Sun in Libra - sign project

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:13 am

Welcome to the Sun in Libra discussions project, which will run October 18 - November 16, 2017 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Sun in Libra people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

Here are Sun in Libra interpretive resources on the forum:
Primary section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161
Cyril Fagan: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=101#p605
Garth Allen: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p136
Rupert Gleadow: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=91#p567
Manilius: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121#p744

Additional discussion threads on Libra include:

Libra quote...
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1501#p9099

By Jove · Post by **By Jove** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:29 am

Not sure if my dad counts as a very late Virgo or very early Libra. His DOB is Oct 17, 1956 in Leskovac at 5:00pm. The Fagan/Bradley natal chart program at astro.com makes his Sun to be a razor tight 0'15'' Libra. Don't know if Solar Fire will agree.

Yes, he was abusive and ruined the emotional lives of his first family, but I would also like to think of some good qualities he may have. I may post a redux of my family's natal charts in the future.

By Jove · Post by **By Jove** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:34 am

I would also like to give a shoutout to one of my favorite intellectual YouTubers: Natalie Parrot, born on Oct 21, 1988 in Baltimore.

Her channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/ContraPoints

DDonovanKinsolving · Post by **DDonovanKinsolving** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:51 pm

By_Jove, I get your father's Sol position as Libra 0d 07'06", for 17:00 CET at Leskovac, Serbia (then Yugoslavia, if I've kept up with the political changes).

TheScales_BothWays · Post by **TheScales_BothWays** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:07 pm

Btw I recall in the old forums Jim used to sometimes describe Libra as "feast and famine." May I know why did he describe so?

Also may I know why Libra, the fall and detriment of the "masculine" planets Sun and Mars respectively, with Venus and Saturn in dignity, is often considered the sign of the flowering of [true] femininity; whereas Taurus, in which both "feminine" planets Venus and Moon are in dignity (and Mars in detriment) is not as often associated with femininity?

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:29 pm

TheScales_BothWays wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:07 pm Btw I recall in the old forums Jim used to sometimes describe Libra as "feast and famine." May I know why did he describe so?

I mean it pretty literally. It's the Venus vs. Saturn (NOT a Venus-Saturn aspect, but being Venus alternating with being Saturn). Sexually, Libra swings between virtually closed off and ravenous. This applies to most of the other appetites (and, it seems sometimes, to other things in their lives). There is a capacity for nearly ascetic self-denial and self-deprivation in Libra that is reminiscent of Capricorn.

Also may I know why Libra, the fall of the "masculine" planets Sun and Mars, with Venus and Saturn in dignity, is often considered the sign of the flowering of [true] femininity; whereas Taurus, where both "feminine" planets Venus and Moon are in dignity (and Mars in detriment) is not too often associated with femininity?

Taurus is. It's even more contemporary stereotypes of this than Libra (which is more like, "women as if women had always been the power-dominant gender in society").

What you might be seeing (?) is that Libra is the one that is more related to activist feminine issues. That's because Libra is a Rim - more inclined to activism - while Taurus is a Hub.

Consider, the following Sun in Taurus themes:

CHARMING. Gracious, kindly, amiable, good-hearted. Tolerant (permissive, accepting).
DEVOTION. Friendship is important. Intuitive understanding of people. Devotion is innate to their natures.
SENSITIVE, willingly vulnerable and open, strongly affected by surrounding conditions.
Thrives in harmonious, comfortable, peaceful surroundings, including opportunities for quiet, calm, and solitude. Peace-loving. Shuns the harsh, violent, and rude.
"Mother Earth" themes. “One with the earth,” safe in its embrace. Shows great love for all it produces.
Love of beauty, aesthetic sensitivity.
Physical grace (dancers, skaters).
EROS dominates them: sexual, sensual, and philosophical: a wide embracing of life, its energies, and its mysteries. Oriented to “life of the flesh.”
LIEBESTOD. A “love-death” or tragic love theme is hard wired into Taurus’ psyche. In part, this is an extension of feeling strongly, enacting passionate, tragic, erotic themes.
Prolific biologically, numerous kinds of association with children.

TheScales_BothWays · Post by **TheScales_BothWays** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:50 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:29 pm Sexually, Libra swings between virtually closed off and ravenous. This applies to most of the other appetites (and, it seems sometimes, to other things in their lives). There is a capacity for nearly ascetic self-denial and self-deprivation in Libra that is reminiscent of Capricorn.

My goodness, looks like I'm caught.

I haven't had sex before, but with food, after a series of having very indulgent meals I do tend to eat much lesser. Sometimes I may even skip a meal; though only just one meal, only if I ever think of not eating that is. I won't go to the point of starving myself because I know I would be eating heavily again due to my hunger haha. Then I'd continue eating on a normal basis before the next time I indulge. It seems that the "break" is enough for me to resume to former normal habits without getting stuck on the indulgent habits. Besides, after too much of something I tend to get sick or not interested in it until I've had a long enough break from it. Kinda like how most people feel about cheesecake or fruitcake.

I believe the same "feast or famine" principle can be applied on some other appetite-related habits of mine too.

Though I'll mention that I seem to only go into this "feast or famine" mode if I already had a "feast." Usually I'm moderate enough in my appetites.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:29 pm Taurus is. It's even more contemporary stereotypes of this than Libra (which is more like, "women as if women had always been the power-dominant gender in society").

Ah. Yeah I can agree with Taurus fitting contemporary female stereotypes to an extent. But I think some of Taurus females can get fed up of being too kind and charming to just everyone, especially to those who they feel that don't deserve their kind attention. They may then start to get passive-aggressive (?) or just get downright rude in return too if their Moon sign or some aspect allows that.

Though maybe I'm just describing a common human trait. Yeah, I think I am.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:29 pm What you might be seeing (?) is that Libra is the one that is more related to activist feminine issues. That's because Libra is a Rim - more inclined to activism - while Taurus is a Hub.

Oh. Must've mixed up feminism with femininity

By Jove · Post by **By Jove** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:57 am

Well I do see some rather Libra traits in my dad. Though I do think he is more volatile, bossy, and aggressive than a typical Libra because of his Pisces Moon and grand "water" trine.

