Welcome to the Angular Jupiter discussion project, which will run April 18-May 1, 2021 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Jupiter Angular people (especially those you know personally) and join us.
CRITERA: Planets within 7° of major angles (Asc-Dsc, MC-IC) and 2° of minor angles (Zenith-Nadir, EP-WP). Ideally (i.e., if you can), please assess proximity to horizon and meridian in prime vertical longitude, squares to MC and Asc in longitude, and RA contact to EP and WP in right ascension.
My current concise summary of Angular Jupiter reads:
Positive, optimistic, oriented to the good and qualitative. Authoritative, strives for expertise and leadership. Unusually lucky. Aspires to (enjoys) life of leisure and its perks (seeks to improve self and conditions). Generous, congenial, tolerant, good-humored, kind. Sexually giving. Needs esteem and inclusion (usually well received; can be overly role-conscious). Responds to cultural totems, heritage, tradition, social graces, social and ceremonial rituals. Champion of justice and fair play. (If afflicted: air of superiority, judgmental, greedy, envious; making own luck through shady ethics or crime.)
This site is quite Jupiter-rich! People active on this forum with Jupiter angular include:
Arena
Danica
FlorencedeZ
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Soft Alpaca
sotonye
SteveS
The Scales Both Ways
Veronica
To these we can add significant astrologers Alfred Witte, Anna-Kria King, Dane Rudhyar, Joanne Stonnell (Clancy), Kenneth Irving, Michel Gauquelin, and Noel Tyl. There is a HUGE list of U.S. Presidents (and, remember, those not born with angular Jupiter tend to have it angular in Washington). - The list below has few celebrities, but that's probably just how I collated my study list since Jupiter angular is the most common planet for eminent actors.
Some famous people with Jupiter angular:
Emperor Akihito, Queen Mary I , Queen Elizabeth II, Pres. Martin Van Buren, Pres. James Buchanan, Pres. James K. Polk, Pres. Ulysses S. Grant, Pres. Rutherford B. Hayes, Pres. William McKinley, Pres. William H. Taft, Pres. Theodore Roosevelt, Pres. Lyndon B. Johnson, Pres. George H.W. Bush, Pres. George W. Bush
Prince Harry, Prince William, Sec. Pete Buttigieg, Sen. John McCain, Sen. Mitt Romney
Courtney Cox, Woody Allen,
Johnny Carson,
Dane Rudhyar, Kenneth Irving, Michel Gauquelin, Noel Tyl, Joanne Stonnell
Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, Ted Bundy, O.J. Simpson
Aleister Crowley, Timothy Leary, John D. Rockefeller
Besides the forum members and famous people listed above, I have a list of 20 other people I knew/know sufficiently well with Jupiter angular by the above criteria. I'll recheck everything against these examples. (Some of those I personally knew overlap with the famous; specifically, the astrologers named and Timothy Leary.) The rest are private acquaintances, including a former mate of several decades and several business associates.
I don't want to over-dwell on distinctions of the various angles, but (after what was found in earlier studies) I'm at least going to take a glance.
I don't see much difference between Asc and Dsc except that I could consent to thinking Dsc less likely to own and wholly identify with the principle (and a little more likely to be humbler and more soft-spoken in their presentation - though with some notable exceptions). Jupiter Asc is more likely to affirm a sense of self-importance by how they carry themselves, Jupiter Dsc is more quiet about it. (I think the difference is presentation only, not a matter of how important they actually consider themselves.)
MC/IC is a less obvious difference. Four U.S. presidents stand out on IC, and a lot of soft graciousness, but MC doesn't lack this.
Zenith-Nadir, again not much. Interestingly both groups share some strong examples of a trait that appears here and there with Jupiter anyway: Wanting to be known as an expert.
EP-WP isn't a big difference where I know the character, but it's interesting (but on a small list) that all the presidents and a monarch (plus the "King of Late Night") appear on EP, no such people on WP in this list.
So it may be true that, as with other planets, there is here a tendency to more affirmatively identify with the planet at the positive pole of an angle axis, and less likely to openly do it on the negative pole. But this isn't a strong effect and probably shouldn't dominate our discussion.
I am not too sure but one thing I have strongly observed in people with Jupiter angular is the need to feel needed, to be important to someone and if there is no such validation the person may become arrogant.
Also, in taking action, the Jupiter angular person waits, people should come to him/her first.
