Mozart and Beethoven: Creative Spirits

[By Jove]

by By Jove on Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:57 pm
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I want to see what we can find in their natal charts that points to their creative similarities and differences.

I know that Mozart and Beethoven are portrayed almost as opposites (Mozart portrayed as delicate and orderly while Beethoven is portrayed as brooding and passionate). But it really isn't the case. They have a lot of similarities. For one both were difficult and controversial artists for their time. The many criticisms levied against Beethoven were levied against Mozart too. Mozart's music was too difficult and complicated. He would exposit and develop many different complicated ideas at once, which made it difficult for audiences to follow him. He was also criticized for wearing his heart on his sleeve and though we don't think of Mozart today as a fiery composer all too many concertos, symphonies, variations, and fantasies testify to the opposite. He would also use strange harmonies and dissonances, a lot of chromatic colorations (especially late in his career), (these hint at diminished chords) and thus destabilized conventional harmonies.

Beethoven was similar with Mozart, but even more extreme. But he also had some notable differences. He would make extreme contrasts among musical themes. He would create an argument not on symmetric question and response but in ratcheting up tensions and expectations. He used dotted rhythms and dissonances a lot (especially diminished chords). His music had a strong sense of rhythm. Like Mozart he seriously expanded the orchestra, both in its size and expressive abilities. He also had a penchant for deep gloom and melancholy. Mozart had this too but kept it under check most of the time, as Mozart restrained himself more. But unlike Mozart, Beethoven was more committed to radically changing and expanding the form. He also worked to consciously change the very definition of what music was and what being an artist meant. Mozart hinted at such changes, but Beethoven consciously sought to make a new image for music.

For these reasons both Mozart's and Beethoven's music I would describe as "serpentine", which is a description I think perfectly fits Berlioz and Liszt too, who both did similar deeds to music. Mozart and Beethoven were contrasted against "noble simplicity", such as the music of Haydn, music that was simpler, easier to follow, and appealed to Neoclassical ideals of moderation, beauty, and balance. Mozart and Beethoven also did away with music that was frivolous with too many notes, such as a lot of popular music at the time. They shaved down the music to themes that were simple and powerful. Yes, it sounds contradictory. They were complicated, but their complication was because they took the content and followed it to the end. They didn't just slapdash a bunch of fast scales and arpeggios.

I also think their music was "magical". Both were Freemasons and had a thorough knowledge of mystical teachings. (Isis and Nephthys, intellect + will = magic) And it is possible Mozart and Beethoven were magicians and used music as a form of magic.

Beethoven in particular creates resurrection machines, music of death, rebirth, and immortality. The most noticeable example is his third symphony "Eroica" and ninth symphony.

I may need some help here with planets:

I think I most easily notice that their Moons are less than 1' apart. So their Moons, their magic in a way, is very similar. Both had Sun closely conjunct Mercury, which emphasizes speech and communication. It also shows their great resourcefulness and clear logic in their music.

The primary conflict with Beethoven is Mars apposing his Sun and Mercury. But with Mozart, Neptune opposes Sun and Mercury. So with Beethoven, we can easily see a moody and brooding man, one who Goethe described as the most energetic musician he ever saw. Beethoven was also notoriously up-front, attacking the status quo and expecting trouble. Mozart, on the other hand, has an aspect that emphasizes a love of drama and music, but also of secrecy. Mozart was also a spendthrift, and unfortunately he had a difficult life that conspired against him, preventing him from reaching his full potential.

Beethoven (Mars opposite Mercury) emphasizes once more an energetic personality, and also someone who had a lot of mechanical ability and strategic finesse. Beethoven was obsessed with working his technique in composing and performance. He also took a very active interest in how the different instruments mechanically worked. Mozart (Neptune opposite Mercury) is acutely sensitive. When a friend of Mozart's father blew a trumpet loudly behind the child Mozart's back, the child Mozart fainted. Mozart was also legendary for his incredible retention of memory. He could copy down a piece entirely after just hearing it once or a few times.

I don't know how to deal with "relationship astrology" (comparing two charts in synestry, so I can't really do that). Their musical ingenuity seems pretty bound by their Sun-Mercury conjunction and that their Moons are practically in the exact same spot in their charts. Thoughts anyone?

[By Jove]

by SteveS on Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:48 pm
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The main commonality with the two charts is very prominent Uranus-Pluto symbolism and their Scorpio Moons (same degree).

In Beethoven’s Chart we see a most potent mundo Uranus-Pluto square with Uranus 1,57 cnj Asc and Pluto 1,39 cnj MC.

In Mozart’s Chart we see both Eclipto and Mundo Uranus partile cnj Dsc, with his Scorpio Moon partile cnj Pluto.

If there is one Planet in our System which confers originality and genius it is Uranus. Ebertin says about the Psychological Correspondences for Uranus:

Independent actions and ideas, enthusiasm for everything that is new or modern, agility or motility, great powers of perception, intuition allied with objective judgement, a sense of rhythm.

Sociological Correspondences:

Reformers, inventors, technicians, Rebels and revolutionists.

Ebertin says about Sociological Correspondences for Pluto:

Persons who can be said to exercise a magical influence over the masses.

Statistical studies have been offered for the lights of Freemasons to be in Scorpio, but I can’t remember who conducted this research, so this mat be completely immaterial.