I strongly see the karma trait of Libra with him. If you step out of line with him, even if it is petty, he will tip the scale back at you, paying you back with interest.

On feast and famine: after his first family, he was alone though he did have some girlfriends the relationships never went too deep or long lasting. Then he found his third wife and exploded, having four children with her.

His third wife is a Gemini Sun and she has often complained about how my father was very cold with emotions. She said something like, "I don't understand how he can live without emotions like I do." So there is Saturn again. He is also a bit of a control freak.

As for Venus: he does have an artistic touch; like painting flowers, growing spices, and making things as pretty, comfortable, and perfect as he can. Though I do find his art to be lacking in pathos and other strong emotions. He, like the Libra Sun composer Daniel Steibelt, was at heart an interior designer. I'm more the architect type.

He is superficially charming and sweet (Venus) but underneath it lies the dark saturnine traits. I think this trait applies well to the other "air" signs, though it is especially prominent in Libra.

He does have a feminine appearance; large dark eyes, long eyelashes, small shoulders and hands, small facial features, though the square face has a severe quality to it.

I could go on.

By Jove · Post by **By Jove** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:03 am

As for Natalie Parrot (Contrapoints) I can say the following.

She was mentally troubled and took many psychiatric medications in her youth, and now is transgender, so there is the theme of psychiatric problems and alienation emphasized among the "air" signs.

She displays the lavish "feast" quality very well, complete with beautiful designs, elaborate costumes and acting roles. She is also a good graphic designer.

And there is the Libra quality of being discreet and having good sense in discussion, someone who is careful not to unnecessarily say incendiary things to annoy people. Though her queer sexuality is all out there, no holds barred.

Seems to have a pessimistic and existentialist view of the universe (Saturn).

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:35 pm

Me:

RELATIONSHIP CONSCIOUS. Responds very warmly to friendly overtures. Courteous, polite, well-mannered. (STATS: Most marrying constellation. Very high among male members of "lonely hearts clubs.")

Yes. All of this.

Social adjustment problems. Key difficulties to overcome before they are comfortable relating socially.

Self-conscious about their relatability (including sexuality). Afraid they "won't know what to do." Fear of rejection.

These two feel like the same thing to me.

Non-profound relationships (which, however, are profound to them!).

"She gave me water!" Those who reach beyond the barrier of social awkwardness are highly valued.

Possessive of people. Jealous [cf. Valens].

And for the above reason.

Love of the esthetic; often also a capacity for artistic ACHIEVEMENT.

Moderate. Not excellent.

Enjoys beautiful, comfortable surroundings - a "nice" lifestyle.

Absolutely. Surroundings affect one's mental state. Calm, soothing, beautiful, peaceful... Very nice.

Don't go out much... would rather stick to "home territory." Fond of their homes... a comfortable, pleasant place to retreat. It just seems that they are never at home.

Yes. One or two guests are very, very welcome, but I'm afraid I'm an overly self-conscious and unrelaxed host. Until the social lubricants come out, at least.

Busy-ness. When not at home they maintain a rather full, hectic schedule. Always has schedule full of things to do.

Periodically. Doesn't feel that true for me, but there have definitely been periods where this was true.

Has difficulty coordinating the various parts of his life to prevent their detrimentally overlapping.

I feel completely at home in about three different groups of people who hate each other. I wish they could get along.

DISFIGUREMENT-sensitive. Very conscious of their bodies, appearances, etc. (the slightest blemish can panic them). Yet able to adjust easily to scars, etc. when necessary. [STATS: Many of the fields in which Libra scores significantly low are fields that risk injury or disfigurement. This is true of the two areas of athletics where it has a stand-out deficit (boxing and race car driving), as well as lows in various collections of soldiers, sailors, and explorers.]

Yes.

The idea of pain abhors them, but they can be highly insensitive to pain when actually experiencing it. For Libra, the idea is always more than the real thing.

I say "ouch" when I'm afraid something might hurt. Drives my wife crazy.

Psychological sadism ("Misery loves company.").

Detrimentally so. Had a dream about it last night.

TEASE motif. Makes things enticing, "Gets them wanting more." (Sexually, selling ideas, story-telling, etc.)
Deny themselves gratification by not sharing their needs and wants with others. May sublimate desire into food or something else pleasurable. They love food!

hehe.. Yeah.

Touchers - not just in sex.

Hmm... Yeah. For me, touch is so potent, I find it difficult to touch others. It's too personal.

NARCISSISTIC in sex. Attention and strokes (in TA sense) essential to their sexual pleasure.

um... I uh... Pass.

LOVE OF PEACE. Mediators, negotiators, "peace-makers" except where their own most personal problems are concerned. (Must be "third party" negotiators.)

Yes. Great lengths for peace. Over and over. But then comes the grim.

People go to Libra with problems because he returns unbiased (but cautious) feedback. Resolves conflicts by trying to please everyone at once.

Yes. This. Made me crazy though.

Frequently has difficulty making decisions because he is unwilling to commit himself - afraid of making the wrong choice.

Absolutely. It takes a long time.

No false compliments are given by Libra - has to feel he is being sincere.

I would get into less trouble if I complimented more easily.

They recognize the existence of a problem, but not the underlying cause. Difficulty in coming to terms with own shortcomings.

I don't know what you're talking about.

Slow to sing own praises. Not satisfied with themselves as they are; very conscious of the fact that they could be doing better, that their personalities need an overall - but do very little about it..

No comment.

Cares strongly about (and many are activists for) issues of human rights, equality, environmental protection, animal rights, etc. (e.g., Theodore Roosevelt, Alfred Nobel, Dame Anita Roddick, Hillary Rodham Clinton, Bill Gates, etc. plus numerous notable peace-makers)

Totally. But I had to step back from attempting to play some kind of important role. Drove me crazy.

Blithely confident of a better world ahead - personal and social IDEALISM. ("It's going to get better.-)
They aren't in the "here and now." Libra is phased into the FUTURE. (They phase into an Alpha-state with very little effort - feel more comfortable there.)

Yes. The Alpha-state thing. So that's a Libra thing? I thought that was just me.

One of the shrewdest operators you will find (in a sneaky sense).

Just seems... prudent.

MONEY-AWARENESS. Concerned with finances. (Hates long-distance phone calls!)

