Retrogradation

[sotonye]

Retrograde isn’t given much weight here but more and more, as time goes on, I suspect it’s a much bigger piece of the puzzle than we think. Just anecdotally it seems that when transiting planets go retrograde, their normal themes don’t go so well. Mercury is presently retrograde and for the past 6 years I’ve noticed a few things happen during this period without fail. The first of which is that communication resumes with those from the past, either you reach out to them or they reach out to you, and I’m sure many in the forum have had resumption of some previous relationship occur in the past few weeks. Secondly, communication in ongoing relationships becomes a bit shaky, strained, things don’t flow as well as they would otherwise. These themes happen invariably and I don’t know how trends in our lives being disrupted by retrogradation wouldn’t also alter the way retrograde planets behave in a natal chart. Ive noticed some patterns over the years with respect to retrograde motion of other planets, but I have been watching Mercury the longest and so I have a better feel for its retrograde behavior than the others. At any rate, I believe retrograde planets in the natal do not operate well and that this is seen most clearly when the planets are angular. Since I don’t know enough people with an angular and retrograde planet, I don’t have enough data to support my suspicions besides that transiting planets do not function as expected when retrograde. What got me thinking about it is how basically I have felt extremely unlucky in my life despite the overwhelming presence of Jupiter, my health has failed constantly as you’ve all seen from my constant posts about it and nothing I’ve tried has worked out, which isn’t what my chart says, and so something has to be missing

[Jim Eshelman]

There is an earlier post on retrogradation under Planets, here:
https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=484

I'm moving this thread there.

[Jim Eshelman]

What got me thinking about it is how basically I have felt extremely unlucky in my life despite the overwhelming presence of Jupiter, my health has failed constantly as you’ve all seen from my constant posts about it and nothing I’ve tried has worked out, which isn’t what my chart says, and so something has to be missing

To explore these observations...

Jupiter is retrograde more than a third of the time. Is "unlucky" (or something like that) the characteristic manifestation of Jupiter for more or less a third of the people in the world? (Including 100% of all people with a Sun-Jupiter opposition?)

What specific health connection do you see with this Jupiter symbolism?

In your case BTW, if we were to accept that there is some reversed or disrupted or derailed Jupiter - I'm not sure that characterization is fair, but I'll run with your line of discussion for the moment - I'd be more inclined to related it to your partile Jupiter-Pluto conjunction almost exactly on an angle.

[sotonye]

To explore these observations...

Jupiter is retrograde more than a third of the time. Is "unlucky" (or something like that) the characteristic manifestation of Jupiter for more or less a third of the people in the world? (Including 100% of all people with a Sun-Jupiter opposition?)

Since Jupiter isn’t angular for most of them, I’ll say no. I don’t think what I’m observing becomes apparent unless a planet is foreground

What specific health connection do you see with this Jupiter symbolism?

Heart issues and subsequent issues with breathing

In your case BTW, if we were to accept that there is some reversed or disrupted or derailed Jupiter - I'm not sure that characterization is fair, but I'll run with your line of discussion for the moment - I'd be more inclined to related it to your partile Jupiter-Pluto conjunction almost exactly on an angle.

I thought about Jupiter-Pluto, but both my dad and brother have it exact and have much better health than I do, so I’m unsure about this one

[Jim Eshelman]

One big gap I see in the last post is that, in health matters, Jupiter has no relationship to breathing. It's connected to the alimentary system, to building up and assimilation, and with a specific relationship to the liver. If everything else you are saying about how this functions were true, these are the areas that would show the health vulnerability.

(For a different articulation of this, Ebertin lists "The organ, the blood. The function of nutrition, corpulence. - The live, the gall. - The climacteric years.")

Additionally, it isn't foreground planets most of the time that show as health problems. I qualify this because there re exceptions, especially when there aren't significant strong background aspects; or foreground planets can have a broader health impact as when a closely angular Saturn shows a heavily restricted life, without particularly saying why (leaving that to other planets). But overall it;s not a foreground matter but, rather, factors that are strong in the character and denied expression, so they pathologize.

I know you've mentioned your health failing in general, but I don't remember if you've described exactly what the problem is. Do you have asthma? Or just a struggle with breath (and has cardiac been ruled out)? Or...?

