Growing Into Your Chart

[sotonye]

Most of the symbolism my chart expresses hasn't come naturally to me for the most part, not when I was younger, but as I've grown it seems that what had been hidden to me has really come to the fore. For example, I was a real trouble maker when I was little, a real Aries. Once I had snuck out of school when I was in first grade because I didn't really understand rules, in second grade I would be cruel to the other children, and in middle school I had gotten suspended every year for getting into fights with everyone. I was very insensitive then, a wicked boy. And suddenly, on entering high school, and when puberty hit, I had become much different. After the first two years had come and gone without incident I didn't know what to make of myself anymore, that I was on good terms with everyone I knew, this was all new to me. I wasn't exactly the same person, I was much softer, more affable, less impulsive and indelicate. It seemed like before then I did not know how to have a social self, it seemed like my Moon was not operative and that I only lived through my Sun, I didn't try to modify my expression to correspond with contexts or to the needs of other people. And now, and after learning all of that almost spontaneously, I'm experiencing other aspects of my chart, also lunar in nature. In high school I did not believe I would ever succeed in love, and that's all I'm really good at now, and my 17 year old self would not recognize me anymore! Are charts evolving things? Or am I just a late bloomer? Considering the Moon is our outer mask im inclined to say that that might take a few decades of life to properly develop, but at the same time it seems that Moon sign characteristics can be seen even in small children!

[Jim Eshelman]

The behavior you describe, while true not "the whole of you" (and excluding several important sides) is, nonetheless, expressive of an enormous amount of your chart: Aries Sun, the very close angularity of Pluto (two ways, WP and Dsc, Mercury-Pluto, Jupiter-Pluto, and broader picture of angularity of Pluto, Jupiter, Moon, Mars (not so visibly Mercury, but it's probably in the mix for any delinquency).

But you're right, there is a kind of "growing into one's chart" or, as I think it more rightly expressed, growing into oneself. Something I find a surprising number of people resistant to accepting (to me it seems nakedly self-evident) is that being fully and clearly oneself is one of the hardest things to do, and people need to learn how to do it. Being oneself may be the most natural thing in the world until we (immediately) start encountering the world. In general, parents, social structures, etc. etc. deflect us from listening, first and foremost, to what naturally arises from within us. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls, whether their actual natures match those stereotypes or not (and all sorts of other social messages). At some point in our maturity we have to shake these swaddlings off, no matter how useful they were before, and often we have to learn how to be ourselves. Puberty is one point where this breaks lose with a little more power, and the primary developmental step of adolescence is to distinguish ourselves into the kind of adult we're going to be through various "adult internship & practice round" social structures.

I might add that angular Moon types (and, even more, angular Moon-Jupiter) are even more likely to stay inside this provided construct of parental or social role-definitions, because (1) from the crib, angular Moons have an instinct for pleasing and conforming to what the caregivers need and forming behavior in response to that and (2) Jupiter just naturally follows social roles offered. By not being themselves in exchange for enacting roles and expectations, these planets are being very much expressed!

I think for better understanding, think of this outside of astrology, just in terms of psychology. Not as "growing into your chart, but as "growing into yourself." Two or three things become quickly evident. One is the point I mentioned, that we all get quickly deflected from being ourselves freely (and, in fact, we aren't experientially familiar with what that would look like). Two, our sense of the world and of ourselves is vastly simpler and only gains complexity with times, so the simpler the statement about an astrological factor, the more likely it will be true.

Third, our complexity and fullness come from interaction with life. Psychologically, this is well established and probably obvious: We are better able to integrate a full sense of who we are as we are exposed to more and more circumstances and witness ourselves responding to different things. Astrologically, I think there is a similar principle: I settle increasingly into an idea that we are not so much born with specific traits as born sensitized to different symbols and circumstances. In this view, the chart shows what we respond to, what rivets our souls, what kinds of experiences (small or vast) fixate our attention and draw from us a response or adaptation. These chain-link together as we add new responses to earlier ones and build the increasingly complex history that is ourselves.

[sotonye]

The behavior you describe, while true not "the whole of you" (and excluding several important sides) is, nonetheless, expressive of an enormous amount of your chart: Aries Sun, the very close angularity of Pluto (two ways, WP and Dsc, Mercury-Pluto, Jupiter-Pluto, and broader picture of angularity of Pluto, Jupiter, Moon, Mars (not so visibly Mercury, but it's probably in the mix for any delinquency).