Really a big stressor. That just me though?

EFFICIENT - if it concerns them.

Works to make more efficient. People comment.

Poor short-term memory. (Inattentive?)

Drifting into the Alpha-state. Get in trouble for it all the time.

Organizational skills, good at working with subordinates, capable at completing assigned tasks. Good foremen, department heads, coordinators (once they accept the hassles of the job).

Yes. I think so, anyway.

Cautious in committing himself to schedules until he is sure he can carry through. "Checks the map and gas tank before the trip."

And prints it out, and gives it to relatives.

Allows a margin of error.

Yes.

Obsessive-compulsive.

See me doing this list this way?

BALANCE motif. Takes Karma into his own hands. <i>Golden Rule:</i> "Do unto others as they have done unto you - only more so!" Remembers any favors; but, once they are crossed, make tracks!

There is definitely the bend, bend, bend, and then inflexible thing.

INTENSE. Libra can outstare anyone.

If you deserve the look.

Covert, secretive. (Internalized or restrained.)

Just seems prudent.

Incredible ability to stew.

Gotta take Benedryl some nights to turn it off.

Venus takes care of her own: Libra women are very comfortable with their roles (Aphrodite incarnate) - they do far better than Libra men.

Yeah, I have a friend like that. Born a day later than me.

Libra men seem lost in their male identities - often groping for a comfortable way to be themselves and still fit society's requirements (image) of "male."

Yes. Here, I'm surrounded by oil-refinery and construction guys. Stand out.

Career women. Libra women live in a woman's role as it would be if women were the predominant gender.

No comment.

Pantheistic. "Metaphysical" but not conventionally religious. Comfortable with "the Old Religion."

Not until I got older, but, now, yes, exactly.

Have a good one!

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:53 am

With all the relationship stuff, i may be an extreme outlier, remembering that in my progressed chart Venus is afflicted by Saturn long term. Relationships are precious to me.

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:25 am

Final thought, and then I'll shut up about myself, but these are a couple of things I ponder a lot.

With the bit about Libra being lost in our male identities... I mentioned I was surrounded (extended family and just this area) by oil-refinery and construction guys. Everybody's got trucks, four-wheelers, and boats...

It's not so much about feeling effeminate, though that is the accusation from these kinds of men. It's more about feeling or maintaining a sense of child-likeness. I don't still have a Star Wars collection or anything, but my reactions and my interactions are more... youthful feeling and expressive than what feels like the socially agreed-upon facade of manliness. More innocently open and trusting... maybe? Less cynically aggressive? Hard to put my finger on.

For what it's worth.

Alright, I'll shut up.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:39 am

Oh, no need to shut up. This is good stuff.

Having said that, I'm intrigued by and skeptical of the last point - not for you, but for Libra men in general - because the ones I have known through my life usually never had that kind of innocence. (By "never," I mean it was beaten out of them very early, and they seem not even to have had it as children, so "keeping" it into adulthood wasn't an option for them.)

One wonders, then, what else preserved this for you, let you hold onto it, e.g., you're throw-away line was about space fantasy and you have a Pisces Moon. I don't think it's the rising Sun (a first thought of mine) because I've known other angular Sun Libra men who just went "tough guy act" on life. So I'm not sure. Maybe you just have a more durable character and are actually more heroic?

Maybe it's Spica exactly rising? I'd hate to rely on something that we don't actually know means anything despite its centuries-old anecdotal meaning.

By Jove · Post by **By Jove** » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:32 am

Shout out to Double Libra actress Thandie Newton. She is noted for her excellent performances in Crash and Westworld. Her warm personality and deep concern for human justice is typical of the sign. Her birthday was just three days ago.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am

I was reorganizing some of my notes on Libra this morning - not making new observations, just resolve current interpretation notes down to a few lines. (I've currently boiled it down to about 10 lines that I want to knock down to 3 lines... more on that elsewhere.)

I want to record here (for future reference) a "feel" I'm getting. This probably doesn't make a good interpretive element on its own, but helps me recall the tone or context for understanding all the other notes. The overall feeling I was getting was a soul-cry of, "Can't we just have things nice?"

It's not just wanting "nice things" (though that's there). And, despite Libra's brought social idealism and optimistic futurism, it's not naïve. Libra gets that things suck - maybe more than most people because (1) they are Saturn-driven and (2) nobody registers disappointment like an optimistic idealist. And they do a lot of snarky things in frustrated (or justice-demanding) retaliation against people and events that "keep things from being nice." But, bottom line, I think this is the spirit of their motivations.

The love of beauty, wanting to look nice, preferring people to get along, esthetic tastes (and, yes, enjoying having and seeing "nice things"), appearance-sensitivity, love of peace and justice (including retaliation against misbehavior and injustice or other "not right" things), social activism... they'd really like to just relax back and let everybody "have it nice for a while."

Or, so I see it this morning.

(Scales, you still around? Thoughts?)

TheScales_BothWays · Post by **TheScales_BothWays** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:50 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am (Scales, you still around? Thoughts?)

Yes, I'm still here

Was about to reply to your question in the Angles' expressions topic, till I read your post above in this one...

Jim, you spoke to my soul!

I was in total delight to read your post, especially during this time when Uranus is opposing my Sun.

Lately I've become even more concerned and frustrated with the way the world's going (at least through my lenses), with the oppression, hate, ignorance, (and how some find a false sense of bliss in it), misconceptions, etc. and oh, how some people just can't understand love, human nature and pure logic!

I was thinking about venting in the "Many Things" subforum, beginning with how homophobia is slowly reaching a whole new poisonous level here (I suppose that's for another post/thread), and end up who knows where...

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am And, despite Libra's brought social idealism and optimistic futurism, it's not naïve. Libra gets that things suck...

Yes, exactly. We do. We're not "snowflakes" and "rainbow glitter social justice warriors." (Although why not for the latter, if you only mean well and you're just spreading positivity and awareness.)

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am And they do a lot of snarky things in frustrated (or justice-demanding) retaliation against people and events that "keep things from being nice."

