Garth Allen's notes on Sidereal sign meaning

[By Jove]

I have a few questions. I know you can't read Garth Allen's mind but any help in understanding would be appreciated.

Taurus

1. Orientation to "Life of the Flesh" - somatonic in this respect. Orientation definitely to "youth" - love young people.

I tried looking up the definition of somatonic. Did Allen mean "somatotonic"? The common definition means someone who is extraverted and aggressive. That seems at odds with gentle Taurus.

6. "Universalistic Consciousness." Torch-bearers of true democracy. Will even give their lives to the "cause" for truth and democracy.

How would you interpret "universalistic consciousness"?

Cancer

15. Shadow effect.

I take that to mean Cancer likes mystery, drama, and a mystical view of the world. Mystery, drama, and subjective experience seem to be a big "water sign" thing, if you find the triplicities valid that is.

Leo

2. Needs eminence or at least centricity - "satellites" also necessary.

It's interesting how egoist are Leo and Cancer. And this makes sense since they are ruled by the luminaries. They also seem to represent archetypal maleness and femaleness (a king and a queen as it were).

Virgo

12. Virgo women make the world go around!

Whatever on earth that means.

Scorpio

7. Tendency toward LEFT, but EVER SO REACTIONARY THEMSELVES.

Looks contradictory. How is one left leaning and reactionary at the same time?

8. Not squeamish, but very PHALLIC-sensitive.

What does it exactly mean to be phallic sensitive?

Capricorn

9. Gravitation toward THE PAST, tradition, status quo, social mores.

Capricorn seems to be a rebel but apparently leans to tradition and the status quo? How does that work?

[Jim Eshelman]

I split this off from the thread where you posted it, since that isn't a discussion thread, and I've moved it here to the Constellations - Discussion forum.

Taurus

1. Orientation to "Life of the Flesh" - somatonic in this respect. Orientation definitely to "youth" - love young people.

I tried looking up the definition of somatonic. Did Allen mean "somatotonic"? The common definition means someone who is extraverted and aggressive. That seems at odds with gentle Taurus.

Yes, also written as somatotonic. Somatonia is one of the three character types described by W.H. Sheldon in his Constitutional Psychology. Garth Allen was quite taken with Sheldon, which got me quite taken with him. You can read about his work here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotyp ... psychology

Somatonic types generally mesomorphs, "characterized as hard, rugged, triangular, athletically built with well developed muscles, thick skin and good posture... inclined towards physical adventure and risk taking; and being vigorous, courageous, assertive, direct and dominant." Their body development relies most heavily on the muscles instead of the nerves like cerebrotonics or the gut like viscerotonics.

6. "Universalistic Consciousness." Torch-bearers of true democracy. Will even give their lives to the "cause" for truth and democracy.

How would you interpret "universalistic consciousness"?

From context, and what he said next ("true democracy"I think he means something like all-embracing, fully democratic. Universalism "considers all people in their formation," according to Wikipedia.

Cancer

15. Shadow effect.

I take that to mean Cancer likes mystery, drama, and a mystical view of the world. Mystery, drama, and subjective experience seem to be a big "water sign" thing, if you find the triplicities valid that is.

Read the two Garth Allen articles posted on Cancer. He goes into this in detail: Shadow is a fundamental archetype of Cancer. (I've expanded it by describing one already familiar set of Cancer traits as "living in the shadow of another;" but to get his ideas, read his articles: http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=146

Virgo

12. Virgo women make the world go around!

Whatever on earth that means.

I imagine he meant just what he said: The make the world work and do much of the world's work. I wouldn't have thought to put it that way, but I've known a whole lot of Virgo women right in the middle of most organizations and undertakings make sure all things are ready and all the parts are in motion. - I doubt he meant famous women in this - quite the opposite. (This, of course, is my interpretation. I never asked him what he meant.)

Scorpio

7. Tendency toward LEFT, but EVER SO REACTIONARY THEMSELVES.

Looks contradictory. How is one left leaning and reactionary at the same time?

Scorpios tend to be ideologically left-leaning but, as they age (like Cancer and Pisces, or Jung's Feeling type in general) they tend to attach more and more to the past. I don't know many that become outright conservative, but they do start attaching more to the past.

