Aspects in Mundo

[Zig]

Hi Gang,

I have been reading Ken bowsers book on Western sidereal astrology and was intrigued by the section on aspects in Mundo. Does any member know of any Mac astrology software that will calculate these aspects? Or any on line software that can? Do members of Solunars rate these aspects?

Thanks Newbie Steve

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I have both Apples and Microsoft operating systems. I have no preference of one over the other. It's all in the available software. I hate with passion the new "subscription" software.
t on
Anyway, I don't know of any decent astrological software for apple products. ALl the good software for Microsoft based systems costs more than it's actually worth unless you're doing a lot of charts. Solar FIre does charts in mundo and I'm sure others do.

I don't know of anything online that does in mundo calculations. Astro.com has the best on-line software and I have posted instructions for using it for Sidereal charts on this board a few times.

One thing you can do... use the astro maps on astro.com Be careful when switching back to regular charts and check your zodiac. They default to a fictitious one after you change from one chart type to another. THat said, look at the maps to see where planets might be near the angles and each other in Mundo.

[Mike V]

Hi Zig,

I have a Macbook and use a virtual machine to run Solar Fire in a virtual Windows 10 instance.

I wrote a step-by-step guide on that exact topic if you're interested:
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3355

Please note that if you're running Catalina, you will probably have to take a few additional steps due to the added security features; I still haven't updated so I'm not sure what you should expect there.
Solar Fire is, of course, super expensive.

I am also working on free web software that would calculate all of this. Things have been crazy lately, but I'm going to buckle back down and iron the rest of the code for that in the foreseeable future, so keep an eye out for that

[Zig]

Thank's all. I tried using a windows emulator on my Mac but it kept breaking me down and in the end I gave up! I'm really terrible with computer's hence the Mac its simple and intuitive. I have had it about 9 years now and its been excellent, when I had PC's they were always breaking down. Hopefully when your software is ready Mike I will be in.

Nobody answered in the affirmative on how useful they think in Mundo aspects are and wether they are worth using for interpretation purposes? Any feedback gang?

[Jim Eshelman]

My copy of Ken's book is in storage, so I can't consult it at the moment. Can you remind me... by "mundane aspects" was he talking about parans (which, in any case, I know Ken is a big fan of) or was he talking about aspects in the prime vertical?

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Ken has an article online here: https://www.westernsiderealastrology.co ... s-in-mundo
in which he says

Several terms in contemporary use are huddled under the umbrella of aspects in mundo: mundane conjunctions, squares and oppositions, parans, paranatellontai, mundane aspects and aspects in the mundane sphere. They all refer to that category of aspects which takes the Earth's equator as the point of reference, hence the Latin word mundo from mundus, that is, "the world." Accordingly, instead of celestial longitude, which is the argument for aspects in zodiaco, aspects in mundo are generally reckoned in right ascension expressed in time, or less often in degrees of arc without a zodiacal sign attached. Mundane aspects have fallen out of general use because they are regarded as too much of a bother to calculate from scratch, and right ascension has been omitted from most astrological ephemerides for decades. The only astrological ephemeris in print that gives right ascension as a tabular entry is The American Sidereal Ephemeris—no doubt because siderealists consider aspects in mundo the strongest class of aspects.

and then goes on to discuss how to calculate a speculum and Einstein's chart and then discusses Robert Hand's chart.

So I think he's only using RA parans and not using the Prime Vertical.
But I could be wrong.

[Jim Eshelman]

So the answer is complicated. Some of these things I think are most worthwhile, others are in some situations, and others... well, I don;t have the confidence in them I once did.

Here's the big problem: I don't know of ANY astrology software that does the correct job of precessing natal positions to a different epoch before extracting new equatorial coordinates. This is absolutely necessary for such things as transiting parans and some of the other things you might be thinking about. If this isn't done, you are getting tropical transits that become increasingly distorted on average 1° for every 72 years of life which means, no matter how useful they are, you don't have an easy way of computing them. (We have an Excel spreadsheet that does the work for some of these approaches.)

[Zig]

Sorry I'm hopeless on the technical astronomy of sidereal astrology.

The only understanding I have of aspects in mundo or is speculum a better word? Is based on Ken Bowsers book on Western Sidereal Astrology. (As per "Jupiter Sets at Dawn." recent Link.Thank you BTW )

What interested me was Ken's delineation of Albert Einstein chart as I had struggled to find this great scientist with in the chart. The relationship problems are clearly visible though. When Ken mentioned that in mundo Albert had his Mercury square Mars. I thought ahh there it is.