Snarky is the best word you could use for that. Sometimes the frustration's too much that I hope at least being harshly critical would bring some sense into for some people. Unfortunately it doesn't as always. (And even if I do end up being snarky to someone, I'd later feel terrible for treating them like that.) If I get the chance, I'll cool down and let my diplomatic side of Libra take over because, to my surprise and delight, people really do appreciate tact and kindness.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am The love of beauty, wanting to look nice, preferring people to get along, esthetic tastes (and, yes, enjoying having and seeing "nice things"), appearance-sensitivity, love of peace and justice (including retaliation against misbehavior and injustice or other "not right" things), social activism... they'd really like to just relax back and let everybody "have it nice for a while."

~~Yes~~ YAS. We're humans, and life is not too Martial, Saturnine or anything as we think of or like to. So every once in a while, why can't we have things nice for a while.

I'm a little worried about the "Can't we just have things nice?" label though, since it can be misinterpreted as something else more of what would a typical Venus-Jupiter person mean by that, y'know?

P.S. I seem like I let my Jupiter-Neptune side a little too loose for this post, so I may not seem that serious, especially regarding my concerns frustrations. I truly am!

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:32 am

I’d like to throw in too.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am
I want to record here (for future reference) a "feel" I'm getting. This probably doesn't make a good interpretive element on its own, but helps me recall the tone or context for understanding all the other notes. The overall feeling I was getting was a soul-cry of, "Can't we just have things nice?"

Yeah, “soul-cry.” That strength, that depth.
“Nice” though... It just sounds so simplistic, almost cynical: “They just want everybody to be nice.” At the same time, there’s truth in it. Harmony. Balance. Beauty. I guess that’s all “nice.”

It's not just wanting "nice things" (though that's there). And, despite Libra's brought social idealism and optimistic futurism, it's not naïve. Libra gets that things suck - maybe more than most people because (1) they are Saturn-driven and (2) nobody registers disappointment like an optimistic idealist. And they do a lot of snarky things in frustrated (or justice-demanding) retaliation against people and events that "keep things from being nice." But, bottom line, I think this is the spirit of their motivations.

This sounds really accurate, especially the Saturn bit. For myself, it really has the feel of “Choose this day which you will have, a blessing or a curse. Come on, now, why not choose blessing? Let’s have fun. Let’s see beauty. Oh, you want the other? Okay, I’m probably about to surprise you.” People don’t think that’s there, but it’s shockingly there.

I know I keep returning to that idea. I can’t tell you how true it is for me. Don’t know if that’s just particularly me or what. And like Scales says, there’s guilt and a sense of failure when that happens. I think when I was younger it was repressed. Now that I’m older, it’s more like something that I have to try to maintain control of.

The love of beauty, wanting to look nice, preferring people to get along, esthetic tastes (and, yes, enjoying having and seeing "nice things"), appearance-sensitivity, love of peace and justice (including retaliation against misbehavior and injustice or other "not right" things), social activism... they'd really like to just relax back and let everybody "have it nice for a while."

God! Why can’t we?

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:15 am

Thanks to both of you

Lance, yes, there is a lot of Sidereal Libra that is exactly what Tropicalists find in Scorpio. (A lot of other stuff, too, of course - it's not a one-for-one, but one sees the accuracy in their trait observations.) But the symbolism actually fits Libra better than Scorpio, especially when you consider that Saturn's dignity coexists with Venus.

Take, for example, the trait I call "taking the Law of Karma into their own hands" - Do Libra nice, and the rewards are generous and vast. Do'em wrong, and you might as well book your one-way ticket to hell. There's just such a sense that somebody should personally make right what is wrong.

Or take the gratify vs. deny swing, rhythmically like scales swinging wildly toward balance (though actually a pendulum fits better). One version is the tendency to extremes of self-gratification vs. self-denial, or applying this to others. A more artful version is the ability to tease - whether sexually, in sales, in entertainment: entice, deny, gratify.

I know what you mean about "nice" seeming naïve and simplistic. But isn't that just because, really, everybody wants things to be nice and anybody with their eyes open sees that it usually isn't? But why not want it?

Again, thanks on the feedback. Though I haven't vetted all the Libra traits yet, I just wrote a tight "preliminary summary" as follows:

Relationship-centered. Polite, warm, affectionate; possessive, jealous. Enjoys beauty, comfort; often artistic. Appearance-conscious (vain). Tease (self & others: entice, deny, gratify). Peace (appeasement). Justice (righting wrongs). Shrewd, intense, secretive. Feminine thrives better than masculine. Optimistic futurist (personally, socially).

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:58 am

Relationship-centered. Polite, warm, affectionate; possessive, jealous. Enjoys beauty, comfort; often artistic. Appearance-conscious (vain). Tease (self & others: entice, deny, gratify). Peace (appeasement). Justice (righting wrongs). Shrewd, intense, secretive. Feminine thrives better than masculine. Optimistic futurist (personally, socially).

I like it.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:30 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:17 am Take, for example, the trait I call "taking the Law of Karma into their own hands" - Do Libra nice, and the rewards are generous and vast. Do'em wrong, and you might as well book your one-way ticket to hell. There's just such a sense that somebody should personally make right what is wrong.

So true Jim.
I have always thought this is my Scorpio Moon in action. The last sentence speaks volumes to me.
It is a relief to know it really is a Libra trait. For good or for worse.
Everything in my life is about returning to equilibrium, I feel completely out of balance when it doesn't feel that way. The end result is feeling the peace and harmony within.

I don't really feel like an activist myself. However I know quite a few Libra men who are into fighting for a cause. To get things right so that justice will prevail in the end.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:35 am

Flo, a few years back I spent a few months noting every obituary in the LA Times for which I could get at least a day, month, and year of birth. There was a long run of Libra Sun deaths in short order (seemed a majority for a while), and I noted that nearly every one of them, even when known primarily for other things, had a strong history of animal protection, environmental protection, a voice for women's rights, an effort at forging peace... and more. Until that time, I hadn't thought so much about it that way.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:42 pm

yes, very interesting Jim. I can very much imagine that.

A few years ago I was working at a conference of Women's International League for Peace & Freedom and I met so many Libra's there, it was an eye openener. Most of them were strong activists.
I really relate to standing up for the underdog.

