Me and Appy

[James Condor]

‘Appy’ is a female I met on the 11th of April.
I would like interpretations of our charts
Anything stand out? What does this relationship look like?

Appy- 12/7/1972 6p Valparaiso, Indiana
Me- 1/9/84 11:28a Valparaiso, Indiana (current)
Harvey, Illinois (POB)
Thanks

[SteveS]

A quick first impression comparison glance: Using only partile/tight aspects to your natal angles, Appy's natal Jupiter partile conjuncts your Natal MC, and her Natal Uranus 1,05 conjuncts your Natal DSC. Appy's Natal Moon Jupiter conjunction is all over your Natal MC.

A quick first impression glance at the composite chart: Moon-Venus are the closest angular planets with a Sun-Jupiter conjunction in the 7th house of relationships. Her birth time must be AA rated to trust the angles in a composite chart.

I assume this is a new developing relationship timed with your Solar Arc hits pertaining to your Natal Venus-- relationships? Very benefit relationship/composite charts, imo!

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve caught some of the really amazing stuff that gives a good, upbeat, positive impression (BTW, weren't you born in Harvey?)

To stretch this out a bit...

In addition to her Jupiter-Uranus so very exactly conjoined your angles, her Moon is on your MC and shares Sagittarius with your Sun. Moon-angle and (even by sign) Moon-Sun are some of the strongest compatibility signals between two people. Her Sun a few degrees from your Uranus reinforces the Uranus from her, gives the sense that there is something new and fresh and interesting here: If this relationship is for the long-haul, it will "always feel new" in key ways as it ages (and a key to its vitality will be feeding this "always something new" character).

Her Venus-Mars conjunction is on your Saturn. This is tough. In most chart comparisons, this would eventually kill the relationship, create conflict, some form of you restricting, blocking, and shutting down her enormous sexuality; but that Moon-angle and Moon-Sun plus her double benefics on your angles makes this no ordinary relationship, so you have resources together to change this outcome (likely having elements of dutiful caretaking, struggling conjointly for things, etc. - solutions unique to the two of you).

Appy seems a quite remarkable woman in her own right. She's likely been successful in her life path and career. She needs much control in her life and over her circumstances. Within this, she's generous, kind, and hospitable.

[James Condor]

Thank you both for replying. I was born in Harvey, Illinois.

So, on the positive side, we hit it off extremely well. We both thought it was magical and dreamlike when we first met. It was the closest thing to fate I’ve experienced. We both pretty much fell in love very quickly. We both were very impressed and excited about our future. We spend Allot of time together and talking on the phone in only two weeks. We have similar values and life philosophy. She is into tropical astrology. She is eccentric. We are very similar. She is accomplished. She can be kind, generous and fun. It has been intense.

Note: She seems much more laid back when it’s just her and I alone as opposed to being in public inside a place.

On the negative side, she didn’t honor our plans a few times. She didn’t meet me on time after agreeing to and it makes me think she is selfish and/or private. But, I did give her the benefit of the doubt and moved on from this particular issue. We have talked about it and I needed to tell her how I felt about that sooner.

We wanted to honor our expectations of taking it slow and one night, we both agreed that we went too far in breaking this trust. We are both responsible for this. I’m also kind flexible. I didn’t hold it against us really.

She is sexy, attractive, very symmetrical face. She is curvy and older than me, and I am not used to it. She doesn’t look much older than me. She looks youthful. And she did admit, as did I later on, we both are/were a little insecure about our age difference. We need to learn more about each other.

She is more rigid, critical than I’m used to. Sensitive, touchy (about somethings) and domineering (competitive, strong presence). She knows she talks allot and over people. Her image (in public) is important to her more so than mine. She is quite conscious of her image and reputation. She is a perfectionist. She has strong opinions and doesn’t mind pushing the envelope with controversial topics that can cause debate. She needs to better allow others to just be. As do I. She over steps boundaries (as do I, but I’m much more positive). She got upset at me for ‘interrupting’ her when I was only trying to have conversation.
She has high expectations. Social striver. Competitive.

