Nails in the coffin

[sotonye]

Ended a year long relationship a few hours ago, feel a deep sense of hatred with how intensely my image and actions would be contorted into monstrous shapes by this girl. She’d eventually acknowledge that what she was saying was untrue, that it was pretty terrible to want to hurt someone in that way, but then would continue to hurl abuse without reason. It hurts pretty deeply not to be seen by someone who should see you most clearly, I’m not sure how it’s even possible for this to happen, but it’s a problem I’ve dealt with for most of the year with her; random, hurtful, baseless things would be advanced by her which she had no explanation for, for which she then apologized, and which, after her apology, were then followed immediately with more abuse. She told me she could change it but nothing really worked, and I have to accept the reality that that’s just not something I can have, that sometimes others can’t be what we hope, even when they say they can be, which I guess isn’t really their fault.

At any rate I’m guessing this whole disaster is a manifestation of either Saturn transiting my Neptune or June transiting my Mercury-Pluto. I feel deeply that in a way Pluto gives an acute sense of self and that no one on this earth will ever be able to see me as clearly as I do, that maybe this transit by Jupiter to Pluto is maybe highlighting this issue

[Jim Eshelman]

My sympathy, Sotonye. Some of your descriptions touched me, what you describe would hurt deeply.

I think you're right that this is reflected in transiting Saturn's exact conjunction with your Neptune, which was 0°03' past when you posted. (Saturn travels 0°06' today, so it was exact a little less than 12 hours ago).(While transiting Juno is stationary today, it doesn't aspect your Mercury-Pluto. It's at 27° Virgo.)

Jupiter is octile your Merucry-Pluto, though, only 0°01' from your Mercury when you posted. Not sure what the Jupiter-Mercury means but Jupiter-Pluto transits are noted for "fortunate separations." You probably don't want to hear this today, but it's a good bet that this is going to shake out as a good thing - freeing you from a bad connection, perhaps, or freeing up psychological and other energy.

You have a Venus Return coming up this month - time for a new (more or less one year long) Venus cycle?

Your February 4 SLR has Jupiter 4° above Asc and Saturn-Pluto 3-4° below Asc. That means that Saturn's transit to your Neptune (0°20' in the SLR) is rising.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I'm sorry. Jupiter-Pluto has meant separations for me too, but always ones that turned out to be more than for the best.

When someone tells you who they are believe them. She wants a steady boyfriend, but you aren't the boyfriend she wants.

Sometimes you're better off alone for awhile than trying again. There's no need to rush into anything just to avoid being alone. With your Jupiter-Pluto aspects, it might be better not to try for a steady girlfriend for awhile rather than a series of "well, that didn't work" relationships that can diminish your confidence.

[Jim Eshelman]

Sotonye, did you post her birth data here previously, perhaps asking for a synastry assist? If so, I'd like to revisit that thread. (Or, if not, do you have her data and would like to post it now?)

[sotonye]

My sympathy, Sotonye. Some of your descriptions touched me, what you describe would hurt deeply.

Thank you Mr. E, I am really hurting right now

I think you're right that this is reflected in transiting Saturn's exact conjunction with your Neptune, which was 0°03' past when you posted. (Saturn travels 0°06' today, so it was exact a little less than 12 hours ago).(While transiting Juno is stationary today, it doesn't aspect your Mercury-Pluto. It's at 27° Virgo.)

Saturn was at 0°00’ the exact moment it happened, I checked my transits during the entire ordeal since I was in disbelief, this transit felt like being forced to face reality

Jupiter is octile your Merucry-Pluto, though, only 0°01' from your Mercury when you posted. Not sure what the Jupiter-Mercury means but Jupiter-Pluto transits are noted for "fortunate separations." You probably don't want to hear this today, but it's a good bet that this is going to shake out as a good thing - freeing you from a bad connection, perhaps, or freeing up psychological and other energy.

I know what you’re saying is right, I know life will move forward in a way it couldn’t with her, and it does feel hopeful to know the world won’t stop spinning because of this, but a part of me wishes it would, I would almost rather be stuck in that hurtful place with her than move on to some better circumstance without the girl. This love stuff is almost awe inspiring, the chasm it leaves feels so much larger than myself, it feels like it could swallow the world. It’s hard to imagine this getting better, but you’re right that it will despite how I feel

You have a Venus Return coming up this month - time for a new (more or less one year long) Venus cycle?

Can we track Venus returns to see that kind of thing?

