Proper Use of Synastry

[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Jim Eshelman]

My impression is that astrology is like the weather, and it can help to plan your life activities around the seasons and the weather forecast.

Yes, I like that analogy a lot (and have used it).

Over in the Lunar Returns forum I just wrote about my Demi-Lunar Friday that is bleak and threatening here and worse in New York. Nonetheless, I'm flying out for a quick 36-hour flight to NYC for necessary business and back. There is really no choice but to make the trip, even though it looks like everything from severe arguments to economic crisis to a horrifying plane crash will occur. (There are times one must run out into the lightning storm carrying regardless of prudence, but one doesn't have to carry a large iron rod as one does so.)

I take confidence in the fact that Marion's chart doesn't show tragedy for at least two weeks after <g>, just a lot of surprise.

While part of me says "if you see a bad aspect, let go and move on", that's exactly what I've been doing, but then the aspect appears with the next person that interests me. Hypothesis: relationships are about specific lessons, and while it may be true that you will eventually need to learn to let go of a hurtful dynamic and move on to happier relationships, it may also be true that you really need to learn the lesson well before you will be able to move on.

Or, at least: You're going to pick in patterns, a person or situation that feels a certain way. If you keep going for the same feel, you'l tend to run into similar aspects.

How cruelly or kindly a person treats you isn't just about synastry, but their general tendencies about how they treat others.

Yes!

[Avshalom Binyamin]

As a follow-on, you've pointed out that people with strong malefics in their chart, such as Saturn and Neptune, tend to fare "better" in tough circumstances, than people who have an abundance of benefics.

This matches what psychology studies show. Neuroticism is less common than happier personality traits, but appear to have a protective effect in tough situations, where pessimism, caution, paranoia might come in handy.

This makes me wonder: would I in fact fare worse in a relationship without a strong Saturn aspect--my natural tendencies toward pessimism, caution, and sensitivity on the lookout for danger where there is none? And, as I grow older, and my neuroticism continues to mellow, will I just naturally seek less Saturn-filled relationships.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Jung found Saturn-Luminary and Saturn-Inner Planet aspects common in long term successful relationships.

I don't see Saturn-whatever aspects as "bad" aspects. It's a bit difficult to put into words clearly, but I see them more as "when you run into trouble, someone whose Saturn contacts your Sun, Moon, ect, will carry you.

Support. Nurse you though an illness. Visit you in the nursing home every day. Come up with some money when you've run out. Care for you. Jung also said Saturn represented your "Shadow" side - the parts of yourself you repressed and didn't show to the world. People whose Saturn aspects your luminaries know what your Shadow is and care about you anyway. Maybe they represent your shadow to you, so you think less of them. And their Saturn may limit you. Saturn sitting on Venus may be the wannabe promiscious Venus is limited to her partner, Saturn. No emotional adultery.

But it's not a "bad" aspect in the sense that Saturn sitting on your MC for a year is a "bad" aspect. It's a limiting and supporting thing.

[SteveS]

Jupe wrote:

Jung found Saturn-Luminary and Saturn-Inner Planet aspects common in long term successful relationships.

Excellent observation Jupe. Looking at my 48 year marriage, without a doubt, Jung was dead-on correct with his 'Saturn-Luminary' observation for relationships! My wife's Virgo Saturn partile cnj my Natal Sun with our Synastry Chart. Her Saturn on my Sun has definitely balanced my life with the necessary stability/structure/'down to earth' modes which is necessary for successful things to hold/bind a marriage together. So--don't let a Saturn-Luminary aspect with a Synastry chart scare you away for a possible long term successful relationship.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Jim Eshelman]

Walking my way through this post to see what spills out...

I think I've always struggled to know whether I am just too sensitive and paranoid about my place with others, or whether people I've known really are unloving. I know that I'm very sensitive, and the two-pronged answer is to try to grow thicker skin, and find people who are super kind and gentle, and truly care about me.

Having Neptune rising and Saturn at MC is a psychologically tough pattern. From knowing you, I'm impressed with just how psychologically healthy you are, given that setup.

Saturn and Neptune both strong potentially plays hell with healthy relationships. Both have strong security needs (though of quite different types). One is intensely attaching, connecting, and the other intensely aloof, detached, protective, which gives an unusually strong push-pull, vulnerability-protection, attachment-detachment clump of patterns. I suppose your mind - your ferociously curious Virgo mind - was your best protection in all of that (and then that "in your head" stuff had to deal with Saturn's sternness that you weren't in the real world") -- and so forth and so on etc.

Mother
27 September 1946 11:55pm
Payettte ID
[...]
I didn’t experience her as a very loving person. I experienced her as unavailable, very critical and invasive, sometimes sadistic and raging, and often involving strange communication inappropriate to my age level. I see this synastry as a lot of mind-reading, strange communication, and power struggles.

There's going to be an identification with her, given not only the shared Virgo Sun but especially with her Sun on your Midheaven; but adjacent Moon-signs would have a hard time clicking.