Hello Mr. E, I definitely knew that my Aries Sun had a lot to do with my misbehavior, but I really wouldn't have guessed that Pluto had any significance in the matter, but broadly speaking, I suppose antisociality just means a disregard of the rules of the game, and Pluto is not the most social planet in the world. The reason why this didn't strike me as a behavioral factor at first is because of the gentleness Garth Allen describes in Plutonian souls, but if I remember correctly angular Pluto is frequent for murderers, and murder is probably the most antisocial thing anyone could do. Also this is sort of blowing my mind how many wild things I've got going on in my map

there is a kind of "growing into one's chart" or, as I think it more rightly expressed, growing into oneself. Something I find a surprising number of people resistant to accepting (to me it seems nakedly self-evident) is that being fully and clearly oneself is one of the hardest things to do, and people need to learn how to do it. Being oneself may be the most natural thing in the world until we (immediately) start encountering the world. In general, parents, social structures, etc. etc. deflect us from listening, first and foremost, to what naturally arises from within us. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls, whether their actual natures match those stereotypes or not (and all sorts of other social messages). At some point in our maturity we have to shake these swaddlings off, no matter how useful they were before, and often we have to learn how to be ourselves. Puberty is one point where this breaks lose with a little more power, and the primary developmental step of adolescence is to distinguish ourselves into the kind of adult we're going to be through various "adult internship & practice round" social structures.

Very well put

I might add that angular Moon types (and, even more, angular Moon-Jupiter) are even more likely to stay inside this provided construct of parental or social role-definitions, because (1) from the crib, angular Moons have an instinct for pleasing and conforming to what the caregivers need and forming behavior in response to that and (2) Jupiter just naturally follows social roles offered. By not being themselves in exchange for enacting roles and expectations, these planets are being very much expressed!

I definitely have to agree with this, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Moon-Jupiter individuals dissemble, I think it's more so that they're just non-imposing. I think they have a self, one pulled in Jupiter themed directions (law, medicine, politics), but don't bludgeon the world with it like Mars types except in cases where Jupiter is in bad working order. I have been watching interviews of Moon-Jupiter individuals and the first thing I noticed was the degree of participation they allowed while talking, they kind of give room for others to be themselves and aren't very disruptive

Third, our complexity and fullness come from interaction with life. Psychologically, this is well established and probably obvious: We are better able to integrate a full sense of who we are as we are exposed to more and more circumstances and witness ourselves responding to different things. Astrologically, I think there is a similar principle: I settle increasingly into an idea that we are not so much born with specific traits as born sensitized to different symbols and circumstances. In this view, the chart shows what we respond to, what rivets our souls, what kinds of experiences (small or vast) fixate our attention and draw from us a response or adaptation. These chain-link together as we add new responses to earlier ones and build the increasingly complex history that is ourselves.

This is an extremely novel way of looking at our charts and I did not know you felt this way, I think this should be sidereal canon, I mean I'm sure a lot of us have a more restrictive view and see charts as pointing toward something innate, this view is much more helpful. Also thank you Mr. E for going over this with me

[Jim Eshelman]

...I suppose antisociality just means a disregard of the rules of the game...

Exactly. "Antisocial"is originally a psychology and sociology term meaning roughly "those who don't settle into society's rules," and was (for example) the diagnostic label for juvenile delinquents. It's what Scale 4 (the so-called Antisocial Scale) of the MMPI measures. Look up "antisocial" on dictionary.com for a range of related, roughly synonymous meanings of the word today, the third of which is "opposed or detrimental to social order or the principles on which society is constituted." These are all part of the Pluto expression,

The root idea is indeed innocent. Working it out in practice is messier and noisier, especially in a restrictive environment. The Pluto in us needs to act out and break things every now and then just to make sure we haven't sunk into taking our lead entirely from other people. I remember a wonderful line from a TV show about 30 years ago - it was the punchline of one episode of Northern Exposure - where a character said something like, "Every now and then a good man has to do a bad thing just to remain sane." I think no truer words were ever written.

I definitely have to agree with this, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Moon-Jupiter individuals dissemble, I think it's more so that they're just non-imposing.

Sitting over here inside my horoscope's perspective, with an Aquarius Moon and no significant Jupiter outside of the irreverent reverence of Mars in Sagittarius, I can't say I've ever been able ti distinguish social graciousness from {bs}. However (also from the Aquarius Moon), that's not a judgment against {bs}. {bs} is useful and (Saturn fecal keywords aside) is the great social emollient of Jupiter.