Your February 4 SLR has Jupiter 4° above Asc and Saturn-Pluto 3-4° below Asc. That means that Saturn's transit to your Neptune (0°20' in the SLR) is rising.

This is brutal and it makes perfect sense

[sotonye]

I'm sorry. Jupiter-Pluto has meant separations for me too, but always ones that turned out to be more than for the best.

Do life circumstances improve only or do we also recover emotionally? It feels like my spirit has been cut and I’m wondering if anyone actually recovers from things like this

When someone tells you who they are believe them. She wants a steady boyfriend, but you aren't the boyfriend she wants.

This is extremely hard but I know this is right, it just feels like I’m under the sea

Sometimes you're better off alone for awhile than trying again. There's no need to rush into anything just to avoid being alone. With your Jupiter-Pluto aspects, it might be better not to try for a steady girlfriend for awhile rather than a series of "well, that didn't work" relationships that can diminish your confidence.

This is a good idea, but what’s strange is that an old lover I had not spoken to came out of the blue and asked me to have sex? This happened as soon as this recent breakup concluded. I’m not sure if I should pursue it

[sotonye]

Sotonye, did you post her birth data here previously, perhaps asking for a synastry assist? If so, I'd like to revisit that thread. (Or, if not, do you have her data and would like to post it now?)

I haven’t posted her data so I’ll post it now

May 28th, 1998
9:21am

Chester, PA

[Jim Eshelman]

You have a Venus Return coming up this month - time for a new (more or less one year long) Venus cycle?

Can we track Venus returns to see that kind of thing?

I don't know that the Venus Return chart will give anything useful - past checking them has been mixed - but the fact that transiting Venus is crossing your natal Venus means that you have a new 360° cycle in Venus matters starting.

Venus last conjoined your Venus May 1, 2019. That would have started a new cycle. Did, perchance, this relationship date from about then? Or, in any case, was there a new wave in your Venus life approximately then?

The square occurred July 13. That should have brought a reflection and reassessment, a 'taking stock" (probably pleasant, because Venus-Venus transits usually are).

The opposition was September 24. About then, there likely was a (partial) fulfillment of what seemed to be started in early May. (The alternative is that one sees the car isn't on the road and jumps off to start a new cycle.) The final square The final square December 6 likely would have brought a further "taking stock" of the matter.

These broad cycles are separate from the issue of the exact transit. Many astrologers (mostly Tropical) apply this kind of thinking to all aspects. I find it is particularly meaningful in a planet's aspects to itself. Thus, in my interpretation of Jupiter transit to natal Jupiter you won't see the "this is going to be great!" of most of my Jupiter transit interpretations. Instead, you will find references to reassessment and changing phrase on Jupiter matters. (I don't find in practice that it's "super Jupiter" but, often, is more thoughtful and reflective, which I attribute to the playing out of the broader cycle.)

[Jim Eshelman]

If you want to review the chart itself, your last Sidereal Venus Return (SVR) occurred May 1, 2019, 1:51:42 AM PDT, in Burbank. It's one super-strong detail is that your natal Mars is exactly on WP.

[Jim Eshelman]

May 28th, 1998
9:21am
Chester, PA

The chart comparison is stunning. No wonder this gut-punched you the way it did.

First of all, your Venus is within a degree of her Midheaven on one side and square her Moon on the other side - 0°01' from their midpoint. You loved the hell out of her and romantic feelings were abundant.

Your Uranus and Neptune straddling her Descendant mostly just means you were a bit crazy - in an altered state of reality - although that means they were in mundane square to your Venus. That is, around her, you had Venus-Uranus and Venus-Neptune squares.

Your Mars squares her Mercury. That's often quite sexual also but probably because of the level of interaction it stirs. It has all the pros and cons you'd expect from Mercury-Mars, the downside being arguments and criticism, and upside being intense, passionate exchange.

Of course, your Taurus Moon was likely to respond well to her Taurus Sun. It was natural for you to adapt to furthering her purposs.

Your Sun exactly squares her Uranus (partile). It was simply exciting, electrical, and eye-opening (in several forms that can take).

Your Jupiter doesn't touch her chart. Your Saturn conjoins her Jupiter. There is room (among other possibilities) for you to be a downer to her or "cost" her in some fashion - maybe literally, maybe figurative. It's natural for people to think that those with Saturn on their Jupiter "take" from them without giving. (I'm not saying this was so, I'm saying that's an easy perception.)

Flipping the chart, one can't miss her Sun near your Ascendant (not close, but broadly there) and in the same sign as your Moon. We usually think that such people are (to coin a phrase) the sun and the moon and the stars for us - our "heroes," or great, glowing examples we admire and want to be near.