Famous examples of Jupiter foreground from my example chart catalogue:
Pres. Ulysses S. Grant, Pres. Rutherford B. Hayes, Pres. William H. Taft, Pres. William McKinley, Pres. Theodore Roosevelt, Pres. George W. Bush, King George VI, Queen Elizabeth II, Catherine de Medici, Czar Alexander I, PM Hendrik Verwoerd, Chiang Kai-Shek, Pope Benedict XVI, Mary, Queen of Scots, Queen Anne, Queen Consort Caroline, Chief Justice William Rehnquist, Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, Sec. Condoleezza Rice, Sec. Pete Buttigieg, Margot Honecker, Sen. John McCain, Sen. John Glenn, Rep. Liz Cheney, Edith Wilson, Laura W. Bush, Gov. Chris Christie, Heinrich Himmler, Mayor Tom Bradley
Marlon Brando, Montgomery Clift, James Dean, Alan Hale Jr., Jim Backus, Marcel Marceau, Gene Wilder, Lenny Bruce, Dustin Hoffman, Christopher Reeve, Michael J. Fox, Willem Dafoe, Kenneth Branagh, Clara Bow, Mary Astor, Mae West, Greta Garbo, Janet Gaynor, Jayne Mansfield, Phyllis Diller, Polly Bergen, Anne Baxter, Carol Burnett, Sharon Tate, Jane Fonda, Goldie Hawn, Candace Bergen, Linda Lovelace, Carol Kane, Bo Derek, Kathy Bates, Julia Child, Carmen Electra, Jasmine Guy, Lisa Kudrow, Bonnie Langford, Lisa Edelstein, Meryl Streep, Salome Jens, Meg Tilly, Nicole Kidman, Rosie O'Donnell, Whoopi Goldberg, Winona Ryder, Rita Wilson, Gayle King, Rona Barrett
Tony Kushner, Joan Ganz Cooney, Oliver Stone, Martha Graham, Julie Taymor, Jules Verne, Gene Roddenberry, George Lucas
Jerry Lee Lewis, Steve Allen, Richard Carpenter, Bob Marley, Harry Chapin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Isaac Hayes, Jimmy Page, George Michael, will.I.am, Luciano Pavarotti, John Legend, JoJo, Maria Von Trapp, Ella Fitzgerald, Janet Baker, Kathleen Battle, Judy Garland, Liza Minnelli, Olivia Newton-John, Bette Midler, Naomi Judd, Amy Winehouse, Johannes Brahms, Maurice Jarre, Nathalie Stutzmann, Col. Tom Parker
Percy Bysshe Shelley, Louisa May Alcott, George Eliot, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Faulkner, Ken Kesey, Joyce Carol Oates. Christine Angot, Lois Lowry, Erica Jong
Edgar Degas, Vincent Van Gogh
Arnold Palmer, Dorothy Hamill, Bobby Fischer, Steffi Graf
Sally Ride, Eleanor Smeal, Phyllis Lyon, Franz Hartmann, Mary Greer, Joan of Arc, Martin Luther King, Sri Aurobindo, Swami Vivekananda, Olga Wormser, Phyllis Schlafly
Aaron Kosminski, Ted Bundy, James Huberty, Charles Manson, O.J. Simpson
Thomas Henry Huxley, George Boole, Louis Braille, Paul Janssen, Albert Hoffman, Timothy Leary, Richard Alpert, Jean Piaget, Margaret Mead, R.D. Laing, Roberto Assagioli, Rollo May, Guglielmo Marconi, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, Carl Sagan
Arthur H. Blackwell, Kenneth Irving, Matthew Quellas, Marsilio Ficino, Michel Gauquelin, Alfred Witte, Reinhold Ebertin, Linda Goodman, Noel Tyl
The list immediately above has some wonderful discoveries waiting if you dig. The figures are SO famous - so celebrated - that in many cases one things their celebrity is the main feature (but it's not that simple). Wandering the list, you can find clusters of people that snap a connection into place or give you a feeling of how the planet operates. A few observations:
A large selection of powerful, distinguished politicians including several U.S. presidents - the number of presidents with Jupiter angular natally OR at Washington is huge. Also British monarchs - only a few are listed but nearly every monarch of the current dynasty could have been listed.
Actors - OMG, what a list! (Gauquelin did find that Jupiter on an angle was the astrological hallmark of actors over all.) There is so much celebrity here but, especially, truly gifted (not merely celebrity) actors of enormous stage and film power. Men on the list include the trio of Brando, Clift, and Dean, the perennial genius of Dustin Hoffman, and more recent genius as Kenneth Branagh and Willem Dafoe. The women, after a long list of classic greats, includes no less than Meryl Streep, Salome Gens, Nicole Kidman, and Whoopi Goldberg.
We most often cite the malefics for humor, but the raw humor genius on the list (perhaps in the sense of power to entertain) is evident in some of the greats of my child hood in particular. Both Alan Hale Jr. and Jim Backus, Gene Wilder, Lenny Bruce, Phyllis Diller, Carol Burnett, Goldie Hawn, Whoopi Goldberg again - you could probably add Julia Child for raw power to entertain. There is much more feel good humor in this set than the usual Saturn and Mars humor.