I think (to put it more bluntly than usual for the sake of emphasis) that we're all lying most of the time, where ":lie" means anything other than the complete and unvarnished truth presented in the way it spontaneously feels and arises in the instant without distortion. But we all know we're all lying and we give each other the room to do it as a form of social ritual., Jupiter in us loves the ritual aspect and sees its many advantages; Pluto in us barely tolerates it.

BTW, the trick for having seemingly superhuman powers of perception is to drop out of the social game (I guess that's more Bene Gesserit than Jedi). We have a widespread social game of pretending we all get to hide certain things from each other when, in fact, nobody is hiding much of anything - we all just politely avert our gaze in a silent agreement, "I will pretend I don't know this thing about you if you pretend you don't know it about me," like people not talking about bathroom matters that everybody necessarily attends to in common every day,

The way to see completely through those "invisibilities" is to silently consent to everybody else seeing you exactly as you are without filters. Do that and the reciprocal "spell of invisibility" is broken.

[sotonye]

Currently in the ER for appendicitis Mr. E, I don't know why the universe wants me to suffer. But I'm going to respond to this when I get better

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Ouch. Sorry you have appendicitis. Hope they got it before it ruptured. You'll be in my thoughts today.

[Danica]

...I suppose antisociality just means a disregard of the rules of the game...

Exactly. "Antisocial" is originally a psychology and sociology term meaning roughly "those who don't settle into society's rules," and was (for example) the diagnostic label for juvenile delinquents. It's what Scale 4 (the so-called Antisocial Scale) of the MMPI measures. Look up "antisocial" on dictionary.com for a range of related, roughly synonymous meanings of the word today, the third of which is "opposed or detrimental to social order or the principles on which society is constituted." These are all part of the Pluto expression,

The root idea is indeed innocent. Working it out in practice is messier and noisier, especially in a restrictive environment. The Pluto in us needs to act out and break things every now and then just to make sure we haven't sunk into taking our lead entirely from other people. I remember a wonderful line from a TV show about 30 years ago - it was the punchline of one episode of Northern Exposure - where a character said something like, "Every now and then a good man has to do a bad thing just to remain sane." I think no truer words were ever written.

I definitely have to agree with this, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Moon-Jupiter individuals dissemble, I think it's more so that they're just non-imposing.

Sitting over here inside my horoscope's perspective, with an Aquarius Moon and no significant Jupiter outside of the irreverent reverence of Mars in Sagittarius, I can't say I've ever been able ti distinguish social graciousness from {bs}. However (also from the Aquarius Moon), that's not a judgment against {bs}. {bs} is useful and (Saturn fecal keywords aside) is the great social emollient of Jupiter.

I think (to put it more bluntly than usual for the sake of emphasis) that we're all lying most of the time, where ":lie" means anything other than the complete and unvarnished truth presented in the way it spontaneously feels and arises in the instant without distortion. But we all know we're all lying and we give each other the room to do it as a form of social ritual., Jupiter in us loves the ritual aspect and sees its many advantages; Pluto in us barely tolerates it.

BTW, the trick for having seemingly superhuman powers of perception is to drop out of the social game (I guess that's more Bene Gesserit than Jedi). We have a widespread social game of pretending we all get to hide certain things from each other when, in fact, nobody is hiding much of anything - we all just politely avert our gaze in a silent agreement, "I will pretend I don't know this thing about you if you pretend you don't know it about me," like people not talking about bathroom matters that everybody necessarily attends to in common every day,

The way to see completely through those "invisibilities" is to silently consent to everybody else seeing you exactly as you are without filters. Do that and the reciprocal "spell of invisibility" is broken.

Thank you, and LOLOLOL
and truly Thank you
for putting this into words

This is and has always been my perspective on 'social graciousness' (I most often address it as: the superficiality and formality of 'social niceties'), with all the strangeness, in my case, of Ju-Ve tone of the Uranian of it, and Su-Sa of the Plutonian

[sotonye]

Ouch. Sorry you have appendicitis. Hope they got it before it ruptured. You'll be in my thoughts today.

It turned out that what the surgeons thought was appendicitis in an ultrasound turned out to be inflamed lymph nodes around the appendix in a CT scan, they sent me home yesterday morning at 7am. A very strange and almost dreamlike experience. I'm glad everything worked out somehow and I appreciate your consideration Jupiter

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Wow. Hope they figured out what caused it so you don't have it again. Scary. Glad you didn't have to have an operation, and are home.

[sotonye]

Wow. Hope they figured out what caused it so you don't have it again. Scary. Glad you didn't have to have an operation, and are home.

Yes me too and thank you