Scorpio vs Sagittarius (combat vs war?)

[Soft Alpaca]

So lately reading through a lot of the older Sagittarius writings I'm seeing a huge emphasis on war. I was pondering then why was no Mars associated with the sign.

On thinking about it Scorpio idealizes combat and battle, quick sharp powerful mindless. Sagittarius idealizes War, this is compliance to the chain of command and the aim to win the long game (then falls short because they failed to realize that they were a pawn).

Not sure if that's quite what was being expressed however.

[Jim Eshelman]

Was it really about war? Or about bringing civilizationxand our culture toctue neighbors?

[Soft Alpaca]

Sure but there is a seemingly distinct pattern of rise and fall. Is this fall supposed to be a part of the Sagittarius motif?

[Danica]

Sure but there is a seemingly distinct pattern of rise and fall. Is this fall supposed to be a part of the Sagittarius motif?

Jupiter, the Cycles, the turning Wheel/s...

[Jim Eshelman]

Sure but there is a seemingly distinct pattern of rise and fall. Is this fall supposed to be a part of the Sagittarius motif?

I think I don't know what this means; that is, besides the obvious in nature that "what goes up must come down." Whatever rises to great heights is brought down, and many Sagittarian life stories go that way; but then, most life stories go that way: Few people end on their greatest note. It's the simplest lesson of the Tao: What was most lifted up is debased; what was most debased is lifted up. Sunrise; sunset.

The arrow, fired high into the sky, eventually falls to the earth. But that doesn't mean the falling is is part of what the arrow is about, exactly. It's just what happens next.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Scorpio fights. Sagittarius strategizes.
Scorpio is the foot soldier. Sagittarius is the captain.
Scorpio fights for his life and his buddies. Sagittarius fights for his cause or his leader's cause.
Scorpio fights because he sees a fight. Sagittarius fights because he gets something out of it. Maybe just glory, maybe something tangible.

I once knew a Scorpio sergeant whose Sagittarian second lieutenant read a map wrong but insisted he be driven across a river where he had decided the ford was. The sergeant tried explaining but was commanded to drive the jeep across the river where he was told to. So he did as he was told and drove the lieutenant in his jeep into the river, only stopping when the lieutenant was up to his neck. The captain (a Leo) asked which sergeant was that again and just shook his head and said Sarge, don't drown the Looies, OK? Got a yes sir and told the lieutenant to walk with him. I gather they had a discussion about listening to the men in his command when they told him he was making a mistake.
The corp of engineers got the jeep out of the river, but it was never the same.

[By Jove]

An interesting note: There may have been a depiction of Sagittarius even older than Pabilsag, that of a scorpion-tailed archer. Even still, Pabilsag has heavy "Scorpionic" features (gatekeeper of the underworld, ferrier of dead souls, omen of death and destruction).

Either way, there seems to have an association between Scorpio and Sagittarius from the very beginning of astrology itself. I wonder if it reflect similarities real-life Scorpios and Sagittarians may have with each other.

I wanted to devote my own thread to this, but a thread already exists.

[Jim Eshelman]

An interesting note: There may have been a depiction of Sagittarius even older than Pabilsag, that of a scorpion-tailed archer

That's not Sagittarius. That's Scorpio including the upper body of Ophiuchus. But yes, it does seem to verge on Sagittarius-like symbolism.

In images of the four fixed signs that show in various forms (including down through Christian gospel iconography) as the bull, lion, eagle, and man, the man is Scorpio (with Ophiuchus overlapping the last half); the eagle is Aquarius (with Aquila overlapping it). These are from the Babylonian boundary stones.

[Soft Alpaca]

I think this is where the mercantile side of Sag comes into play. The difference is in the why, i find that Scorpios can and will just fight to fight, where as the ambition of Sagittarius is fighting for an agenda almost always.

Within vedic systems of Nakshatra as well there is a darkness to the beginning of Sagittarius (Moola) ruled by the godess of death and the mother of Rakshasa (a highly ambitious highly skilled demon).

In Sagittarius i find that this battle shared from Ophichus gets displayed in the unwillingness to break conviction. In Sagittarius Moon especially there is this dark principle (why could be why many can be bigots and others basically live lives almost enslaved to a cause).

Also the galatic center very well could symbolize at least a place of omen, destruction and souls.