I'm not seeing anything in your chart (none of the usual medical astrology factors() that points to a breathing difficulty per se, but we'd at least expect it to be planets or signs related to breathing. I could name some possible chart connections, but none of them are squarely on. E.g., Mercury-Pluto, despite the fact that it is angular, at least has acceptable planet symbolism. Depending on the type breathing difficulty, Neptune might first draw our attention, especially for asthma, and it does have a background hard aspect though not a very close one; and most interesting where Neptune is concerned, Ne = Sa/Pl = Me/Sa (so that, if Neptune were identified as the culprit, it has close symbolism related to hardship and air-restriction). Or background Sun is consistent with impaired general vitality. Or there could be a primarily biochemical, hormonal issue that is the real underlying problem and only manifests outwardly with breathing symptoms (not sure what that would be). Or...

But this is mostly shooting in the dark without knowing the exact condition. My main point is Jupiter is one of the few planets devoid of any connection to breathing per se. You started this thread saying you think when planets are retrograde their "normal theme don't go so well," but Jupiter's "normal themes" have nothing to do with breathing.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Heart issues and subsequent issues with breathing

You mean congestive heart failure, or something else? CHF is often a valve problem in younger people.
Or is it something else?

I think you need to be clearer about what the problem is if you want help understanding it through astrology.

BTW, if your father and brothers have Jupiter Pluto closer in aspect and they are healthier, is their Jup Plu as angular as yours?

[Jim Eshelman]

Heart issues and subsequent issues with breathing

Apologies. I read this as "health issues and..." etc., instead of heart, so you did give the information I was asking about.

This would mean that the issue isn't a breathing issue at all (except as a symptom), but primarily a heart issue. We'd look mostly at your Sun. (I could see Moon-Jupiter involved, even though angular, in the sense or fluid congestion, but that's theoretical. The cases I've actually seen over the years are more directly shown by Sun, either in the natal chart or by transits it's undergoing.)

Your Sun is background - in the right place to have a health impact - but has no strong aspects to create the usual health problem tension. It's only significant midpoint is Ne/Pl, which has some interesting features about it but not necessarily a square hit.

Possible exception to "Sun has no strong aspects": We don't yet know what effect, if any, the planet Sedna has. Your Sedna is 18°41' Aries, a little more than a degree from your Sun, meaning that you do have one very strong Sun hard-aspect in the immediate background. (I mention this more as a note to possible future understanding of Sedna than anything else.)

[sotonye]

One big gap I see in the last post is that, in health matters, Jupiter has no relationship to breathing. It's connected to the alimentary system, to building up and assimilation, and with a specific relationship to the liver. If everything else you are saying about how this functions were true, these are the areas that would show the health vulnerability.

I thought Sagittarius had some association with the lungs? If not, what you’re describing sounds more fitting to what I’ve been experiencing. Almost all of my heart and subsequent breathing problems have been caused by inability to eat certain foods now like dairy or fish, or really anything besides chicken and fruit. I never really considered this an alimentary problem, just a problem with my heart, that it can’t handle what my body is taking in, but I guess more fundamentally it would be and I wish I could just eat what I want to. More broadly, apart from the heart issues, I just almost constantly have some random health problem pop up every few days that just makes me really unhappy, and this is also partly why I think it’s a Jupiter problem, my joy and optimism are nonexistent. We would not expect any problems really at all with a Jupiter as strong as mine, being exactly on an angle at 0°20’, exactly opposite a luminary at 0°31’, and closely aspected by Venus at 1°17’, and I don’t think a Jupiter-Pluto conjunction would throw a wrench in this other positive symbolism, maybe it could cause some problems, but those problems shouldn’t be the whole story. Something just seems wrong with Jupiter itself, not doing it’s job as the planet of joy and optimism, if I could describe an average week to you you’d probably think I’m the least lucky guy who ever lived, I try not to say anything anymore about it or do anything about it because I’ve given up and hope a lot of the time that my heart just finally stops working

[sotonye]

I just have a hard time considering other factors besides Jupiter given how enormously powerful it is, if there were some deadly indicator in my natal we would expect Jupiter to be steeply mitigating, this is what I’ve seen when it functions normally in the charts of others, they might have some life altering issue at some point but they just recover despite how unlikely that seemed and go on to live a mostly healthy life. Even if say Mercury-Pluto were enormously harsh, we wouldn’t expect things to be so bad I don’t think with such a generous helping of the great benefic, but things are bad and I have to miss work frequently because of this, can’t participate fully in my life

[Jim Eshelman]

I thought Sagittarius had some association with the lungs?