We got into a fight over some miscommunication last time we spent together. She didn’t like my tone and facial expression. She thought I was being controlling and judgmental. She completely overreacted and ruined the night out. I tried to make peace right away, and she didn’t accept because she was too upset (over me not being 100% supportive! She expects too much!).
I really am not a controlling person, but I can see that if she is sensitive,as we all are (she takes herself seriously!) then I suppose I went from being supportive in the beginning, to cautious, slamming on the breaks.

Then later, the same night I told her I wanted to understand why she reacted so strongly. Big mistake! She went off on me and called me names, and so then I refused to drive her home.
She doesn’t live far so she walked. I was too upset to say anything and pretend everything was fine. I was shocked. It took me a few days to get over it.

I see things from many different perspectives, and if it’s meant to be, it’ll work out. She isn’t exactly my type and I don’t think I’m hers. But whatever.

She sent me a text the next day apologizing and we forgive each other. Well, I’m working on that. It’ll take some time. I miss her but I want to have peace in my life more than anything.
She said we can still be friends. I agreed. We’ll see.

We really do need forgive and forget, which we are working on and have talked about. I’ll see how it goes.

[SteveS]

James wrote:

It was the closest thing to fate I’ve experienced.

Very interesting! Solar Arcs were labeled “Co-Determinants of Fate” by the German Schools of Astrology who played a big part in developing the teachings of Solar Arcs.
James wrote:

On the negative side…

It becomes obvious for the “negative side” of this relationship you are experiencing with Appy, her natal Mars partile conjunct your Natal Saturn in your 7th house of relationships offers valid astrological symbolism. You were born with rough astrological symbolism in your 7th house of relationships with Mars-Saturn-Pluto. Maybe a good lesson here is to always check how the natal planets of a close relationship interacts with the planets in your 7th house for a heads-up. Thanks for the feedback James, it helps with my learning curve with Solar Arcs.

[Jim Eshelman]

James, thanks for sharing such personal details about this. It seems your Saturn on her Venus-Mars has already manifested quite strongly. Your charts together are a contrast of remarkably positive, desirable connections and this one difficult combination.

Her natal chart similarly has two starkly contrasting factors that some people might regard as extremes of positive and negative: I don't, because I'm sure she's folded both factors together in building the woman she has become. I speak of her two close, dynamic, luminary involved, angular aspects: her Scorpio Sun opposite Saturn (square MC) and Moon conjunct Jupiter (straddling Descendant). Separately, these have contrasts: She is genuinely generous, giving, kind, good-humored AND has powerful needs for control and to manage her own survival. You said she's been successful: She's carved out her prosperity and success. Yet, I can see how these two factors may seem like a back and forth swing to you, especially since the comfy, relaxed Moon-Jupiter slides so smoothly into your own chart.

But there's also a third, equally important theme in her chart...

One thing you said in your last post says more to me than anything else, perhaps:

I miss her but I want to have peace in my life more than anything.

I assure you that this isn't what she wants most. The third factor in her chart, equal to the other two above, is her enormous passion. This isn't just sexual passion (though it is very much sexual passion). Her Scorpio Sun joined with a well-aspected, close Venus-Mars conjunction in Libra means that she thrives on surging, vibrant waves of emotion, surging like tides that crash hard on the beach, perhaps leaving her laughing joyously at how they blasted the beach. Furthermore, she surely wants a fellow "surfer" who can ride the surging waves with her.

Some of the details may be a little off, but I'm pretty sure the basic picture is right. It's easy for me recognize the type because it's always been my type - if the connection is strong and the trust is in place, the "ride" together can be outrageous.

