M** Natal Chart Reading

[By Jove]

by By Jove on Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:38 pm
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The other day I asked M** if she would like me to read her natal chart. (I got her exact time of birth.) She said yes and, since it's her birthday today, why not? I'll post my reading at Solunars first so it may be inspected for any errors. Suggestions are more than welcome.

10 December, 1991
12:06AM
Kalamazoo, MI

Angular (Foreground) Planets: Represents planets that play heavy roles in important areas of your life.
Jupiter on the ASC in Leo. The Ascendent represents how you interact with other people. It represents how you experience being yourself when you do things and the first impressions you give to other people. Jupiter on the ascendant means you generally approach people in a fair and congenial way. I can see where your emphasis on morals and virtue ethics comes in, especially with Jupiter in Leo. You also tend to rather generous and tolerant of people you meet. You also try really hard to "sell yourself" as someone kept together, confidant, and self-assured when that may not actually be the case.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1997&p=71#p78

Mercury on the IC in Scorpio. The Imum Coeli or Lower Heaven represents the most private, personal areas of a horoscope, and usually the parts of you that tend to be hidden from other people. It also concerns the home, family, and other personal concerns. Mercury in the IC points to someone who is rather observant, alert, and someone who often thinks tactically. But it also points to neurosis and frequent worrying. So you seem to be someone who is rather resourceful and clever with tools that you have a very close personal connection to. And in family affairs you act as a mediator or a diplomat. All this tactical way of doing things, a keen interest in technique, is amplified in Scorpio.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1997&p=71#p75

Mars on the IC in Scorpio. Mars is in its own ruling sign, Scorpio, amplifying it. On the IC it points to someone who is actually rather competitive and aggressive. It also points to a high sex drive, someone who "likes it rough" (like BDSM), but immense jealousy to partners. And you also have very good mechanical skills. Your skilled work with the camera points that out. You also have a very strong need to get out there and fight for your beliefs, so if you feel trapped in the domestic realm you will want to rebel against it and cut the red tape as it were. Mars, as always, points to strong will and resilience to life's traumas. And, since Mars is on the IC, many of these qualities will be hidden from most people. Most people will see the fair and just Jupiter on the ASC, but not the tempest of passions inside.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1997&p=71#p77

Sun on the IC in Scorpio. Sun on the IC means you have a rather warm, generous personality, and a desire to share that inner light with the rest of the world. On with Sun on the IC, most of that light, is shared only with close friends and family. There is a strong need to find a special purpose or destiny in your life, and so you spend most of your time seeking it. The Sun tends to fit with traditional power structures or civic institutions. In your case, it seems more to fitting with traditional moral structures (virtue ethics as practiced by the Greeks of antiquity).

Planet Aspects: The angles planets have with each other. Their interrelation tells overall traits of your personality.
Sun conjunct Mercury. Again your natal chart points to cleverness and resourcefulness. You are very self-expressive, like gesturing with your hands a lot when you talk. There is a strong need to affirm yourself by rationalizing ideas you hold or decisions you make. And you invest a huge deal of your identity with ideas and beliefs you hold. To you, you're philosophy, morals, and reasons for believing in them, are very important ways of telling you who you are and where you belong in the world.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29#p123

Moon conjunct Saturn. You are a very hard-working person who drives yourself to complete tasks you set out. You are also rather guarded and reserved with your emotions. Like with your Mercury, Mars, and Sun in the IC, there is a theme where you guard and conceal a lot of what you think and feel. When given a bad aspect (or when Moon and Saturn are conjunct in Capricorn like in your case) there will be a lot of despondency, anxiety, and pessimism. There is also, in theory at least, a theme of you controlling people in a passive-aggressive way while playing the role of a "helper". I personally don't see this theme in you though. But I do see this behavior a lot in charities, caring services, liberal activist groups, and social justice circles.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29#p135

Moon square Venus. You are generally gracious, affectionate, and sensual. You tend to be polite with people, even when you are very angry at a person or dislike them. On the more esoteric side, there is a strong expression of the "feminine principle". I do definitely pick up a strong feminine vibe or "feminine principle" from you.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29#p132

Venus square Saturn. You yearn for a deep connection with people but you are very cautious with people when it comes to relationships. In relationships you have a strong tendency to devote yourself to your partner like being their muse or caretaker. If Venus square Saturn is taken to its worst, it will leave you unable to open up to someone or love someone in a mature, adult way.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30#p149