I really don't see most Sagittarius get as violent as i do, but i have a Capricorn Mars and heavy Uranus energy. Between that and the brief descriptions from Mercury+Venus in Scorpio almost every single line from Sun in Scorpio is wrote into my personality;
Requires freedom of movement & thought, to be unfettered.(Mercury in Scorpio aspect Cap Mars, Uranus+Sun) Willing to rebel, be outlandish. (Uranus Sun, Pluto-Moon) Sharp humor. (Mercury in Scorpio) Bold; moral courage; hard to intimidate.(Capricorn Mars, Leo Moon for bold) Non-disclosing, slow to show weaknesses; collects others' weaknesses.(Capricorn Mars, Scorpio Mercury). Pragmatic, not theoretical. (Leo Moon) Favors action (Capricorn Mars), abhors apathy(Pluto Moon). Phallic: Sexual (Capy Mars sq Scorpio Venus).

That being said i wont challenge what Jim thinks about Sagittarius, for the most part ive noticed im very different from other ones i meet for many reasons. For Sagittarius tribalism is key. In addition even within tropical users ive always had to defend myself from people who state i have "Scorpio" energy which they try to blame on my Venus (maybe i do have a bit of a stinger) but the difference is mine is well aimed and well hidden

My favorite image of Sagittarius is the one with 2 heads with wings, a giant phallus, a human body/chest, horse lower half and a scorpion+horse tail. I think that for me Scorpio is better suited by a Cobra, highly aggressive always willing to strike.

[By Jove]

An interesting note: There may have been a depiction of Sagittarius even older than Pabilsag, that of a scorpion-tailed archer

That's not Sagittarius. That's Scorpio including the upper body of Ophiuchus. But yes, it does seem to verge on Sagittarius-like symbolism.

In images of the four fixed signs that show in various forms (including down through Christian gospel iconography) as the bull, lion, eagle, and man, the man is Scorpio (with Ophiuchus overlapping the last half); the eagle is Aquarius (with Aquila overlapping it). These are from the Babylonian boundary stones.

I see. Interesting. Tropical astrology is fond of associating Scorpio with the eagle. That always made little sense to me. If anything, carrion birds belong to Scorpio. - Such birds are classically associated with Mars. Venomous snakes, boars, and hounds are also associated with Mars. - The lofty eagle naturally belongs to Jupiter and Sagittarius.

Would you have any idea where Pabilsag/Sagittarius got such a chimerical appearance? It had a dog head, a lion's body, wings, and a scorpion's tale. Not even Capricorn, a fish-goat, is that weird.

My favorite image of Sagittarius is the one with 2 heads with wings, a giant phallus, a human body/chest, horse lower half and a scorpion+horse tail. I think that for me Scorpio is better suited by a Cobra, highly aggressive always willing to strike.

It's my favorite image too. It's way cooler than the watered-down centaur. IMO Scorpio is best represented by Ophiuchus, at least in the highest "vibration", with the whole serpent-healer archetype.

[Soft Alpaca]

The ancient chimera man creature likeky dates back to ancient summer at least, if not further. The idea that man is improving from beast very likely may have once been that man is a beast or man is the most successful channeling his animal side. Each of the different traits also really hit home on Sagittarius. Horses and dog's are very tribal animals ones that we domesticated, the two tails and two heads represent the duality of Sagittarius. The wings represent flight. The large phallus represents dominance. Lastly and most importantly is the crown, which is the role Sagittarius has in society.

Whats funny is that if you overlay Marduk with Tiamat you get a very similar creature.

I also have to say about Capricorn, he is a much older creature, wrote in the stars long long ago. During Mesopotamia for sure. His image is very primordial, ancient, and ever lasting. We see this character influcing gods like, enki, pan, baphomet, and even modern day satan. The size of this actual creature likeky would have been huge (think the tail is sometimes rather more like the tail of a giant sea serpent)

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I see. Interesting. Tropical astrology is fond of associating Scorpio with the eagle. That always made little sense to me. If anything, carrion birds belong to Scorpio. - Such birds are classically associated with Mars. Venomous snakes, boars, and hounds are also associated with Mars. - The lofty eagle naturally belongs to Jupiter and Sagittarius.

Eagles are carrion birds. There are lots around here. Yes, they will hunt, especially geese and fish. But they also eat off dead things in the roads in preference to hunting. Or they scare hawks and owls and foxes off their catch.

[By Jove]

Eagles are carrion birds. There are lots around here. Yes, they will hunt, especially geese and fish. But they also eat off dead things in the roads in preference to hunting. Or they scare hawks and owls and foxes off their catch.