I actually know someone born a couple of days earlier - Moon back in Scorpio - just a friend, and the ex-wife of another friend. Her angular patterns are different, so details change, but the fundamental truth of the passion (that demands both expression through her dynamism in the world and satisfaction of her physical and other needs) reigns supreme, equaled only by her need for control and (in her case) safety. (This other person is like Appy except without the Moon-Jupiter elements, an with double the Scorpio, but the same strong Sun-Saturn.)

So... my thoughts in response to your self-description is that if you want peacemore than anything else in your life, then this relationship won't work. She wants a vibrant, surging life, including wanting to be overwhelmed occasionally and surge with potent life-waves. She'll usually want this to be positive, giving, mutually joyous, but I think you'll find that she'd prefer negative, troublesome waves over no surging tides.

Much of what you call ego might simply be her need for control. No doubt she does have a strong ego (in the best and, perhaps, worst sense) in that she has an angular Hub Sun opposite Saturn. I'm not sure what her profession is, but I suspect it involves visibility and being visibly strong, effective, and "in the seat" in her community. This explains why, when out of the public eye, she relaxes that side with you and is gentler. But I think that, in public, her strength needs to be conspicuous.

[Jim Eshelman]

In case it helps with understanding her, here are a few notes on strong factors in her chart (not an integrated chart interpretation, just some notes on the parts). She’s a SCORPIO with a SAGITTARIUS style, costumed as a GEMINI.

ANGULAR PLANETS & ASPECTS
Jupiter opposite Ascendant (1°13')
Positive, optimistic, oriented to the good and qualitative. Authoritative, strives for expertise and leadership. Unusually lucky. Aspires to (enjoys) life of leisure and its perks (seeks to improve self and conditions). Generous, congenial, tolerant, good-humored, kind. Sexually giving. Needs esteem and inclusion (usually well received; can be overly role-conscious). Responds to cultural totems, heritage, tradition, social graces, social and ceremonial rituals. Champion of justice and fair play.

Moon opposite Ascendant (1°48')
Needs constant stimulation (of mind or senses). Responsive, adaptive, malleable to social, psychological, and environmental conditions. Strong sexual appetites; responsive to affection, friendship, sexual suggestion. Amiable, accommodating, good-hearted; sensitive, receptive, empathic, tender (touchy, moody, reactive). Vulnerable to judgments, displeasure, criticism. Natural before an audience (connected). Imaginative.

Moon conjunct Jupiter (2°57')
Ambitious, desires success, aspires to take the lead. A natural ‘host,’ likes to play ringmaster in all life areas including in social and sexual hospitality. Usually good-humored, entertaining, kind, generous. Drawn to quality, desires only the best (things and circumstances) for self and loved ones. Strong beliefs (often religious or patriotic intensity, moralistic, judgmental). Social elitism (possible feigned superiority, aristocratic conceit).

Moon square Eris (2°48')
Mischievous, curious, trickster, outlier, and disruptor: Naturally navigates the swarm of chaos more easily with practical advantage (but thus also leaves a wake of chaos, disrupting imposed orders and conditions, from having little native resistance to disorder). At best, finds new order in the incomprehensible, manages outlier possibilities.

Sun opposite Saturn (1°01')
Effective survivors, self-sufficient, hardworking, accomplishing. Accustomed to work, prefers private, modest accommodations. Not always good control on strong impulses, but generally very good control of small and medium-sized ones. Authority (likely paternal) issues to overcome. Serious; enjoy deep subjects; yet few have so good a sense of humor. Childhood hardships common, circumstances force early maturation.

Saturn square Midheaven (1°42')
Needs to be self-reliant, self-sufficient, autonomous, independent. Works hard, industrious. Survival instinct is strong and drives much of the behavior. Hardship likely (especially in youth); struggle for security; life’s demands seem severe (some are beaten down; some gain great strength and endurance). Cautious, emotionally reserved, self-protective, conscientious, methodical, austere (may shut others out emotionally). Beware self-restriction arising from fear.