However, if indeed like you say when I feel wronged which gladly doesn't happen much, all this underdog cause and being nice can instantly disappear and I know I have taken Karma in my own hands, really it felt as having no choice

Soft Alpaca · Post by **Soft Alpaca** » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:05 pm

I honestly have a good bit a Libra folks in my life (versus Aries for example i think i know like 2 or 3 i total, and I've traveled far). Something about the rising sun motif is seen clearly in these people, its artistic, hopeful, beautiful and pure. Well liked - almost worshiped, but its also vital, essential, and in some cases deadly. Also yes Libra can naturally take over a room, just like sun, not because they radiate like leo, but id like to say words like sparkle or shine.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:54 pm

Before diving into my Libra rewrite from these notes, I want to mention a few things evident to me from the list of personal and famous people I've compiled with Libra Suns.

First - and not mentioned often enough - there is a truly dark, even monstrous side to Libra. This isn't typical, hardly representative of Libras overall, but there are enough examples to mention it. Many of these are murderers from the pool that are thought of as truly gruesome, including Charles Manson, Fritz Harmann, and William Heirens (and the less monstrous but no less historic and impactful Lee Harvey Oswald). Or other monsters of modern history like Joseph Goebbels and Joseph McCarthy.

There are, however, great humanitarians - Bill Gates comes immediately to mind - as well as historic giants of bringing peace, such as William Penn, King Edward VII, Theodore Roosevelt, Jawaharlal Nehru and (by his music) even Neil Young. There are truly physically beautiful people, especially when they are young - consider the young Chuck Berry, Hedy Lamarr, Johnny Carson, Leonardo DiCaprio, Montgomery Clift (and, hey, if we're going by "when they were young" se can even add back Neil Young

).I've had more Libran woman significant in my life (including my first wife) than any other Sun-sign. I have much that is good and kind to say about all of them.

But I don't think you can have a complete picture of Libra without acknowledging the truly monstrous, the dark soul-chambers as diabolical as the devil symbolism of Saturn's other constellation, Capricorn.

The other shadow side of Libra obvious to me - also almost never mentioned - is something I found in Garth Allen's private unpublished notes summarizing the constellations. He opens his notes on Libra with: "BLACK SHEEP of the zodiac! Capacity for being misunderstood and criticized is almost limitless. Inherent problem of social adjustment." This, of course, is pretty common among Rims in general. I see it more pronounced with Mars in Libra (that often appear as social outliers) than Sun, but, of course, there are the "black sheep" examples. He had other notes that dwell on a weakness in Libra.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:32 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:54 pm First - and not mentioned often enough - there is a truly dark, even monstrous side to Libra. This isn't typical, hardly representative of Libras overall, but there are enough examples to mention it. Many of these are murderers from the pool that are thought of as truly gruesome, including Charles Manson, Fritz Harmann, and William Heirens (and the less monstrous but no less historic and impactful Lee Harvey Oswald). Or other monsters of modern history like Joseph Goebbels and Joseph McCarthy.

Jim, I noticed these are all men. Is this because women with the Sun in Libra take care of her own? Quoted from the Primary section: Libra women are very comfortable with their roles (Aphrodite incarnate) - they do far better than Libra men.
Libra men seem lost in their male identities - often groping for a comfortable way to be themselves and still fit society's requirements (image) of "male."
Career women. Libra women live in a woman's role as it would be if women were the predominant gender.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:53 am

I think it is, Flo. I don't have the exact pathway worked out - am not yet sure of the psychological tracing of this - but I tend to think you are right (or, at least, mostly right). It's easier to find a few of these among women with Libra Moons (a few ugly murderers), but they don't stand out for Libra Suns.

OTOH, this could be because the percentage of documented lives and documented birth charts is much higher for men. (We have more famous men's charts in general. It's a struggle to find notable women's charts in anything approaching equitable numbers.

The pathway might be the following (or I might be completely wrong about this - I'm trying to think it through based on what we do know). A Libra Sun has an identity core that aligns with what Western society has long characterized as feminine. For a few thousand years, that same Western society (and, to a lesser extent, Eastern) has been suppressive (attempting to be dismissive) of femininity as a source of power and equal standing. Libra men instinctively feel that things fundamentally true of them are things that male society dismisses, suppresses, and about which it broadly has ambivalent and even negative feelings. This creates a psychological conflict in most Libran men - the most important psychological conflict of all, I think - which is that what they most instinctively feel is true about themselves is socially unacceptable and admitting it will lead to their loss of power, standing, and the ability to effectively survive and thrive.

All this in a sign to which social inclusion and effective survival are the strongest needs!

Men who are able to consciously accept some significant block of this (culturally defined femininity) have much less conflict. For decades, I've noticed that the Libra men I knew who were most comfortable with themselves were gay or artists, for examples. Also, of course, someone who is broadly psychologically healthy will weather any such conflict far better.

All of the above is stuff I am sure is true about Libra men in general (with individual exceptions, especially resting on general psychological health and the ability to confront their own shadow). Now we get into more speculative reasoning, but (whether true or not) a reasonable line of conjecture.

For the less healthy examples, this pattern of social exclusion of what they instinctively feel is true about themselves - a deep self-loathing develops. (I think the word loathing is not too strong, and speaks to the depths of their darkness). Everything we see in these shadow examples, I think, is rooted in the magnitude of their self-loathing.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:25 pm

Thank you Jim. I would never be able to put this so nice and gently into words as you did. You have written about this before and I see a lot of the things you described as capturing the truth. Basically, in my environment from what I see is that if a Libra man is truly allowed to be who he is, the person is very balanced and gentle and much liked. He is at ease with himself. When parents or caretakers want the Libra man to act like a real man and toughen him up that's when the internal problems start. I have seen some very messed up Libra men struggling with their identities.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:05 pm

Libra men with a so called darker (speculating here), self loathing and/or controversial side :
Marc Dutroux
Butcher of Hannover

Prince Laurent of Belgium
Herman Brood, singer
Jan Wolkers, artist
Bram Bakker, psychiatrist

Great humanitarians:
Job Cohen, former mayor of Amsterdam
Erasmus
Johannes Vermeer, painter
Michel Gauguelin, astrologer
Jan Terlouw, politician
Freddie Heineken

And of course Scales and Lance, our pleasant, delightful Libran men on this forum.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:45 pm

FlorencedeZ. wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:05 pm Marc Dutroux, Butcher of Hannover

A fascinating chart and another example of Sagittarius Moon. He also has a "heartless" Saturn-Pluto square on angles. Thanks.