Sagittarius, yes, but not Jupiter.

Why isn't this transferable? My best answer is that it isn't. You can't make that kind of leap, otherwise you will (for example) have Jupiter "ruling" arrows. The body zones are laid out mostly head-to-toe wrapped around the zodiac and don't necessarily have any link to the other sign attributes. (You can argue that Mercury is reasonably related to the feet, but that's about it.)

In fact, the Tropical attribution of body parts to signs makes more sense (Aries = head instead of Libra = head), which would make Mercury related to lungs via Gemini. I can make up a reason why this is so but can't say we know enough about medical astrology to say for sure. (The reason I would make up - that I think is the actual reason if there is a reason - is that medical effects have to do with suppression of a principle or something similar: Just as strong background aspects are more likely to produce health problems than foreground, so does the "suppressed" characteristic of a planet often register as health problems. Were this so, then the Leo-Aquarius axis relationship to heart problems would show most in the un-solar, or suppressed-solar, end of the polarity, Aquarius; similarly, the Gemini-Sagittarius relationship to upper chest region which includes bronchii and lungs would be in the un-Mercury or suppressed Mercury end of the polarity, Sagittarius. Or something like that )

If not, what you’re describing sounds more fitting to what I’ve been experiencing. Almost all of my heart and subsequent breathing problems have been caused by inability to eat certain foods now like dairy or fish, or really anything besides chicken and fruit. I never really considered this an alimentary problem, just a problem with my heart, that it can’t handle what my body is taking in, but I guess more fundamentally it would be and I wish I could just eat what I want to.

"I wish I could just eat what I want" is indeed a healthy expression of Mon in Taurus closely opposite Jupiter across the horizon, both aspected by Venus in Pisces

As for a health issue from it, yes, in the absence of acute background aspects signalling the major health problems, I've seen foreground aspects show as strong themes. There is a lot of "nutrient assimilation" and "hormone balance" stuff in your chart - I keep coming back to hormone balance as the most consistent theme - and with an acutely angular Mercury one always expects allergies (aside from other "nervousness" expressions).

I'm not going to suggest a particular diet, especially because the very things you can't eat are the core of what I think is healthiest for most people. (I eat anything very high fat, with a lot of focus on dairy sources and other foods naturally high in oils and oil-soluble nutrients, but essentially no carbohydrates at all. It has the advantage of being very low on inflammation.) I'm quite convinced that the healthiest diets for almost everyone will not mix carbs and fats very much - either go high carb and negligible fat or high fat and negligible carb, because it is the mixing of the two that causes a lot of problems. (One is usually more tolerant when young.)

In any case, I think finding a nutrition professional you trust getting checked for allergic reactions would be good ideas.

More broadly, apart from the heart issues, I just almost constantly have some random health problem pop up every few days that just makes me really unhappy, and this is also partly why I think it’s a Jupiter problem, my joy and optimism are nonexistent.

Except that's not how Jupiter works (so, of course, you want to flip it upside down because it's retrograde even though a third of people in the world have it retrograde). One could as easily say (and it would match what we know of Jupiter better) that your strong, well-aspected Jupiter gives you a higher expectation that you're going to feel good and happy, so you feel more acutely the downside of not being that way. (Jupiter and Venus types are best equipped to handle life when things go really well. Someone with Saturn angular would be more to shrug and say, "Yeah, feeling crappy todayk, some ol' same ol'" and go on.

What you are describing, though, is being generally unhealthy. When a lot of random health things pop up frequently, your whole system is disturbed and out of balance. This could easily be hormonal. It could easily be a diet that keeps having this psychotropic effect. It could be a lot of things. For something that general, what probably works best not to focus on the individual problems so much as generally getting healthier, with all the boring recommendations like eat well, exercise, work on psychological and practical balance of things in your life, etc.

