Saturn conj. 04' sq. r Sun 39'-43'

BOBBY KENNEDY MURDERED
DC: t Sun conj. r Dsc 21'
SNQ Asc conj. t Mercury 15'
SNQ MC sq. p Uranus 37'
LA: SNQ angles are all just a bit off, never quite close enough

BUSH v. GORE DECISION
t Mercury conj. DC Asc 58'; t Pluto conj. DC Asc 1°31'
-- Mercury-Pluto conj. 33'
SNQ MC conj. t Mars 20'


These events aren't as dramatic as the last, nor as consistently good. I think on balance they don't necessarily confirm this time, but they clearly don't rule it out (and they give at least some additional credence to it as a possibility).

[Jim Eshelman]

9/11
(Yowsa, look at this!)
t Saturn conj. r Dsc 44' [!!!]
t Pluto op. r Uranus 36' is < 2° from DC Asc
t Mars sq. DC MC 43'
p Moon-Mercury sq. 53'
p Sun conj. r Moon 20' [doesn't help with time]
SNQ Asc conj. r Saturn 06' [!!!]
SNQ MC conj. p Jupiter 43'

PEARL HARBOR
DC: (Several excellent aspects that don't help with the time.)
t Sun conj. r Asc 36'
PEARL HARBOR: SNQ MC conj. t Uranus 53'
SNQ Asc op. r Moon 28'

HIROSHIMA
t Neptune conj. r MC 57'
t Pluto sq. p Moon 20'
SNQ Asc conj. p Venus 53', sq. p Saturn 27'

[Jim Eshelman]

MOON LANDING
t Venus on r Dsc 0°01' or DC Dsc 54'
t Jupiter on DC MC 58'
t Uranus on DC MC 62'
p Sun op. r Mercury 02' [!!!] [doesn't help with time, but impresive!]
p Moon sq. r Mars 48'

OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING
DC: t Jupiter conj. r Asc 32' [???]
t Pluto sq. r Moon 12' [!!!]
p Moon conj. r Moon 08'
t Pluto sq. p Moon 20'
SNQ Asc conj. r Uranus 07'
OK: t Pluto conj. OK Asc 33' [same Pluto transits to two Moons]
SNQ MC conj. t Uranus 1°16', r Pluto 1°30', sq. t Sun 04'
-- t Uranus conj. r Pluto 14'

[SteveS]

I have long ago red flagged this timed chart (7/4/1776, 12:14:12 PM) made possible by the work of Sidereal Astrologers-- with high % for possible financial panic conditions happening 2022-2024. Note how the near partile 90 of r. Mars-Neptune for this USA timed chart is brought into partile contact with SA progressed angles of the MC/IC axis (29 Aqu/29 Leo in 2023). Beginning app 12/12/2023 we see this huge r. almost partile 90 Mars-Neptune angular SA picture:

SA IC 29,49 Leo
r. Neptune 00,48 Virgo
r. Mars 29,39 Taurus
t. Neptune 29,50 Aqu. ***
SA MC 29,29 Aqu

When I put this together with the 4 malefic Sidereal Solar Ingresses in 2021, I see very troubled times beginning in the termed 2021-2025, no matter who is Prez. I think 2021 has high % beginning the 'start' of very troubled times for USA leading-up to this huge Mars-Neptune angular picture for this timed USA chart. Since I have recognized the great work by Jim with his great historical financial panics Report with history of USA, I came to realize the number 1 planetary combo for any type of possible 'severe' financial panic is Mars (attack)-Neptune (panic).