She looks like a truly overwhelming presence in your life. Her Sun on your MC, her Neptune on your Descendant (opposite your rising Neptune), her Neptune on your MC (and your Moon), her Sun on your Saturn. These are reality-warping placements, I would at least expect something like "never knowing where you stood with her" or some other form of there being no stable reality for you around her. There is intense authority.

Another factor, though, is I bet she fed your mind. First, she's a Virgo so it's going to be hard for her to do anything else. Second, her Mercury is on your luminaries, your Mercury on her Moon. (And her Pluto squares your Mercury, high impact of set-your-head-spinning thoughts or concepts.

In general, her luminaries are strong in your chart, especially her Sun - she was an inescapably strong presence and personality to you, I think. Her Venus and Jupiter do nothing to your chart. Neither do her Venus and Mars. Your description of her fits her chart, i.e., I think you had a realistic picture (at least of one expression of her).

Your Jupiter is on her IC. I think it was important to you to try to please her, give something to her, contribute to her. And your Sun is exactly square her Asc, so you were both born to be significant figures in each other's lives.

Sister
27 January 1968 11:55pm
San Diego CA
[...]
In some ways I experienced this relationship as more loving, connected. However, it was also a relationship that included emotional incest and sexual abuse. I don’t see the synastry as particularly terrible, though I see her as an abuse survivor whose survival strategies were pathological lying, manipulation, and sexual abuse of her younger siblings. I see the Sa-90-Ve 001’ as telling most of the story. I burst her bubble by rejecting her “love”.

Hoping it isn't offensive of me to say so: From her chart, your sister looks like a mess.

Her chart starts off very hard on yours, with her Saturn on your IC and her Pluto square your Ascendant-Neptune. (Hmm, her Pluto serves in the place of your mother's Uranus.) Her Moon squares your Pluto almost partile, which entwines all sorts of dynamics (many of which you touched on, but all of which are quite intense). Her Venus squares your Saturn exactly.

I would not, from these charts, have called it a loving relationship. I hear you experienced it that way, or at least have it labelled that way, but the interchanges have so many examples of exactly the opposite. Given details you mentioned, I'm surprised her Mars isn't doing anything of note to your chart (unless one counts the wide square to your Neptune which, come to think of it, would fit).

The single best thing is her Jupiter half a degree from your Venus. This is surely what you were feeling at the best of times. But notice that it's your Venus. What you described as a "more loving" relationship was one that, as really its only positive virtue, gave generous opportunity for your love to express. This seems an important point.

Father
20 November 1956 3:00am
San Diego CA
[...]
My dad occasionally beat me at my mom’s behest, but was generally pretty kind to me, though he was too afraid of my mom to stand up to her ever. I used to drive him crazy with my middle-child attention-seeking pranks and annoying behavior.

He seems a decent fellow, with Moon 18' from square Jupiter plus Venus rising. That also ties in your Jupiter, which is the same degree as his (and square his Moon).

His Sun exactly conjoins your Mars. There would be struggle with this and maybe violence - "combat" is more the feel - with Sun (him) having a tendency to come out on top. This is male-competitive and actually downright Oedipal (something natural to your rising Neptune). You were his competition, but you were also his son.

There is emotional distance here, as well. His Mercury-Saturn square your Venus, his Venus on your Pluto. His Mars cuts at your Jupiter - esteem? unaccepting of your "big ideas?" - but the benevolence of some aspects seems the strongest message. I think the emotional distance is also fed by him being a Scorpio: I've often seen Scorpio men think it was their place to be "strong and removed."

[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Avshalom Binyamin]

Thank you for this Jim. It's deeply validating.

I've often wondered whether my impressions were realistic. Because it always felt on some level that I was "raised by wolves" and lucky to be apart from them. Yet it often feels strange that I'm not worse off than I am, if it was really so bad.

It sounds like my impressions match the charts, and I can focus less energy on wondering about my perspective, and more on figuring out how to continue healing, and the best way to approach relationships going forward.

[Jim Eshelman]

You have a goldmine here for digging through your own formative concepts and habits about relationships. Good stuff in that sense.

As I was wandering through the charts - especially with your sister, but also your mother - I found myself thinking along a particular line. Probably you're already ahead of me on this, bu it seems worth my mentioning. It has to do with how we label things and then carry those labels into future relationships. To pick a simplistic example: If you had a miserable, hurtful relationship but the "adopted line" (which could mean the honest thought at the time) was that "this was a good relationship," then the way that relationship felt becomes the template in our future search for "Item: good relationship."

In the relationship to your sister, which I think you indicated was the most loving of the three, I observed that the one you labelled this way wasn't the one that gave you he most love, but rather the one that encouraged or permitted you to most loving. That is worth thinking about in terms of your personal label-making about relationships. Also, anything else positive about the relationship with your sister (which, astrologically, has almost nothing to recommend it) may be programmed or filed under "good relationship" in your personal file cabinet.

I don't think I wrote that very well, but I trust you to read my mind and/or figure out something more useful than I was saying as you struggle to sort through my brambles.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Avshalom Binyamin]

I'm also deeply relieved to compare and see so much more Venus and Jupiter in my chart with my daughter. It's a relationship that's not without challenges, but my deepest fear is letting my family trauma completely spill into yet another generation.