Her Venus squares your Uranus and Neptune - much as your own Venus does mundanely in the context of her chart - so romance, altered reality, variation, novelty, excitement connected to pleasure and "coloring outside the lines" in different ways would be a basic part of your relationship. But her Venus conjoins Saturn, with her Saturn square your Uranus even closer - I'll leave that without over-interpreting, there are numerous ways it can work into the story (but probably one of you wanted more freedom than the other did).

Her Jupiter is on your Saturn. She gave you a sense of stability, possibly a comfort at "settling down."

The Mercury-Mars is reciprocal. Your Mars to her Mercury is quite close, her Mars to your Mercury-Pluto a little wider.

Does this sound about right?

[sotonye]

I don't know that the Venus Return chart will give anything useful - past checking them has been mixed - but the fact that transiting Venus is crossing your natal Venus means that you have a new 360° cycle in Venus matters starting.

I could use a new cycle in Venus matters right about now

Venus last conjoined your Venus May 1, 2019. That would have started a new cycle. Did, perchance, this relationship date from about then? Or, in any case, was there a new wave in your Venus life approximately then?

Oh wow yes actually, things became more serious and official at right around that time, and another girl also came into the picture a few days earlier which complicated things but improved our relationship eventually

The opposition was September 24. About then, there likely was a (partial) fulfillment of what seemed to be started in early May. (The alternative is that one sees the car isn't on the road and jumps off to start a new cycle.)

Around this time the other girl who came into the picture left around this time, it’s hard to explain but basically she has helped my ex with sexual confidence

These broad cycles are separate from the issue of the exact transit. Many astrologers (mostly Tropical) apply this kind of thinking to all aspects. I find it is particularly meaningful in a planet's aspects to itself. Thus, in my interpretation of Jupiter transit to natal Jupiter you won't see the "this is going to be great!" of most of my Jupiter transit interpretations. Instead, you will find references to reassessment and changing phrase on Jupiter matters. (I don't find in practice that it's "super Jupiter" but, often, is more thoughtful and reflective, which I attribute to the playing out of the broader cycle.)

This is actually something I’ve been wondering about, thank you for touching on this Mr. E

[sotonye]

The chart comparison is stunning. No wonder this gut-punched you the way it did.

First of all, your Venus is within a degree of her Midheaven on one side and square her Moon on the other side - 0°01' from their midpoint. You loved the hell out of her and romantic feelings were abundant.

This is soul crushing to hear I had this with her, something this beautiful

Your Uranus and Neptune straddling her Descendant mostly just means you were a bit crazy - in an altered state of reality - although that means they were in mundane square to your Venus. That is, around her, you had Venus-Uranus and Venus-Neptune squares.

A lot of our relationship was based on practicing magick together and we shared a lot of weird experiences, like for example we turned her favorite necklace into a talisman and now it moves on its own whenever her feelings are out of balance. Could the Uranus/Neptune Venus related?

Your Mars squares her Mercury. That's often quite sexual also but probably because of the level of interaction it stirs. It has all the pros and cons you'd expect from Mercury-Mars, the downside being arguments and criticism, and upside being intense, passionate exchange.

The downfall of this involvement was definitely the random venomous words I’d get from her, couldn’t get passed it

Of course, your Taurus Moon was likely to respond well to her Taurus Sun. It was natural for you to adapt to furthering her purposes.

It was definitely the most natural flowing interaction I’ve ever had, I felt for a long time that she presented the opportunity for me to express love completely

Your Sun exactly squares her Uranus (partile). It was simply exciting, electrical, and eye-opening (in several forms that can take).

Yes there was an easy flowing current between us and this is also soul crushing to remember lol

Your Jupiter doesn't touch her chart. Your Saturn conjoins her Jupiter. There is room (among other possibilities) for you to be a downer to her or "cost" her in some fashion - maybe literally, maybe figurative. It's natural for people to think that those with Saturn on their Jupiter "take" from them without giving. (I'm not saying this was so, I'm saying that's an easy perception.)

She would often feel like I represented impossible demands, she had done a lot of growing in order to maintain the relationship in the beginning, and she felt that this exempted her from any new changes later on, that any new needs I brought were almost oppressive because of everything she did before. Also old problems would constantly recur and she felt that I was oppressive since I don’t know, since I tell her it’s not okay to abuse someone verbally and she can’t change it? I don’t really understand the thinking here, I can’t explain it well right now, but she did feel like she was weighed down in a way

Flipping the chart, one can't miss her Sun near your Ascendant (not close, but broadly there) and in the same sign as your Moon. We usually think that such people are (to coin a phrase) the sun and the moon and the stars for us - our "heroes," or great, glowing examples we admire and want to be near.