Eagles and hawks are indeed carrion birds, but eagles are rarely (if ever) associated with Mars. Birds associated with Mars are vultures, ravens, and hawks, all of which are carrion birds. Regarding owls, the barn owl and eagle owl in particular were associated with Mars while the the little owl was associated with Athena. Eagles, however, are regularly associated with Jupiter because they are "kingly" and "far-ranging" birds.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Under which dead culture? Greek? Roman? Babylonian? Egyptian?

I'm suggesting trying to bring as much symbolism as you two (and others) so often do is stretching metaphors a little too far. Sidereal astrology is observation based. You're dragging in symbols from dead cultures and not even saying which dead cultures you're referencing.

Jupiter and Sagittarius are alike in some ways. But they aren't the same thing. I've seen people here say they have a "Jupiter sun" when they have a Sagittarius sun. That's nonsense. Eagles may have been assigned to Jupiter in some cultures, but taking that assignation and trying to use it to define Sagittarius is going too far.

Jupiter, in Egyptian lore, was Osirus, or maybe Ammon-Ra.

Jupiter, besides thunder and lightening, has several falls of stones from the sky attributed to his displeasure. Stones, or hail? Since these occurred in volcanic regions, they could be either or both. We don't know. But very interesting for mundane work.

[Soft Alpaca]

This whole thread is based on why sone folks (i believe including Jim) see a mercantile side in some Sagittarius. Mind you I also have been specifically sighting sign relevant lore (as even today Sagittarius is still a Chimera as is Capricorn). Sagittarius is a culture based sign and Jove and I may have got carried away.

That being said lets try and get back on track.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

OK, but you know that a ram was sacrificed to Jupiter on the market days. They were 8 days apart, but called the nundinae because the market day was counted as the first day of the cycle. So if you equate Jupiter with Sagittarius it is mercantile.
That's included in a Tropical definition.

[Soft Alpaca]

Mercenary:(of a person or their behavior) primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ETHICS.

Yes I very much do:
Moon in SAGITTARIUS (Spoke: Jupiter)
Higher & higher (ambition, spiritual aspiration, flight). Optimism (adapting with positivism). Courteous, gracious, natural hosts. Seeks to impress (needs validation, approval). Devoted to ideals & values (political; nationalistic, tribal; loves history). Dramatic (actors). MERCENARY. Strong family ties.

I just changed the tense, i wasn't though referring to market, but doing things to make means.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

"Mercenary" doesn't include sacrificing ethics. It simply means doing something for hire rather than for fealty.
It's not unethical to expect to be paid for your work.

Lots of people would prefer if people would do things for free, but that doesn't make it unethical or immoral to ask to be paid a day's wage for a day's work and to refuse to work if you don't get it. Although lots of corporations want you to think otherwise.

Please don't buy into that crap. It's not nobler to starve, artist or not.

[Soft Alpaca]

I gave you the dictionary definition of mercenary...write to Oxford if you dont like it.

Sagittarius is very fulled by ambition more than any other sign, and the expense (not sacrifice, ie this is a weighed transaction. Ex: is it ok to beat the crap out of the kid bullying my sister?) of ethics is very much a Sagittarius idea. The difference between a mercenary and a freelancer or trades men is the moral behind the work. A freelance photographer is not {a} mercenary (though they could be)...

I am not caught up in big farma or corporate America, dont get me wrong ill support any ends to a means. You got to do what you got to do. Im saying Sagittarius is about exactly that.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I agree with you. Sagittarius is not a mercenary under that definition.
Oxford online merely says "a soldier who will fight for any country or group that offers payment." Nothing about ethics. Mercenaries and former mercenaries I know won't fight for any group that offers payment. They have to agree with the cause or at least be neutral toward it. I'm sure there are some who will fight for anybody.

[Soft Alpaca]

I took it from Oxford Laungues as an adjective not a noun... They aren't a mercenary if the cause doesn't give them profit. This even goes back to caste systems, merchants were considered lower in caste because they made their work off of other man.

All the fire signs are attached to monitory (value and expense driven, always looking for the worth of things) in some way shape or form.

[Jim Eshelman]

Having a job is important to all sign types. It doesn't single out Arlesa signs.

My main point in this thread is there is nothing intrinsically military about Sagittarius (though they do, of course, like shiny brass buttons, nice decorations, and a nice sharp cutting edge).