In fact, for something that much out of balance that your body is constantly compensating for your condition by producing a new, different imbalance, I'd recommend you find a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner - between acupuncture, herbs, etc., their approach is just to bring the overall body and psyche balance back. They also have diagnostic methods Western medicine ignores which, however, are unintrusive and, in my experience, lead to restoring balance in a short while.

We would not expect any problems really at all with a Jupiter as strong as mine, being exactly on an angle at 0°20’, exactly opposite a luminary at 0°31’, and closely aspected by Venus at 1°17’, and I don’t think a Jupiter-Pluto conjunction would throw a wrench in this other positive symbolism

Strong Jupiter doesn't mean a gifted life. It means a psyche best suited to a gifted life. This often brings a lot of success because of the natural bent of the psyche, but it also means that you don't deal with tough stuff very well. (You're not made to be tough. You'd be happiest as a pampered aristocrat, unlike Mars-Saturn types who couldn't tolerate that kind of life very well.) I mentioned the Jupiter-Pluto not so much as an affliction as of a disruption or "agent of the irregular." You seemed to be looking for something that said that your Jupiter doesn't work the same as everybody else's, that something was making it "not operate quite like Jupiter." This is exactly the sort of thing Pluto does, making a planet operate outside normal expectations, as extreme all-or-nothing. One well-known expression is that success and prosperity fluctuate (I suppose one could add "overall happiness" to that). When Pluto transits natal Jupiter, it signals various kinds of shifts and irregularities in one's Jupiter themes. -- Anyway, it was just a thought, mostly my looking for what was already known about your chart that would produce the kind of effects you were generalizing and wanting to attribute to retrogradation.

BTW, if your health problems manifest through foreground rather than background factors, there is absolutely no better expression of the diet and other legitimate Jupiter themed problems than the partile Jupiter-Pluto and close Moon-Pluto mundane aspects.

Something just seems wrong with Jupiter itself, not doing it’s job as the planet of joy and optimism, if I could describe an average week to you you’d probably think I’m the least lucky guy who ever lived, I try not to say anything anymore about it or do anything about it because I’ve given up and hope a lot of the time that my heart just finally stops working

So... in some large consistent ways you see your life as that of "the luckiest guy who ever lived," and in other ways you see your life as the opposite? (Is this in ways other than the obviously frustrating and demoralizing health issues?)

[Jim Eshelman]

I just have a hard time considering other factors besides Jupiter given how enormously powerful it is

Well, that;'s a problem. Yes, it's a big deal in your chart but hardly the only big deal. Your Pluto is almost as strong, and you simply can't distinguish the operation of Jupiter from the operation of Pluto in your chart. (One could argue that, as your Sun-sign ruler, and being only 1°02' from an angle and 214' from opposite Moon, Pluto is even stronger than Jupiter.)

Also, besides looking at what's strongest, you have to look at what's weakest. Having your Sun in the immediate background and unaspected is as important as the strength of your Jupiter, for example.

if there were some deadly indicator in my natal we would expect Jupiter to be steeply mitigating, this is what I’ve seen when it functions normally in the charts of others, they might have some life altering issue at some point but they just recover despite how unlikely that seemed and go on to live a mostly healthy life.

Generally true (IMO a little overstated, but generally true). People whose charts are mostly dominated by malefics are more likely for this to happen than people whose charts have benefics strongest.

You've gotten me intrigued, though, with what you said in the last post. You seem to sincerely feel you're getting a bad deal on some things AND you seem to sincerely feel that your life, in an ongoing way, looks like you're the luckiest guy alive. I'd like to understand that view more in sorting out hos your Jupiter is operating.