Herman Brood, singer

Suicide rock star after a life of drug abuse and mental illness. (Interestingly for Libra also a painter of some note.) Sun-Pluto square surely added to social alienation.

Michel Gauguelin, astrologer

You listed him under humanitarian's, but this was also a tragic end. After decades of service, Michel killed himself. The most immediate trigger was that his answer to a challenge by antagonistic scientists did not confirm his work and he was going to suffer great embarrassment, but it had to be more than that. - In that sense, his culminating Jupiter (and perhaps a bit of Libra vanity) was his downfall. (At least one complication was that he was separated from his second wife, which was an emotional blow. He must have been quite alone, since he was dead a month before he was found in his apartment.)

Though Michel was always quite kind and gracious to me (his Venus exactly on my IC, and a classic Frenchman), his first wife Francoise (whom I thought always showed her German side quite fiercely) described him publicly as a medieval tyrant.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:50 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:45 pm Though Michel was always quite kind and gracious to me (his Venus exactly on my IC, and a classic Frenchman), his first wife Francoise (whom I thought always showed her German side quite fiercely) described him publicly as a medieval tyrant.

oh Wow, didn't quite expect that and what a tragic ending he had.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:21 am

I have finished my rewrite of the Sun in Libra interpretation notes. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161

The summary has been lightly modified and now reads as follows:

Relationship-centered. Polite, warm, affectionate (possessive, jealous). Enjoys beauty, comfort; often artistic. Appearance-conscious (vain). Tease, swings between gratify vs. deny (self, others). Peace (appeasement). Justice (righting wrongs). Self-sufficient, cautious, effective survivors. Feminine thrives better than masculine. Optimistic futurist (personally, socially).

TheScales_BothWays · Post by **TheScales_BothWays** » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:43 pm

First of all, loving the insightful discussion on here.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:53 am For decades, I've noticed that the Libra men I knew who were most comfortable with themselves were gay or artists, for examples.

Myself included, I guess. Haha. I don't always express my feminine side to everyone, mostly just to close friends and when I am alone in my room, where I am free to be as myself, but I am thankful I have a few people and situations who/where I can express my feminine and masculine as I wish, as it makes me feel more honest to myself and it makes me feel I am authentically me. Sometimes, I do like to present masculine as well, especially in terms of style or fashion/outward appearance, as (as a gay man) it makes me feel attractive haha. That is probably my Cap Moon working.

I don't want this to become a rant ('cause I could go on and on about this

) but wherever I go, there always seems to be a [straight] guy or a few of them who bother me. In particular, they want me to become "more masculine" or something. Interestingly, one of them has a partile Mars-Saturn opposition, another guy has a close Mars-Pluto conjunction, and another also has a partile Mars-Pluto semisquare, but along with a partile Mars-Jupiter opposition and a close Mars-Venus square, and is a Taurus.

Sometimes it's kind of fun (like they give me style tips, workout tips), other times it becomes a bit bothersome (they advise me to follow or respect a gender norm) and at its worst, it becomes borderline bullying: they try fight me so that I could "build some character" and "become a man" and fight them back. Then they tell me/warn me I should be someone who fights back 'cause I am an "easy target" and people will take advantage of my "softness" (as if they aren't doing exactly that, pfft) and what not. They don't like it if I don't care about them when they bother me, and at worst, I have to throw out a tantrum for them to leave me alone. I don't even present as that feminine of a person anyway in front of straight people. I just kinda appear as a "soft" nerd (my Moon-Mercury side of me I guess), which most people (especially women) take it as: "Aw, a kind/innocent/shy, good-mannered, hardworking, smart student", 'cause I do live in an Asian country and we Asians in general give a lot of importance to studies.

--------------------------------------

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:54 pm First - and not mentioned often enough - there is a truly dark, even monstrous side to Libra.

...

But I don't think you can have a complete picture of Libra without acknowledging the truly monstrous, the dark soul-chambers as diabolical as the devil symbolism of Saturn's other constellation, Capricorn.

As a Libra-Capricorn, I do acknowledge that I have my own shadow side (I guess we all technically do). It is easy to let it take over but I cannot let that and I am slowly and steadily trying to work my way above it. It is easier to be above my shadows when life is busy and going well though.
--------------------------------------

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:21 am I have finished my rewrite of the Sun in Libra interpretation notes. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161

I love it, Jim. I even love the little details you give to the main points, like:

Vanity not as much about appearance as of needing to "light up someone's eyes."

'Cause that is quite true haha.

Poor short-term memory. (Inattentive? Easily slips into relaxed alpha state.)

And this too! I so easily slip into that inattentive "alpha-state".

In Manglish, (informal Malaysian English) we call that being in a "blur".

The statistics, though, seem to be in a very small font. I have to zoom the page to 175% to read them comfortably on my 1366x768 14-inch laptop screen.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:20 pm

I wanted them to appear more like footnotes, mostly invisible unless you really want to read them. Easiest way: Press "quote" and everything is ordinary text.

Thanks for the feedback. Glad it works for you so well.

TheScales_BothWays · Post by **TheScales_BothWays** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:36 pm

I notice that a few minor traits mentioned in the older interpretations didn't make it to the updated one. In particular, these traits, which I think are still accurate (at least for me):

Social adjustment problems. Key difficulties to overcome before they are comfortable relating socially.

It did take me a while to get more open and social with people. My Venus-themed solar return back in 2015 was certainly a strong catalyst for that.

Non-profound relationships (which, however, are profound to them!).

I agree with this. After all, I've had huge crushes on two guys solely/primarily because of their looks.

It could be my age though, and my double-rim luminaries.

- Don't go out much... would rather stick to "home territory." Fond of their homes... a comfortable, pleasant place to retreat. It just seems that they are never at home.
- Busy-ness. When not at home they maintain a rather full, hectic schedule. Always has schedule full of things to do.