That the names Jules Verne, Gene Roddenberry, and George Lucas could appear on the same list of an astrological feature is extraordinary.
That the names Albert Hoffman, Timothy Leary, and Richard Alpert, could appear on the same list of an astrological feature is extraordinary. I think Sri Aurobindo and Swami Vivekananda belong with them as well. As much as Verne, Roddenberry, and Lucas, these men led us into exploring space travel on our own, but inner space rather than outer.
Music considers the run of success, power, and power to entertain. Nothing stodgy here - these are people who drove innovation forward, from Jerry Lee Lewis and Bob Marley to will.I.am and John Legend, from Ella Fitzgerald and Judy Garland (and her daughter) to Bette Midler and others. Don't forget that Steve Allen invented The Tonight Show, launching an entirely new genre of important, persisting TV entertainment. Look at the run of late '60s to early '80s figures and find your own adjectives.
Even the murderers tend to be celebrity murderers. (All of them but Huberty were celebrity enough and interesting enough that they could have appeared on The Tonight Show, except it would have been too gruesome.)
Dustin Hoffman played Lenny Bruce. Meryl Streep played Julia Child. There are probably others.
Is it too much to call Carl Sagan the Julia Child of science? I think not.
I've been reflecting on Jupiter's nature lately, trying to warm myself up for the serious assault on updating (or even rewriting) the angular Jupiter section soon.
I'm trying to decide whether there is a significant piece I've slid away from in my years (decades, really) of trying to escape Tropical-infused biases.
Planets are not a place where there should be significant difference between Tropical and Sidereal authors. The planets are the area where astrologers across the board agree most. While this astrologer or that (or this school of astrology or that) may have additional planets some others don't use, we can broadly say that pretty much everybody accepts the relevance of Sun, Moon, and eight planets and that, for the most part, we interpret them the same.
Sure, there are differences. Pluto is the worst, since it still carries baggage of the earliest decades after its discovery (and Tropical astrologers since then have attached it to Scorpio and expect every Tropical Scorpio and 8th house theme to fit Pluto). There are also differences that come from emphasizing the Planet = Sign = House approach (which has Venus laden with money ideas and Uranus considered a social planet, and Sun related to gambling and recreation, etc.). But, compared to other things, these differences aren't many (proportionately).
The planet symbolism errors that have become hardest to dislodge (except for Pluto) are where a century or two or Tropical astrologers have derived planet ideas from the (Tropical) signs they rule. We, of course, are at risk of this, too, and I feel I'm walking on bubble wrap every time I suggest that we look at what we know of Sun-Saturn and Sun-Mars aspects to see if there are any ideas that check out against Sun in Capricorn (for instance). It's very hard to keep these sorted out when you're sure that something is basic and can be trusted.
So... sticking with really, really good, smart, objective astrologers... we find that Charles Carter in The Principles of Astrology wrote that "Jupiter has much to do with sports, hunting, athletics..." Admittedly, it's his last paragraph as if it was maybe a tag-on that he felt he had to include - it wasn't basic to the body of his description of Jupi8ter - but it was there. There is a lot in Tropicalist ideas of Jupiter that has to do with the great outdoors and hunting, sports of all sorts, and the idea of freedom (usually wrapped in with the words "expansion" via "open spaces"). Yet, aren't both freedom and this whole package of hunting and athletics the essence of Mars? Yes, they certainly are. We can see his connection: When he later speaks of Sagittarius in detail, he quotes the favored view that Sagittarians have "a great love of outdoor life, sports, and athletics" - note the exact same words in the same sequence. Furthermore, these are legitimate descriptions of Tropical Sagittarius which, for the most part, is Sidereal Scorpio! Of course Tropical Sag is martial: It's really Scorpio misnamed.
And then these ideas carried over to Jupiter.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the pond, Llewellyn George, in the 1923 edition of A to Z, called Sun in Sagittarius, "active, enterprising, frank, outspoken, honest," etc., "loves liberty and freedom and out-of-doors sports... generally has a strong will... earnest... energetic." I'm picking and choosing, but aren't these a wonderful description of the martial personality? Of course they are. (Except there is more a sense of fun and honor, something martials don't get enough credit for). Interestingly, LG didn't give similar "outdoors fun" and freedom-liberty themes when he interpreted Sun aspecting Jupiter or Jupiter in the 1st house, which suggests that these came primarily from observation.
Considering all of this, one of the earliest things I did in the '70s when I started reconsidering the nature of the planets was to throw all of this out. The idea of "Jupiter is big" was, well, overly inflated, and this led to suspicions about any reference to Jupiter and growth other than in the pure sense of prosperity and bounty. I was strongly - decisively! - influenced by the "Kid Gloves" treatment of Jupiter and what I carried most away from that is the sense of social propriety and need to become (or at least be seen as) the "best." Jupiter the aristocrat (unless afflicted or in sharp conflict with actual life conditions, in which case it became Jupiter as envy or Jupiter the crook).