[Soft Alpaca]

Wasnt talking about in the work place Jim. Leo aims to be perfect, Sagittarius to be on top, and Aries to be successful. This can seen in everything from their relationships with people to why they get out of bed in the morning. Do be this kind of successful they look at things from a standpoint of value (ex: what is the value of this relationship im in?)

Also why is it do you think we are attracted to shiney weapons. (I think however my Leo and Capricorn also both appreciate objects that cut slash burn and bleed things).

[James Condor]

Scorpio is more personal and emotional deep inside. Not like showing emotions outside. Sagittarius is more objective and cares more about getting a fact right. My Scorpio neighbors first reaction is that she is right because her emotions are deep but her decision is based on her past and not what is really true. She says things blatantly non factual as if they are facts. Like- oh yeah I know where place is pointing in the wrong direction. And doesn’t care to be corrected to the real location .
Sag won’t let it go that someone has the facts wrong. Scorpio doesn’t care as much and cares more about the feeling tone

[Soft Alpaca]

As a part of the water trine i noticed theses signs are drawn to high emotional situations (what Jim calls drama in Pisces and Cancer is the same thing as Scprpios war or battle). Scorpios will spear down anything who opppses what they believe in i have seen this.

What i find ironic about Sagittarius always having to be right (or at least needing a correct answer) is that Mercury is part of the signs antithesis. So why do they drive towards the correct answers?

I think part of Sagittarius themes (attrition is a huge one) comes in part from the fact that the serpent barrer may not be 100% a part of Scorpio (i see it as the wall the separates the two). Also many Sagittarius have Venus/Mercury in Scorpio adding a little more of that {Ophichus}Scorpio into their personalities. If Ophichus is Mars+Jupiter (which makes far more sense than Saturn+Venus) then it makes perfect sense because these are the rulers of the constellations beside him.

My next question is (even if by using fixed stars alone) do people with luminaries at each of the merges (Aquila and Ophichus) actually display in a measurable manor traits that wouldn't be seen in someone with luminaries later on in the sign (earlier in the case of Scorpio). Or does it carry through the whole sign? {Clearly there is some connections between Scorpio and Sagittarius due to Ophichus verging on themes of both signs}

Ophichus Sagittarius traits:
Lucky
Myth building
High Society orientation
Ties with religion and scholars
Uneasy marriage and sexual demons

Scorpio traits:
Sharp mind
Unpopular views (Unorthodox)
Passionate
Uncaring of public opinion
Easily seduced

Charmer is another term that fits perfectly in the Jupiter+Mars connection.

[Jim Eshelman]

What i find ironic about Sagittarius always having to be right (or at least needing a correct answer) is that Mercury is part of the signs antithesis. So why do they drive towards the correct answers?

I'm not sure Sagittarius has to be "right," per se, but they love being the authority, the expert ("best in class" sort of thing), the bigwig, superiority being measured by expertise.

My next question is (even if by using fixed stars alone)

I think we need to be careful not to confuse sign-concepts with fixed stars, which commonly have little similarity to the signs they occupy.

This thread is getting pretty far-fetched. I may have to move it to the experimental / speculative zone.

[Soft Alpaca]

I should have moved in there to begin with Jim thats my bad. I was hinting at the use of fixed stars as an actual body to measure (because Ophichus isnt a sign).

[Jim Eshelman]

I should have moved in there to begin with Jim thats my bad. I was hinting at the use of fixed stars as an actual body to measure (because Ophichus isnt a sign).

The thing is, to the ancient Babylonians, Ophiuchus was just part of Scorpio - there wasn't a distinction. There is no other coherent astrological presence of Ophiuchus. (E.g., those who give significance to the stars don't treat them all the same, nor the space between them.)

I want to be clear that Sidereal astrology has nothing to do with the constellations as astronomers define them.

[Soft Alpaca]

So then where does the theme that ties the two come from? I do see some similarlites between the two sings in natives i meet (they mostly are distinguishable however).

Its almost like Scorpio is the war that Sagittarius profits off of. But then why the like of the military and combat (weapons too) (which is something ive noticed often in the myth building in Sagittarius's world)?

Its definitely not the love of violence (although I have met some)..

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Sagittarius loves the trappings of power. The military uniform with it's epaulettes and brass buttons and fancy hats. It loves the swords in their scabbards hanging from it's belts and those hanging on the walls. It loves the flags and salutes and marching music.
It doesn't love war or violence, although it loves to emote about both.