Not that sure about the "don't go out much" part but yes, we Librans do appear to be very busy (and that we're never at home) and we tend to be so when we're at work or school, but we love being at home too. I love relaxing at home (in my room especially), and quarantine has shown me that it takes quite a bit for me to get bored staying at home. I may miss my friends and miss having social interaction, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm bored staying at home. And the internet fulfils a lot of my entertainment needs. Though I'm sure my leisure-loving angular Jupiter has some influence on this too.

They aren't in the "here and now." Libra is phased into the FUTURE. (They phase into an Alpha-state with very little effort - feel more comfortable there.)

The "alpha-state" is mentioned in the updated interpretations, but not the part about being phased into the future. Indeed I very much am so, especially when I'm alone in my room. A lot of times I would just think of myself being in the future (albeit the near-future, like the next 5-10 or 15 years) playing out situations in my head of where would I be then and what would I be doing. For example, I may imagine myself being a cheerful, social youth in a big gay-friendly city somewhere (gosh, that sounds depressing once I typed it out lol) or handling workplace situations in a job I think I would be in. My angular Jupiter-Neptune square surely must have a strong influence on this as well.

Though I am more of a "here-and-now" person when I'm working on something (like a task or an assignment) or when I am assessing a situation, when I am disillusioned with something and coping with it or getting through it, and when I am introspecting, which could reflect the Saturn dignity in my Libra-Capricorn luminaries.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:55 pm

TheScales_BothWays wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:36 pm I notice that a few minor traits mentioned in the older interpretations didn't make it to the updated one. In particular, these traits, which I think are still accurate (at least for me):

Thanks for this feedback! - BTW, everything you asked about is actually in the new version, but a little different. (Every single line for each sign was taken apart, dismantled, looked at anew, and, if it survived, put back in play with a fresh way of saying it.)

Social adjustment problems. Key difficulties to overcome before they are comfortable relating socially.
It did take me a while to get more open and social with people. My Venus-themed solar return back in 2015 was certainly a strong catalyst for that.

I went back and forth on this during the rewrite. I think this is an example of something that's true with most signs: None of us starts out in life skilled at things, and when you're not good at your core sign themes, you feel it more. Virgos can't stand feeling stupid or not knowing things, because knowing things (being repositories and conduits of information) is the basis of who we are. Aries will feel it deeply when they don't feel powerful, in control, with their egos admired because those things are basic to who they are. And so forth.

So, all of us start out socially awkward and unsure; but to some, it's not a big deal. To Libra, though, it's a knife in the gut. You feel it strongly. - And I can't say, from examples available to me, that Libras are any more socially awkward (as a group) than any other sign type (as a group) - and far less so than some because, y'know, you have better instincts about it. Also, most of my examples of Libra Sun fitting this were young - this was only really true when they were young. I wrote that observation originally when I was in my early 20s and most of the people I knew well at the time, and had observed over time, I had known before they hit 20.

In any case, I did put the above in the current list, as the following: "Initially self-conscious about their relatability and sexuality. (Afraid they "won't know what to do," vulnerable to rejection: the relationship theme is so vital to their souls.)"

I also moved "Relationship Centered" to the top spot to emphasize it as a neutral characteristic - which shows a "sensitivity" when it isn't satisfied. (Same as, say, Aries' ego or Capricorn's autonomy or Cancer's dreaming).

Non-profound relationships (which, however, are profound to them!).
I agree with this. After all, I've had huge crushes on two guys solely/primarily because of their looks. It could be my age though, and my double-rim luminaries.

It's there as an affirmative. Instead of saying "no profound relationships," it says, "Chooses security over depth in relationships."

You're right youth and Rim lean that way. Part of the thinking during rewrite: If you tell someone, "You don't have profound relationships but you think you do," what does that really mean to them? What are they going to say to that? The best they can come back with is half-agreement, "Yes, I do think I have deep relationships," and then feel a little insulted about the other half.

- Don't go out much... would rather stick to "home territory." Fond of their homes... a comfortable, pleasant place to retreat. It just seems that they are never at home.
- Busy-ness. When not at home they maintain a rather full, hectic schedule. Always has schedule full of things to do.
Not that sure about the "don't go out much" part but yes, we Librans do appear to be very busy (and that we're never at home) and we tend to be so when we're at work or school, but we love being at home too. I love relaxing at home (in my room especially), and quarantine has shown me that it takes quite a bit for me to get bored staying at home. I may miss my friends and miss having social interaction, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm bored staying at home. And the internet fulfils a lot of my entertainment needs. Though I'm sure my leisure-loving angular Jupiter has some influence on this too.

The rewrite says, "Enjoys comfortable, peaceful surroundings (a "nice" lifestyle)." That's all I could confirm (on the 70-80% rule I use: nothing gets listed unless 70-80% of people in my sample have the trait). I thought the original sounded too much like what I nice, comfy, relaxed, peaceful that I can see a lot of Libras arranging for in their homes.

They aren't in the "here and now." Libra is phased into the FUTURE. (They phase into an Alpha-state with very little effort - feel more comfortable there.)
The "alpha-state" is mentioned in the updated interpretations, but not the part about being phased into the future. Indeed I very much am so, especially when I'm alone in my room. A lot of times I would just think of myself being in the future (albeit the near-future, like the next 5-10 or 15 years) playing out situations in my head of where would I be then and what would I be doing. For example, I may imagine myself being a cheerful, social youth in a big gay-friendly city somewhere (gosh, that sounds depressing once I typed it out lol) or handling workplace situations in a job I think I would be in. My angular Jupiter-Neptune square surely must have a strong influence on this as well.

Though I am more of a "here-and-now" person when I'm working on something (like a task or an assignment) or when I am assessing a situation, when I am disillusioned with something, and when I am introspecting, which could reflect the Saturn dignity in my Libra-Capricorn luminaries.

The last thing you mentioned was part of the back-and-forth I went through: As a Saturn constellation, there's something very practical about Libra. (There's another complicated reason I think all the "Air" signs rebound that way.)

The future-leaning is there, though - in a more narrowly-defined way: "Optimistic futurist. Blithely confident of a better world ("new dawn") ahead. Personal and social idealism ("It's going to get better")." Isn't that basically what you said immediately above? I think it's more specific (and accurate).