The other aspects I have just started researching are planets relationships in declination ie Parallel and contra Parallel's. Again most of you have a lot more experience than me....I would love to know your findings? Thanks for getting back to me.

[Jim Eshelman]

Interestingly, I also use Einstein's chart as one of my favorite examples and give his chart side-by-side with Bill Gates and Marie Curie in my book Sidereal Mundane Astrology.

When I say "mundane aspect," I usually mean aspects measured along the prime vertical. (This has proven strikingly important in mundane astrology work, and likely has some importance natally as well.) In this framework, Einstein, Gates, and Curie - who otherwise have nothing it shown their shared culturally-redefining technological genius are found to all have Mon-Uranus aspects! Einstein, for example, has Moon square Uranus 1°01'.

From your remarks,Ken appears to be using parans. As long as you remain in a given chart - say, examining a birth chart - there are software packages, such as Solar Fire, that can make this easier (at least in combination with a data sorter package like Excel that most people have). - The precession problem I mentioned above only comes into play with transits back to the natal. A paran (paranatellon), as used in modern astrology, is an aspect formed when two planets simultaneously come to an angle. Many of us have also experimented with what I call potential parans, which are planets so arranged that they will (at some point) come to an angle together, but aren't currently on an angle. I think these likely have importance primarily because I can see them operative in relocation astorlogy - if you move to a new geographic latitude, new themes emerge that often match new potential parans that are formed.Since they work this way, they probably also work in the natal chart itself, but the effect seems far inferior to that of standard ecliptical aspects.

I usually allow only a 1° orb for parans, though I can I can see an easy argument for stretching that to 2°. Checking Einsteins parans within 1°, we do indeed find Mercury-Mars. At Einstein's birth, Mars came to Descendant 0°26' different from the Sidereal Time when Mercury crossed Midheaven - a mundane square.

Einstein also had these natal parans within 1°: Mercury conjunct Saturn (0°18'), Moon square Venus (0°44'), and Mars square Pluto (0°01'!). - In comparison, he has the Mercury-Saturn conjunction ecliptically (1°03'), has a Mars-Pluto trine and Moon-Venus trine (both 2°), and no close Mercury-Mars aspect ecliptically. (I've always found it easy to accept Einstein's Mercury-Saturn conjunction - it totally shows the structure of his mind. I'd be pressed harder to accept that Mars and Saturn both aspected his Mercury. Such people usually stream vitriol, and often have dysfunctional minds from the weight of Mercury's affliction. YMMV.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Using my own birth chart as an example, at birth - for my birthplace - I had the following potential parans within 1°:

Jupiter-Uranus conj. 38'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 13'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 12'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 13'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 38'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 38'
Mars-Jupiter op. 37'
Mars-Uranus op. 49'
Mars-Saturn sq. 53'

Notice that there are four Jupiter-Uranus parans because they cross all four angles together (the rise together,culminate together, etc.) For those astrologers deeply concentrated on parans, this is an argument for why conjunctions and oppositions seem to be stronger aspects: There are multiple instances of them in a chart. My Mercury-Saturn conjunction (ecliptically about 2° wide) does show up - twice - because Mercury and Saturn are within 1° in right ascension, so they cross MC and IC together but do not rise or set within a degree of each other. (They rise 6°15', apart, or about 25 minutes different in time. They set 5°01' apart, or about 20 minutes of time.)

Do these fit me as well as or better than my ecliptical aspects? Well, there is no question the Jupiter-Uranus and Mercury-Saturn fit - they are close ecliptical aspects anyway. I also have always thought that the Mars-Jupiter and Mars-Uranus describe me very well, and, while they are opposite in the ecliptic also, they are wide - between 4° and 5°, which is a perfectly fine "second tier" orb AFAIC and I don't think it needs a paran to explain it further, so I will call this "undecided". That leaves only Mars square Saturn. I cringe to think I was born with a partile Mars-Saturn, but it might well be true. There was struggle and harshness in my birth environment and, in hindsight, I would say I was cruel (never would have thought so at the time - I was far less cruel than the environment, but it was innate in the culture). I had to grow up and get away from that part of the world to shake that. So... as a single example... I'm inclined to take that as correct.