Sun trine Jupiter. You are warm, amiable, and easy to get along with. You also have a strong need for friends and family to approve you. You also have a strong inclination to philosophy and religion, basically tackling the biggest questions of life. And you do study those subjects deeply. This is similar to Jupiter being foreground. In your overall natal chart, I detect a conflict between the benevolent planets of Venus and Jupiter (warmth, generosity, love, trust) and the malicious planets Mars and Saturn (aggression, passions, distrust, loneliness). People easily see the Venus and Jupiter while Mars and Saturn are more hidden.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29#p126

Mercury trine Jupiter. You are often quiet and reserved. When you do speak, you speak in a refined, cultured way, or at least you speak in a way that is gracious and considerate of other people.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30#p142

Mars trine Jupiter. You are very competitive. You want to be seen as the very best, to prove your worth in front of everyone else.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30#p153

Zodiac Signs: Not as important as the planets. Sun, Moon, and Mars in zodiac signs do give a general assessment of your personality but no so much with details. A zodiac sign's traits won't be so pronounced in you unless you have a stellium of planets in a sign. In your natal chart, the signs Scorpio and Capricorn are most pronounced.

Sun and Mars in Scorpio. Modern astrologers (those who use the tropical zodiac) describe Scorpio as being mysterious and profound, passionate but secretive. Generally this reading is wrong as it does not reflect how Scorpio was treated by astrologers. Astrologers in Egypt associated Scorpio with the blood red planet Mars, its ruler, and Antares, a red giant located at the heart of Scorpio. Manilius describes Scorpio as a courageous sign that seeks active service. He especially mentions the rapacious Scorpio engaging in frequent battles with his fellow man, even making a spectacle of death in the gladiator arena, and "plowing the fields"; a veiled reference to promiscuity. Valens links Scorpio and the planet Mars with crime and bloodshed, describing the sign as thieving and murderous. Rhetorius describes the Scorpio as going through a turbulent life of gains and losses, acquiring a bad reputation along the way.

Thankfully, modern Sidereal astrologers are more kind to Scorpios. The modern interpretation of Scorpio describes a courageous, passionate person who doggedly fights for various causes or ardently pursues a life passion. The Scorpio is generally a bold and dynamic Promethean figure, loving to rock the boat and do new things to get attention or test other people's mettle. The Scorpio generally has a brilliant mind but difficulty conforming to rules and with little interest in abstract theories and formal doctrines. Instead, his knowledge is practical or idiographic, paying great attention to specific cases rather than concerning himself with broad, universal laws. The Scorpio has a keen analytical ability, able to see through other people to their real motives and weaknesses, but is rather guarded, taking great pains to appear strong and hide his weaknesses. At worst, the Scorpio is rash, venemous, violent, and self-destructive, but he is very strong, often able to survive the worst life throws at him.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7#p22
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=34#p224

Moon in Capricorn. Modern tropical astrologers usually describe Capricorn as very business oriented and obsessed towards work and social status. This is generally wrong, as while Capricorn is austere and aesthetic, ancient astrologers always mentioned toiling in relation to farmland and Capricorn's association with winter. This keeps in line with Capricorn's traditional rulers, Saturn and Mars. Manilius takes great pain to associate Capricorn with smelting out the minerals of the earth and with maintaining the Vestal flame. Valens describes Capricorn as hunch-backed, toiling in the fields, and frequenting many hardships. However, Valens does give credit to Capricorn for being wise and prudent with his resources.

Modern Sidereal astrologers, like ancient astrologers, associate Capricorn with the impish Pan, a creature merry and puckish yet wise and ancient. And the modern interpretation of Capricorn closely follows the Pan archetype. Generally, the Capricorn is austere in many ways; aloof, withdrawn, little spontaneity, and denies himself many of life's pleasures. He is a loner at heart, tending to shy away from team work. He tends to be pessimistic and doubtful. Usually the Capricorn suffers from a bad childhood, and frequently encounters many forms of misery, hardship, neglect, and humiliation. However, Saturn grants the Capricorn a large capacity to work hard and face life with resiliency. He is a tenacious worker, devoted to fulfilling his duties. He is equally devoted and faithful in love. The Capricorn is also a profound thinker, frequently drawn to the occult, bizarre, and macabre. Relating to Pan, Capricorn does have a strong sense of wit and humor, is prankish and young even in old age.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7#p24
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=34#p226

[By Jove]

by Jim Eshelman on Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:43 pm
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Though I don't have time to go carefully through what you wrote, let me at least summarize what I think are the most important factors in the chart. (There is more, of course, but these are the things that will tell the most about her.)

SIGNS: Sun (also Mars) in Scorpio. Moon in Capricorn.

ANGULARITY: Here are all the planets foreground. The Mercury emphasis is huge, especially since other chart factors wouldn't really suggest it. Jupiter is also extremely strong. Of the four things listed, Sun is weakest and should be emphasized less, but it's important to note its strength in contrast to Moon, which is extremely weak.

