I've substantially rewritten my interpretation of natal Jupiter-Pluto aspects, with examples known to me taking me into a significantly different route than I took in the 1970s when last I visited the aspect in detail.
I'm especially interested in feedback from Lance and Arena, who have very strong examples of this aspect, and of course from anyone else. Below, after the Principle, is a short summary of the meaning, followed by a more detailed breakdown. (The summary and the numbered lines say the same thing, just with different amounts of detail.)
JUPITER-PLUTO PRINCIPLE: Outlier ambition, singular, extraordinary achievement or fall
Thrives being controversial within their (social or political) circles. Strong desire to contribute. Feels unbound by precedent. Unapologetic genuineness + commitment to community (family, group, tribe); social outlier but not aloof. Controversial, appears rebellious against contemporary structures (social, intellectual, political). May hunger to "be something," especially seen, accepted, affirmed by others. Self-improvement indifferent to the rules. Success and prosperity fluctuate (roller-coaster), may not last; may overestimate own importance or standing. (Updated 3/9/19)
Thrives being controversial within their (social or political) circles.
Strong desire to contribute from their distinctive talents or abilities.
Feels unbound by precedent.
Joins unapologetic genuineness with commitment to community (= family, group, tribe, etc.); distinctive presence, rarely lost or submerged in a group (social outlier but not aloof or removed). "Of, but not part of..."
Can appear rebellious against contemporary social, intellectual, and political structures (controversial), but it's usually unmasked authenticity more than rebellion.
Self-improvement indifferent to other people's rules.
Many have a hunger to "be something," especially to be noticed, accepted, and affirmed by others for what they (distinctly? exclusively?) are.
Success and prosperity fluctuate like a roller-coaster.
Unusual number of heads of state and other eminent politicians. (May overestimate their own importance or standing.) Often eminence or other success has not lasted once the ultimate position was secured (e.g., Napoleon, Richard Nixon, Andrew Johnson, Clifford Irving, Alexander Dubcek, Chris Christie), though sometimes it has long endured (e.g., Konrad Adenauer, Margaret Thatcher, Vladimir Putin, Orrin Hatch, numerous popes).
Unusual number of notorious killers (Angelo Buono, Ian Brady, James Degorsky, Ted Bundy, Stephen Paddock, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite), perhaps reflective of a larger notoriety tendency (to the above political falls, add Mata Hari).
NOTE: It's a mistake to interpret Jupiter-Pluto in terms of power-motives or leadership traits as is commonly done. They do have a strong desire to contribute within their communities (which may also be linked to a strong need for acceptance or affirmation from the group of their distinctive, sometimes quirky nature). They also see themselves as exceptional in key respects. But the power motive itself is not the driver unless provided by other chart factors (and, if attained, often leads to a great fall).
I have this aspect, though not pure as my Jupiter is also conjunct my moon and Neptune, and is aspected by my sun. my sun and my pluto are angular as well.
I have been in a very Pluto angular way as of late. My solar return has my pluto conjunct venus and Saturn, which was conjunct my natal venus, (which aspects Saturn and Uranus) My natal Venus is also the location of as strong midpoint location for my sun/moon/Neptune/Jupiter, as well as Mars and Mercury) .my solar return has Jupiter close to an angle as well.
I also have a current lunar return right now with a strong Pluto aspect.
Its been interesting and I have been undergoing a lot of deep psychological processes that are very hard to express.
I will say that I logged in today and read this, and cried. I will try to express why, and how even though I don’t have a tight aspect of this, nor a unique human experience, I do think I can try to verify and explain some of the deeper psychological effects this aspect has provided me with over the course of my life.
Pluto is soul. The essence of everything and nothing. When Pluto aspects the effects are always deep. It has always been difficult for me to separate all the deep action I have going on and say for sure, this is the moon, this is the Neptune this is the Jupiter. Because for me its all. Jim here has done justice to separating out for me the specifics of my Pluto Jupiter.
Its raw and real and true. What he lays out here is picture perfect of those parts of me that are colored by this aspect. When I said I cried when I read this, it was not because of pain of the harshness or the starkness, but because I felt understood.
I struggle to understand myself, and why I am incarnate and here and what is my purpose. I feel in my bones I know what it is, but that the world does not want that from me. That it sees and wants an illusion, a dream, a perfection, and a human being is very disappointing compared to that ideal. My purpose is to love. I think you all already know that. This aspect brings to light why my soul urge is to Love, purely with no limitations or restraints.