MOON in SAGITTARIUS
Higher and higher (ambition, aspiring, climbing, flight). Seeks rank, leadership, respect. Gracious host, hospitality. Personal code (moral, religious, social, or rational “rightness”). Right and wrong, reward-punishment (judgmental). Enjoys civilization’s fruits. Dramatic (actors). Family ties, loyal to their society (community, church, team, class, nation, race).

SUN in SCORPIO
Strong drive, competitive (combative). Requires freedom of movement and thought. Sexually voracious. Persistent, powerful, innovative, insightful. Bold, moral courage, unbowed. Pragmatic. Thought leaders (not followers). Forthright, blunt. Wit, humor. Enjoys life. Slow to show weaknesses; collects others’ weaknesses.

MARS in LIBRA
Warm, sociable, likable. Independent, self-sufficient, survivors (slow to ask for help). Persistent, serious, intent. Interesting, odd (disreputable?), on the outskirts. Ego distinction prevails over ego-submersion (but wants marriage). Passion for social justice. Feminine thrives better than masculine (feminist). Women aggressively protect families, friends (power, impact).

Venus conjunct Mars (1°55')
Passion (in all senses), feels powerfully about things. Strong sexual passions mature early, continue late, rarely encumbered by too many conditions. Broadly fun-loving, socially active, loves romance: interesting, likable, sociable, horny people. Relationships, often picked for ferocity, easily hit conflict, strain, or burnout.

Mars sextile Jupiter (2°20')
Playful, strong, competitive, enterprising. Zest, vitality, enthusiasm, courage, confidence. Sexually lusty, eager, popular, on the hunt. Generous or extravagant (money flees). Bold with beliefs, evangelical (enthusiasts, missionaries, barnstormers).

MERCURY in SCORPIO
Outspoken, opinionated, candid. Enjoys mental/verbal competition (arguments or humor). Needs intellectual freedom, resists mainstream ideas and institutional thinking. Mind sharp, strong, strategic (fault-finding). Strains nervous system (nervous irritation). Good singing voice.

Mercury octile Eris (0°32')
Insight comes easily: Mind can manage vast arrays of data points, incorporating facts and evidence, leaping to significant, persistent success. A sassy, often unbounded “think-for-oneself” way through life (may use shock tactics to prove they think and act on their own). Promiscuous: persistently casual, diverse, and indiscriminate in sexual variety.

Mercury octile Jupiter (0°41')
Loves ideas and learning. Comfortable with words. Well-formed speech infers a good education. Good-tempered, kind; may seem shallow. Optimistic fervent thinking. Good business potential (from luck more than skill?). Always looking for the next opportunity or break.

VENUS in LIBRA
Relationship-focused. Polite, well-mannered, likable. Seeks active romantic-social life. Intense passions (but can deny themselves pleasure). Requires and gets loyalty and faithfulness (jealous, possessive). Secretive about sexual relationships. Vain (arousal linked to flattery). Loves beautiful things, luxury (spoiled). Mediators, negotiators, peacemakers.

OUTER PLANET ASPECTS
Uranus conjunct Pluto (1°55' mundo)
Feels unbound by precedent, custom, convention, or authority: willing to ignore, challenge, or forcibly reject them. Open to new ways, wider horizons; yet rarely disruptive without immediate cause. Physically restless, impatient (possibly frustrated, angry). Authenticity and creative self-expression arise best from solitude (vacuum). In youth, often seem directionless; this resolves as they find their center of gravity (especially after age 30).

Neptune sextile Pluto (1°13')
Open to shifting viewpoint, alternative perspectives, variant possibilities: Potential to forge a new worldview and enroll others. Uncertainty feeds desire for certainty, regarding things a certain way and not other.

Uranus octile Neptune (1°32')
Wanderlust, curious explorer, drawn to peer past horizons. Mythic, ritualistic sense of one’s position in the universal scheme. Knows that life and reality are weirder than anyone ever said. High-strung, sensitive.

[James Condor]

Thank you both for responding.