There is no theme that ties them together. One loves the noble ideas, and the other loves to fight.

I think this is pretty simple. Not something complicated or requiring deep thought.

[Soft Alpaca]

I guess its just me then, i find all that crap superficial. I wanted to be a sniper (I like blowing things heads off) but i have bad eye sight (astigmatism) that's why I didnt join the militarily.

I want my my sword sharp pointy and deadly. Every accomplishment I make is a tool to be used not to be polished and hung up. Unless the ribbon is something useful its just another peice of trash i have laying around.

[Jim Eshelman]

I want my my sword sharp pointy and deadly. Every accomplishment I make is a tool to be used not to be polished and hung up. Unless the ribbon is something useful its just another peice of trash i have laying around.

Sure. I mentioned above the Sagittarius likes sharp blades. That's a variation of the Arrow theme. I've long thought that this is why Sagittarius Moons are so common among sadistic mutilating murderers. (And there are some key military figures with Sag Moons - much more so than Sag Suns - which I think is a similar theme. Most of the famous ones, though, were more known for sadism and the show than for warring as such.)

So, Sagittarius Moons include Adolf Hitler, Adolf Eichmann, Joseph Goebbels, Ian Brady, Lee Harvey Oswald, Marc David Chapman, William Heirens, Sirhan Sirhan, Dennis Rader (BKT), Peter Kurten, James & Florence Maybrick, James Degorski, Rnnie & Reggie Kray,
and a number of generals such as Henri Petain, Ferdinand Foch, Jacques Leroy de Saint-Anaud, and George Washington.

For Sagittarius Suns, the list has a different feel, with only Hermann Goering, Ian Brady, Phil Spector, John Allen Muhammad, Lyle Menendez, nd Gen. Wesley Clark in my files.

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok so why? I see this as statically contradicting, if Sagittarius doesn't like violence then why are the moons so sadistic, are we underestimating the nature of the beast half of Sagittarius? Unfortunately i don't think "they like sharp and shiny things" is a good excuse for some of the kinds of murderous things Sagittarius can produce.

Is it perhaps as beasts Scorpio hunts for what they see as necessary and when the man is added (through Sagittarius) we add a creature that does things not out of survival, creatures that actively destroy the environment around them, that kill for show and trophy not for food?

[Jim Eshelman]

Ok so why? I see this as statically contradicting, if Sagittarius doesn't like violence then why are the moons so sadistic, are we underestimating the nature of the beast half of Sagittarius? Unfortunately i don't think "they like sharp and shiny things" is a good excuse for some of the kinds of murderous things Sagittarius can produce.

Sadism isn't about violence. It's not even about cruelty or harm. It's about dominance and erotic pleasure from witnessing pain.

BTW, I was coming back to this thread to add something. Though I listed a lot of murders above, it is still a much smaller number than Moon in Scorpio. In my collection of murderers' charts, the only statistically significant Moon signs were highs in Scorpio and Pisces. Scorpio does take more naturally to cruelty and harm, while Pisces (from the years I spent taking sexual surveys) is primarily about drama with a strong leaning to disguises and bondage.

Sagittarius is also very much about punishment. This is an acute, typically moralistic sense of right vs. wrong and the idea that wrong should be punished. Fagan liked to site the fact that Medieval woodcuts of Sagittarius portrayed the schoolmaster taking the whip to two boys, the Gemiini figures from across the zodiac.

I disagree with you that "sharp blades" isn't enough. The arrow's cutting tip stands out as a basic symbolic (archetypal, actually) Sagittarian idea.

[Soft Alpaca]

Just having a hard time seeing where this sharp cutting comes from (the punishment is a Jupiter idea clearly). Where does the pain motif come from, the dominance could be a Jupiter idea sure (I just can't see the structure of Jupiter acting without mercury holding this up, unlike Scorpios violence and most other signs traits being clearly supported by there thesis and antithesis planets).

[Jim Eshelman]

Just having a hard time seeing where this sharp cutting comes from (the punishment is a Jupiter idea clearly). Where does the pain motif come from, the dominance could be a Jupiter idea sure (I just can't see the structure of Jupiter acting without mercury holding this up, unlike Scorpios violence and most other signs traits being clearly supported by there thesis and antithesis planets).

It's from the arrow symbolism. Signs aren't all planetary. Rulers and exalted planets, quadruplicities, and the distinctive symbolic quality of the archetype - which, for Sagittarius, is primarily the arrow, both in flight-height and cutting, and secondarily the centaur.