My current working thumbnail of the Jupiter personality continues to ride on its orientation to the good and qualitative, aspiring to a life of leisure and its perks (seeking to improve self and conditions), needing esteem and inclusion, overly role-conscious, attentive to totems, heritage, tradition, social graces, and social and ceremonial rituals, with a strong sense of entitlement. There's more to it - and all of these things seem correct - but that was the main stepping stone for most of the Jupiter ideas I coalesced.
My next layering in was when I fully embraced the statistically demonstrable character traits from the Gauquelin research, which showed that people tended to describe angular Jupiter types with ways more tightly connected to ambition, worldliness, ambition and opportunism, etc. Because I knew (and had examples of) other types - nearly monastic sorts who were introverted and focused on beliefs and ideas - I concluded that (like Sheldon's viscerotonic type, which is a strong match to Jupiter) the Jupiter type had different styles depending on what one valued most - with a tendency to throw oneself into whatever that was and succeed in it. Some were materially oriented, so they became materially successful; some weren't, and went other directions.
But I think I've missed something; or, rather, dismissed something along the way that I used to know (but from books, not because I found it myself). It isn't the freedom aspect (that's clearly a Mars and Uranus thing, and Jupiter too easily binds itself to expectations and connections). It's not athletics per se, though the idea of the hunt (and sport in general) exists as a distant theme under the broad heading of "what people with money and abundant leisure do with their time." Probably travel (a demonstrably Jupiter theme) also has a lot of the leisure activity quality... but it also has more (see below). Moon in Sagittarius certainly has a strong aviation theme, Sun in Sagittarius has some of the most widely travelled people this side of Pisces, but I also see this on a large block of angular Jupiter people.
Where my mind has been going is the specific Jupiter-Saturn that centers on "food in, feces out." Garth Allen very effectively showed the anchoring of Jupiter themes in us to initial nursing, as Saturn to toilet training. In today's developmental models, in addition to relating Moon to the entirety of early childhood, I'd link the Erikson stage 1 of trust-building (based on caretaking, nursing, etc.) to Venus and Jupiter, and the will-forging on the musculo-skeletal and elimination trainings of stage 2 to Mars and Saturn. Regardless... I have long thought (but perhaps not thought deeply enough) about how Saturn is elimination and Jupiter assimilation - how Saturn is excretion and Jupiter accretion.
This is on point to my current explorations and rethinking. The thing I am now wondering if I've wrongly overlooked is a view of leading Tropicalists thinkers that Jupiter relates to our interaction with an ever-expanding world, an expansion of our reach and exposure. (Or it may be something not quite that: but that idea is a starting point.) These ideas would rest on a Jupiter theme of taking things in that is different from the absorption themes of Moon, Venus, and even Neptune, but not entirely divorced from them - and particularly similar to the lunar feeding theme.
I'm writing this out as a note to myself and to stimulate thought (and, if you wish, discussion consistent with the current thread's purpose), and as a reference point as I chip away at it.
I suppose I need to go back and read "Kid Gloves" on Jupiter again. I just checked Fagan's summary of Jupiter in the "Thingish Thought" chapter of Astrological Origins, and he almost entirely relates it to the quality theme I've made central to my treatment of Jupiter - the pros and cons of aristocratic caste systems, so to speak. Ken Bowser follows similar lines. Siderealists haven't really dwelt on other aspects too much, and I've followed suit.
The word accretion is interesting. It can mean to grow simply as a natural process, though it's most used to mean "to grow by addition," specifically by joining with and assimilating with other things, so it has the "taking in" themes and also the "joining" themes. In biology it especially means the merging of separate living things into a single thing, as when two plants grow together, so it has an inherent "coming together" and even community-building or civilizing characteristic. At the moment, it's my new favorite Jupiter word (though I'm pretty sure Bradley used it, at least in passing, in "Kid Gloves").
I have completed the rewrite of Jupiter Foreground. Thank you all for your participation from the start of this project. You can read the final full treatment in detail here: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... p=187#p187
The summary words are: Enjoyment, Ambition, Inclusion
Here is the new summary:
Upbeat, enjoys the good in life. Needs to be liked (important to someone). Ambitious: needs esteem, inclusion, recognition as expert. Judgmental, strong sense of personal entitlement. Aspires to (enjoys) life of leisure and civilization's fruits. Unusually lucky. Generous, kind, inclusive, hospitable. Responds to cultural totems, heritage, rituals, social graces. Faithful to communities embodying their culture. Champion of justice and what's right. Entertaining. (If afflicted: Air of superiority, greed, envy; makes own luck through shady ethics or crime.)
Last bumped by Jim Eshelman on Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:07 am.