TheScales_BothWays · Post by **TheScales_BothWays** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:54 pm

Thank you so much for the reply, Jim. I find it so insightful.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:55 pm Thanks for this feedback! - BTW, everything you asked about is actually in the new version, but a little different. (Every single line for each sign was taken apart, dismantled, looked at anew, and, if it survived, put back in play with a fresh way of saying it.)

Yes, I can see it now, thanks to your explanation.

I went back and forth on this during the rewrite. I think this is an example of something that's true with most signs: None of us starts out in life skilled at things, and when you're not good at your core sign themes, you feel it more. Virgos can't stand feeling stupid or not knowing things, because knowing things (being repositories and conduits of information) is the basis of who we are. Aries will feel it deeply when they don't feel powerful, in control, with their egos admired because those things are basic to who they are. And so forth.

So, all of us start out socially awkward and unsure; but to some, it's not a big deal. To Libra, though, it's a knife in the gut. You feel it strongly.

This is so insightful, Jim and it explains a lot! Yes I have felt bad for not being social in social settings, like I could be missing out on having a good time and making new connections or developing existing ones.

Also, most of my examples of Libra Sun fitting this were young - this was only really true when they were young.

Yes I agree that this more true for younger Libras.

In any case, I did put the above in the current list, as the following: "Initially self-conscious about their relatability and sexuality. (Afraid they "won't know what to do," vulnerable to rejection: the relationship theme is so vital to their souls.)"

Aha, right. And this is a better way to put it.

Part of the thinking during rewrite: If you tell someone, "You don't have profound relationships but you think you do," what does that really mean to them? What are they going to say to that? The best they can come back with is half-agreement, "Yes, I do think I have deep relationships," and then feel a little insulted about the other half.

True, and as a Libra I get you, haha.

The rewrite says, "Enjoys comfortable, peaceful surroundings (a "nice" lifestyle)." That's all I could confirm (on the 70-80% rule I use: nothing gets listed unless 70-80% of people in my sample have the trait).

Got it, and I understand the 70% rule.

The future-leaning is there, though - in a more narrowly-defined way: "Optimistic futurist. Blithely confident of a better world ("new dawn") ahead. Personal and social idealism ("It's going to get better")." Isn't that basically what you said immediately above? I think it's more specific (and accurate).

Yes it is basically the same. I now see that what I said could be a more "personal" expression of the "optimistic futurist" and idealism theme.

Once again, I thank you so much, Jim for your awesome reply. I have a clearer understanding of Libra's themes now.

Venus_Daily · Post by **Venus_Daily** » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:55 pm

For the less healthy examples, this pattern of social exclusion of what they instinctively feel is true about themselves - a deep self-loathing develops. (I think the word loathing is not too strong, and speaks to the depths of their darkness). Everything we see in these shadow examples, I think, is rooted in the magnitude of their self-loathing.

Libra males have been in the spotlight more often due to the social upheaval. I'm seeing a lot of straight men with Libra suns or Libra Stelleniums not even involving the sun who can't accept themselves become very maladjusted and "transition" to live as women, yet remain maladjusted. I don't often see this with Tauras suns, think Donald Trump and a guy that I dated. Maybe it's the Saturn aspect in Libra.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:04 pm

Perhaps... I wonder if it's the Rim side, though. Back when gender-transition was quite rare, all the people I actually knew had Rim luminaries. If this holds up, I'd attribute it to their "living on the outside," more responsive to the surface of thing than their depths. - Taurus, being Hub, lives from its depths, not its surface.

A lot of people in feel the strong presence of a different or additional gender in themselves but don't feel the need to make their bodies match it. I suspect needing that is the distinguishing trait.

By Jove · Post by **By Jove** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:16 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:04 pm Perhaps... I wonder if it's the Rim side, though. Back when gender-transition was quite rare, all the people I actually knew had Rim luminaries. If this holds up, I'd attribute it to their "living on the outside," more responsive to the surface of thing than their depths. - Taurus, being Hub, lives from its depths, not its surface.

A lot of people in feel the strong presence of a different or additional gender in themselves but don't feel the need to make their bodies match it. I suspect needing that is the distinguishing trait.

What if someone has a Rim Sun and Hub Moon, or a Hub Sun and Rim Moon? How does the surfaces-depths dynamic play out?

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:23 am

It's a mix. - I find it most convenient btw, when the luminaries are in different Quadruplicities, to focus on what's missing: Both of your examples I would think of first as no Spoke.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:14 pm

Today it was announced that Alexander de Croo will be the new Prime Minister of Belgium. He is born on Nov 3, 1975, Vilvoorde, Belgium. Time unknown.
Sun and Moon in Libra both aspecting Venus and a Stellium Libra.

What is quite interesting in regard to Sun in Libra and gender equality is that he has written a book called The Age of Women: Why Feminism Also Liberates Men.

Summary:
The future is now—and it is female. Women and women's rights are the key to progress. We believe in the West that we have already solved gender issues; it is the rest of the world that still has a problem. Nothing could be further from the truth! We have to do better. Through his work as Deputy Prime Minister and Belgian Minister of International Development, Alexander De Croo has discovered that the role of women worldwide is filled with too little opportunity and too much bias. In this book, he makes an impassioned plea for gender equality with data and stories to demonstrate the far-reaching benefits.

I thought this may be of interest to post it here and imo really fits the Libra profile.
Regards,
Flo

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:21 pm

By Jove · Post by **By Jove** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:05 pm

One thing I noticed is more general among Rims. They tend to be faster, more aggressive, and flashier in their behavior and work. Probably I know this best among chess grandmasters and their playing styles.

Rim grandmasters, especially Libras Alekhine and Tal, were very brilliant and aggressive players. Their games involved big sacrifices and convoluted positions that utterly dominate their opponents. Capricorn Spassky also exerted this power over Aquarius Fischer during the early rounds of their world championship match.

Hub grandmasters are the opposite. Each one I know (Taurus Steinitz and Karpov, Scorpios Capablanca and Carlsen, Aquarius Fischer) focus more on positional subtleties. They're comparatively "boring", but their calm endurance of even the most tracherous positions is incredible. Opponents tend to peter out and make small mistakes that Hub grandmasters chip through; this especially applies to Scorpio Carlsen.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:09 pm

Wonderful observations.