Mercury sq. MC (0°02')
Jupiter on Asc (0°18')
Mars on IC (3°11')
Sun on IC (7°02')

MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS:
Moon-Saturn conj. (1°48', in Capricorn) is probably the most important
-- Moon-Venus sq. (2°45'), Venus-Saturn sq. (0°57')
Mercury-Jupiter sq. (0°06', the two most angular planets)
The rising Jupiter is closely trined by both Uranus and Neptune, which colors it a bit

Also of note: close foreground Sun-Mercury conj.

SOME PASSING OBSERVATIONS ABOUT PARTICULAR PLANETS
-- Mars is a powerful theme, with both luminaries in Mars signs, Mars foreground and in Scorpio
-- Jupiter gives considerable dignity, almost royalty to her character - very tightly angular and in Leo
-- Moon is in pretty terrible shape - background, detriment, closely conjunct Saturn. Venus is nearly as bad - background, squared by the Moon-Saturn (but in Libra). This will be a very deep dynamic in her, the suppression of the two most feminine planets while a powerful masculine thread runs through her and yet the Moon-Venus square alone speaks for very power female energies - This is a tension, strong factors saying opposite things, and her life will have had some struggle with this already, and some sorting it out already.

[By Jove]

by jamescondor on Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:55 pm
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Man Bogdan

You and her represent an interesting combo.

[By Jove]

by By Jove on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:41 pm
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In what ways?

[By Jove]

by jamescondor on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:25 pm
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I cannot say really, besides my initial impression. My impression is bias. I have not seen you both in action, so I can only speculate. And synastry charts have not proven anything to me yet. So I won't even look at you two in a partner chart. Astrology is a tool or a medium pointing to the truth, but not the truth itself. Astrology in itself and its ways, concepts and such, cannot bring you love or friendship or success or fulfillment. No idea or practice can bring material things.
And my impression isn't based on your experience with her nor her experience with you. So only you can tell me how it plays out. You have to look within yourself and be honest and true.
Many times in my past I have mistaken desire for love. I want others to realize the distinction before falling victim to it. But maybe it is impossible not to first learn from falling victim to it.
True love is pure and beautiful and can unfold in many forms while still remaining true love. I love my brother different than my girlfriend. I love my mother different than my friends. I love my friend named Joe different than my other friend named Mary. You see-love has many forms. So any relationship will reveal itself. You and her will unfold. If it becomes a wedding you wed. If it becomes good friends, then good friends. If it becomes anything more or less, then that's what it is. Neither of you have to try or make it something. It will and already is what it is. This sounds paradoxical. But once the both of you live as love, then growth will be accepted and appreciated.
To make it simple-just learn. Learn the relationship. Learn from you, learn from her, learn from it.

by jamescondor on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:52 pm
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And now I will give you human non nonsense and make your astrological dreams come true. I wouldn't think you guys work astrologically. You too are odd to me. Scorpio and Sagittarius is odd for children and marriage. But it may work in friendship or friends with benefits or whatever. Yeah you can argue that she is like Aries in Mars and Sun energy. Or Leo like in Sun energy. Or Libra like is Saturn energy. I can mentally calculate all day long, all my life. Math and mental calculation has no real answer.
Then again what does that mean? Only you can define success. Only you can learn from it.
Okay back to practical solutions and 'how'.- what do you want right now? What do you want big picture or more longer term? Where do you want to be in 2-5 years. How will you get there?
What do you want with her? What might she want? What do you think she wants?

[By Jove]

by Jim Eshelman on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:57 am
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By Jove wrote:
James and Jim, what kind of energy is most present in my natal chart? It seems to be mostly masculine, as the Sun and Mars are so strong.

There are so many different kinds that it's a little hard to say. Certainly if you were looking only at the male-female balance, your angular Sun and Mars would tip it that way. But I wouldn't pick that as the main dimension.

First, a review of the strongest factors: By angularity, Mars on Eastpoint, Sun moderately angular at Descendant, and Pluto widely angular at Descendant. By sign, both luminaries and five other planets in Sagittarius. By luminary aspect, Sun sesqui-squares Jupiter, and Moon conjoins Saturn and Neptune.

I think the strongest themes are an ideological one, and, within this, specifically a moral (right vs. wrong, good vs. bad) vector. Even the Taurus Mars joins the ideological focus.

[By Jove]

Bogdan574 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:46 am
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jamesconder wrote:
Jim laid out.
I will just ask, why do you ask? We've never met obviously, but your picture isn't feminine. But it's only a picture. Did she or other woman say something to you so now you ask this question? Do you not feel like a typical masculine male?

