Social Undermining

[James Condor]

I recently began working with someone who socially undermines me too often. Any of you experience this before? Before I give his birth info, can I get some guesses as to what planet(s) and/or configurations maybe most responsible.

[Jim Eshelman]

Without knowing more about his behavior, it's a little hard to (for example) distinguish between an afflicted Venus and an afflicted Jupiter. First impression from the words you picked is an afflicted, and not necessarily weak, Jupiter.

More broadly, there would be a balance more toward the distance / survival / individual planets like Saturn, Pluto, or Uranus, and away from the connecting / supporting social fabric and rituals Moon, Venus, and Jupiter. At tleast one of the former is likely quite strong, and one of the latter is likely moderate-to-strong and afflicted.

[Lance]

I'll give the most obvious guess. I'm betting he's got Saturn aspecting something of yours.

I kept raining on this one guy's parade at work - so often that I looked him up. Turns out my Saturn is opposite (1°18') his Uranus.

Gotta watch that.

[James Condor]

You are certainly correct Jim, Danica and Lance. Jim just showed us why and how astrology works by guessing correctly. The undermining individual is a Cancer-Sag-Libra. Sun partile Neptune. Let me check the synastry

[Jim Eshelman]

Can we have the actual birth data, please?

[James Condor]

Aug 1, 1982 Crown Point Indiana, unknown time

Our mars are both 4 degrees Libra. Almost exactly conjunct
His Saturn is square to my Sun 1.33
My Pluto is conjunct his Jupiter .16

[James Condor]

We compete with each other way too much. I am aware, he is not.

[Jim Eshelman]

Notice the afflicted Jupiter AND afflicted Venus - the first conjunct Mars, the second square Saturn, both close. This in addition to the double-Jupiter luminary signs.

[James Condor]

Yes.

[Jim Eshelman]

Come to think of it, we have a recent article here on that very subject:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=493

[Lance]

Notice the afflicted Jupiter AND afflicted Venus - the first conjunct Mars, the second square Saturn, both close. This in addition to the double-Jupiter luminary signs.

I understand the afflicted planets, but how does that tie in to the double-Jupiter luminary signs?

Kind of an in-your-face kind of person? (This is an introvert speaking here, so.)

[Jim Eshelman]

A Cancer-Sagittarius is going to have very heightened Jupiter-orientation (just like a Virgo such as myself is going to be especially characterized by however I express Mercury).

Therefore, how Jupiter is expressed - shown, especially, by such things as Jupiter's main aspects - is going to be especially important in understanding this person (just as knowing how I express Mercury is important to Virgo by myself that is so identified with my Mercury side).

[James Condor]

This subject is getting good and very interesting to me. I do vaguely recall reading about it before. Maybe a new thread should begin on it if it has not already. Anyways, I need to ask questions about it.
So let me get this straight. Each natal chart contains the planets, Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Each planet has its own nature, regardless of birth day. Now add more detail, the birthday, and say it is August 1, sun in Cancer. So now the same Jupiter, the only Jupiter, is in itself dignified in this native's Sun sign. The moon too, since Cancer. Add more detail and say the native's Jupiter is in aspect to Saturn and/or Mars, and Mercury and class 1-3. So does this native have Sun-Moon-Jupiter-Saturn-Mars-Mercury? Without going into more detail of other aspects, signs and foreground positions.

[Jim Eshelman]

I wouldn't string them together that much. For one thing, you lose fine distinctions in interpretation.

Sun+Moon and Sun+Jupiter are fair enough, and Jupiter+Saturn on its own merits. I wouldn't even necessarily go Sun-Moon-Jupiter, in a way that implies a Moon-Jupiter aspect. For example, Sun in Libra is not like a Venus-Saturn aspect; it's like Sun aspecting Venus AND Sun aspecting Saturn. But it doesn't have all the subtleties of Venus-Saturn (few, in fact).

There's an old astrological concept called translation of light. It means that if A aspects B, and A aspects C, light is "translated" from B to C, and it's as if they are in aspect. (That's the concept.) The longer I've been in astrology, the less I have embraced this idea of "translation of light." I think it's quite the contrary: the fact that B and C are not actually in aspect gives us a finer distinction, rather than joshing them all together.

[James Condor]

I do understand the seeing things in finer detail thing. But am still having trouble understanding the rest. So said person is very Jupiter oriented natally because of luminary signs, and his Jupiter is in aspect with Mars, so Mars-Jupiter. Jupiter, in his case is in aspect to Mars so it seems to be his sun is like Jupiter-Mars, but I see it as you are saying it is not in the latest post but that it is in your reply to Lance.

[James Condor]

I think I might have just now understood. But I might have to think the light effect is quite relevant.

[Jim Eshelman]

Let's take a simpler case - just Sagittarius, so there is only one dignified planet involved.

Sun in Sagittarius means (one way of saying it) that the ego-center identifies itself with ideas we call Jupiter. Now, Jupiter has a basic meaning that is universal, but it expresses itself differently in each person (given all the other conditions of their chart, environment, infantile and childhood patterning, physiology, and more).

Knowing that the Sagittarian is going to identify with this root psychological principle we call "Jupiter," we can ask ourselves: "And how does this principle specifically work out in this individual's life?" For example, if we express the Jupiter root idea as "identifying with what is highest and best," then this part is consistent with everyone, but for a particular person we have to ask, "And what, exactly, do you think is highest and best?" For some people, it is a spiritual ideal. For some, it is to have more money and greater social standing. (There are innumerable other examples, of course, but I intentionally picked two that are often considered somewhat opposite each other.) Depending on what the person regards as "highest and best," that's what they will pursue.

From the horoscope, we can look at Jupiter's aspects and learn something about this process. We probably won't learn their highest values - that would be reflected more in the whole chart, and especially the personal points - but we can learn such things as how the individual carries out this Jupiter pursuit. For example, with Venus aspects strongest, they would value social connections the most; with Mars aspects strongest, they would take what they wanted by some form of conquering; with Saturn, they would pursue a patient, hard-working, "earn as you go" route; and so on.

This applies to other signs, too, of course. A Taurus or Libra has the Venus archetype very strong. One might say that love and other relationships matter a great deal to them. But h9ow is Venus configured? Will they be lucky or unlucky in love? This difference goes a long way to saying what their quality of life will be like.

Does that help?

[Jim Eshelman]

So said person is very Jupiter oriented natally because of luminary signs, and his Jupiter is in aspect with Mars, so Mars-Jupiter. Jupiter, in his case is in aspect to Mars so it seems to be his sun is like Jupiter-Mars, but I see it as you are saying it is not in the latest post but that it is in your reply to Lance.

(I saw this and the one after it only after I'd posted my last answer.)

No, I would not say his Sun is like Mars-Jupiter. We have to split that apart. I would say that his Sun is like Jupiter (more specifically, his ego-center is identified with the Jupiter essence), and his Jupiter behaves in a martial way.

[James Condor]

Very good, yes I understand