[By Jove]

by Jim Eshelman on Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:45 pm
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By Jove wrote:
I want to see what we can find in their natal charts that points to their creative similarities and differences.

The biggest difference that we can see is in their Sun-signs. Mozart was a Capricorn and Beethoven a Sagittarius. These are starkly different types. (They shared a Moon-sign, Scorpio.)

Other comparison is difficult because we have no reliable time for Beethoven. I have several charts for him, nearly half a day apart. Various astrologers have given times without any sources. Edward Lyndoe gave 3:40 AM, another astrologer quoted a German astrology magazine (which, in turn, gave no source), my old friend Bob Jansky had half an hour after Lyndoe (given to seconds, so probably a rectification), my other old friend Marion March, had 1 PM (no source), my other old friend Noel Tyl then rectified this to a time two hours shifted. A biographer points out that maybe even the date of birth is in question (it could have been the day before, which, however, leave the Scorpio Moon intact).

So we have a birth time on Beethoven accurate to the nearest 48 hours.

Going with the traditional December 16 date, we at least can pin down a Sun-Mercury conjunction opposite Mars, surely the essence of his creativity (which, stylistically, then cam e out in a Sagittarian way: He was the definitive grand, proud maestro, the template for almost every movie stereotype of a conductor.)

Mozart (the "wild & crazy bad boy" Capricorn) is most marked by his Moon-Pluto 0°02' conjunction and the angular Uranus. He also has a close Sun-Mercury conjunction (partile), and it opposes Neptune.

So the main distinctions we have are: the Capricorn with his Sun-Mercury opposite Neptune (plus Moon-Pluto and angular Uranus) and the Sagittarius with his Sun-Mercury opposite Mars.

Just off the top of my head, simplistic as it is: I think of Beethoven most for his highbrow bludgeoning power, and Mozart most for his surrealism which managed to be unpredictable even though adhering to technical formalism.

For one both were difficult and controversial artists for their time.

Yes. Genius has the tendency to be difficult and controversial. I think the Scorpio Moons got them in a lot of trouble

But unlike Mozart, Beethoven was more committed to radically changing and expanding the form. He also worked to consciously change the very definition of what music was and what being an artist meant. Mozart hinted at such changes, but Beethoven consciously sought to make a new image for music.

This is a fascinating observation. From the charts, I think I can say the same thing differently: Notice that it mattered to Beethoven what "the form" was - it was important to him to alter the paradigm. Mozart simply violated it. Mozart's chart is far less formal. Beethoven, by your description especially, was expressing the Sagittarian traits of investment in history and its views, defining the paradigm of his time, obsession with how the rule-book looked. Mozart was interested in the rule book only enough to survive and, even then, he blithely showed repeatedly how one could almost ignore it while following it.

Listen to Salieri's sonatas after listening to Mozart's sonatas. Superficially, because of the forms of the day, they superficially sound the same. The difference is that Salieri has no genius shine through. Then listen to Handel's Messiah followed by Mozart's rewrite of it in German. Handel did have genius, and the differences aren't so pronounced, but, over the course of the whole work, you can see Mozart's playfulness irrepressibly come through atop a piece he obviously respected and adored.

For these reasons both Mozart's and Beethoven's music I would describe as "serpentine", which is a description I think perfectly fits Berlioz and Liszt too, who both did similar deeds to music.

Ah, you're pulling the Scorpio Moon list. Good job. But I think you're forcing it a bit. Nonetheless, it's a worthy comparison.

They are all marked by power, for example.

Beethoven in particular creates resurrection machines, music of death, rebirth, and immortality. The most noticeable example is his third symphony "Eroica" and ninth symphony.

Yes, but those are classical religious themes. They are very Sagittarian in that sense, in contrast to the almost pagan elements of Mozart. Beethoven was the bishop, Mozart the druid high priest.

[By Jove]

by Jim Eshelman on Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:38 pm
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By Jove wrote
What's the astrological difference between a genius and non-genius [regarding Salieri's natal chart]? Can it be seen in a natal chart? Here is Salieri's chart for comparison.

I don't know that it always can be seen, certainly not be a formula. The charts that come to mind tend to be more solar driven, more Uranus driven... but that's not universal or a formula. There is something exceptional and "hurling out of the statistical norm."

On Salieri... first, you have a typo in his birth time. It was 10 PM (22:00), not 12:00. Highlights of his chart: He was a Leo-Aquarius with Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune foreground. Saturn and Neptune are in close mundane square (paran) on the angles, while Jupiter and Saturn are equidistant either side, giving a Jupiter/Saturn quality. His main aspects are a triple Sun-Mercury-Mars conjunction opposite Uranus.

One would expect some genius here. The Aquarius Moon and the Uranus oppositions are certainly indicative. His creativity level alone is shown by the importance of the Mercury-Mars conjunction, and Uranus tends to knock that a bit out of the park. But Saturn closely squares them, and the angularities imply depression, various kinds of difficulties, and strong streak of orthodoxy. I think (from the chart) that the genius was there potentially and that life and other psychological tendencies kept it from being actualized. I mentioned him in part because he was among the greater composers of his time and place. I'd have to say, though, that this Leo with Jupiter rising and the struggling Saturn coming in plus the Saturn-Neptune pattern on the angles left him too impressed with the court and stature and pleasing, and inclined to fall too short of his own expectations. Genius rarely is as well-behaved as this chart.

Thanks for alerting me to the existence of the chart.