I don't know that this what he meant, though. I think it more likely (based on reading his syntax) he simply meant that the views they promulgate and how they actually are do not particularly match. I don't know what Scorpios he was considering but, for example, he had four U.S. presidents, Winston Churchill, Frederick Engels, Pope John XXIII, Martin Luther, Francisco Franco (oh, there's a great one!), radical Thomas Mooney, Walt Disney... these are among the charts he would have had in the 1950s and early '60s. Perhaps you can discover for us what he meant by studying them?

8. Not squeamish, but very PHALLIC-sensitive.

What does it exactly mean to be phallic sensitive?

The psyche is sensitized (responsive to) phallic themes, symbols, imagery. In most cases this means phallic archetypes drive the psyche, though it could just as well (rarely, I think) mean that it's an "issue" for them and they're suppressive of it. Anyway, the main thing is that the psyche is responsive to phallic archetypes.

Capricorn

9. Gravitation toward THE PAST, tradition, status quo, social mores.

Capricorn seems to be a rebel but apparently leans to tradition and the status quo? How does that work?

A rebel, but not progressive rebel. Remember, for example, that there were more Confederate generals in the Civil War that were Capricorns than any other: They were trying to hold onto their old way of life. Even when there is a collective sense of "moving forward" (e.g., also more U.S. Revolutionary War generals as Capricorns) it is mostly in a libertarian sense - preserving their right to live their own damn life as they see fit, without interference. It is much easier to find, today, political conservatives with Capricorn luminaries than liberals, and it's much the hallmark of the Republican Party in recent years.

Ayn Rand herself had Sun in Capricorn!

Republicans: Pres. Abraham Lincoln, Pres. William McKinley (double), Pres. Richard Nixon, Pres. Ronald Reagan, VP Dick Cheney, VP Dan Quayle, VP Charles Curtis, Speaker Paul Ryan, Sen. John McCain, Sen. Rick Santorum, Gov. Jeb Bush (double), Gov. Sarah Palin (double), plus Kellyanne Conway, John Roberts, Clarence Thomas, Sandra Day O'Connor, Robert Bork

Democrats: Pres. Franklin Roosevelt, Pres. Woodrow Wilson, VP John C. Breckinridge, Sen. Robert Kennedy

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Scorpio
7. Tendency toward LEFT, but EVER SO REACTIONARY THEMSELVES.

Looks contradictory. How is one left leaning and reactionary at the same time?

Scorpios tend to be ideologically left-leaning but, as they age (like Cancer and Pisces, or Jung's Feeling type in general) they tend to attach more and more to the past. I don't know many that become outright conservative, but they do start attaching more to the past.

I think this is also where the "I totally support all women's absolute right to choose" (leaning left) "but I personally would never have one and can't imagine wanting one." (leaning right)

[By Jove]

Yes, also written as somatotonic. Somatonia is one of the three character types described by W.H. Sheldon in his Constitutional Psychology. Garth Allen was quite taken with Sheldon, which got me quite taken with him. You can read about his work here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotyp ... psychology

Somatonic types generally mesomorphs, "characterized as hard, rugged, triangular, athletically built with well developed muscles, thick skin and good posture... inclined towards physical adventure and risk taking; and being vigorous, courageous, assertive, direct and dominant." Their body development relies most heavily on the muscles instead of the nerves like cerebrotonics or the gut like viscerotonics.

I get the physical aspect of Taurus, but not so much the assertiveness. Taurus, at least according to all the notes, seems rather gentle, not exactly the type to dominate.

Though I do see some very dominant egotistical Taurus people in history (Richard Wagner and the Marquis de Sade come to mind). But Oswald Spengler seems to be the more "typical" Taurus mold, as a brooding man fascinated by nature. Sade is also like this oddly enough, as Nature is like the one all powerful god of his novels.

Read the two Garth Allen articles posted on Cancer. He goes into this in detail: Shadow is a fundamental archetype of Cancer. (I've expanded it by describing one already familiar set of Cancer traits as "living in the shadow of another;" but to get his ideas, read his articles: http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=146

I get it now. Kind of like my double Cancer ex. She loves her dense philosophy books. I keep thinking of J.K. Rowling since she recreated wizardry for new generations.

Scorpios tend to be ideologically left-leaning but, as they age (like Cancer and Pisces, or Jung's Feeling type in general) they tend to attach more and more to the past. I don't know many that become outright conservative, but they do start attaching more to the past.