[James Condor]

I wonder if all mutable signs after Hubs have a fine line between them. Taurus/Gemini, Leo/Virgo, Scorpio/Sagittarius and Aquarius/Pisces. Maybe similar but different

[Jim Eshelman]

I wonder if all mutable signs after Hubs have a fine line between them. Taurus/Gemini, Leo/Virgo, Scorpio/Sagittarius and Aquarius/Pisces. Maybe similar but different

It doesn't seem so to me.

With Virgo, the "fine line" is better seen with the sign after it, the Virgo-Libra line. The constellations are dramatically different in some ways - one is ruled by Venus, one is the fall of Venus - but their iconography often overlaps. Virgo is the goddess of justice who stretches out her arm holding the scales. Libra is more likely to be the attorney but Virgo the judge: Two studies show Libra Sun most common for attorneys, but Supreme Court justices - including about half of the U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justices.

I can't think of any symbolic overlap from Taurus to Gemini, and the character distinctions are quite sharp. Pisces and Aquarius share a water theme - the start of the Nile's flood, then the full flooded area; or, one might say, the waterways and the fishes in them - and they are both in the occult, woo-woo zone, though in starkly different ways - but, again, the characters are acutely differerent.

[Jim Eshelman]

About that boundary though... I went through a patch when I ran into a lot of people with Sun in the first few degrees of Sagittarius that struck me more like Scorpios. On closer inspection, they were definitely Sag... I finally sorted out that what I was really noticing is that they felt like Hubs, and I was reading that more as Scorpio.

And it was only in the first few degrees of Sagittarius.

It then occurred to me that the greatest hub in the sky - the Galactic Center - is at 2° Sagittarius. I even wondered, for a while, whether this was warping space right there (warping the zodiac), making a "Scorpio bulge" into Sagittarius despite the fact that every other sign division appeared to be precise to the second of arc.

I finally decided it was much simpler than that: The Galactic Center is a hub-like, deep gravity well anchoring center with a roughly 2° orb so the zone 0°-4° Sagittarius is simply conjunct the GC. (A confirmation of this would be to find people with Sun between 0°00' and 0°05' Sagittarius that would be Sag without being within a 2° of the GC. By this theory, they probably are devoid of the Hub quality.)

[Soft Alpaca]

Now see that would give a whole new meaning to the two faced side if Sagittarius, creating both spoke and hub individuals. However i still see some of this motif in my own chart, and other than a Mars/MC=GC (.94°?, Adding Me/Sun+AC to this it stays true to an extent )

[James Condor]

Taurus/Gemini I thought shared “Charming”.
I do see a sharper cutoff with Virgo/Libra than I do Leo/Virgo.

So Sagittarius A, is the Galactic Center and also supermassive black hole in the center of the Milky Way

[Jim Eshelman]

Taurus/Gemini I thought shared “Charming”.

Interestingly, that character trait shows up for Taurus Sun and Gemini Moon. I'm pretty sure the word (which is really just a thesaurus collation of a lot of varied adjectives) has a different meaning, but you're right that it did pop up - though for different luminaries.

So Sagittarius A, is the Galactic Center and also supermassive black hole in the center of the Milky Way

They do tend to classify it as a black hole these days, though at one time it was thought to be a white hole. Yes, the Galactic Center is at 2°06' Sagittarius (give or take a minute depending on the time of year).

[Soft Alpaca]

As for the motif of sign transference. Leo is the sickle that Virgo used to harvest the grain. Libra was at some point huge claws (of assumabley Justice) that was part of Scorpio and the Scorpio tail motif stretched into Sagittarius (sharp, pointy things (like an arrow) also representing the nature of the beast).

Im fairly certain my own qualms (correct me if im wrong here Jim) with Sagittarius motif that i have are answered possibly by my Capricorn Mars (I couldn't even tell you where my eagle scout award paper is or any of my JROTC ribbons, I see this stuff as useless clutter, why own a sword if i can't use it {unless of course its an heriloom or sacred - in which case i still might use it}.