My biggest problem with looking at aspects this way is that it misses so much. There are fearsomely important aspects that this doesn't catch and, both as an astrologer and as a consumer of astrology, I'd be left desperately dangling without them. That means that, if these parans are important, they are an addition for ecliptical aspects, not a replacement. If an addition, then we have to consider whether the undesirable complexity they add is worth it for what new information we get from them. (I say "undesirable" based on the premise that we want to forge our astrological approach to get maximum information from the fewest factors.)

[Jim Eshelman]

In contrast, here are the parans of my horoscope relocated to the city where I have lived my entire adulthood:

Jupiter-Uranus conj. 06'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 32'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 13'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 13'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 38'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 38'
Sun-Jupiter sq. 17'
Sun-Uranus sq. 51'
Jupiter-Neptune sq. 02'
Uranus-Neptune sq. 15'
Mercury-Mars sq. 18'
Saturn-Uranus sq. 50'

This adds quite a few new factors! Probably of greatest importance is that, for Los Angeles, my Jupiter-Uranus conjunction rises exactly when my Sun is on IC, i.e., I have Sun square Jupiter-Uranus. I am certain this reflects the greater success, luck, increased dignity of office and station, even a royal cast to roles I have played. In fact, having the star Regulus rising (0°16' from Asc for my home) and an acquired Sun square to Jupiter and Uranus gives a definite royalness to my destiny in this place that I have no reason to think would have been present otherwise (it certainly isn't shown in my birth chart otherwise).

Adding Neptune squares to Jupiter-Uranus makes sense for my life once I hit LA. Saturn-Uranus is OK enough but easily explained by other things. Mercury-Mars is meaningful in some ways and not a fit in others (and yes, LOL, I see I've painted myself into the same Mercury + Mars and Saturn corner I painted Einstein). I lose Mars-Saturn and Mars to Jupiter-Uranus backs out of paran orb (though I find it at least as strong in my character, so I think my assessment of the importance of the ecliptical aspect is correct).

This still misses a great deal, of course. But from a relocation chart, I don't expect a full character description. I do expect that from the birth chart, where I think these are insufficient. For relocation, I expect change in circumstances and perhaps of character, and the shifted parans do this pretty well.

[Zig]

You have given me a lot to think about. BTW I also have Mercury R conjunct Saturn in Sagi.

In astrology I feel the conjunction manifest's in my searching for the perfect and most accurate astrological system! I keep hoping for that moment when it all click's together and I can say that is it! LOL

There a lot of astrologers using so many different methodologies in chart interpretation all claiming theirs is the right one?

When I was younger I searched for a spiritual meaning to life...I tried Zen, Krishna, Allah etc The last place I looked was Christianity and there Christ found me. I'm hoping the same is going to happen with Western Sidereal Astrology! LOL

Thanks Jim you have been extremely helpful.

[Zig]

My apologies for banging about Mundo aspects (As per RA Bowser) I promise I will try and limit my posts after this one......honestly! I'm just like a kid with a new toy to play with.

One of my son's has given me his old PC which I have managed to get a version of Solar Fire on. (Which I had bought many years ago 10 years I think but shortly after that my PC died.)

I e-mailed Solar Fire and they suggested for mundo aspects go to the reports section, then tabs and choose Rise/Set times for working out mundo aspects.

Ken Bowser a couple of years go sent me my own mundo aspects as a very kind courtesy for me to try them out. As I didn't have Janus which he uses. I have compared them to the Solar fire results and they seemed fine to me and also with Albert Einstein chart to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

With the Janus software it gives sidereal times with Solar fire it reads like a normal clock? I think Ken said 4 minutes was equivalent to one degree? I have limited aspects in mundo to 2 degrees.

Please can anybody give me some feedback wether this makes sense?

Thanks

[Jim Eshelman]

With the Janus software it gives sidereal times with Solar fire it reads like a normal clock? I think Ken said 4 minutes was equivalent to one degree? I have limited aspects in mundo to 2 degrees.

There's n easier way to do it in Solar Fire, but it's a trick.

First of all, you can either have RAMC expressed in time format or degree format. I prefer the latter, since it;'s the same as we use for measuring every other kind of orbs. The four minutes of Sidereal Time (0:04:00) Ken mentioned is equal to 1°00' of arc. In Solar Fire, go to Preferences > Edit Settings > Misc and, under the Parans section, pick the format you want. (I prefer "Display as LST Angles" (Local Sidereal Time as an angle instead of as time). Pick whatever you want.