Would you consider Scorpio to be like the other "water" signs in key ways or is Scorpio the outlier?

As far as the charts are concerned, the Scorpio lefties (Engels, Twain, and Mooney) seemed to stay that way throughout their lives. Disney was pretty liberal fellow considering the 30-60s. Chomsky is an interesting case as he is an "old school" leftist, an analytical philosopher with strong Enlightenment beliefs.

A rebel, but not progressive rebel. Remember, for example, that there were more Confederate generals in the Civil War that were Capricorns than any other: They were trying to hold onto their old way of life. Even when there is a collective sense of "moving forward" (e.g., also more U.S. Revolutionary War generals as Capricorns) it is mostly in a libertarian sense - preserving their right to live their own damn life as they see fit, without interference. It is much easier to find, today, political conservatives with Capricorn luminaries than liberals, and it's much the hallmark of the Republican Party in recent years.

Don't forget this meme king.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntWieh7YIgY

I'll post more later.

[Jim Eshelman]

I get the physical aspect of Taurus, but not so much the assertiveness. Taurus, at least according to all the notes, seems rather gentle, not exactly the type to dominate.

Remember, he only said they were soma in the specific sense that they were oriented to "life of the flesh." (They do also tend to be mesomorphs, I think, though he didn't mention that.)

Would you consider Scorpio to be like the other "water" signs in key ways or is Scorpio the outlier?

To the extent that there is any commonality between those three constellations, Scorpio shares equally in those traits.

[Jim Eshelman]

Garth Allen wrote a long article on Sheldon's typology in the April 1961 issue of American Astrology. I really don't want to retype the whole thing, but if you remind me later I'll try to summarize it.

[Jim Eshelman]

I wrote he following on somatyping a while back.
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=490&p=3146

[By Jove]

Remember, he only said they were soma in the specific sense that they were oriented to "life of the flesh." (They do also tend to be mesomorphs, I think, though he didn't mention that.)

If only regarding "life of the flesh", then yes that's really Taurus. Just like Nature and Liebestod.

To the extent that there is any commonality between those three constellations, Scorpio shares equally in those traits.

Do you just mean Scorpio becoming more past-looking over time (like Cancer and Pisces) or does it include other stuff too? Like things about imagination, emotion, shadows, verisimilitude etc.

Garth Allen wrote a long article on Sheldon's typology in the April 1961 issue of American Astrology. I really don't want to retype the whole thing, but if you remind me later I'll try to summarize it.

Please don't lol. jk. I can see Allen was really into Carl Jung's psychology and archetype work. Very Cancer stuff (as Allen pointed out himself). Incidentally enough, Jordan Peterson, a pop psyche Jung of sorts, is a Taurus Sun.

[Jim Eshelman]

To the extent that there is any commonality between those three constellations, Scorpio shares equally in those traits.

Do you just mean Scorpio becoming more past-looking over time (like Cancer and Pisces) or does it include other stuff too? Like things about imagination, emotion, shadows, verisimilitude etc.

I don't consider imagination / shadow / etc. to be traits of that triad. I do accept (and see in them) some of the basic characteristics Myers-Briggs links to the Feeling type, especially that they primary orientation in time is to the past. Yes, I've known a number of older Scorpios who still habitually hold progressive views but behave increasingly conservatively, and especially attach to ideas of progressiveness (and other ideas) that were characteristic of their youth rather than their present. Another trait common to the three (Moon even more than Sun) is that they're the fun people you can most easily build a party around.

Garth Allen wrote a long article on Sheldon's typology in the April 1961 issue of American Astrology. I really don't want to retype the whole thing, but if you remind me later I'll try to summarize it.

Please don't lol. jk. I can see Allen was really into Carl Jung's psychology and archetype work. Very Cancer stuff (as Allen pointed out himself). Incidentally enough, Jordan Peterson, a pop psyche Jung of sorts, is a Taurus Sun.

I did a summary of the article here: https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2593

[Veronica]

Sorry I cant edit well on this phone.


"Tendency toward LEFT, but EVER SO REACTIONARY THEMSELVES.
Looks contradictory. How is one left leaning and reactionary at the same time?
Scorpios tend to be ideologically left-leaning but, as they age (like Cancer and Pisces, or Jung's Feeling type in general) they tend to attach more and more to the past. I don't know many that become outright conservative, but they do start attaching more to the past.