[James Condor]

I actually have spent a considerable amount of time with CN, call him. He was born Christmas Day of 1982 I believe. Mars in Capricorn, moon in either Taurus or Aries.
When I first met him I was surprised how his look was contrast his personality. Now, I mean this in a subtle way. It may well be a match. It may well explain allot about Sagittarius. If I dig into it, maybe. But it’s very subtle and is one of those astrological phenomena.
So, he is 6’4 and skinny as heck. Medium light brown or sandy blonde hair over his ears. Lightly bearded or sideburns. Always wears jeans, not shorts. Musician. Smart. Purdue grad.
He was influential to me in ways upon the first few years knowing him. Really good dude. Funny, serious, talkative, passionate. Quick tempered. Not afraid to physically fight, has done it before.
As I became to know him and astrology more, it became easier to see the differences and similarities between myself, my father, CN and other less know Sag Suns.
He was open to meet and talk with strangers. A Sag trait in all the above mentioned, is being able to talk to any stranger about anything or, about something they find in common in small talk.
We are all ritualistic in daily living. Sorta superstitious.
All of us are thin build and have gone bald or are balding. All of us are guitarists and bassists. All of us can be considered Mean from time to time, which is contrast to the more laid back, agreeable, understanding side. Sag can get real mean and angry and frustrated about things not meeting an expectation? Probably all have fallen short of their own and don’t really know why. Hard on themself and hard on others. Discipline to the point of doing things correctly. Maybe we can bend time mentally?! Ha

[By Jove]

About that boundary though... I went through a patch when I ran into a lot of people with Sun in the first few degrees of Sagittarius that struck me more like Scorpios. On closer inspection, they were definitely Sag... I finally sorted out that what I was really noticing is that they felt like Hubs, and I was reading that more as Scorpio.

And it was only in the first few degrees of Sagittarius.

It then occurred to me that the greatest hub in the sky - the Galactic Center - is at 2° Sagittarius. I even wondered, for a while, whether this was warping space right there (warping the zodiac), making a "Scorpio bulge" into Sagittarius despite the fact that every other sign division appeared to be precise to the second of arc.

I finally decided it was much simpler than that: The Galactic Center is a hub-like, deep gravity well anchoring center with a roughly 2° orb so the zone 0°-4° Sagittarius is simply conjunct the GC. (A confirmation of this would be to find people with Sun between 0°00' and 0°05' Sagittarius that would be Sag without being within a 2° of the GC. By this theory, they probably are devoid of the Hub quality.)

Would you see any hub-like quality shared among these early Sags? (These are the most iconic Sags within 2° orb of GC I can think of).

Robert Moses (Sag Sun, Gem Moon, Cap Mars)
Gustave Eiffel (Sag Sun, Vir Moon, Ari Mars)
Joseph Stalin (Sag Sun, Vir Moon, Sco Mars)
Pope Francis (Sag Sun, Cap Moon, Vir Mars)
Beethoven (Sag Sun, Sco Moon, Gem Mars)
Margaret Mead (Sag Sun, Aqua Moon, Sag Mars)
Chelsea Manning (Sag Sun, Libra Moon, Libra Mars)

[Jim Eshelman]

Would you see any hub-like quality shared among these early Sags? (These are the most iconic Sags within 2° orb of GC I can think of).

Robert Moses (Sag Sun, Gem Moon, Cap Mars)
Gustave Eiffel (Sag Sun, Vir Moon, Ari Mars)
Joseph Stalin (Sag Sun, Vir Moon, Sco Mars)
Pope Francis (Sag Sun, Cap Moon, Vir Mars)
Beethoven (Sag Sun, Sco Moon, Gem Mars)
Margaret Mead (Sag Sun, Aqua Moon, Sag Mars)
Chelsea Manning (Sag Sun, Libra Moon, Libra Mars)

Stalin for sure.

Pope Francis is a tough one. His Sagittarius is soooo obvious. But, remember, I wasn't denying Sag, I was affirming Hub, and it's hard to see someone with his magnitude of gravitas, his scope of mastery, without thinking Hub. (His Sun is only a minute or two away.)

Beethoven's birth date is highly suspect. The most commonly adopted date gives him a Hub Moon so that's hard to filter.

Margaret Mead - from what little I know of her character, I'd have guessed she was a Leo, so I must have a Hub instinct about her. The Aquarius Moon makes her a bad example.
I don't know enough about the characters of the others.

[Soft Alpaca]

Im curious about the GC idea, albeit it should probably be
on another thread, at least copied (purely to focus on that idea just in case it has validity in some sense, saving folks time from trying to digest all of this other madness sorry from this Uranian soul)

As for your answer James there are distinctive traits that i can pick through that are pure Capricorn and see how they overlap (in the case of CT at least) with Sagittarius. The whole fighting things physically is 100% his Capricorn Mars and Aries Moon if he has it. Ive noticed as someone who draws in Scorpio that Capricorn is different than Scorpio because while they both like violence, Scorpio loves battle just as much if not more than it loves winning (winning is a very Sagittarius idea), Capricorn combines these two. We punch because we like it and because we want to knock you out (even if its a swift head kick from the back).