[Jim Eshelman]

Just some notes to put in perspective each of your planets. The way to get the basic "state" of each of the needs clusters in your psyche:

What can we say about your Moon?
Exalted in Taurus, closely foreground (1°04' from Asc), aspecting
Jupiter (partile, hard, foreground: 0°31')
Pluto (close, hard, foreground: 2°14')
Venus (partile, soft: 0°46')
Rules your Mars sign
If houses are valid, expresses through 1st house

What can we say about your Sun?
Exalted in Aries, background (6°31' from 12th cusp), unaspected.
If houses are valid, expresses through 12th house

What can we say about your Mercury?
In Taurus, 0°13' from Eastpoint, aspecting
Pluto (partile, hard, angular: 0°16')
Uranus (partile, soft: 0°29')
Neptune (moderate, soft: 4°26')
If houses are valid, expresses through 12th house

What can we say about your Venus?
Exalted in Pisces, background, aspecting
Moon (partile, soft: 0°46')
Jupiter (close, soft: 1°18')
Rules your Moon sign
If houses are valid, expresses through 11th house

What can we say about your Mars?
Fall in Cancer, foreground (5°35' from IC), aspecting
Pluto (moderate, hard, foreground: 4°25')
Jupiter (moderate, hard, foreground: 5°14')
Secondary ruler of your Sun sign
If houses are valid, expresses through 3rd house

What can we say about your Jupiter?
In Scorpio, closely foreground (0°21' from Dsc), aspecting
Moon (partile, hard, foreground: 0°31')
Pluto (partile, hard, foreground: 0°49')
Venus (close, soft: 1°18')
Uranus (moderate, hard: 1°33' ssq)
Mars (moderate, hard, foreground: 5°14')
If houses re valid, expresses through 7th house

What can we say about your Saturn?
Home (?) in Aquarius, middleground, aspecting
Neptune (moderate, soft, 4°02')
If houses are valid, expresses through 11th house

What can we say about your Uranus?
In Capricorn, background, aspecting
Mercury (partile, soft: 0°29')
Pluto (partile, soft: 0°45')
Jupiter (moderate, hard: 1°33' sq)
Neptune (moderate, hard, background: 4°56')
If houses are valid, expresses through 8th house

What can we say about your Neptune?
In Capricorn, background, aspecting
Saturn (moderate, soft: 4°02')
Pluto (moderate, soft: 4°10')
Mercury (moderate, soft: 4°26')
Uranus (moderate, hard, background: 4°56')
If houses are valid, expresses through 8th house

What can we say about your Pluto?
In Scorpio, closely foreground (1°10' from Dsc), aspecting
Mercury (close, hard, angular: 0°16')
Jupiter (close, hard, foreground: 0°49')
Moon (close, hard, foreground: 2°14')
Uranus (close, soft: 0°45')
Neptune (moderate, soft: 4°10')
Mars (moderate, hard, foreground: 4°26')
Rules your Sun-sign.
If houses are valid, expresses through blend of 6th/7th houses

[sotonye]

In fact, for something that much out of balance that your body is constantly compensating for your condition by producing a new, different imbalance, I'd recommend you find a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner - between acupuncture, herbs, etc., their approach is just to bring the overall body and psyche balance back. They also have diagnostic methods Western medicine ignores which, however, are unintrusive and, in my experience, lead to restoring balance in a short while.

Mr. E, you hit the nail on the head here, this was my thinking several months ago. I kept trying to fix my health issues in piecemeal and figured that to really get my desired result I’d have to take a more complete approach, and so I took up the Chinese practice of chi gong to great benefit to myself and those around me. Almost all of my health issues improved a bit but I found that, for whatever reason, and still to this day, vital energy was not flowing on the right half of my entire body and that this is probably my health to be less robust than it would be. Even so I improved, things got better, but then any progress I made would randomly reverse, the trend of some random health issue popping up continued unabated as if I had not done anything to prevent this, and so i feel unlucky and cursed.

Strong Jupiter doesn't mean a gifted life. It means a psyche best suited to a gifted life. This often brings a lot of success because of the natural bent of the psyche, but it also means that you don't deal with tough stuff very well. (You're not made to be tough. You'd be happiest as a pampered aristocrat, unlike Mars-Saturn types who couldn't tolerate that kind of life very well.) I mentioned the Jupiter-Pluto not so much as an affliction as of a disruption or "agent of the irregular." You seemed to be looking for something that said that your Jupiter doesn't work the same as everybody else's, that something was making it "not operate quite like Jupiter." This is exactly the sort of thing Pluto does, making a planet operate outside normal expectations, as extreme all-or-nothing. One well-known expression is that success and prosperity fluctuate (I suppose one could add "overall happiness" to that). When Pluto transits natal Jupiter, it signals various kinds of shifts and irregularities in one's Jupiter themes. -- Anyway, it was just a thought, mostly my looking for what was already known about your chart that would produce the kind of effects you were generalizing and wanting to attribute to retrogradation.