There is no insecurity. Just wondering how I stack up with M** in that regard. She has a lot of masculine energy but a lot of suppressed feminine energy beneath it. Since we're both very male it seems like we're more like two blades clashing rather than a lock fitting into a key. Jim once said our planets in our charts keep missing each other, so it's like two blades never touching?

[By Jove]

by Jim Eshelman on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:51 am
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On the gender issue, she's very heavily weighted to the masculine, especially because the feminine elements are in difficult conditions.

I've been with ultra-Scorpio women over long periods of time. Just let them be as overwhelmingly masculine as they want. (If you don't like it, that's a different matter; but you need to let them be what they inherently are.)

[By Jove]

by jamescondor on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:26 pm
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FWIW, maybe a Sag Sun or Jupiter thing (or people thing), I prefer to I know with certainty the girl likes me enough before I waste too much time. Sounds obvious right? But in reality it isn't so apparent. Many people are conditioned to go after immediate desires or habitual desires. We sometimes like the wrong things. We sabotage and bring ill health to our self at times by giving into the wrong way. Maybe desperate, too hopeful, too blind, lonely, bored, lustful, insecure, confused, greedy, whatever. I had to really learn and focus on what works for me. What brings me most peace and happiness. What types of relationships are just more satisfying.
I now wait until it is obvious she will have a crush on me. She must show obvious interest. But at the same time, I see that she is mostly 'fit', decent, sane and stable. I see she wants a real relationship. Then she won't raise in me concerns of her intent. She knows that she wants you. I know its my choice how much I give or open to it. This is just the start. After time things will change for overall better or worse.
With guy friends I am not like the above. The girl friends I have had and do have, I want to intimately know. I have learned this. I have female acquaintances, but not female friends. I enjoy acquaintances, they have a great purpose on their own. If I am friends with a woman, I must also be intimate with them currently or potentially, with the intent being so. I keep separate definitions. So is M** like a guy friend?

[By Jove]

by Arena on Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:12 am
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By Jove wrote:
She's been into Freemasonry since forever and is now really into the occult, esoteric teachings, witchcraft, that sort of thing.

Hmm, how lunar Capricorn of her. Not to mention her Moon-Saturn

That doesn't seem capricornian at all to me and certainly not moon-saturn either. Secrecy, esoteric, witchcraft all sounds very Neptunian to me. Jupiter also offers the religious theme, which these things can certainly become.
And to no surprise she has that angular Jup tightly aspected to Neptune by a trine.

She also has her Moon sq Venus which would indeed suggest artistic abilities. But so would her Jupiter.

Would be interesting to know the tightest aspects in mundo was well as her vx.

[By Jove]

by TheScales_BothWays on Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:58 pm
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Arena wrote:
That doesn't seem capricornian at all to me and certainly not moon-saturn either.

2.Thoughts often unconventional and innovative.
...
9.Mystical or Masonic interests
...
Often they have mystical interests, for their prime symbol is the sabbatical goat, the Baphomet of Mendes, whose horned visage is the psychological prototype for most of the images of Satan that have come down to us. Capricorn is the traditional sign of freemasonry and sacred, necromantic mysteries of the human soul, which, like the emotions of those with the Moon here placed, lie buried at the innermost level of human awareness.

Secrecy, esoteric, witchcraft all sounds very Neptunian to me. Jupiter also offers the religious theme, which these things can certainly become.

Okay, maybe not Moon-Saturn, but this is what Jim wrote in his interpretation thread for Cap Moon:

And I couldn't agree less with him? Consider occultists Michael Bertiaux, Kenneth Anger with Cap Sun and Nesta Helen Webster with Capricorn Moon (their birth data at astro.com)
Also, traditionally speaking (like in Vedic astrology), Capricorn does indeed have a potential to be involved in the occults.

Sure, I agree with the above, especially if that is what interests those Neptunians instead of drama, art, etc. (which is probably because of a lack of Venus or Jupiter energies in their charts, though Jupiter can supplement the esoteric interest if they aren't interested in drama and religion instead)
But Pluto could be an occult-interest-producing planet too, at times? They could be better occultists than Neptunians, for what I may know.

jamescondor wrote:
I do not know for sure which planets fit more esoteric guidelines. I know of a couple Mars-Jupiter dudes that show esotericness in their art, use of words and general character.
One has Taurus moon, another Venus in Libra if this matters.

Mars-Jupiter is sometimes naturally "evangelistic" and perhaps even aggressive in their beliefs at times.
Taurus Moon is a hub sign, hence they are natural searchers of life's buried meanings.