Then, with a chart open that you want to check, click the Reports button then scroll down to Star Parans. Normally this gives paran aspect of different fixed to stars to natal planets. However, if you switch the Orb field to 0°00' (just type a 0 and hit the tab key), voila! - all that stuff disappears and you have a list of the rise, culminate, set, and anticulminate RAMCs for every planet:

Nixon Parans.jpg

We're almost there! From this list alone you can visually scan for any contacts within 1° but there's a much easier way by opening Excel or another spreadsheet program. Click the Copy button on this report and paste into a new spreadsheet. You then "massage" it to give a nice format that has all of these sorted numerically listing the planet and angle. If you're comfortable with a spreadsheet, you can figure this out on your own - it takes under a minute - I'll give the steps below but please don't be put off by the tedium: It only looks tedious when written out, and it is WAY easier to do in practice.

Steps to scrunch the list: Once the above is pasted into a new spreadsheet, delete all the rows above the numbers you want (the top 9 rows) and everything below the Pluto line. Globally Find/Replace (Ctrol+H) the words "Parans to " {notice the space at the end} to nothing, which wipes out the unneeded words. Delete the second column (select the column and use Alt+E D) - you don't need it - but add a new blank column in front of each of the the last three columns of numbers (click in the empty column before each one and use Alt+I C). Copy the planet names from column A to the new columns D, G, and J. Then, fill in the blank columns remaining so that every row in B say Asc, each row in E says MC, for H Dsc, and for K IC.

At this point, you have a column of planet names, a column naming the angle, and a column with the RAMC for when the planet is on that angle; then this repeats three more times for the other four angles. (We're almost there!)

Then cut the last half - the last six columns - paste them in cell A11, i.e., at the bottom and in the first column. (You now have six columns.) Then, again, cut the last half - the last three columns - and paste them under the first three (if you are using 10 planets, this will be in A21).

You now have a single set of three columns listing planet name, angle name, and RAMC for when that planet is angular. One more step: You want to sort it. Click in column C, go to Data > Sort and sort by Column C. You're done!

Richard Nixon's final list (the one that started out with the several columns in the illustration above) turns out like this. (It's rather boring. The only items you'll find within 1° are the four Mercury-Mars conjunctions.)

Sun Dsc 005°13'
Nep Asc 011°55'
Ura Dsc 020°52'
Mon Dsc 040°58'
Sat MC 055°42'
Ven Dsc 058°03'
Plu MC 088°36'
Mar IC 089°43'
Mer IC 090°01'
Jup IC 091°49'
Sun IC 111°00'
Nep MC 116°36'
Ura IC 125°07'
Mon IC 143°44'
Ven IC 155°54'
Sat Dsc 158°00'
Plu Dsc 190°40'
Mer Asc 196°48'
Mar Asc 197°07'
Jup Asc 198°34'
Sun Asc 216°47'
Nep Dsc 221°17'
Ura Asc 229°21'
Sat IC 235°42'
Mon Asc 246°30'
Ven Asc 253°45'
Plu IC 268°36'
Mar MC 269°43'
Mer MC 270°01'
Jup MC 271°49'
Sun MC 291°00'
Nep IC 296°36'
Ura MC 305°07'
Sat Asc 313°24'
Mon MC 323°44'
Ven MC 335°54'
Mar Dsc 342°20'
Mer Dsc 343°14'
Jup Dsc 345°04'
Plu Asc 346°32'

For a less boring example, and as an exercise, repeat this after relocating his chart to Washington, DC where everything important we know about him occurred. Checking partile parans for that location, in addition to the three Mercury-Mars conjunctions (for Descendant they slip outside the 1° orb) you will find Saturn on MC as Venus sets: a 0°46' Venus-Saturn square.

[Jim Eshelman]

Another example: Donald Trump for birthplace in Queens, New York has the following parans at birth:

Sat Asc 005°55'
Nep IC 005°57'
Ven Asc 006°53'

Mon Dsc 328°48'
Mar IC 329°26'

In other words: Saturn-Neptune square (0°02'), Moon-Mars square (0°38'), Venus-Neptune square (0°56'), and Venus-Saturn conjunction (0°58'), as malicious and dishonest (one might actually say evil) a set of aspects as one could want.