BTW, if your health problems manifest through foreground rather than background factors, there is absolutely no better expression of the diet and other legitimate Jupiter themed problems than the partile Jupiter-Pluto and close Moon-Pluto mundane aspects.

Moon-Pluto sounds like a likely suspect and I think you wrote that it’s associated with health anomalies and that’s what my circumstance feels like, and also it does follow that Pluto would disrupt the normal operation of my Jupiter, but could these two aspects completely dominate my life while Moon-Jupiter exists along with them?

So... in some large consistent ways you see your life as that of "the luckiest guy who ever lived," and in other ways you see your life as the opposite? (Is this in ways other than the obviously frustrating and demoralizing health issues?)

Oh no I don’t see myself as lucky, I see myself as explicitly unlucky in almost all areas in life, things generally don’t go well for me

[sotonye]

Well, that;'s a problem. Yes, it's a big deal in your chart but hardly the only big deal. Your Pluto is almost as strong, and you simply can't distinguish the operation of Jupiter from the operation of Pluto in your chart. (One could argue that, as your Sun-sign ruler, and being only 1°02' from an angle and 214' from opposite Moon, Pluto is even stronger than Jupiter.)

Could what I’m experiencing be an effect of Pluto? I’ve thought about it, health issues keep me to myself, cause me to spend a lot of time alone instead of participating, they discourage me from being social. But I’m not sure if Pluto causing health problems on its own is something we’ve ever seen before

Also, besides looking at what's strongest, you have to look at what's weakest. Having your Sun in the immediate background and unaspected is as important as the strength of your Jupiter, for example.

I have considered the Sun angle, but most people I know have Sun in the background and afflicted

Generally true (IMO a little overstated, but generally true). People whose charts are mostly dominated by malefics are more likely for this to happen than people whose charts have benefics strongest.

You've gotten me intrigued, though, with what you said in the last post. You seem to sincerely feel you're getting a bad deal on some things AND you seem to sincerely feel that your life, in an ongoing way, looks like you're the luckiest guy alive. I'd like to understand that view more in sorting out hos your Jupiter is operating.

If I said I feel like the luckiest guy alive that must’ve been a typo, I have never felt lucky before and generally feel cursed

[SteveS]

Sotonye wrote:

If I said I feel like the luckiest guy alive that must’ve been a typo, I have never felt lucky before and generally feel cursed

Sotonye, in my 38 years of seriously studying systems of Astrology, one of the best methods I have studied for peering into the layers of one's psyche/life, are Midpoints. IMO, the most important midpoints are direct midpoints involving our natal angles. I can certainly understand why you may be somewhat disappointed with your life by starring down that benefic Moon-Jupiter 180 on your Natal Horizon and not feeling benefic influences; so IMO, I think it very important you astrologically understand and factor the direct midpoint in your Natal for Neptune/Node=Asc (0,28). Ebertin's tone for this midpoint reads:

Tendency to feel uncomfortable in the presence of other people, the misfortune to suffer from inhibitions. Experiencing deceit and untruthfulness from others, disappointment.

IMO, this most important direct midpoint in your Natal is a red-flag for managing your psyche/life to help prevent troubling incidents and “disappointments” in your life particularly “from others.” This direct midpoint (Nep/Node=Asc) to your Asc would certainly play an astrological life role to at least partly drown-out the benefic influences of Moon-Jupiter on your Asc. As a possible counter life measure, maybe endeavor to invest more of your conscious psyche energies into your own personal individuality instead of your expectations from “others,” which Ebertin seems to indicate sets you up for disappointments in life. I simply see this direct midpoint red flag as a strong natal factor for influences bringing you down and hurting your psyche which eventually will hurt your health. When we have strong Neptune influences from our Natal chart, it tends to weaken so many layers of our psyche/being.