JUPITER-PLUTO
PRINCIPLE: Outlier ambition, singular, extraordinary achievement or fall
Thrives being controversial within their (social or political) circles. Strong desire to contribute. Feels unbound by precedent. Unapologetic genuineness + commitment to community (family, group, tribe); social outlier but not aloof. Controversial, appears rebellious against contemporary structures (social, intellectual, political). May hunger to "be something," especially seen, accepted, affirmed by others. Self-improvement indifferent to the rules. Success and prosperity fluctuate (roller-coaster), may not last; may overestimate own importance or standing. (Updated 3/9/19)
1. Thrives being controversial within their (social or political) circles.
I do thrive when I feel safe to be myself. It is a rare place that I feel safe to be myself. But when I feel safe, I blossom like a rose.
2. Strong desire to contribute from their distinctive talents or abilities.
It not just strong, its over powering and all consuming, when I feel my true talents and abilities are serving the highest good.
3. Feels unbound by precedent.
Completely. I don’t care what has happened before. Each moment is anew possibility and anything can change. No matter what. The is always an exception and always room for growth. Do not shackle me with limitations for I will break them and give them right back.
4. Joins unapologetic genuineness with commitment to community (= family, group, tribe, etc.); distinctive presence, rarely lost or submerged in a group (social outlier but not aloof or removed). "Of, but not part of..."
This one is hard on me. It is true. But, it feels like the community does not see the real me, its like I am a mirage. I don’t commit easily. I have an air about me that says in a way, I am here and I like what you are doing and I want to help, but yet I have to do it my own way, and I will do it my own way, and I know I don’t qite fit in, but Im here and im trying to help.
5. Can appear rebellious against contemporary social, intellectual, and political structures (controversial), but it's usually unmasked authenticity more than rebellion.
That is the superficial illusion that people see, that I am a rebel. Trying to burn down society. Its my desire to be able to be free to be me and not burned at the stake for it. I see room for growth in what many consider stable things like institutions and structures and they see it as me wanting to toss the whole thing aside and start over, for anarchy and chaos. Its just me wanting to be able to live as I see best for me.
6. Self-improvement indifferent to other people's rules.
Deep motives for self improvement. I want to be free and I will culturally appropriate any means or tools I can to liberate myself from what holds me down. My tool box of life skills comes from eating at the earths buffet of all life, and no one doctrine holds all the tools.
7. Many have a hunger to "be something," especially to be noticed, accepted, and affirmed by others for what they (distinctly? exclusively?) are.
Because as pluto is all or nothing, I feel like nothing most of the time. That’s the moon Neptune. I feel like a dream, like I am not real. That I am a fantasy in the minds of those who “know” me, for they don’t seem to really see of know me at all, even my mother and father and siblings. Everyone makes it known that they think I should be rich and famous at something, the leader of the world, or head of a institution and Im not. Im nothing, this life feels lucid and surreal and like a dream to me, myself, and I hunger more then anything for something, real. I have felt brief moments of ebing noticed, accepted, and affirmed, but they are fleeting.
8. Success and prosperity fluctuate like a roller-coaster.
Again, the all or nothin. I don’t care about the riches of the world and that is how success is measured. I casre about the feeling in my heart, and the happiness I cdan find there. But life beats that our of you and is hard to maintain as things want to rob you.
9. Unusual number of heads of state and other eminent politicians. (May overestimate their own importance or standing.) Often eminence or other success has not lasted once the ultimate position was secured (e.g., Napoleon, Richard Nixon, Andrew Johnson, Clifford Irving, Alexander Dubcek, Chris Christie), though sometimes it has long endured (e.g., Konrad Adenauer, Margaret Thatcher, Vladimir Putin, Orrin Hatch, numerous popes).
My careers have all been very powerful positions in my field which I was in charge. I loved the jobs at first. But they did not satisfy my soul work so I left. I wanted to make big changes but it seemed like the status quo didn’t want to go, and the work turned to a daily grind of conformity, sucking it up, and kiss in butt just for money.
10. Unusual number of notorious killers (Angelo Buono, Ian Brady, James Degorsky, Ted Bundy, Stephen Paddock, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite), perhaps reflective of a larger notoriety tendency (to the above political falls, add Mata Hari).
Im a killer in my own way. Or at least the people I have loved and befriended will tell you that I broke there heart in my own way by my tendency to cut them out of my life when they felt a vital connection, that I felt was detrimental to my over sensitive well being.
NOTE: It's a mistake to interpret Jupiter-Pluto in terms of power-motives or leadership traits as is commonly done.
Agree. That is not what is going on. Its primal and pure and of the nature of the soul itself, which is not about power, it is power. Having that power flow naturally and manifest in a way that utilizes the other gifts of the chart/person/environment
They do have a strong desire to contribute within their communities (which may also be linked to a strong need for acceptance or affirmation from the group of their distinctive, sometimes quirky nature).