Yes, I shared with you very personal experiences because I think it’s necessary for astrologers to have as much information as possible.

I do not understand Jim, why she is “Disguised as a Gemini”

She is actually unemployed, in between advertising and management positions. She has a small business, which is not a full time up money making thing.

When I said I wanted peace, I mean, I need to learn how to be comfortable within myself and tolerate her for her. But she did verbally attack me and was quite mean. So idk if I could handle that. I don’t think anyone should put up with such emotional exaggeration and abuse. But I forgive people for slip ups. So

[Jim Eshelman]

I don’t not understand Jim, why she is “Disguised as a Gemini”

The Ascendant sign, which I rarely even bother to acknowledge, is the most superficial layer of our behavior. I analogize it to "the clothes we wear at the moment," a costuming, a pose or presentation we (mostly unconsciously) wear, Hers is Gemini.

It has seemed useful to summarize people as, "You are a SUN SIGN with a MOON SIGN style, dressed as an ASCENDANT SIGN."

[James Condor]

Ok, that’s what I thought I might have meant.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm hesitant to over-interpret Ascendant signs, but there is something I've observed about the contrast of Gemini rising and Sagittarius rising. It doesn't seem consistent with what you've said about Appy but I thought I'd mention it so you can confirm or otherwise.

Gemini rising people seem to have a "superficial superficiality," i.e., they seem to have behaviors designed to get people to take them less seriously. (Sometimes it's as simple as only saying serious things as if they are a joke or light-hearted so they can deny being serious about it if it doesn't go over well.) In contrast, Sagittarius rising people seem to have behaviors designed to make people take them oh-so-seriously.

These two can compete: I know several Gemini rising people with Sun in Sagittarius who don't show this superficial superficiality (it's hard for a Sagittarian not to want to be taken seriously). My friend the late Noel Tyl is a great example of this - he always want to express the grandest tone of people with an operatic scope and never to be taken unseriously (though he was entirely engaging and employed humor well).

I've seen this most in people I know personally but. It's hard to see unless you interact with people at the personal level. For example, Bill Gates (Gemini rising) has a playful side that makes his often dry, serious ideas come across: The first time we spent time with him, I walked away saying he's like a big kid in a toy store (but he owns the toy store). This isn't as evident in his public appearances. Rich Alpert (Ram Dass) had a very playful side in person and in some of his public work; I'm told the same was true of Einstein. One of the best public persona expressions of this is Jack Black. In contrast, looking at a list of public figures with Gemini rising that one doesn't know personally tends to have few patterns, though one can see a long list of really bright science-minded people (Gates and Einstein are joined by the like of Kepler and Fleming, for example).

Thoughts?

[James Condor]

Hmmm
I didn’t see anything to suggest she wanted people or me to take her less seriously.
She is youthful. She is childlike at times. Like a little girl picking flowers, enjoying nature. Like Little Red Riding Hood or Harley Quinn. Red lipstick, dresses in black often with leopard print. But also dresses causal. She has an innocence about her. She is nerdy. She seems to want to be childlike, playful, and wanted to avoid serious personal conversations with me, as if threatened. Immaturity?-ok not immaturity. Idk what

[Jim Eshelman]

Hmmm
She is youthful. She is childlike at times. Like a little girl picking flowers, enjoying nature. Like Little Red Riding Hood or Harley Quinn. Red lipstick, dresses in black often with leopard print. But also dresses causal. She has an innocence about her. She is nerdy. She seems to want to be childlike, playful, and wanted to avoid serious personal conversations with me, as if threatened. Immaturity.

This does sound a lot like what I've seen for Gemini rising: Not immature at all, but something in them feels safer if people take them less seriously.

All the red, of course, is the Scorpio Sun (and probably the leopard print, too: her badge as a Scorpio "cougar").

[James Condor]

I edited my original post. But I mean, she seemed much more like a social striver, like she needed approval or validation