Relocate him to Washington, DC - which isn't that far away, but shifts 2° in latitude - and it looks like the following instead (which makes me think Washington seemed quite surreal to him when he arrived):

Nep MC 185°57'
Ura Dsc 186°48'

Mar IC 329°26'
Mon Dsc 330°12'

That is: Moon square Mars 0°46' and Uranus square Neptune 0°51'.

[Zig]

Thanks so much Jim. I'm hopeless on computers to put it mildly. My son use's excel when the isolation period calms down I will get him over to sort it out.

[Zig]

Finally Jim ............Would you use only a 1 degree of arc or 4 minutes of sidereal time for aspects?

[Jim Eshelman]

For this kind of aspect, yes. (I can have a theoretical reason to allow 2° but in practice it doesn't appear to work.)

Remember, also, that I'm not saying this is valid. I'm saying that there are some really interesting examples of distinguishing a new location, which leads one to think that these are perhaps valid as supplemental details.

[SteveS]

Zig wrote and asked:

Nobody answered in the affirmative on how useful they think in Mundo aspects are and whether they are worth using for interpretation purposes? Any feedback gang?

IMO, these aspects are all about the measurement of pure strength (potency) in a chart. Mundane aspects (Parans) are simply more powerfully felt aspects.

I will offer my own personal opinions about 1: transiting parans, 2: hidden parans (potential) in a natal chart, and 3: mundane aspects in Sidereal Return Charts and Sidereal Mundane Astrology charts:

1: Transiting Parans. After experiencing transiting parans by moving myself to optimal gambling locations in the United States, there is no doubt in my mind a transiting paran is much more potent, event related, than the same transiting non paran aspect. For example: If I saw where transiting Mercury was partile (one degree or less) 90 my Natal Jupiter, given a choice for some serious gambling, I would much more prefer to locate myself to a location where the transiting Mercury would fall on an angle 90 my Natal Jupiter.

One of the best essays on Transiting Parans I have ever studied is found in Robert Hands book “Essays on Astrology,” Chapter 7 “A new approach to transits.” When I secured my first astrological program (Nova—old Dos Program) written by Robert Hand to compute transiting parans, I would spend many hours locating an optimum gambling location (time & place) in the US. IMO, transiting parans answers the old saying: “Being in the right place at the right time; or, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The same Principle of transiting Parans can be used for possible benefic locations for our Sidereal Solar Returns and Sidereal Lunar Returns.

2: Hidden Parans (Potential) in a Natal Chart. No doubt in my mind these are much more potent than a non-paran natal aspect. Why: Simply because we carry the imprint of our natal charts (its geometry—our individual circle) with us no matter where we are located, but the imprint of our natal geometries is much more potent at our natal locations. When we are born with a hidden natal paran (potential), everyday we will experience its influence much more as a stronger psychic imprint because this hidden potential paran will come to the paran natal angles everyday. This gives the Sidereal Astrologer a choice: Move from your natal location with a malefic potential natal paran, stay at your natal location if possible with your benefic potential natal paran, or move to a location with possible benefic potential natal parans.

For example: I was born with a partile 90 Sun-Uranus, obviously a very important natal aspect! But as a Sidereal Astrologer, I have come to recognize with my individualized psychic (being) this aspect is much more important (potent) with me still living close to my Natal location. Technically, Why? Because everyday of my being this Natal Square will form a Natural Paran due to the everyday rotation of the Earth. My Natal Sun will Rise and my Natal Uranus will Culminate simultaneous for a natural paran. Since my first Saturn Return, there has not been a single day in my life I have not had individual (Sun) thoughts about Astrology (Uranus). There is only one major natal aspect which explains this to my being as occurring on a daily basics: My hidden (potential) Natal Paran of Sun-Uranus!

3: Hidden Mundane aspects in a Natal, Return, Sidereal Mundane Astrology chart. Very important—not to be overlooked! Study Jim's teachings on this forum about these sorts of aspects, particularly the angular ones.

[Zig]

Thanks Steve and Jim.

[Jim Eshelman]

Zig, if you're still watching this thread: Happy birthday!

[Jim Eshelman]

Zig, in case you're still looking in... happy birthday!

[colleenm]

Hi Folks,
Just happened to stumble over this thread. Ken Bowser uses the Janus Software for calculating in mundo aspects. We created a video in 2020 on this topic. Here is the link: https://www.westernsiderealastrology.co ... ndoaspects

Colleen