Something about her was sort of like this, she has Sun-Pluto natally and she always stood so far out to me, i thought she was my ideal I am burning in love what I remember, I am a conflagration for what she was to me

This is hard

Her Venus squares your Uranus and Neptune - much as your own Venus does mundanely in the context of her chart - so romance, altered reality, variation, novelty, excitement connected to pleasure and "coloring outside the lines" in different ways would be a basic part of your relationship. But her Venus conjoins Saturn, with her Saturn square your Uranus even closer - I'll leave that without over-interpreting, there are numerous ways it can work into the story (but probably one of you wanted more freedom than the other did)

Wait we have Venus-Saturn?

Her Jupiter is on your Saturn. She gave you a sense of stability, possibly a comfort at "settling down."

Yes, thought I would marry her

The Mercury-Mars is reciprocal. Your Mars to her Mercury is quite close, her Mars to your Mercury-Pluto a little wider.

The stars symbolizing me yelling

Does this sound about right?

Yes this sums up basically everything, this was tough, but thank you Mr. E

[Jim Eshelman]

SHE has Venus s closely conjunct Saturn.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Do life circumstances improve only or do we also recover emotionally? It feels like my spirit has been cut and I’m wondering if anyone actually recovers from things like this

Eventually, it doesn't hurt every hour of every day. The memory never hurts less, but every blessed thing doesn't bring it up again. At the beginning, you are reminded by your toothbrush, the toaster, coffee, your keys. After a bit, those memories are overwritten by new memories. Wash your sheets and blankets and pillows so her scent is no longer lying in wait for you. It's exactly like mourning, and it takes the same amount of time to get over a relationship no matter what happened and who chose to leave.

Generally, it takes about 3 months to start really feeling better after losing a relationship that lasted about a year. But if you have strong memories, especially good ones, around things like holidays, you will still have to process them, and it can feel like it takes a year to recover.

It takes longer if you keep checking her twitter or facebook or mutual friends for news. Don't do that.

This is a good idea, but what’s strange is that an old lover I had not spoken to came out of the blue and asked me to have sex? This happened as soon as this recent breakup concluded. I’m not sure if I should pursue it

Well.... sometimes that can help, but you have heard of being on the rebound? You can end up dealing with two broken relationships if you don't take the time to recover between. If this former lover is really just looking for sex, that might be fine, but people are almost never really just looking for sex with a former lover.

[sotonye]

Eventually, it doesn't hurt every hour of every day. The memory never hurts less, but every blessed thing doesn't bring it up again. At the beginning, you are reminded by your toothbrush, the toaster, coffee, your keys. After a bit, those memories are overwritten by new memories. Wash your sheets and blankets and pillows so her scent is no longer lying in wait for you. It's exactly like mourning, and it takes the same amount of time to get over a relationship no matter what happened and who chose to leave.

This is completely excellent thank you Jupiter, I would like to frame this

Generally, it takes about 3 months to start really feeling better after losing a relationship that lasted about a year. But if you have strong memories, especially good ones, around things like holidays, you will still have to process them, and it can feel like it takes a year to recover.

This is good to know, I’m swinging between being extremely angry and feeling crushed but these feelings seem easier to accept and bear when I hear they won’t last forever, I can definitely feel like dying for a few months

It takes longer if you keep checking her twitter or facebook or mutual friends for news. Don't do that.

I’ve been doing this impulsively and I haven’t been able to control myself at all, but she locked her twitter account a few hours ago randomly which is a complete godsend to me, so now I can’t see anything

Well.... sometimes that can help, but you have heard of being on the rebound? You can end up dealing with two broken relationships if you don't take the time to recover between. If this former lover is really just looking for sex, that might be fine, but people are almost never really just looking for sex with a former lover.

The same problems I had with the former lover cropped up immediately and nothing ended up happening

[sotonye]

I’m not sure this makes any sense or if I’m just imagining things, but I feel more like myself? I don’t know how that even makes sense, i feel like I haven’t had any energy to put toward being charming and social and suddenly I’ve found all of it, but how does that even work? Was I in such a foul mood this whole time? Preoccupied with her? Is my energy freed up? Is this even supposed to happen so quickly

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. You were pouring everything into the relationship. When it ended, suddenly you had all this free energy, so of course that changed right away. Same amount of energy, but not pouring it all down one bottomless pit.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

You're welcome to frame anything that helps.

