Saturn and The Art of Being

[sotonye]

I might be seeing a thing that isn't there, but if it is and if you can see it too, maybe you can help me explain it a little better.

Whenever I have seen Saturn figured prominently in a geniture, either by being Angular or closely aspecting a luminary, there seems to be a corresponding awkwardness about the native, the best description I have of which is that he simply does not know how to be. You can see it in his eyes, in the way he moves his lips when he speaks, you can see it when he does anything, a certain precariousness, a certain doubling back of awarenessness to observe whether any gesture at all is the right one. This air that he carries is so subtle, you'd hardly notice it were it not for the fact that it's usually closely attended by melancholy. Whatever it is, it's a certain effort put toward his existence, an effort which for most others is absent, since for them it all comes naturally. The native seems to me as if he's out of place at all times.

To further the point maybe it would good to provide contrast. Think about the commanding presence of an angular sun individual, he takes every step as if the ground is pathed with his name, he speaks to everyone with a certain ease and self assurance. He doesn't try to be what he is, he is what he is without effort, and for this reason others follow him, they might even want to be him, emulate him.

Again maybe I'm seeing things that are simply not there, but there seems to be an issue with the Art of Being for Saturn individuals.

[Jim Eshelman]

Saturn within us primarily comes from fear. It's essential function is physical survival, so all of the psychological resources it commands are mobilized to that task. You have done an excellent job of capturing the behavior of one who lives fundamentally in fear, caution, wariness, mindfully of surroundings and having no basic trust that one will be able to survive - whether physically, socially, or psychologically.

You are describing a person whose basic reality is, "Things here will kill me or take from me unless I'm careful, in control, have things organized just right, do things just right to survive."

[sotonye]

Saturn within us primarily comes from fear. It's essential function is physical survival, so all of the psychological resources it commands are mobilized to that task. You have done an excellent job of capturing the behavior of one who lives fundamentally in fear, caution, wariness, mindfully of surroundings and having no basic trust that one will be able to survive - whether physically, socially, or psychologically.

So there is something to it! This is great stuff here and I'm glad you thought the same of what I said, it really helps solidify my understanding. Thank you Mr. Eshelman.

You are describing a person whose basic reality is, "Things here will kill me or take from me unless I'm careful, in control, have things organized just right, do things just right to survive."

This is EXACTlY it

[Arena]

This is not an accurate description at all of the ones I know of with Saturn angular...but it will also depend on Saturn's aspects. How many people do you know with an angular Saturn and in those cases, which planets does their Saturn aspect, if any? By all the examples I give below, your description seems totally inaccurate and by those examples it is obvious to me that you need to revise that opinion and look very carefully into a lot of real life cases.

I would describe the angular Saturn people I know of as having a strong, calm and measured appearance and posture, they know what is appropriate and socially acceptable. Very grounded most of the time (not always if Ur, Nep are strong as well). Probably many of them were shy in their childhood, but grow into very confident adults.

Examples of Sat on Asc: Sean Connery, Margaret Thatcher, Jeff Bridges, Bono, Jamie Lee Curtis.

Examples of Sat on MC: JFK, Paris Hilton, Sandra Bullock, Celine Dion, Queen Elizabeth, Ozzy Osborne, Justin Trudeau.

Just to add a wee bit more to give you a broader perspective of these examples:
Sean Connery: Saturn trine Sun-Nep, opp Mars&Jup, sq Mercury. Saturn closest to angle, followed by Jup&Mars
Margaret Thatcher: Saturn sextile Jup and trine Pluto. Saturn closest to angle, followed by the Moon on MC and Venus on EP.
Jeff Bridges: Saturn conj. Mars on ASC, square Sun&Merc on IC and the Moon is close to MC.
Bono: Saturn trine Sun. Saturn on ASC, Pluto sq MC.
Jamie Lee Curtis: Saturn conj. Mercury on ASC and trine Moon on the IC.
John F. Kennedy: Saturn wide conj Nep on MC, sextile Jupiter.
Paris Hilton: Saturn partile conj Jupiter on MC, sextile the Moon and wide trine to Venus. POF partile conj. WP and possibly a Nep conj to ASC (wide in ecliptic view).
Sandra Bullock: Saturn partile MC, Mercury&Uranus on IC, Venus, Mars and Nnode on ASC. Saturn's tightest aspect is partile quinc.Sun
Celine Dion: Saturn conj Sun and Nnode on MC, Moon and Mars square ASC.
Queen Elizabeth: Saturn partile MC, sq Jup&Mars (on EP) and sq Nep (on WP), trine Uranus. Nnode on DSC.
Ozzy Osborne: Saturn on MC trines the Moon, Mars and Jup, square the Sun&Mer (on EP) and sextiles Venus. Pluto square ASC.
Justin Trudeau: Saturn on MC opposite Nep on IC, trine Pluto and Venus, quinc. the Sun and sextile Mars. Note: Venus on Vx.

I have Saturn angular, but I also have Jupiter, Uranus, Nep ... my partner has Sun angular and yet I am like what you describe as Sun angular and he is more like what you describe as Saturn angular.

The bottomline is the same that I keep pointing out all the time. Do not read angularity of just one planet in isolation to other VERY important factors. Astrology is to be read with the broader picture of the whole chart and planets read in context with their aspects.

Things are really not as simple as you seem to want them to be in astrology

[Jim Eshelman]

Nobody said it was everybody. He was describing one recognizable type. I went back to root principles and showed how they could be expressed in that one root type.

Often they'll manifest differently - but his description matches a very distinctive, recognizable variant and I didn't want to confuse his observations with discussion of other types.

Nonetheless, for completion, here is my standard description intended to fit the majority of Saturn foreground people the majority of the time. The behavior described below arises out of the same fundamental needs and primary principles:

Needs to be self-reliant, self-sufficient, autonomous, independent; maturing is a process of securing these. Works hard, industrious. Survival instinct is strong & drives much of the behavior. Hardship likely (especially in youth); struggle for security; life’s demands seem severe (some are beaten down; some gain great strength & endurance). Cautious, emotionally reserved, self-protective, conscientious, methodical, austere (may shut others out emotionally). Beware self-restriction arising from fear.