Music in Sagittarius is linked specifically to ritual and and myth, Capricorn likes music because it makes them feel (normal?), It also calms my aff down.

Sagittarius is frustrated when they can't win, Capricorn is like Scorpio in the way that it gets frustrated when they just can't (this is Saturn Versus Uranus Autonomy Versus freedom). A Capricorn can live in a society {hiding in the dark and shadow} and be free, a Scorpio has to challenge the norms (I do too as any Uranus heavy person would). Sagittarius wants to write the norms.

The mean you speak of is different between these 3 signs as well. Scorpio explodes damaging its environment, Sagittarius whips becoming condosending and perhaps cruel and seemingly bipolar, Capricorn stabs in back or throws a pie at you its kind of like wether your worth the blood or if we just want to be passive aggressive (which is a perfect saying for any Capricorn Mars).

Themes run deeper than one might think.. or perhaps not and im another kind of crazy I didn't already know about.

[By Jove]

Would you see any hub-like quality shared among these early Sags? (These are the most iconic Sags within 2° orb of GC I can think of).

Robert Moses (Sag Sun, Gem Moon, Cap Mars)
Gustave Eiffel (Sag Sun, Vir Moon, Ari Mars)
Joseph Stalin (Sag Sun, Vir Moon, Sco Mars)
Pope Francis (Sag Sun, Cap Moon, Vir Mars)
Beethoven (Sag Sun, Sco Moon, Gem Mars)
Margaret Mead (Sag Sun, Aqua Moon, Sag Mars)
Chelsea Manning (Sag Sun, Libra Moon, Libra Mars)

Stalin for sure.

Pope Francis is a tough one. His Sagittarius is soooo obvious. But, remember, I wasn't denying Sag, I was affirming Hub, and it's hard to see someone with his magnitude of gravitas, his scope of mastery, without thinking Hub. (His Sun is only a minute or two away.)

Beethoven's birth date is highly suspect. The most commonly adopted date gives him a Hub Moon so that's hard to filter.

Margaret Mead - from what little I know of her character, I'd have guessed she was a Leo, so I must have a Hub instinct about her. The Aquarius Moon makes her a bad example.
I don't know enough about the characters of the others.

Robert Moses was a public official who was instrumental in designing the modern city and suburb as we know it today.

Gustave Eiffel was the engineer and architect who designed the Eiffel Tower, contributed to the Statue of Liberty, and designed many railway bridges and stations during France's Industrial Age.

Margaret Mead was one of the most famous anthropologists of modern history and a controversial public intellectual whose work influenced the 1960s sexual revolution.

Chelsea Manning was a US soldier who disclosed 750,000 classified and sensitive military and diplomatic documents. She was imprisoned and court-martialed for whistleblowing and since then became a postergirl of sorts to leftists.

I have another, Henri IV of France (Sag Sun, Sco Moon, Sag Mars), who established the Bourbon dynasty in France. His grandson was none other than Louis the XIV.

Margaret Mead and Henri IV don't make the best examples because of their Hub Moons, but it can be useful comparing them to other GC Sags who don't have Hub Moons as a kind of control group.

[Jim Eshelman]

I know who most of these people are. What I was saying is that I don't know their character. Without that, I can't judge very easily whether they seem Hub to me. (All the people I was talking about in my original post were people I personally knew, with whom I interacted frequently, so I could judge my reactions to their behavior - my best clue.)

You added Henry IV, but he has a Scorpio Moon. For this kind of test / question, the Sag can't have a Hub Moon; otherwise, it's moot whether they "feel like a Hub." The answer will usually be, "Of course they do because they DO have a Hub luminary."

[James Condor]

Good stuff Soft Alpaca. And everyone else
My father is December 19 birth time unknown. I don’t have input right now on the Hub like quality. He has partile Sun-Jupiter-Pluto, Moon-Saturn and Mars-Uranus. Moon in Gemini and Mars in Pisces.
My dad and I both share the triple Spoke Sun, Moon and Mars.
We are quite different and he is quiet, strong and stable. He is very opinionated but he doesn’t argue and doesn’t cause a fight.