I’ve been doing this impulsively and I haven’t been able to control myself at all, but she locked her twitter account a few hours ago randomly which is a complete godsend to me, so now I can’t see anything

That was a stroke of luck. Take it and run with it. Find something else to occupy your time other than her.

The same problems I had with the former lover cropped up immediately and nothing ended up happening

yeah. Nobody changed, so the relationship didn't either. People always think other people are going to change, but they aren't.

[sotonye]

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. You were pouring everything into the relationship. When it ended, suddenly you had all this free energy, so of course that changed right away. Same amount of energy, but not pouring it all down one bottomless pit.

This does make sense, I was pouring my whole life, every single day into that girl

[sotonye]

yeah. Nobody changed, so the relationship didn't either. People always think other people are going to change, but they aren't.

I Have a problem thinking that this is possible, especially when they say so convincingly that they can do it

[Jim Eshelman]

The key is to focus on changing yourself as you deem necessary and never consider that you have any power to change someone else. (Maybe you can influence them, maybe you cant: Grief is alleviated by sticking to the preconception that you will always have them exactly as they are in the present.)

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

People say a lot of things. Stop listening to what they say and look at what they do. People do not change from intellectual discussions (or emotional discussions) or threats of losing a relationship. And they don't change over-night or over a week or over a month. People can't just "decide" to change. It doesn't work that way.

Before you start a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, look at them and what they are like "in the wild." Look at what their friends do too, because people prefer people who are like them. Don't date your fantasy of what they are. Date the real person. Get to know the real person without thinking that person might change how she behaves or what she likes to do or anything else. IF she isn't basically a good fit out of the gate, she's not a good fit, so move on.

Opposites attract, but only for purposes of producing hybrid vigor in children. Not for long term relationships.

[sotonye]

The key is to focus on changing yourself as you deem necessary and never consider that you have any power to change someone else. (Maybe you can influence them, maybe you cant: Grief is alleviated by sticking to the preconception that you will always have them exactly as they are in the present.)

This is hard, I’ve persisted on the idea that I could change her for the better for over a year, it’s still hard not to think I can now, I’m under a terrible illusion, I think maybe I’m just afraid of what this may mean. It feels like for me it may mean being alone Forever

[Jim Eshelman]

That's a painful-sounding Aries perspective: To think you're the authority over how somebody else is. That there is some standard of their perfection to your ideal that you get to command.

Besides, you're saying effectively saying that you don't want the person you know, and the person you want is someone else that may or may not ever exist.

You don't get to pick how people are. You get to discover it and be amazed by it.

There's room and need for all sorts of compromise in a relationship, but that doesn't extend to how one intrinsically is.

[sotonye]

People say a lot of things. Stop listening to what they say and look at what they do. People do not change from intellectual discussions (or emotional discussions) or threats of losing a relationship. And they don't change over-night or over a week or over a month. People can't just "decide" to change. It doesn't work that way.

Before you start a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, look at them and what they are like "in the wild." Look at what their friends do too, because people prefer people who are like them. Don't date your fantasy of what they are. Date the real person. Get to know the real person without thinking that person might change how she behaves or what she likes to do or anything else. IF she isn't basically a good fit out of the gate, she's not a good fit, so move on.

Opposites attract, but only for purposes of producing hybrid vigor in children. Not for long term relationships.

This is hitting me in my heart right now, I’m in shock at your words. When I first met her I stopped talking to her within the first few days because of some weird things I noticed, the first of which was that she had absolutely no interest in what I was saying and would change the subject to whatever she wanted whenever she wanted, as if I wasn’t there. I told her it seems like she’s talking to herself and just has me there as a witness. I ended things immediately mostly because of this, but she messaged me a few days later apologizing and saying all manner of nice things, so I went back. I shouldn’t have went back, she showed me who she was. I will never forget the principle you’re showing me now, if shes not a good fit out the gate she isn’t a good fit!!!!! This is massive

[sotonye]

That's a painful-sounding Aries perspective.

Besides, you're saying effectively that you don't want the person you know, and the person you want is someone else thst may or may not ever exist.

I am in pain, I’m scared for the future and I feel like the end of a turbulent river meeting the beginning of a dam, all the energy in the world is rushing toward a girl who’s impossible to have for too long. It feels sick, like a joke idk. But you’re right