For me I think this ties in with my desire to feel real, human, like others…..and not an illusion, dream, fantasy or ideal.
They also see themselves as exceptional in key respects.
With my angular sun tying in I will say most definitely true for me. I have trouble with the words accept and except. Pluto is exceptional, all or nothing. The key respect would be were other talents and gifts of the natal chart and environment play out. My placement of Jupiter in scorpio in the 6th house….with all the other stuff does make me feel very exceptional in the realm of the soul and spiritual and unseen and psychic things that I try to use to help other people see what I can see in them.
But the power motive itself is not the driver unless provided by other chart factors (and, if attained, often leads to a great fall).
With great power comes great responsibility and if not tempered by other aspects will lead to the greatest of all falls. False pride.
Pluto Jupiter gives credit where credit is due.
It makes me think of Buzz Lightyear
To infinity and beyond.
This last statement Jim….you threw me a whole skelton, not just a bone.
So I will just say it outloud. The greatest of all falls is false pride or the other side of that coin. I struggle with the other side of that coin sometimes. The despair and lonelyiness, the feeling of not fitting in, or not wanting what this physical world has to offer, no one of its riches shine and delight like they seem to for others.
Jupiter pluto is what helps keep me alive, keeps me fighting and pushing past my desire to give up this world and stop all the pain and suffering that I feel and see all around me. Jupiter is the beautiful planet that makes things seem regal and valuable and tied in with Pluto can bring deep feelings of a much higher power then any gold to be found in the hills.
So many times in my life have I heard the words, you could be anything, your so beautiful, your so smart, your so talented, you are a mans dream come true, you are the best employee, why don’t you be a doctor or a lawyer or a poltitican or a rock star, you could be the biggest thing in the world……the three men I had relationships with all in there own way told me I was too good for them, asking straight out, what do you see in me, you can have any one you want. My dad saying things like, if you only tried you could do anything, have it all…my friends always saying….you have so much potential.
Im a dream to them. Im an ideal of something that they see in me and want me to be, and all I ever really wanted to be was my mother. I wanted a husband and a family and a simple little life growing flowers and cooking food and being with people who like me for the crazy wild thing that I was. I didn’t want a career, or any of the “gidfts” modern civization had to give me. I wanted to love and be loved and that was all.
Jupiter is our sence of the Godhead in many respects. The most all loving blessing that you can imagine, in this world. But my mind told me that there was more then what this world had. My heart told me that this world was unbalanced and not seeing the real way God is.
Pluto is the soul. And God comes from the soul.
All those traits you listed have to do with the sacred marriage of the masculine world and the feminine, for Pluto is Feminine. It’s the Goddess in all her many forms.
All those times when I wanted to be apart of a group, I would try and then I would see how they did not act truly in balance with the masculine and feminine forces……denying and down right abusing the feminine side….so id try to bring balance, and when it wouldn’t work. Id walk away.
I don’t kill m yself, which is the opposite side of false pride, because I know that I came from a place of love and I am loved and I will get back to that when She wants me and until that moment I have no right but to do my will and trod on, to get up and wipe my tears and the meanness of the world and the ununderstanding and judging and projections of a false image onto me and know that as my Soul its source, and decendend down into incarnation and passed through each of the planetary spheres I was given gifts to help me bear this life that for some reason The Soul of All wants to have experienced. As hard and lonely and confusing as it may be at times, I know that God is always with me and a source to draw from and a place of respite.
My aspects in my chart say a lot of things about murder and suicide and yucky stuff like that, and maybe I am to die some tragic way so everyone can say, what a waste of life she could have been so much more, but she didn’t try. And they will never know how much I tried and struggled everyday to be apart, and not a part, and how much I love this world really and all people and want them to feel the love of God in there heart like I do and to long for a simple life with someone to hole my hand. And its sad that Im just a dream and people cant touch dreams.
People don’t want to hear about love and loving God and being a wife and mother and how that union with another is the most important thing a human can be. That’s my chart and my stuff and everyone else has there own chart and stuff I understand, but we all come from the same source and we all have those planets and aspects to different degrees.
I will have my extraordinary achievement. I lived.
I didn’t kill myself all those times I wanted to.
And everyone will think my life is a failure and I could have been so much more.
But I didn’t want much.
Just love.
And I know Love
I have it in my heart, so everyone can think what ever they need to think about me, and Im ok being a failure to them. Because Im right with God, and I wont kill myself because I know that the things in this world aren’t real.
Like you said if its funny, its real.
If its not funny its not real.
Im funny.
Im freaking hilarious.
I think so anyways. And thats all that matters.