[By Jove]

by Jim Eshelman on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:00 pm
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I agree with you on Moon-Saturn; however, Capricorn luminaries do show strong themes for this subject. I've never been clear whether it is their "bad boy / bad girl" need to cut against the grain acceptability, or some deeper alliance with the archetype, but that "Sabbatic goat" symbol-set, and everything that cascades away from it is a big theme.

And secrecy is a primary Capricorn trait. One of the things you can most often count on in a Cap luminary is that they are nondisclosing.

Of the many hundreds of people I know that are deeply committed to esoterics, Neptune is one of the least operative planets. In M**'s case, are no important Neptune themes at all except her Uranus and Neptune trine her exactly rising Jupiter. If this is an actual religious identification with her, then, yes, that would be a strong, strong showing. I suspect, though, that it isn't.

For a Scorpio-Capricorn, I would expect these interests to be primarily a subset of all sorts of life choices that acquire power by pushing hard against the boundaries of acceptability, and generally warring against narrow society.

I hadn't realized Kenneth's data was public. FWIW, I knew him a bit - to the level that we've been in each other's homes, when he still lived in LA. He didn't know his birth time for sure then, but (more on principle than anything, I think) said, "But of course I have Scorpio rising." <g> And, Tropically, he was almost right, with 0°34' Sagittarius rising <vbg>.

His Moon-Venus conjunction square Ascendant describes his mannerisms. The interlocking of a whole stream of Moon, Venus, Jupiter, Neptune aspects shows his film making style, and the Aquarius is compatible with the avant-garde label he learned early. But it's that Capricorn Sun that shows his persistent "bad boy" and "underground" behavior. I've always thought of him as the James Dean of his field. (Well, James Dean as Liberace.) And, of course, Capricorn fits well his chosen professional name, "Anger."

Oh, a few. A larger number fall under met, not know. For example, Kesha is one of our clients, I don't really know her at all. Our office represents a number of people in the entertainment field, so, over the years, I've intersected with several of them.

You live in LA for years, and you meet the people who live and work in LA. Some of them happen to work in TV and film.

Generally, these are private people, and private friendships. Those I've known more than passingly usually don't like people making a fuss about knowing them. I did mention on the forum Sandra Giles, who died recently - we'd spent social time a dozen or so times (I'd guess), and I know her daughter (a country and "standards" recording artist) pretty well. Marion and I have hung with the LA cabaret crowd and have met several TV actors that I've watched over the years (who tend to "stretch" themselves into that arena to develop more skills).

My very good friend, the late Bruce Watson, is best known for what is not one of his best performances: He was a central figure in the first episode of Star Trek His amazing work in the film "Johnny Got His Gun" never got the circulation it deserved. He did a lot of cop shows and westerns before that.

A favorite memory in my earliest years in LA was sitting down at a bench at a car wash and realizing I was sitting next to Don Knotts, with whom I had a nice chat until our cars came out. Less pleasant was having Burt Reynolds nearly hit me with his car LOL. When I worked in Studio City, a favorite sandwich shop was across the street from the MTM lot, so I'd run into several people who were in shows at the time (but they were, y'know, just other guys in line with me to get our sandwiches). When I worked in Burbank at Warner Music, I'd ride the same early bus that people would ride out to the studios who did small parts (not extras, but folks that you see in one show after another doing a couple of lines), so we'd chat on the way to work together.

One actor who did a few TV spots a year and a few movies was also a word processor that worked under me for a couple of years; he also did a lot of theater, and we'd run out to his plays when they opened. His longest run was on "Brothers & Sisters," and he also did a lot of what I call "onesies," one episode of a show - on shows like West Wing, Friends, X-Files, NYPD Blue, Murder She Wrote, Seinfeld, LA Law, Matlock, Quantum Leap, Alien Nation, Hill Street Blues - dozens more. He's fabulous at creating distinctive, quirky characters.

I think Jane Lynch thought I was stalking her - In the course of one month, I passed her three times at the "eye contact" level (twice in the same parking lot at a drug store where we both shopped, once a few blocks from there), and by the third time there was a "this is creepy, isn't that the same guy..." look when we made eye contact); and then she walked out of a meeting at my office and I was asked to show her to another room.

Oh, and my mate is an actor. More so in the past, but she's also done a couple of small stage tours the last few years. So yes, I sleep with a beautiful actress every night

That's what comes to mind at the moment.

[By Jove]

Bogdan574 on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:38 am
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FTR M** recently told me a bit on her thoughts on her Sidereal Chart. She says that Mars and Saturn were the two planets she most associated with her animus, the "archetypal opposite" within her - as opposed to the "feminine principle" within her.