I don't know that this what he meant, though. I think it more likely (based on reading his syntax) he simply meant that the views they promulgate and how they actually are do not particularly match. I don't know what Scorpios he was considering but, for example, he had four U.S. presidents, Winston Churchill, Frederick Engels, Pope John XXIII, Martin Luther, Francisco Franco (oh, there's a great one!), radical Thomas Mooney, Walt Disney... these are among the charts he would have had in the 1950s and early '60s. Perhaps you can discover for us what he meant by studying them?"

[Veronica]

To me it feels like this.....
Scorpios dont attach more to the past.
That seems like making brand new connections.
The connections were allready attached. Because Scorpio knows everything is allready connected.
As a scorpio ages it strengthens bonds that seemingly are from the past, yet because the bonds a scorpio chooses to strengthen are the primal source bonds of the Promethian nature, they are the bonds that will be able to move past the physical contraindications and constraints of life and guide and carry like a current the person through the stage of entropy.
It is an attempt, these strenghtening of bonds, to be physically able to endure what the aged scorpio now knows as its existence. Its the little things that mean so much.
Tendency.....like a sinew connecting bone and tissue.
Reactionary- the stimulation of life is overwhelming. Very sensitive to external. Overtime conditioned behaviors are hardwired into all facets of memory especially physical muscle memory.

Being left....in a world that is mostly right is like swimming against the current.
The views a scorpio promulgate do not match who they are, because a scorpio knows thier are more then one view and they are all right but that you cant be a wave and a particle at the same time, in order to be....you must settle on one or the other.....
And for the sake of arguement a scorpio can always play the devils advocate. That how life goes on.
Those men listed pushed long and hard and rocked the world because someone had to.

[Veronica]

. Not squeamish, but very PHALLIC-sensitive.
What does it exactly mean to be phallic sensitive?
The psyche is sensitized (responsive to) phallic themes, symbols, imagery. In most cases this means phallic archetypes drive the psyche, though it could just as well (rarely, I think) mean that it's an "issue" for them and they're suppressive of it. Anyway, the main thing is that the psyche is responsive to phallic archetypes.

it was very curious to me why these two phrases were linked with a comma and not a period. if there was a period it would be clear that they are two separate components of the psyche, but they are linked with a comma, meaning that the one follows and is built upon by the first.

So, as a whole lotta scorpio i can completely say i am not squeamish by things that I see and experience in the world. my stomach doesn't turn at violence, body fluids, bugs and creepy things. to squeam is to be like EWE, yuck, Im not touching that......this is unpleasant. different from squirming though, but not by much and I think that is where the comma comes in. Phallic things make me squirm. like a worm on pavement. I am a very squirmy person. the thing though that I have always struggled to express correctly to others ( Eric and Craig and my Dad and Brothers, who have all chastised me for being squirmy and leading Men on) is that I feel that everything manifest in this world is the result of Union, Union with the unmanifest femine Womb and the protruding phallus. Every single thing that I can see and touch and expierence I can see as a phallic symbol of that Cosmic Union, and all that I dont see and feel as the Cosmic womb. A blade of grass, a dinner plate, a butterfly is the result of sex and union and is symbol of the potency of the life giving Sun, all things manifest are phallic symbols or archetypes

why are those those phrases conjoined in my experience would have to be the fact that as the wind blows across my skin and the sun warms my face I feel that potency of life. as I clean up the road kill and scrub the toliet I feel the potency of life. its all the same thing playing with my senses to make me squirm and be alive.

I dont know how my experience would differ from a man with my placements, but I have often reflected on the Freuds Penis envy theory and felt that if I was a man in this world I would have been able to accomplish much much more. But phallic symbols are hard and they hurt. men think I dont understand how much it actually can hurt to be a man and all that, but I do in my own way and I sympathize and count my lucky stars that I am a woman and I dont have that sort of pain below that drives them sometimes in directions that lead to more hardship and suffering.

I have heard a millions time
"how lucky you are, what does it feel like to be able to have any man give you what ever you want"
I laugh and cry at the same time for not being understood.

Scorpios know that nothing is free, everything has a cost, and its better to be able to generate what you need on your own then take something you cannot or will not pay for later. If we do anything it is because we are willing to pay the hard price .