Side note: This week seems like a perfect week to explore relationship issues. Saturday's Lunar Return features only natal Venus angular, in the midst of Pluto-Venus and Uranus-Neptune octiles.

The six-week text only relationship mentioned earlier in this thread (with the exact Mars-Saturn octile) flamed out in predictable fashion, much to my relief.

I took your advice in a different thread and planned a road trip next week. My daughter and I are leaving next Monday for a great American road trip to Salt Lake City, Bryce Canyon, Zion National Park, Antelope Canyon, the Grand Canyon, and Las Vegas.

[Jim Eshelman]

OMG she is going to be SO blown away. (You, too.) How old is she? Few kids get to see that kind of mind-blowing stuff, especially all at once.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

She's 6. We're both super excited!

[Avshalom Binyamin]

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[Jim Eshelman]

Where's the birthday spot? Salt Lake City, maybe? (Besides Temple square etc., don't miss the Cathedral of the Magdalene, an historic and beautiful Catholic church that you can walk into during the day.)

For surprisingly good "real food" on the road, we were shocked to discover a place called the Crazy Cow Diner in Beaver, UT. I think it's on the 15; in any case, it's in Beaver, in the western part about halfway between Salt Lake City and St. George. A nice interruption of other food choices.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

Oh, thanks for the tip!

I'll be in SLC the evening of the 7th, until mid-morning on the 9th. Bday is on the 8th, SSR is mid-day on the 9th. Will be in Bryce Canyon/Zion in the afternoon on the 9th, and then will be in Antelope Canyon and Grand canyon on the 10th. I know the Jupiter line runs from SLC to Las Vegas (basically, the path of the 15), so trying not to go to far east, though I hope the plans on the 10th will be ok.

[Veronica]

I am so happy to hear of your road trip.

If I can offer any advice...
Take lots and lots of photos of her and you.

I took my kids on a vacation when my son was 6ish and my daughter 4ish.....and now they barely remember until I pull out the photos.
But......
*I* remember Disney and Santa Monica Pier and the Museum....I treasure those memories.
You will too.

Have a blast and spoil you both!!

[Jim Eshelman]

if you only have a limited amount of time at Bryce Canyon, don't fail to get all the way to the top. One plan is to get to the top a little before sunset, actually see the sunset from up there, and then see amazing cloud shifting colors etcetera on the drive back down. There are no bad canyons, although the lower ones may be crowded by early afternoon. Actually, there's no bad way to see the place.

Zion as a quick tour has a drive through that takes about three hours if you pull over here and there.

Not sure where you plan to stay near Grand Canyon, but Flagstaff has more to it than i expected. Again, you can focus on local family owned diners and get IMHO much better food, value, and pleasant surprises than the obvious chains.

Salt Lake City is very walkable, depending on distances. Take a few minutes to learn the flawlessly logical street naming plan - once you get the key, it's nearly impossiblr to get lost. IMHO Temple Square deserves a patient tour including seeing the whole visitor center and, of course, the Tabernacle behind the Temple. Good kid stuff in tue visitor center if she has the patience for stories about settlers.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

Will do V!

Though my family is remarkable for early childhood memories (we all remember back to before age 2), and my daughter seems to be no different.

I do have a fond memories of Disneyland too! Once, age 2, with my family. Then at 27, with my daughter's mom when we were dating. And again, 2 years ago (37), with daughter, age 4.

Memories are all we take with us. I'm filling the second half of my life with lovely ones. And a human thing is that painful memories fade faster, if we can process our traumas in a way that allows us to let go of them at least a little.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

Jim, those are exactly the data I was hoping for. Thank you!

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, those are exactly the data I was hoping for. Thank you!

You're welcome

Digging around now that I can get to a map program. I think in Flagstaff we last stayed at the Econo Lodge University. (Affordable, comfortable.) If I'm remembering right, then our main path through town the couple days we were there was South Milton Road, which is highway 40. The place we kept going back to for food was the Galaxy Diner although, sadly (and most surprisingly), Google now has it marked "permanently closed." Nonetheless, it's characteristic of a lot of places around there on Old Route 66 and nearby streets.

I just noted that your rising Neptune, besides being close in San Diego (and exact around San Clemente) also passes a little north of Las Vegas and right through Great Salt Lake (the lake, not the city). Be ready for truly Neptunian adventures. (Your Neptune as at the Venus/Asc midpoint, so "esthetic wonder" isn't a bad guess at the outcome, I think.)

I have a couple of folders of Utah park pictures on my Facebook page. The 2010 trip has the best Bryce pictures, the 2016 the best Zion, and the 2017 Colorado trip probably ends with places in eastern Utah like Arches. Below, I'll put one of my favorite Bryce spots plus one of the "ancient chesspiece space gods" (my assessment) that surround you and look down on you in Zion. (But being there is way better than these crappy pictures.)

[Avshalom Binyamin]

That's awesome!

I've never been to any of these places, but love unique geology like that!